Talk:East London line

Early Rollingstock

I think it would be a good to say something about the early locos and rollingstock that worked this line, such as The Terriers, The D1s, and later the Buckjumpers. To this end I've just added a little mention of the famous Terriers (after all Stroudley designed them specifically for London suburban work). Would anyone like to add more, perhaps about Stroudley's coachs, or the various other locos that worked the line in its steam days? Skekayuk 11:00, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Wapping and Rotherhithe

I just received this email from the ELLE mailing list, so have amended the comment about these two stations in the section Proposed Extensions.

Subject: Wapping and Rotherhithe
From: 	<admin@ellp.co.uk> 
Date: 	Wed, August 18, 2004 14:57 
To: 	Owen Blacker 
Priority: 	Normal 
Mailer: 	Microsoft CDO for Windows 2000  

Dear Owen

The Mayor of London has formally announced that the stations at both Wapping
and Rotherhithe that have been classed as being 'under review' will now
remain open when phase one of the project is delivered in June 2010.

It has also been confirmed that responsibility for delivering this project
will be transferred from the Strategic Rail Authority to Transport for
London in the autumn.

Yours

Peter
 
 
 
Peter Boxell
Head of communications
East London Line Project

— OwenBlacker 14:08, Aug 18, 2004 (UTC)

East London Railway

There are a large number of references to the East London Railway in other articles. There was, however no article as such. This is one of the penalties of writing articles about present-day situations - ie the East London Line - and then putting in its history. Like many early joint railways (which this one undoubtedly was since it was owned by six mainline/suburban railway companies), this began as a steam-operated line giving its owners access to each others' lines by-passing London. I have therefore written an article giving much of the information shown under 'History' here. Peter Shearan 10:49, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Nice work, but can you put a link in East London Railway to the East London Line somewhere? Frankie Roberto

Opening Date?!

Intro to the article claims -

Its history is connected with that of six other railway companies since its opening in 1865.

Very next line -

The ELR was originally opened in 1869,

And yet none of the stations appear to have opened until 1884.

What's the truth here?

Extension completion update (January 4 2006)

From admin@ellp.co.uk Wed Jan  4 16:51:11 2006
From: admin@ellp.co.uk
Return-Path: <admin@ellp.co.uk>
To: XXXXXX@XXXXXX.XXXXXX
Envelope-To: XXXXXX@XXXXXX.XXXXXX
Message-ID: <05dc01c6114f$01c60100$1942140a@shrgb.hbxgb.win2003.hostway>
X-Mailer: Microsoft CDO for Windows 2000
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 16:50:45 -0000
Delivery-date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 16:51:11 +0000
Subject: East London Line 4 Jan 06

Dear Owen

As we enter 2006, the project continues at pace.  The project remains on
schedule to be delivered by June 2010 in accordance with Olympic
documentation.

Construction:

Repair and replacement of 21 bridges along the Kingsland Viaduct began in
May 2005 and remains on schedule to finish in the autumn of 2006.

Status of contracts:

Bids for the £500M main works contract will be returned to the project on 31
March 2006.  Once evaluation has taken place, the successful bidder is
likely to be announced in the summer of 2006 and begin work in autumn 2006.

Proposals from four train manufacturers arrived today and will be evaluated
to determine who will be chosen to provide Rolling Stock for the operational
railway.  A decision will be made at Easter 2006.

More specific details are available on the project website at www.ellp.co.uk

Yours

Peter Boxell
Head of stakeholder Management
East London Line Project

ellp@tfl.gov.uk
0800 XXXXXXX

15 Bonhill Street
London EC2A 4DN

ELLP\East London Line Extension

Hi, just to say i created articles on Shoreditch High Street station, Haggerston station and Hoxton station but they need improvement. This is in preperation as they are now under construction or at least soon will be, i think. Anyway, i have used station instead of tube station or railway station as it is unclear whether this will actually be part of the London Underground or National Rail due to stock etc. Simply south 14:36, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

It definitely will not be part of the Underground. Mrsteviec 15:55, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's clear at this stage whether the line will be branded as part of the Underground. Have you any evidence one way or the other? I expect that it will be branded in the same way as the North London Line (currently Silverlink) that TFL is going to take over soon. But we don't exactly know how AFAIK. BTW I've noticed some new bridges up along the viaduct now, so work is well underway. Trious 12:54, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

It is totally clear. It will be managed by London Rail, not London Underground and will use mainline rolling stock. Read the docs available on the TfL/GLA websites. They have not shouted from the rooftops that the line will be converted to heavy rail as many people will perceive this as less good than an "Underground" service, particularly folks in south London who beleive "the tube is coming". House prices increase more when there is a tube station than a rail station, even if the rail service is quicker or more frequent. Mrsteviec 14:57, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

If it is overground and not underground, does this mean goodbye ELL? (btw what does AFAIK mean?) Simply south 15:25, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Hmm well I've just looked into this, and it seems from here [1] that it will be branded with the LU roundel but with the word "Rail" on the blue bit. But unless we have any concrete statement by TfL about this, I'm not sure we should mention it. (I'm sure people will think of it as an Underground line though - as they'll see the roundel and will think no more about it...) (AFAIK="as far as i know") Trious 17:23, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

All TfL divisions use the roundel now, despite not being part of the Underground, even the Public Carriage Office. Mrsteviec 18:59, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Well I think that if the London Rail roundel is used, in red and blue, then to the average man/woman on the street, these stations will be called "Undergound" stations. That's all I meant. However, if we don't categorise the new stations as Underground Stations, what will happen to the old ELL stations? Maybe we should make a new category for London Rail stations, and put the new ELL stations in, the NLL stations etc, and then move Rotherhithe, Wapping, etc to this category when the extention opens.Trious 21:12, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

That's not red and blue, that is brown and blue, the colour combination used by London Rail on its version of the Roundel. personally I think that just leaving it as station would be fine, we only need to make the distinction when there are two stations of the same name, eg West Hampstead MrWeeble Talk Brit tv 22:33, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I would leave the existing stations as they are now. We are talking about something that is due to open in 2010. Mrsteviec 06:21, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I just found an interesting new brochure [2] - it has some pics of the new bridge to be built over the canal. I liked the old one personally. Trious 17:27, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I have taken the plunge and changed the wording concerning the roundel. I think it always was clear that it would not be a true underground symbol. I have described it as best I can (if you can do better ...). I know we have not had a definite statement but I think we can treat the various TfL commisioned artists drawings of the new stations as sufficient evidence of this.--Pedantic of Purley 17:05, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I think that the colour isn't supposed to be like the current East London Line colour, but it's a new colour for London Rail to be used on the North London Line, etc, too.Trious 23:23, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

BBC news (see below, as in whovever posted Privatisation) seems to say that the East London Line is the first Underground Line to be privatised. So i am assuming they are saying that this will be still a London Underground line and not National Rail\Overground Simply south 13:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

The free newspaper that Londoners get (called "The Londoner", an original title I think you'll agree) has a story in the latest edition stating "Hackney to get its first tube station", going on to describe the basics of the northern extension to the ELL. I think this is reasonably conclusive that the East London Line is staying as part of London Underground. As speculation, could it be that London Rail are responsible for getting the extension ready to avoid London Underground "paying" for it? [3] Hammersfan 24/05/06, 22.15 BST

I'd guess that the ELL extention will be branded "London Rail", but using the similar roundel to the LU, so most people won't notice or appreciate the difference, and TfL etc will probably try to blur the difference anyway. Trious 10:59, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

To jump into this debate at a late stage, I'd like to say that there is absolutely no "official" confusion over who will run the ELL upon completion - it will NOT be London Underground. BBC News is a poor source of information on this topic, as they consistently get the facts wrong - for example, the previously-mentioned story on the alleged leaked memo showing that the ELL would be closed for two years was not a "scoop" at all and was not even news - it had been in the public domain for months beforehand.

Upon completion, the entire ELL will be run as part of TfL's North London Railway concession, managed by their London Rail division, as demonstrated in this press release. The track will be maintained by Network Rail, and the only involvement London Underground will have with the line is management of the ELL platforms at the interchange stations of Whitechapel and Canada Water. They will not be involved in anything to do with the rest of the line.

The use of the term "tube station" in The Londoner is nothing more than a marketing simplification to avoid the long-winded explanation given above. --Dave A 12:10, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

LU will continue to control signals and power between Dalston and New Cross/New Cross Gate upon reopening as this section will not become part of the National Rail (or Network rail) systems. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.87.65 (talk) 20:01, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Privatisation

interesting news, but I'm not sure of accuracy, so don't treat it as gospel... 193.62.111.10 09:41, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Interesting stuff... I don't understand why they'd need to shut the entire line though, given that the work would be done at the far ends? -- ChrisO 10:02, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I had already always assumed that once it became a NR line it would be franchised out, like all the others. Interesting that it will join the North London Line franchise though, definately suggests a move to orbirail MrWeeble Talk Brit tv 10:08, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

The closure of the entire line is needed to upgrade signaling to NR standards. I think they also need to lay new track and change the electrification from four rail to three (with the return current passing through the running rails). Wilmot1 17:45, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

NLL: along or parallel?

The article currently says:

In phase 2, the line will be extended to run parallel to the North London Line, going through Canonbury and terminating at Highbury & Islington'

I think this is wrong Every piece of literature I can find says "along", not "parallel", and some of the proposed eventual service patterns imply the existing NLL track will be used. --88.110.189.21

I can't see how it could possibly run parallel to the NLL, considering it's a two-line track in a rather confined space! -- ChrisO 13:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

There's an intermediate; some extra track may need to be constructed to allow overtaking of freight trains. Some parts are already three-track; these parts may need to be extended or a fourth track added along others. However, in either case, ELL trains will still share with NLL services. --Dave A 15:29, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Northern City Line

It will become the first-ever line to "secede" from the London Underground

what about the Northern City Line? Morwen - Talk 10:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed -will change article slightlySurfermoon 11:14, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

The Londoner

I'm going to take a guess that most of the editors here are Londoners, in which case you might get that paper from the mayor. Its got a double page spread towards the middle about the East London Line. Just letting you know. RHB 20:55, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Closure Date

The article says the ELL will close from 22 December 2007, and the linked PDF confirms this. But the posters in Canada Water Tube station say it closes from 23 December, not 22. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.240.75.194 (talk) 10:33, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

This has caused confusion elsewhere too!!! If I recall correctly the last train will run on 22nd December and the 23rd will be thee first day with no trains!! Wilmot1 17:36, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Name literally

Literally, when was the ELL given its modern name? What specific year? was it 1988? Simply south

Leaflets and links

A leaflet on the forthcoming closure and upgrade is presently (April 2007) available from stations on the ELL.

The links to the "official" pages do not work. Jackiespeel 18:06, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Future of the ELL

According to today's thelondonpaper the ELL is going to be incorporated into a "London Overground" along with the North London Line. Jackiespeel 18:24, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

This is also my understanding, If you read anything produced by BBCJV [Balfor Beety Corillian Joint Venture] (East London Line Project team) this seems to confirm. SkippyUK 12:32, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Wapping, Rotherhithe Short Platforms and Canada Water

The following text from the main article does not sound correct...

"Because of an inability to extend the platforms at the existing Wapping and Rotherhithe stations and make them fully compliant with current rail safety regulations, it was thought that they would be closed, but on 18 August 2004 Ken Livingstone, Mayor of London, announced that both stations will remain open, at least when Phase 1 of the project opens by June 2010."

AFAIK the problem is the width of these platforms, the restricted access from the steps, and the lack of secondary exit - even for emergency use. Length is not a problem, not at all. I say this because when there were through services longer trains than now were run. Plus all stations except Canada Water have unused sections of platforms which can be made available for longer trains. The real problem (AIUI) is that the newest station (Canada Water) was built to only accept 4 car trains. Given that the new trains will be longer than the present trains so this will be a very serious capacity constraint. Since Canada Water is such an important interchange station so unless it is going to be lengthened during the closure (not something I've heard being proposed) so potentially it will seriously restrict future train operations.

btw, according to something I read extra emergency exits *are* to be installed at Wapping (using a former entrance which was closed) and at Rotherhithe (using a former smoke ventilation air duct from when steam freight trains used the line). Alas, I do not recall where I read this, otherwise I'd post a link.

In the meantime this discussion thread (which spreads over 2 pages) might be of interest.

http://groups.google.com/group/uk.transport.london/browse_thread/thread/32c5dc896838fddd/0e1b78f28cf34418?lnk=raot#0e1b78f28cf34418

Citytransport.info (talk) 00:04, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Updating the articles

I'm slightly concerned that the articles haven't been updated. It needs to be done pretty soon. Oh, and merry Christmas. Traintoots (talk) 17:10, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

I think this article should be moved to East London Railway and should be written in the style of:

The East London Railway is a railway currently under construction in London, England and due to open in 2010. The railway is effectively an extension of the East London line of the London Underground which closed on 22 December 2007 and ceased to form part of the Underground as of that date. Once complete, the East London Railway will form a component of the London Overground concession of the National Rail network. The railway was originally opened in 1869 as the East London Railway and runs under the Thames through the Thames Tunnel, opened in 1843.

This may not be the exact wording, just indicative. My thinking is that the East London line has ceased to exist and what exists now is the East London Railway under construction. Naturally the renamed article will contain all the history both during the LU period and before. MRSC • Talk 19:37, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Thinking of ELR as an "extension" of ELL probably isn't a good idea. It would make more sense IMO to think of LU's "ELL" as a service operated on the tracks of the "ELR", and that the "ELR" is being extended. I use the quotes, as I prefer the term "Railway" to refer to original companies - in this case, an "East London Railway company" formed for the building of the line, probably owned mostly by the larger companies that operated along it. I also consider here that we have a significant proportion of our articles about physical railways (as opposed to the railway companies or modern service patterns) are titled with "Line" (capital L) rather than "Railway" - e.g. Marston Vale Line, Ebbw Valley Line, Cross-City Line, etc. which suggests to me that "Railway" would not necessarily be an entirely suitable suffix. Of course, given that LUL referred to this as the "East London line" (lower-case l), it may not be entirely unsuitable either. Tentatively opposing the move, though recommend capitalising the L in "Line" to match our practice with other parts of the rail network to which it will then belong, as opposed to that of our London Underground line articles. 90.203.45.214 (talk) 20:00, 26 December 2007 (UTC)