Talk:Pizza

Help

I made the new pizza template, but someone needs to add some more topics to it. Also, I think the article is cramped and has too many pictures -the problem is that I can't decide which to take out and how to position each.

Also, please add the pizza template to any pizza related article -it's tedious, but I don't know how to properly use bots. User:AtmanDave 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Pizza pie?

Pizza pie? Who calls pizza that? 121.45.46.156 09:34, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

"When the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie, That's Amore." — VulcanOfWalden 11:33, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

So one person called it pizza pie then :-) Wouldn't say it's in standard usage Stjarna 14:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

It's the standard term for a unit of pizza, besides the word "pizza" itself. Restaurants use it frequently; it helps distinguish a slice from a whole pizza. besides, that's what a pizza is: a pie made with sauce and cheese.

24.13.55.149 21:59, 30 July 2007 (UTC) It's not a pie, a pie is a closed pastry.

'pie' is the common term used by pizza makers, at least in the chains I've worked in. A "Crew pie" for example, is a pizza cooked for the crew to eat (or cooked by mistake, and designated as eatable by the manager)

• "Pizza pie" is never used in British English - in the UK a pie is an entirely different kind of dish. Shoebill2 22:21, 5 August 2007 (UTC).

• I agree, pizza pie isn't used in British English. Here the whole thing is a pizza and a slice is... a slice. Liam Markham 14:18, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. In the States pizza is routinely referred to as a "pie"--particularly among pizza makers but also among a number of "civilians" (e.g. "nice pie!" after you open the pizza delivery box and are pleased with what you see). When I made pizzas for a few years in high school at a restaurant we always referred to a "large pie" or "four pies in the top oven," etc. Unfortunately at the place I worked at we were rarely entitled to "crew pies." Damn you (name of restaurant redacted)! In the U.S. we also have regular ole' pies and somehow usually avoid confusion--but only because of years of practice.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 05:46, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

• The Pie, a pizzeria in Salt Lake City where referring to the entire pizza as a "pie" is central to their marketing. The Pie is well-known in the Salt Lake valley, particularly among University of Utah students, for its very large pizzas which are so heavily laden with cheese and toppings that it is impractical to eat it with your hands. Mmm... RobertJWalker | Talk 22:06, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Pizza pie is archaic or old-fashioned, but it is still used.Cameron Nedland 18:04, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm from NY and the only time i've ever heard it is when i'm at a pizza place and the workers use that term. "Normal" people don't use it. The term may have been popular at some point but not anymore.President Elect (talk) 12:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not archaic. I'm from NY and still use it regularly. "I'll have a large pie with a pitcher of Pepsi..."

Dessert Pizzas

Copying here the content I removed :

Another up and coming type of "pizza" is "Fruit Pizza." This is a dish commonly served as a dessert. Instead of pizza dough you use cookie dough to make a giant cookie. On top of this base you spread whipped cream, a type of custard, or cream cheese that takes place of the sauce. You then cover the top with your choice fruits, refrigerate and eat. This is a simple easy to make dessert that is just on of the hundreds of varieties of pizza.:

The reason I pulled this out of the pizza styles section is that it is a MUCH bigger stretch of the definition of pizza than anything else in that section. It does not involve pizza dough, does not involve cheese or tomato sauce, and is not even baked. By the definition at the top of the page, this is not a pizza at all.

Should there be a separate section for the bizarre not-quite-pizzas? Like this sort of fruit concoction, or various kinds of chocolate pizza? (I've seen some where the 'crust' is chocolate and some where the crust is bread/pastry and chocolate is spread over top.) AmethystPhoenix 00:35, 20 June 2007 (UTC) pizza is delicios

It did exist when pizza was introduced to Hong Kong in the early 1980s. Most HK Chinese could not tolerate the smell of any type of cheese back then (not even processed cheese or very mild cheddar, let alone mozzarella) so ingenious restaurateurs devised a pizza recipe using fresh fruits in place of tomatoes and other toppings, and fresh whipped cream in place of cheese. It was marketed as pizza. However, at the time of my earliest childhood memory (which is from the mid to late 1980s) pizza and common cheeses seemed to have been accepted en masse and I couldn't recall many incidents where people made a fuss out of cheese smells. --JNZ 00:13, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I've had a pizza that had no tomato sauce, and didn't use pizza sauce (I don't think... It was years ago and I was about... 6. That place is closed). But there was no fruit on it, and it was baked. It was really good, too. Scott fakename 21:47, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Cheddar on Pepperoni Pizza

In my entire life, I have never encountered cheddar cheese on an American pizza. I have heard some diabolical rumors that this odious practice can be found in some "gourmet" pizza chains or in places where people obviously have no understanding of pizza. Nevertheless, a pepperoni pizza generally refers to a New York-style pizza with pepperoni on top. I want to change this so no one gets the impression that we as a people have devolved into abject savages. If anyone can confirm that in fact cheddar cheese is used on "pepperoni pizza" in any significant region of the US, please respond so that we can declare an immediate state of emergency. I will wait for comments before removing the reference to cheddar cheese. (Incidentally, I have no problem with cheddar cheese, but for the love of all that is sacred, it does not belong on pizza, and until reading this I was able to sleep soundly under the impression that pizzas were, indeed, fairly safe from the Philistines.) Quag7 15:02, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

• Hmm - I'm not sure you can have it both ways really - if you are a true pizza officionado then there are only 2 pizzas - the marinara and the margherita - and they are only true pizzas if they are made they way they make them in Naples. Everything else, including pepperoni, is the "odious" work of "philistines! ;-) So, if you are willing to tolerate pepperoni on a pizza, you may have to accept cheddar or even bananas as well! Unfortunately I personally don't know if cheddar is regularly added to pepperoni pizza but I hope someone can clarify this issue for you. Shoebill2 20:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Those were only proto-pizzas, sort of the homo erectus of pizzas. The ANSI standard pizza is New York Style, with pepperoni. I have seen cheddar on a pizza, but not with pepperoni. I've seen it on a "cheeseburger pizza", with cheddar and ground beef. Now anchovies on a pizza, that's a different matter. I have to leave the room if I smell an anchovy pizza.---- RLent (talk) 17:54, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

They are not "proto pizzas" they are current and the margherita continues to be made all over the world (it's probably the most popular pizza in the world!) and every pizzeria in Naples serves the Marinara. A "proto pizza" would be something like foccacia (see history of pizza). ANSI (American National Standards Institute) is not really qualified to state standards for pizzas made outside of the US! See protected designation of origin for the Neapolitan pizza standards Shoebill2 (talk) 17:20, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, in all my years, the only times I've ever had cheddar on a pizza were some of the "five-cheese"-type frozen pizzas, where the manufacturer will stretch more expensive Italian cheeses (mozzarella, provolone, Romano and Parmesan)with some cheap white cheese that somewhat resembles cheddar. But never from a real pizza place. And living in Jersey there's no shortage of good pizza places. So, I say remove the bit about cheddar on pepperoni pizzas. oknazevad 19:22, 16 August 2007 (UTC) P.S. I don't eat those frozens anymore, either.

Round Table, which is as pizza as you can get in California, includes cheddar on some of their pizzas. I don't think cheddar in a cheese mix is necessarily that evil. Jtdunlop (talk)

We have a company Pizza Works in Melbourne, Australia who sells lots of Pizza varieties including Chocolate & Icecream (http://pizzaworks.com.au/menu_dessert.html). It doesn't actually mention the icecream on this page, but I assure you if you buy Pizza from there, they will certainly give you icecream for it. (talk) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.2.85.242 (talk) 09:37, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Marinara

In this article it says that pizza marinara has just the sauce, oregano and things. I'm assuming it's called pizza marinara as it has just the marinara sauce, but in the sauce article it says calling just the tomato sauce marinara is an American-Italian thing and that in Italy, marinara includes seafood (I'm assuming it's etymologically related to marine). Does anyone have any idea which is correct? Liam Markham 14:50, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

• The traditional Neapolitan pizza marinara has a topping of tomato, garlic, oregano, extra virgin olive oil and usually basil. It is called "marinara" not becaue it contains any seafood but because it is the food the Neapolitan fishermen ate when they returned from fishing trips in the bay of Naples. See the "history of Pizza" article for more on this. In Naples there isn't really pizza "sauce" meaning a prepared sauce with herbs spices or seasoning - they sinply use pure san marzano tomatos and any additonal ingredients like oregano or garlic are added as toppings. Outside of Naples and in other countries, "marinara" is sometimes used to describe certain seafood pizzas. Unfortunately I do not know what is meant by "marinara sauce" in the section on pepperoni pizza. Perhaps the person who contributed that bit could help us out here.Shoebill2 16:21, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Formatting issues

With regard to the changes made by "can't sleep, clown will eat me" on Sept 7. Wouldn't it be better to fix the formatting problems rather than simply revert all the edits that have improved the article - you've re-established all the repetitions, picture clutter and flow problems that existed before. At least let me know what the formatting issues are so I can fix them. Shoebill2 09:34, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I have now reverted the page back to how it was before "can't sleep, clown will eat me" reverted it on Sep 7. I appreciate that there are formatting issues but the appropriate response is not to revert the page but to correct the formatting issues. Please see the Wikipedia Help page on reverting which states among other things that:

• If you feel the edit is unsatisfactory, improve it rather than simply reverting or deleting it.
• Reverting is used primarily for fighting vandalism, or anything very similar to the effects of vandalism.
• Do not revert good faith edits. In other words, try to consider the editor "on the other end." If what one is attempting is a positive contribution to Wikipedia, a revert of those contributions is inappropriate
• Generally there are misconceptions that problematic sections of an article or recent changes are the reasons for reverting or deletion. If they contain valid information, these texts should simply be edited and improved accordingly. Reverting is not a decision which should be taken lightly.
• Do not revert changes simply because someone makes an edit you consider problematic, biased, or inaccurate. Improve the edit, rather than reverting it.

I think all these points are relevant in this case because many useful improvements to the piece were removed by "can't sleep, clown will eat me"s reversion. I politely ask you to fix the formatting problems rather than simply revert it again. if you don't want to do that or haven't got the time then please list the formatting problems here and I'll be happy to have a go at fixing the myself. If anyone else knows what the problems are, your help would be greatly appreciated. I apologise to everyone for any formatting problems I've caused - I'm not hugely computer literate but I do know some useful things about pizza and I think it is better to make a stumbling contribution to Wikipedia than to leave out useful contributions because you might make a formatting error. Shoebill2 10:09, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

The main problem with the formatting seems to be that there were just too many pictures and templates trying to squeeze into too small a space. I've reduced the size of the pictures, and removed one, which helps a bit. I also suggest getting rid of some of the bulleted lists and replacing them with prose where possible, as bulleted lists don't work too well with pictures - each bullet point is kept to the same width, whihc means large white spaces if the picture it's trying to accommodate is not as tall as the paragraph. Iain99 10:27, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi Iain - thanks for your help. So, I guess the main problem area would be "pizza styles" where there is the combination of bulleted lists and pictures. Would it be within the rules to simply remove the bullet points and list the different pizzas as separate paragraphs? Shoebill2 11:21, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Where the individual bullet points are valid paragraphs themselves, yes, the bullets can just be removed, and I've done this. Where the individual points are fragments of sentences (eg "Pizza Romana (in Naples): tomato, mozzarella, anchovies, oregano, oil") then it's best to rewrite the section as proper sentences and paragraphs. I've had a stab at doing this for some of the sections, but I'm not really the best person to be rewriting articles about pizza, as I know little about it beyond that I don't like it very much. ;-) Perhaps you could have a go at finishing it off? Best, Iain99 13:33, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

It looks much better - I will try to work through it very soon - thanks. Shoebill2 15:45, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Problem with styles

I'm not sure I want to tackle this but...

The section is a mess, and completely disorganized and full of junk for a subject as important as American-style pizza. Possibly the American pizza should get carved out for its own article, and the main article could be a global overview that concentrates on pizza history and traditional styles.

The only valid pizza styles I see there are: New York, Chicago (deep dish), and California/gourmet. Some of these others just happen to be how they make pizza somewhere, but aren't a real defined style, at most a regional variation. New Haven-style pizza? I don't buy it. If it's true, not notable. Chicago thin crust? Not a defined notable style. St. Louis-style pizza? Not notable.

Many things in the list aren't a style of pizza but a kind of pizza - Greek Pizza, Vermont Pizza, Hawaiian, Grilled. At that level we have 20-50 equally important popular kinds - meat lovers, Indian pizza, barbecue pizza, Mexican pizza, vegetarian, garden....

There are regional variations all over the world. Japanese pizza is very interesting.

The list of ingredients is odd. It doesn't list the common ones, but lists some very questionable ones. Anchovies, egg, pineapple, chucken, shellfish (claims)- yes, obviously. Banana, coconut, sauerkraut, eggplant, kimchi, couscous? - prove it with a citation, and show that it's not just a strange novetly. Lamb, fish, and shellfish, Moroccan lamb, shawarma or chicken tikka masala, curry and Thai sweet chili - yes, for novelty pizzas, but if you're going to talk about them you need sources and context. Pizzas can also be made without meat for vegetarians, and without cheese for vegans (not an accurate statement). Breakfast pizzas are topped with ingredients such as scrambled eggs (source, please). "Supreme" pizzas typically include a thick layer of many different toppings. (not a good description, and not a universal term)

And what to make of French Bread pizza, bagel pizza, and (shudder) English Muffin pizza? These are just different inferior crusts. There are some better versions if you want to start talking like that - focaccia-based pizza, flatbread. And if you start getting into dough styles, there's sourdough, whole wheat, cornmeal, flavored doughs to start....

I think the first issue is we have to break this long list into logical sections based on: (1) different broad regional styles - New York, Chicago, California, and that's probably it; (2) local variations; (4) toppings - common, unusual, and specific combinations (e.g. Hawaiian); (5) novelty / ethnic pizzas - e.g. thai, Indian. Then we should start insisting on sources, eliminating stuff if it gets challenged and there's no good source, and not let people add their favorite kind of pizza or make statements about stuff unless they can source it to an article. I wouldn't worry about the pictures. They'll fall into place once the sections are organized. Wikidemo 14:26, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I would like to see a cite for Vermont Pizza. Mikelieman 01:15, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Grilled pizza

Can we please get a reference for the claim, "Grilled pizza, invented in Providence, Rhode Island...". I first had grilled pizza rustica in Italy in 1943. (Once again we have a food article where someone claims their hometown, the first place they saw something, is the home of that food.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.165.188.30 (talk) 00:02, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Australian Pizza

The section on Australian Pizza has now been deleted twice by "can't sleep, clown will eat me", the first time stating that it is "unsourced" and the second time not giving a specific reason. For the second time I must refer this member to the rules on reverting:

• If you feel the edit is unsatisfactory, improve it rather than simply reverting or deleting it.
• Reverting is used primarily for fighting vandalism, or anything very similar to the effects of vandalism.
• Do not revert good faith edits. In other words, try to consider the editor "on the other end." If what one is attempting is a positive contribution to Wikipedia, a revert of those contributions is inappropriate
• Generally there are misconceptions that problematic sections of an article or recent changes are the reasons for reverting or deletion. If they contain valid information, these texts should simply be edited and improved accordingly. Reverting is not a decision which should be taken lightly.
• Do not revert changes simply because someone makes an edit you consider problematic, biased, or inaccurate. Improve the edit, rather than reverting it.

I don't really understand why this section needs to be sourced so urgently - the Australiana and Australian gourmet pizzas are not particularly obscure as any quick google of these terms will show - they are an established and easily verifiable variety. Here's an example of a pizza menu from an Australian pizzeria: http://www.dine-in.net/index.php?id=LeichCafeGioia "Pepperoni pizza" is not "sourced" on this page either, nor is "Pizza Romana" or "Frozen Pizza" - so i assume you don't have to provide a reference for every single noun in an article. If however, you feel it should be sourced then the correct procedure is to find the source and include it, not to delete a a good faith addition to the article. Shoebill2 10:33, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

As of 11/7/07 I do not see anything in the Australian Pizza section that is notable. All it seems to say is that pizza is popular in Australia, there exist normal "Italian" ingredients, and there are also gourmet pizzas. How is this quintessentially Australian that it requires being mentioned in a separate section? By this standard, we need a section for every other Western country in the world that has "normal" pizza consumption trends. I propose cutting the above-mentioned information in order to improve the quality of the article; we should mention exceptions to the norm rather than giving redundant descriptions. The section is extremely short, but I think the section is adding unneeded fluff to the article.

With that said, there are two points definitely worth keeping: that eggs/bacon is a popular pizza type and that kangaroo/emu/crocodile meat is used on some pizzas. We really need citations for these though. I am very skeptical of the notion that the "eggs/bacon" pizza is popular enough that it actually well-known as "Australiana" and is regarded as a quintessential Australian breakfast. If this is true, I would expect the average Australian resident to know what "Australiana" refers to and probably to have tried it once. I "googled" Australiana as suggested by the discussion posted above and I didn't get anything about pizza. Searching for "Australiana Pizza" only returns a few examples of pizza (which did contain eggs and bacon) but it gives no indication that this is a popular pizza (especially for breakfast) or has the universal name Australiana. This reminds me all too much of the fake "Vermont Pizza" entry that was added in September. I know kangaroo, emu, and crocodile meat are real foods on the market, but the reader who does not know this would probably take this part of the section to be a hoax. I think there should be a citation that shows that consumption of pizza with these meats is actually higher in Australia than in the rest of the world and that this was not added simply because those animals are Australian. 18.96.5.15 04:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Eggs and bacon are often added to food items in Australia, and this egg, bacon and cheese type of pizza is certainly often sold as "Aussie" http://www.hollywoodspizzacafe.com/content4.html, however it is not always universal. I am very, very skeptical about the vegemite and pineapple pizza - have never seen it, hope to never see it, think it should be referenced appropriately or deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.173.101.245 (talk) 00:00, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, a local pizzaria has a vegemite pizza on the menu. Any pizza ordered with 'the lot' will have a fried egg across the top of it. It's difficult to get a pizzaria pizza without tons of shredded ham on it. Ultimately though I don't think Australia has done as nearly much to distinguish its pizza as California has with gourmet, Chicago with deep dish, and New York with the crap they serve on limp unworkable wedges. Honestly I believe that the article would be more appropriately concise without the Aussie section. -- Cheers from Melbourne :) Jtdunlop (talk)

tomato sauce?

surely that should be tomato puree? 86.135.161.253 22:06, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

• I assume you are referring to the opening paragraph and it is a debatable point. Tomato purée is often used but so is a prepared tomato sauce with various herbs etc added. In Naples, the home of the pizza, neither is used - they use just peeled and pressed fresh tomatoes or chopped cherry tomatoes rather than a sauce or a purée. Shoebill2 10:50, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Chinese Myth Surrounding Pizza Invention

Among Chinese people, it is a very prevalent belief to mistaken pizza as Chinese in origin and brought back to Italy by Marco Polo based on green onion pancakes. Should we add this to this main article, or put it in the history article? --JNZ 22:54, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

• It does seem to be a well established myth but I don't think it should be on this page which is a description of pizza as it is now, it should be on the History of pizza page. Feel free to include it, if not I'll try to do it myself in a few days. Shoebill2 09:46, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Oops - just noticed it has already been added. Shoebill2 09:47, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

The dish is called "chinese pizza" in Europe (seen in Rome, Nice and Madrid), possibly in North America too. --NEMT 18:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Pizza Capricciosa ("Capricious Pizza"):

It doesn't so much mean "capricious" as it does "a bite of this a bite of that" •Jim62sch• 00:18, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Pan pizza

"Pan pizza" should be described, as well as its origin. Badagnani 07:53, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

"Wikipedia: The free encyclopedia anyone can edit." --NEMT (talk) 18:24, 22 November 2007 (UTC)