Talk:Barack Obama 2008 presidential primary campaign

Notes to admins

Note to admins who plan to speedy this article: with the Joe Biden dust-up yesterday, its pretty clear that the campaign have started; might as well report on it. — goethean ॐ 19:38, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

This article sole purpose is to promote Obama's potential campaign. Now as goetheanpointed out the following....

"That's already covered on the barack obama page. if you'd like to move that section here, discuss it at talk:barack obama"...

So, you should be consistent and follow your own advice.

Thanks 75.44.39.2 20:32, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Speedy Deletion Tag

This article does not clearly fit speedy deletion criteria and so as an administrator I removed it. If there is still a dispute about this page please add it to articles for deletion in order to see if there is a community consensus to delete. Please do not place the tag back. Thank you.--Jersey Devil 21:22, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Campaign Staff

Here is a comprehensive list of Obama's campaign staff. I'm unsure on how to incorporate this into the article or even if it is necessary information. - PoliticalJunkie 22:24, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I've added a bit and ref to this cite in. Wasted Time R (talk) 12:47, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Series

I've noticed in other Wikipedia articles that there are series/topical boxes in the upper right portion of some articles. Maybe one should be created to coordinate all articles connected with the 2008 presidential election? ~ Rollo44 05:11, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

At the bottom of the page, there's a template coordinating the main articles connected with the 2008 presidential election. - PoliticalJunkie 00:26, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Ahh. Thank you. I hadn't noticed that before. ~ Rollo44 16:55, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

"...another 20,000 Australians"

"If he's ginned up to fight the good fight in Iraq, I would suggest he calls up another 20,000 Australians and sends them to Iraq. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of empty rhetoric."
Actually, based on the populations of Australia and the United States and Obama's estimates of troop numbers, Australia would need to send another 8156 troops to match the US's contribution per capita.
301,142,000 Americans divided by 140,000 troops = 1 soldier per 2151 Americans. 20,555,300 Australians divided by 1400 troops = 1 soldier per 14682 Australians. 20,555,300/9556 would match the American ratio.
For the record, I don't support Bush, Howard, or the war in Iraq. - Gobeirne 15:05, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

i hear what ur saying. Aust is a major partner of the US in Iraq, and he's doesn't seem to know much. the number of troops is beyond aust capacity, and aust dont "call up" troops. i think obama's lack of partners knowledge should be reflected in the article Eevo 15:48, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

It's a rhetorical point and I doubt very much that Obama was *seriously* asking Howard to send more troops (Obama opposes the surge, anyway). Obama's response is meant to demonstrate the absurdity of Howard's claims, not actually spur Australian action. Note the preface and post script on the Obama statement: "If Prime Minister Howard truly believes what he says . . ." and "It's easy to talk tough when it's not your country or your troops making the sacrifices." · j e r s y k o talk · 15:58, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

and Howard's statement is ment to show the lack of realism in Obama's statement regardinf Iraq. Eevo 16:03, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

What? Obama's statement was after Howard's. It's perfectly clear what Howard was trying to say. Gobeirne is discussing Obama's response to Howard's attack, and that's what I'm discussing as well. My point is that statistical analyses like the one Gobeirne conducted are beside the point when Obama's response was meant to be rhetorical, not literal. · j e r s y k o talk · 16:08, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

• I agree, Obama wasn't being literal. I was just pointing out the relative sizes of the contribution of each country - Gobeirne 19:15, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Howard

I find Howard's decision to involve himself bizzare but has no comentator pointed out that Bush similarly made a (less direct) inference during the last Australian general election? Nil Einne

Didn't you know? The United States is allowed to interfere with the political process of other countries. :P ~ Rollo44 17:46, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

See Mark Latham, where it rates a mention. Slac speak up! 20:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

More to the point of editing the article for content, I lengthened the section header from "Howard incident" to "Incident with Australian Prime Minister John Howard" Howard is ambiguous and, for better or worse, the name John Howard probably doesn't ring many bells outside of Australia. I would actually think it was a basketball player for the Dallas Mavericks. Mykll42 07:36, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Good move, it's true Howard is completely unknown in America let alone the world. This wierd attack on Obama and the involvement in Iraq is propably his biggest claim to fame outside of Australia. Ecostaz 18:38, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Changed header to "Comments by" - it wasn't really an incident. But are we sure these comments are really worthy of being in this article? Tvoz | talk 23:52, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it should go. Mr. Howard will not even be voting in the election. Why should his opinions matter? They have probably been forgotten by now by 99% of American voters. If they heard of them in the first place. Steve Dufour 03:08, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Poll numbers

How about some polls that would show the placement of Obama for the nomination Ecostaz 21:49, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

There is a section entitled "2006 Opinion Polling", although the poll numbers are about a month old. - PoliticalJunkie 22:25, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I updated the section with the latest Gallup poll (2/11/07): Clinton 40%, Obama 21%. - PoliticalJunkie 17:10, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Shouldnt this new May poll info be updated on both this page and the intro of the Barak Obama page?:
In the latest Newsweek voter's Poll, Obama beats the leading Republicans by larger margins than any other Democrat.
Marcus, Mabry The Elephant in the Room. Newsweek, May 5, 2007. [1] 75.57.105.133 20:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Right now, we only have Democratic nomination polling, although general election polling should probably be included. - PoliticalJunkie 00:24, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

The anti-Hillary myspace ad.

I wonder about this section:

On March 5, 2007, a video mashup was posted on YouTube, mostly comprised of footage from Macintosh's famous 1984 commercial but with Hillary Clinton's face and words in place of Big Brother's. The clip received widespread coverage in the press and has been viewed over 1 million times as of March 21. Barack Obama's campaign has denied responsibility for the ad.

Does it need to be in the article? Also, the wording is POV. Stating that Obama's campaign "denied responsibity" is POV...there was never any evidence thery had anything to do with it. It became fodder for anti-Obama types to bash his clean image. —Gaff ^ταλκ 06:32, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

In Defence of Good ol' Johnny Howard...

Just so you know.. he doesn't hate Asians... as much. Just black people lol.

Campaign theme song?

Is it officially that Ben Harper song?—Wasabe3543 05:36, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure. During his entrance for his announcement speech, U2's "City of Blinding Lights" was playing. - PoliticalJunkie 18:36, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

state-by-state polling data on candidate pages

The same set of charts providing state-by-state polling data has recently been added to the articles about several presidential campaigns (Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008, John Edwards presidential campaign, 2008, Hillary Rodham Clinton presidential campaign, 2008). I propose that the detailed state-by-state comparisons remain at the main article, Opinion polling for the Democratic Party (United States) presidential primaries, 2008. Please discuss this proposed change at this centralized discussion. -Fagles 20:51, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

my.barackobama.com history

Since the history for the my.barackobama.com section was not merged into this one, it can be found here. Created and amended largely by User:Italiavivi, with a couple of edits by others. Hopefully this suffices for GFDL requirements. Mahalo. --Ali'i 14:10, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Re: Campaign Advisors

I know that it isn't common to include a section on campaign staff/advisors, but I think that in the light of recent developments (ie: Carl Rove, Harriet Miers, Michael Brown etc.) there is a growing concern over a candidate's ability to choose staffmembers. Some of these advisors are potential cabinet members should the candidate be elected. I am proposing the inclusion of prominent staff/advisors (and a short bio) to all candidates' campaign entries in order to help voters better understand each candidates' ability to judge character. I believe that attention is inordinately focussed on individual candidates, when in fact, the major influence on any new administration will be in the advisors surrounding the new president. Your input would be greatly appreciated. ----Rawkcuf. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rawkcuf (talk • contribs) 04:08, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, many of the 2008 presidential campaign articles have specific sections on campaign advisors and policy teams, including now this one. Wasted Time R (talk) 12:49, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Policy??

Is it just me, or does there seem to be gaping hole in these presidential campaign articles on what the candidates' plans are for?

It's almost as if Wikipedia's like a second rate news-coverage, with opinion polls and campaign support - honestly though, although this is interesting, so what? To be an informed voter, surely people need to know the details of proposals. Otherwise elections turn into beauty contests.

What do people think? I'm inclined to say that the absence of policy shows reflects the fact that people in the US media are plain stupid or don't want to inform others. I wouldn't want to say the same for people on Wikipedia though!

Surely what's needed too, is some comparative page, where candidates positions can be measured against one another. Wikidea 11:33, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

What you're missing is Political positions of Barack Obama; parallel articles exist for all of the major presidential candidates. A few months back someone tried to create a table-based comparison page that showed all the candidates' positions, but it suffered from being very oversimplistic and I think it got deleted. Wasted Time R (talk) 13:55, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I missed this! I keep hearing Hillary comment that Obama's health care plan leaves people uncovered, and then of course he says it doesn't, so it's probably true that it'd be hard to simplify things for a comparative graph. Makes it harder for voters though! Wikidea 20:17, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Ex-gay minister controversy

I was trying to find out who the ex-gay minister was that Obama has campaigning for him. It's been met with much criticism from the LGBT community and I'm a bit surprised it's not even mentioned. Benjiboi 16:32, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Found it - Donnie McClurkin. Benjiboi 16:42, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia: WikiProject United States presidential elections

File:Color.JPG

Editors of this article are invited to join Wikipedia: WikiProject United States presidential elections.--STX 04:14, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Mybarackobamaprofile.png

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If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 17:24, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Article not up to date

This article looks like it was heavily worked on earlier this year, then editors lost interest. The Muslim rumor thing is the least of it. Just off the top of my head, the article is lacking coverage of:

• Obama falling way behind in the polls, then rebounding in the wake of Hillary's bad Philadelphia debate, to the point where he's now ahead in some Iowa polls
• Focused criticism on Hillary, now a daily back-and-forth
• His debate performances, and mixed reviews thereof
• Assessment of his rallies, enthusiasm of supporters, etc.
• The Oprah endorsement and campaigning for him
• Criticism re using the anti-gay southern preacher

And I'm sure there's more I'm not thinking of right now. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:21, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, the "Muslim" rumor thing is now in, xferred from the article on it as a possible alternative to retention in the current AfD debate. Go ahead and fix the rest. ;-) Also the sentence saying opposition to him is mostly because he's a noob and suspected of being a Muslim needs work. Surely some people don't like his policies. And the table of endorsements should probably be positioned as an appendix. Andyvphil (talk) 02:00, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I've hidden the list of endorsements as has been done on several of the other campaign article. Also, on the "Muslim" rumor thing, take a gander at whisper campaign. I think it covers the multitude of different rumors and what not quite well. A whisper campaign is by it's very nature, a series of rumors, innuendos, etc, etc. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 02:18, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Can't agree, on two grounds. (1) whisper campaign speaks of "...the source of the rumors...". Note the singular, "source". In this case there is no reason to believe there is a singular source. And, (2) it's not all whispering. Martin didn't whisper, Insight didn't whisper (though they allege the Clintonistas did), Couric didn't whisper, etc., etc. I kept "whispering campaignS" in the section head and wouldn't mind having it in the section, but that's not even most of what we're talking about here. On the other hand, what you did with the endorsements works better than my suggestion. Andyvphil (talk) 02:30, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Wasted Time that there is a lot that needs updating and expanding in this article, but having a full-page section on "Opposition" that talks mainly about the Muslim rumor is giving undue weight to the rumor and is basically creating a troll-magnet "criticisms" section. The Muslim rumor is more of a media phenomenon than a "campaign development", and certainly isn't as important as "Fundraising" or "post-announcement development", with which it now has equivalent weighting. johnpseudo 15:54, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Sigh. Every story in the media the last few days: Obama's joint appearances with Oprah before large audiences, Obama's resurgent campaign. Every edit to this article the last few days: rumor, whisper, rumor, whisper. You folks are really and truly missing the boat. Wasted Time R (talk) 14:13, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

What part of "go ahead and fix the rest" didn't you understand? Andyvphil (talk) 14:33, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The "I'm already heavily involved with the Clinton, Giuliani, McCain, and Gravel articles and was hoping to not further extend myself" part ;-) Wasted Time R (talk) 15:30, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

What you're seeing is blowback from a POV-pushing AfD that was, as usual, a waste of time better spent on improving articles. But the way the media is handling the Muslim business is actually more interesting than Oprah or the horserace, IMHO. Andyvphil (talk) 11:37, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, from various peoples' edits and from copying/adapting material from other articles, most of the above is now covered. More could definitely be done, but at least most of the gaping holes are gone. Wasted Time R (talk) 02:44, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Muslim rumor section

From AndyvPhil edit summary re-adding the opposition section Got a dozen editors who disagree with you at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Barack_Obama_Muslim_rumor. Go there and speak up.

I think it's pretty nonsensical to think that either side of the AfD discussion would see fit to include a massive section on the Muslim rumor on the Obama campaign main article. We should either relegate the rumor to its own article so as to have enough space to include all relevant content or simply content ourselves with the small, properly-weighted section in the campaign article. Putting a half-page section on the rumor on the campaign's main page, with the same weight as the entire "fundraising" section or "post-announcement campaign developments" section, is entirely inappropriate. Are you suggesting that this rumor on its own is as important/notable as the entire issue of Obama presidential fundraising? johnpseudo 17:00, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

No, I have no opinion on that, but I reject any option that involves excluding relevant content about a notable subject on the grounds that there's no room on Wikipedia for it. And you are mistaken about at least part of the "deletion" side of the "Rumor" AfD. There are, as I said, multiple contributors to the AfD debate who have argued precisely for merging the material here. My response was that were that done the editors here would object to including that much content. Nonetheless, when one of the merge-here proponents (SouthernTexas) took up my challenge to show what such a merger would look like I found I did not disagree with his conclusion that it "fit well". (If the fundraising is more important some editor who is convinced of that can expand the treatment of that subject. That no editor has done that is a poor argument for artificially reducing the "rumors" material.) Therefor, and partly to demonstrate good faith, I worked a fair amount on the "rumors" material transcluded here by SouthernTexas. And I will certainly restore it in full measure if Barack Obama Muslim rumor is deleted. Andyvphil (talk) 03:45, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay- let's just hope that doesn't happen. johnpseudo 14:47, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Can we reduce the size of this section, now? johnpseudo 03:26, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, as I said, there were quite a few editors who wanted the material here, and I'd particularly prefer to have input from SouthernTexas, so I'd suggest not acting immediately on my say-so. But if they're not watching this page and don't weigh in... Sure, wait just a bit, then chop away. Despite its idiotic new title the material still exists (and is being developed further) and there's no need for a content fork. Andyvphil (talk) 08:50, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Re: "Uh, no. Read WP:POVFORK. You need a summary, not a tidbit". I'll concede that what I re-added might not have been a very good summary, but WP:POVFORK advises against duplicating content- something that we are doing a lot of right now. I've been working on a better summary - something I think should take only 1 paragraph instead of an entire page. johnpseudo 18:50, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Section structure

I've taken a stab at revising the section structure, to make it more flexible for additional material and more similar to that of the other 2008 presidential campaign articles. Alas, all the articles are somewhat different from each other, so there's no exact structure to match, but this is closer than what was there before. If people hate it, it can certainly be revised or backed out. Wasted Time R (talk) 04:31, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Info Box

Currently Candidate Photographs are being used in each candidates Info Box. There is a discussion on this topic at [[2]] if you have an input please discuss it there and refrain from changing the info box photo until that discussion reaches some type of consensus. This is nothing special to Barack Obama, it is applied to every 2008 presidential campaign page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rtr10 (talk • contribs) 20:50, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Disagree - see the discussion at the project page. Tvoz |talk 06:36, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

First black president

I took this sentence out of the intro:

If elected, Obama would become the first black U.S. president.

I think that there are several problems with it. For one thing WP is not a crystal ball. This alone prevents us from making statements about what might happen in the future, if I understand the policy correctly. Secondly, although in the USA most people would consider Senator Obama "black", some people would not and in Africa and other parts of the world he would not be considered "black." In the third place, let me get back to you in a minute after more research. Steve Dufour (talk) 03:57, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

The third reason is that probably some of the other presidents probably had black ancestors too, so they might be called "black" under the One drop rule. I have heard this said about President Buchanan, but couldn't find an online reference that said so. I think I read it in the book Before the Mayflower. Steve Dufour (talk) 04:11, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

WP:SENSE applies here. I could find 1,000 citations that would discuss him as the first African-American president if he gets elected. If you want to be pedantic and change that to "first person of noticeable color" instead, go ahead, but you'll just make the article look silly. If you want to say that his candidacy has no racial significance altogether, go ahead, but you'll just make the article look stupid. Wasted Time R (talk) 04:16, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you 100% that this is one of the greatest importances of Obama's campaign. I just think that we can not say so according to WP policy. After he is elected and people make note of this then we can. Steve Dufour (talk) 04:33, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

You're misunderstanding WP:CRYSTAL. It prohibits us saying "Barack Obama will become the first African-American president." It does not prohibit us from saying, "If he wins the 2008 election, Barack Obama will become the first African-American president." That's true statement, not a prediction, unless the extremely unlikely takes place and four people die or become incapacitated within the next year and Condi becomes president. Again, WP:SENSE applies here. Wasted Time R (talk) 04:44, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

To me this is exactly the type of statement that does not belong here by WP:CRYSTAL. Besides my other objections, people who check out this article are aware of this point already and are looking for details of the campaign -- not a general statement about its importance. Steve Dufour (talk) 04:49, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Fine. The main article says, "If elected, Obama would become the first black U.S. president.[105]" No problem. This article says anything at all, bad. I'm beyond caring. Maybe nasty aliens will land and conquer us weak earthlings and all these articles will go away. Wasted Time R (talk) 05:02, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Hillary's campaign article says: "No woman has ever been nominated by a major party to run for President in the history of U.S. presidential elections." I will try something like this as a compromise. Steve Dufour (talk) 06:03, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Steve, I completely disagree with your edit here and at Obama's main page. This has nothing to do with WP:CRYSTAL - nothing. Wasted has it right. We don't need a compromise because there is absolutely nothing wrong with saying that if elected he would become xyz - and it would be fine for Hillary as well. And as for your argument that some people don't consider him to be black, well, that's just ridiculous, and I see no reason why we have to bend over backwards for that kind of POV. I'm reinstating the article the way it was - we don't need a compromise on this, we need common sense. Tvoz |talk 06:41, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

No problem. I left my comments on the main Obama talk page. Steve Dufour (talk) 19:14, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

tweaked to "first African American U.S. president" per main article although I don't think it's a particularly necessary chan ge. Tvoz |talk 20:27, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

A fictional endorsement?

I've been reading Doonesbury lately with one of the characters, Alex Doonesbury, leanings towards Barack Obama and detesting the whole Muslim controversy as seen here: [3]. She used to have a Facebook account joining a One Million Strong Obama group before it was deactivated as the Facebook discussion ran its course for the strip. Should we count her as endorsement for Obama? Spongefan (talk) 02:42, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I think this could be worked into the article somehow. It would be an influencial endorsement, even if fictional. :-) Steve Dufour (talk) 17:50, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Newspaper endorsements

Should the endorsement's of newspaper be added in the endorsement section. I don't mean every newspaper, but only the big ones. ~Sasha Callahan _(Talk) 05:35, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I think so. Newspaper endorsements are often mentioned as being important. Steve Dufour (talk) 17:51, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

What about Governors? They also vote as superdelegates. --Aranae (talk) 04:50, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Merge

I ran across a merge tag on Barack Obama drug controversy suggesting the content be brought into this article. It looks like the request wasn't fully formed as there was no discussion area setup. Trying to get it started here. --StuffOfInterest (talk) 13:12, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

• Support. Not enough content to justify a separate article for what amounted to a two day flash in the news. --StuffOfInterest (talk) 13:12, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

• Support Merge. It seems to exist merely as a POV fork. Issue is barely noteworthy enough for inclusion in the campaign article, much less an article on its own. --Loonymonkey (talk) 17:50, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

• Support. I originally cleaned that page up (major cleanup), but nothing ever happened with the request for merge. Paisan30 (talk) 17:58, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Headline?

Is there a reason that the title is so unwieldy? Could this article be moved to Barack Obama's 2008 presidential campaign, or something similar, or is this a WP convention? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.134.14.55 (talk) 14:38, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

It's a convention, there are many articles titled in this way, see Category:United States presidential election, 2008 for some examples. Wasted Time R (talk) 14:44, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

First Black President?

Shouldn't the beginning of the article be changed to say that he would be the first person of "two or more races" elected as president since he is white too?71.174.200.210 (talk) 22:07, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

• What's your angle here? He's identified as "black" or "African-American" in reliable sources, not as "two or more races." All that matters is what is verifiable. Bellwether ^B_C 05:27, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Coalition of Change

During the debate Obama made an interesting statement about a "coalition of change" which would involve Democrats, Independents and Republicans. I feel that in as few words as possible this summarizes his campaign much as the phrase "Ron Paul Revolution" recaps that campaign. I'd like to see a section with this title and have it be given a prominent role as "Ron Paul Revolution" is given in Ron Paul's article.--STX 04:29, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Googling the phrase "Ron Paul Revolution" returns 544,000 hits, while Obama and "coalition of change" returns just one relevant link, a blog post. I think we would have to wait until the phrase actually caught on before featuring it so prominently. --Loonymonkey (talk) 00:14, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I actually misquoted it. It's Coalition for Change.--STX 04:25, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

False "Allegations" of being a muslim

I may be overreacting, but doesn't Allegations sound quite a bit like Accusations? To me that implies being a muslim is somethink bad. Just read the sentence "John was accused of being a christian." sounds a bit wrong, doesn't it? A bit like "John was accused of being a criminal." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.208.63.44 (talk) 11:10, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

The reference to false "allegations" of being a Muslim have been removed. Wrote in a bias/unfair way. As stated above it is wrote in a accusation manner rather then in a neutral fair way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.8.24.139 (talk) 22:43, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

You are not overreacting – and the language throughout is inappropriate (and 'allegations' is still in twice, and 'accusatatory', 'rumours','claims' - they all add up). Why use language like 'debunk'? It makes me wonder what people are really thinking. Gentle, formal language is appropriate here - seeing as Islam is merely a religion to a billion people, and NO kind of slur in itself (various intentions withstanding). Religions are benign entities, the language should suit - if we want it to that is. I'll have a go at softening, though I'd be amazed if it sticks. --Matt Lewis (talk) 19:32, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm just about to make an edit - it's quite a change in tone. Please all take it seriously and amend and improve it where it may need it. A straight revert wouldn't be helpful here I feel. --Matt Lewis (talk) 20:26, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for edit mess up! I've inserted the change. Is there a better place for this than under 'Effect of the Internet'? --Matt Lewis (talk) 20:39, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I was with you with the "these claims of him being muslim aren't slurs" idea, but you seem to have gone in a completely different direction with your edit. You've simply changed the section to be more ambiguous about Obama's faith and the false nature of the claims that were made. johnpseudo 21:01, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Johnpseudo. Those edits made the issue far less clear, not more clear (and in some cases actually create a false impression). For instance, saying that he was "accused of covering up his time in a madrassa" implies that he actually did spend time in a madrassa, and that the controversy is not that he was falsely accused of such whether he "covered it up." This is a variation of "when did you stop beating your wife." --Loonymonkey (talk) 21:13, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I knew it was going to have flaws, but I just don't get the revert. The section as it stands is gross - can't you improve what I had written? Most of it was surely better than what stood. We need to move forwards, or these things just get stuck for ages. I'll go for the last parag again and see if that sticks. Any ambiguity seems to have been at the start - there were lots of changes involved. --Matt Lewis (talk) 22:06, 29 January 2008 (UTC)#

What is weird about the first line is that it seems to be an excuse for where it's been placed - in a section on the internet. The article starts with this flaw - which ties it up. --Matt Lewis (talk) 22:13, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

How about moving it up to the bottom of Media coverage? --Matt Lewis (talk) 22:16, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I tried to post this once already, but oh well- the user making edits is in my opinion deleting with out adding in, and only deleting certain subject (but not much softening of language lol) so be ever vigilant folks. I will try to soften up the language a bit but I don't think large edits are helping the flow, info level, or pov. 66.220.110.83 (talk) 22:50, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

You're acting too quick - just relax and read what I've written. People round here revert like cowboys shooting cans. You people can change the odd line instead you know!!!! How else do we move forward? I'm softening it from the Muslims point of view, by the way. What do you mean by 'be vigilant' - that's twice you've had a go at me. I don't get it. Do you think I'm someone else?--Matt Lewis (talk) 23:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Where do you get "The idea of Obama being a Muslim developed a more astringent anti-Islamic tone when appearing..."? Source it, please. Secondly, the grammar is atrocious. Is it an "idea" developing a different tone, or is it the people spreading the rumor? johnpseudo 22:55, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you just improve that line? It wasn't that hard to understand - the emails and flyers took it to a new level. Astringent wasn't best word - but you can change the odd line, you know. My principle idea of removing the negative 'gutter press' tone I will pursue - as I find it gross to read. --Matt Lewis (talk) 23:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I noticed the first line's 'emails and the internet' wasn't covered in the citation 'from 2004' (it mentions them from a later date), so I re-wrote the line. I also rewrote the other line that was 'picked out' of my previous attempt - hopefully it's better. I've tried putting it in Media - it makes more sense in light of the email evidence being later on. Any good? It's mainly just the last 2 sentences that particularly offend me, but I've honestly think I've improved the rest too. --Matt Lewis (talk) 00:13, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I wonder if the sentence "Smears connecting Obama to Islamic extremism" is as clear is it could be? As I understand it - and the sources cited in connection with this sentence seem to confirm this - the claims made about Obama are that he had attended an Islamic school at a young age, and possibly (by implication) is, or had been in the past, a Muslim. This is not the same as linking him to *extremism*, simply to Islam. The intention behind these rumours may perhaps have been to imply that he could be an extremist, but that's conjecture. Has there actually been any suggestion in anything that might vaguely be described as mainstream media that he could, even potentially, have any links to extremism? (Ie not just on white nationalist sites, where I am sure there's all sorts of awful stuff). My concern is that the article may currently be based on an assumption that attending an Islamic school is inherently extremist, which it is not. However there may just be something I have missed. To make it clear, this is not an attempt to challenge the claim that the suggestions he was a Muslim are false (although I think "False claims connecting Obama . . ." might be better than "Smears").Hobson (talk) 00:38, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I should add that I appreciate there have been reports of e-mails which *do* accuse him of extremism, but this is a very different claim to the claim, or suggestions, which surfaced in mainstream media.Hobson (talk) 00:41, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

The line is covered in the citation at the end of the line - it's partly about someone called Andy Martin. It quotes; Martin raised all kinds of strange allegations about Obama but focused on him attempting to hide his Muslim past. "It may well be that his concealment is meant to endanger Israel," read Martin's statement. "His Muslim religion would obviously raise serious questions in many Jewish circles where Obama now enjoys support."

You certainly have to know what 'smear' means - and it's not yet Wiki-linked, thinking about it. It's always been hard to find the right wording with this, but all I can say is that this subject had an article all to itself for 3 months before it finally got deleted! At the root of it all are smears (with Insight smearing Clinton for allegedly planning to smear Obama etc). The madrassa part is a non-issue anyway (as CNN and Obama himself made clear) - but the Arabic name sounds loaded, and its unsurprisingly been used stir up conjecture, even on WP. It's all mud based on conjecture and inference, but it does need a short parag or two in the relevant articles (and no more IMO). This one covers the most, as it's about how it effected Obama specifically, and it needs to include those emails too (right-wing nutjobs aside, would those particular emails have occured on their own?). --Matt Lewis (talk) 01:17, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Running the numbers

I changed the percentages in Iowa and NH to the exact percentages quoted in the New York Times and used it as a source for both states - if 29.5% = 29 for Clinton in Iowa then we can't have 36.5 equalling 37 in NH for Obama. Tvoz |talk 01:22, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I favor including the decimal rather than rounding. It's more encyclopedic that way. --Loonymonkey (talk) 15:37, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Reagan Controversy

Does anyone have any information on the ongoing Reagan controversy they can add to the article? [14:18, 18 January 2008 24.3.20.5]

Meaningless to-and-fro campaign blather, happens all the time, media outlets play it up to fill the news cycle. Unless you think that Nancy Reagan's astrological connections have somehow gotten a projection channeling of The Gipper into Obama's head. Wasted Time R (talk) 14:57, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

It's also too recent to truly understand if it will have an impact on his campaign and, if it has an impact, what kind of impact it will have. Obama is an appealing alternative to independents and Republicans and he was mostly throwing a bone to them while dissing Bill Clinton at the same time. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 16:29, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Bobblehead makes a good point; wait a while on adding campaign developments to make sure they have some significance. Of course that goes against the WP ethos of instant updating ... Wasted Time R (talk) 16:51, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

CSM article

I just came accross this article: [4]. It seems to me that it might be worth adding some of its info to the article. I also started a new section for 2008 developments. I hope that is okay. Redddogg (talk) 17:14, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

A lot of that article's material is already covered in the South Carolina section, but you can see there's more that should go in. I clarified the sectioning; "Campaign developments" is just for 2007, while "Caucuses and primaries" covers all 2008 developments, interwoven with the primary and caucuses themselves. Wasted Time R (talk) 17:38, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Sorry I missed that. Redddogg (talk) 04:44, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Endorsement

Can somebody please add that Obama has also been endorsed by the St. Louis Post-Dispatch? I would but I don't know how to use all the fancy coding and everything.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/editorialcommentary/story/121FA9A750C5E018862573DC0003A07F?OpenDocument —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.107.192.226 (talk) 19:10, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Kennedy

Just to note, I added Ted Kennedy to the text under endorsements (rather than just the list) considering that he is the most prominent Democrat to endorse besides Bill Clinton. It also seems to makes sense to have the Caroline Kennedy NYT piece in the same sentence, unless anyone disagrees. Joshdboz (talk) 21:08, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Really major endorsements, which Ted Kennedy's certainly is, deserve to go into the mainline narrative, which I've now done. Wasted Time R (talk) 23:03, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Great, I'm new to this article. Joshdboz (talk) 23:50, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Obama is leading... (excluding superdelegates)

Is there some reason why we are excluding superdelegates in the lede? It makes more sense to me to give the overall state of the delegate race. I made this change, but it was deleted. johnpseudo 18:28, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

A simple solution is to give both ... estimated delegates from the primaries and caucuses so far, and estimated delegates overall including estimated superdelegates. Wasted Time R (talk) 18:43, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

My problem with that solution is that the breakdown is already given below in the table. We don't need to provide all of the information in the lede, we just need to give the most important top-level information, which (in my opinion) is the total delegate count. johnpseudo 18:53, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Another problem with listing superdelegates is that the vast majority of them are uncommitted or undecided and even amongst those that have voiced support for one candidate, many of them can end up supporting another candidate, depending on events. Right now it's just an opinion poll, not actual primary results. --Loonymonkey (talk) 19:01, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

What you say is also true of delegates from caucus states — where state conventions have yet to happen — and even delegates from some primary states. It's a deliberately imprecise business, but one that if you're trying to measure progress towards the nomination, you have to engage in. Wasted Time R (talk) 19:14, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Whatever figure we choose to give, we need to clarify if the figure includes or excludes superdelegates. --Ezeu (talk) 19:25, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Just wondering if I can reason why we have to use the word Muslim

ok, so I changed every thing from Muslim to Islamic. fine to revert but please say why. And about me adding the bit about indonesia- its the truth and and I think the truth behind the rumor is important, and proves the inaccuracy of the main allegations in a new way. anyways if this person was reading the talk page they would realize I am just trying to help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.220.110.83 (talk) 23:24, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Deletion of referenced information by User:Johnpseudo

Johnpseudo deleted information relating to Obama's Pakistan comments here claiming this event is not relevent to this article describing Obama's presidential campaign. There are references describing how it is notable and how it was commentated on by rivals and major news carriers. There is no doubt that such a major policy shift from the current administration is noteworthy. Prester John ^{-(Talk to the Hand)} 05:32, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Your text overstated the case when it said "After weeks of discourse surrounding the policy ..." In fact your two cites are only six days apart (Aug 1 to Aug 7). Wasted Time R (talk) 12:06, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll assume you read the references, in particular this one, which states in its lead paragraph; "Comments he made regarding sending U.S. troops into Pakistan stayed with Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama for a second week.". Even if you disagree that that the two weeks mentioned can be classified as "weeks" does this disqualify the entire section? Prester John ^{-(Talk to the Hand)} 00:21, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

And in any case, his Pakistan statements are already addressed in the Political positions article, as one of the other editors' edit summary pointed out. This kind of back-and-forth on policy questions goes on all the time during campaigns; only the most critical ones that really affect the shape and course of the campaign need to be described in this article, and I don't think the Pakistan question meets that bar. For example, this article doesn't even discuss the debate over whether Obama's health care plan offers universal coverage, which has attracted far more attention during the campaign and the Democratic debates than his Pakistan comments. Wasted Time R (talk) 14:05, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Is this reasoning based on WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS? Just because something you believe is important is not in the article means this should not be in the article? I don't think wikipedia qualifies that as a valid argument. Prester John ^{-(Talk to the Hand)} 00:24, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

As you yourself said- this story is a "policy shift". There has been a LOT of policy shifting on the part of all the campaigns, and those policies belong on the "Political positions" page. johnpseudo 14:55, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

So even though this article is Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008 we are not to include the policies and discussion he creates during the campaign? Is this article resigned to only contain inane cruft like this;

In March 2007, Obama posted a question on Yahoo! Answers, entitled: "How can we engage more people in the democratic process?" which ultimately drew in over 17,000 responses. On 12 April 2007, Bo Dietl, a regular guest on Imus in the Morning, repeatedly called attention to Obama's middle name (Hussein, as in Saddam Hussein) during an interview with Rebecca Gomez, and Imus in the Morning producer Bernard McGuirk was quoted as saying Obama had a "Jew-hating name." This is possible retaliation for Obama's call for the shows host, Don Imus to be fired after the Rutgers basketball incident.

Are really going to present an article this inane? Prester John ^{-(Talk to the Hand)} 00:32, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

After reworking the Pakistan passage to suit previous User:Johnpseudo requirements referenced relevant information has again been deleted again here. This time using the edit summary reasoning of "This wasn't a "campaign development". Here is copy of the text deleted for disscussion;

On August 1 when making his foreign policy speech Obama created controversy by declaring that the United States must be willing to strike al Qaeda targets inside Pakistan, with or without the consent of the Pakistani government. He stated that if elected, "If we have actionable intelligence about high value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will".Tough talk on Pakistan from Obama ABC News described the policy speech as "counterintuitive", and commented on how "one of the more liberal candidates in the race, is proposing a geopolitical posture that is more aggressive than that of President Bush"[5] After weeks of discourse surrounding the policy, Obama said there was "misreporting" of his comments, claiming that, "I never called for an invasion of Pakistan or Afghanistan." He clarified that rather than a surge in the number of troops in Iraq, there needs to be a "diplomatic surge" and that if there were "actionable intelligence reports" showing al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden in Pakistan, the U.S. troops as a last resort should enter and try to capture terrorists. That would happen, he added, only if "the Pakistani government was unable or unwilling" to go after the terrorists.[6]

Was this really not a campain development? Prester John ^{-(Talk to the Hand)} 00:14, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree a weakness of our campaign articles is a focus on horserace material rather than policy material. In part, that's because the policy material tends to accumulate in the Political positions articles rather than here, in part it's because the press covers horserace more too. However, my argument about including Pakistan and not bangings over health care coverage and other top issues isn't "other stuff exists", it's WP:Undue weight. Wasted Time R (talk) 00:42, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Delegate Count

In the last updated delegate count in the lede[7], Obama's total went from 182 down to 158 and Clinton's lead went from 78 down to 74. I am just wondering how in 4 days he could have lost delagates and gained on Clinton. Jons63 (talk) 17:21, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Somebody had the first number wrong. johnpseudo 17:28, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Jons63 (talk) 17:29, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

More referenced information deleted by User:Johnpseudo

User:Johnpseudo has again deleted referenced information here, this time regarding comments made by the top three leading candidates on Ronald Reagan. His edit summary was "Deleting Reagan comments again. This is a very minor occurence, he wasn't praising Reagan (find a source), and it wasn't a controversy (find a source))". Here is the text deleted complete with the references from MSNBC and the New York Times;

In mid January 2008 comments made by Obama that appeared to praise the legacy of former Republican president Ronald Reagan attracted rebuke from rivals and dissection from all sections of the media. Obama had stated in an interview that; "Ronald Reagan changed the trajectory of America in a way that Richard Nixon did not and in a way that Bill Clinton did not."[8] Hillary Clinton ridiculed the idea that the Republicans were the party of ideas, suggesting Mr. Obama had said that the Republicans had “better” ideas, which he did not. [9] The New York Times January 21 2008 Senator John Edwards criticized Obama specifically for referring to Ronald Reagan as an agent of change stating in a newspaper interview that; “I would never use Ronald Reagan as an example of change,”[10]

Here the paragraph includes comments from Hillary Clinton and John Edwards in the NewYork Times, and MSBC, both of which go on to describe the controversy it created. Is it disingenuous to say these sources do not meet WP:RS? Is there another word other than "praise" that could be used to describe Obama's comments? Does the fact that, in the opinion of User:Johnpseudo he was not "praising Reagan" justify removal of the entire section? Has this been deleted under a policy as flimsy as WP:IDONTLIKEIT? Prester John ^{-(Talk to the Hand)} 00:02, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I would include the Reagan/Republican-ideas material. It falls under the category of, "Candidate A makes the mistake of saying something thoughtful and arguably true that doesn't conform to party orthodoxy, candidate B jumps all over candidate A with feigned outrage." This stuff goes on all the time during campaigns, usually over minor junk that isn't worth remembering but sometimes over matters more substantial, which I think this is. A somewhat similar example in the other direction was Hillary's comment about MLK and LBJ, for which she also got jumped on. The Reagan/Repub bit is an example of how Obama view things and an example of the kind of discourse level the primary battle took place at. But if you do include it, you should put in Obama's full quote with all necessary context, as we've done for the Hillary MLK-LBJ quote. Wasted Time R (talk) 00:36, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

The original version of this section contained the full quote yet was deleted by User:Johnpseudo here using the edit summary "This is not a notable development, the quote is mischaracterized, and it's far too long of a quotation", I trimmed down the quote and he deleted it again using dubious rational that ran counterintuitive to the sources (see my comments above). Given that this section has been restored by another editor User:Allstarecho here, and copyedited by yet another editor User:Isfisk here it seems like there is a consensus to keep this information in. It is only User:Johnpseudo who is removing it. Prester John ^{-(Talk to the Hand)} 00:46, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I admit- I was out-of-line deleting the Pakistan section, and I should have been better at assuming good faith. The Pakistan comment he made really did generate enough stir to be considered a "development". The Reagan comment I still disagree with how much weight it was given and how it was phrased. The Australian citation I think it out of the mainstream in claiming that Obama was praising Reagan. That mis-characterizes his comments just as Hillary did, and I think a lot of sources out there acknowledge that distortion of his words from his opponents. johnpseudo 04:12, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

There is no doubt that the Reagan comments are notable, having been commented on by all and sundry. There is no doubt that you yourself Johnpseudo, have the ability to help rework the paragraph into something that reflects the positions of all parties involved, including sections on misrepresentations. I implore you to help "build" the section rather than outright delete. Prester John ^{-(Talk to the Hand)} 04:18, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Are we supposed to include everything that the news media and/or candidates comment on? Weren't you just arguing that the article should be less trivial? You may be believe that there is no doubt the Reagan comments are notable, but I think that wikipedia, as an encyclopedia, should be a step up from the echo chamber of mainstream media. I agree with Wasted Time above- Clinton picks a brief snippet of an Obama speech, takes it out of context and criticizes it (or was it Bill?), this gets repeated by the news and Edwards, and it finally dies down when people realize it wasn't praise at all. In the end- there wasn't actually a story, or if there was a story, it was that Clinton mis-characterized Obama's comments. johnpseudo 14:21, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Don't make this just about me. It is shown above with diffs above how this section has been restored by multiple editors after you outright deleted it and how it has been copyedited by different editors before you again unilaterally deleted it. There are multiple editors trying to bulid an encyclopedia and there is a single solitary editor deleting User:Johnpseudo. Given that Obamas comments were made in an interview and not a speech as you claim makes me wonder if you know anything about this incident at all? Couple this with the fact you don't know if it was Bill or Hillary which takes it out of context. Have you read the references in this section we are talking about? Have you read anything at all about the incident in question or is it just as you say "echo chamber"? Prester John ^{-(Talk to the Hand)} 15:21, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

So there were a couple people who corrected misspellings and another person who restored your content. What's your point? johnpseudo 16:03, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

My point is there is only one single solitary editor who unilaterally deletes this section. i.e. You. Everyone else seems to agree with its inclusion and is willing to help copyedit the section to wiki standard. I am going to restore the section per WP:CONSENSUS, while accommodating your stated concerns by removing prose describing Obamas comments as "praise" Prester John ^{-(Talk to the Hand)} 00:27, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

"Hillary Clinton ridiculed the idea that the Republicans were the party of ideas, suggesting Mr. Obama had said that the Republicans had “better” ideas, which he did not.". Does this mean Obama did not say it or that Reagan did not have better ideas? If the latter, "he" should read "they", as it is referring to the Republicans.Hobson (talk) 00:49, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

This is the quote in full;

"Ronald Reagan changed the trajectory of America in a way that Richard Nixon did not and in a way that Bill Clinton did not. He put us on a fundamentally different path because the country was ready for it. I think they felt like, you know, with all the excesses of the 1960s and '70s and, you know, government had grown and grown but there wasn't much sense of accountability in terms of how it was operating. I think ... he tapped into what people were already feeling, which was we want clarity, we want optimism, we want a return to that sense of dynamism and entrepreneurship that had been missing."

Johnpseudo originally deleted the whole passage under the rational that the quote was too long. It is currently in the article with only the first sentence, which I tend to believe is acceptable, however Wasted Time R has indicated above he would like to see the entire quote. Prester John ^{-(Talk to the Hand)} 02:18, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Early 2007

There is a description in the first paragraph of section early 2007 of abc declaring Obama's foreign policy on pakistan as more aggressive than George Bush. Now, if this opinion was stated and has thus been cited properly I can understand the relevance it holds as to how the media is viewing Obama; however, for the purposes of a npov it might be proper either to delete the line completely or add in easily citable information, Guardian WSJ NYtimes Washingtonpost, that on two instances now the military or CIA has used predator drones to try take out targets - which, if I am not mistaken would contradict the statement highlighting an ABC point of view. Just a thought, I will let the usual editors of this article decide. (PhilipDSullivan (talk) 06:36, 1 February 2008 (UTC))