Jump to content

Talk:Association football in the Republic of Ireland

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Robotforaday (talk | contribs) at 00:40, 13 February 2008 (→‎Survey 2). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

This template must be substituted. Replace {{Requested move ...}} with {{subst:Requested move ...}}.

WikiProject iconFootball: Ireland Start‑class
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Football, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Association football on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FootballWikipedia:WikiProject FootballTemplate:WikiProject Footballfootball articles
StartThis article has been rated as Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
???This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the Irish football task force.
WikiProject iconIreland Start‑class Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Ireland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IrelandWikipedia:WikiProject IrelandTemplate:WikiProject IrelandIreland articles
StartThis article has been rated as Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
Note icon
This article has been marked as needing an infobox.
Note icon
An image is requested for this article as its inclusion will substantially increase the significance of the article. Please remove the image-needed parameter once the image is added.

Suggested move

This page should be moved to Soccer in the Republic of Ireland (Gnevin 01:02, 12 January 2007 (UTC))[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

 Not done - no consensus for the suggested move. Neıl ☎ 12:52, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Requested move (rejected)

Football in the Republic of Ireland → Soccer in the Republic of Ireland — Gnevin says that the use of "football" is ambigious and it should be moved. —hbdragon88 (talk) 00:13, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
Eh, where did the FAI and the IFA say that they don't agree with the move? Scolaire (talk) 16:50, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But no one in Ireland - north or south - uses the term 'Association football' to refer to the game. They say soccer or football. MurphiaMan (talk) 20:38, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes but consensus on Wikipedia has been to call it association football and indeed most soccer-related articles are being renamed as association football such as here [1]. To me a move towards soccer, or indeed if the were to stay at 'football' to be breaking the general consensus that this move achieved [2]. Therefore I am remaining neutral. EJF (talk) 11:36, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Gnevin moved the article from Football in the Republic of Ireland (its orginal location) a while ago without concensus, as the article history shows. As we can see it is not in following with the other Irish football articles on Wikipedia and the term "soccer" is only used in Ireland by people who aren't interested in the sport. - Talk of the Toon (talk) 15:40, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Discussed below Gnevin (talk) 09:25, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose: If "football" is ambiguous, does that mean all non-"soccer" football pages will be renamed with "rugger" for "football"? I don't think so ... ("Association football", I could get behind.) the Sidhekin (talk) 10:29, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: No as the Rugby articles are called Rugby Union and so aren't ambiguous Gnevin (talk) 19:37, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Well, speaking as a native when I hear "football" I certainly don't think rugby. But it could be either Gaelic football or soccer, depending on the context and the company. So, yes, it is ambiguous. I might add that only Dublin and Wicklow manage to turn Gaelic football into a Beautiful Game. Sarah777 (talk) 02:09, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A rather partisan comment! Fans of Colm Cooper might dispute that (and I'm a Dub!) :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scolaire (talk • contribs) 08:17, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The rugby being called football is fair less common than Soccer or Gaelic but it still is the Irish Rugby Football Union,players are still called footballers and matchs are called good games of football Gnevin (talk) 14:12, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Unless they're playing Kerry", he mournfully cried into his beer ..... MurphiaMan (talk) 11:30, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
How about Football (soccer) in the Republic of Ireland, which matches the naming conventions used with reference to football.Regan123 (talk) 19:24, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The title soccer in the Republic of Ireland was fine for a year until some random user moved it Gnevin (talk) 19:36, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Gnevin, the article history shows that some random user aka you, moved the article from Football in the Republic of Ireland in the first place, without concensus.[3], that is why all the other Irish football articles like Republic of Ireland national football team have a different title to the one you moved this article to. - Talk of the Toon (talk) 15:43, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Football (Soccer) is a redirect now. Soccer is now 'officially' Association Football on WP. PMSL. MurphiaMan (talk) 21:26, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Move by User:Gnevin as per Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#Good_practice#Keep the layout clear: and Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#Good_practice#Centralized discussion

Gnevin moved the article from Football in the Republic of Ireland (its orginal location) a while ago without concensus, as the article history shows. As we can see it is not in following with the other Irish football articles on Wikipedia and the term "soccer" is only used in Ireland by people who aren't interested in the sport. - Talk of the Toon (talk) 15:40, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment A while ago was a year and no one objected Talk:Football_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland#Suggested_move, the term is ambigious in Ireland nothing to do with interest or lack of Gnevin (talk) 16:02, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, nobody supported either, so its really a mute point. Would you care to address the points I brought up above? - Talk of the Toon (talk) 16:08, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a moot point: a move that is unopposed is a good move - there is an implied consensus and so there is no need for anybody to voice their support. As for your points above: every single Gaelic football club has "football" in its name and, as Gnevin points out below, in IRFU the "F" stands for football, therefore by your criteria an article entitled "Football in the Republic of Ireland" should cover all three codes! an article that only covers soccer should be called "Soccer in the Republic of Ireland". Simple! Scolaire (talk) 16:47, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: thanks for the spelling correct, however, you or your fellow pro-Gaelic games, anti-football editor have yet to address any of the issues brought up. Such as the fact that A) The federation has football, not soccer anywhere in its name. B) Not a single Irish club out of the 21 in the top two divisions of Irish football have "soccer" in their name, ALL have either Football Club or Association Football Club. C) All of the other articles on Wikipedia in regards to this sport in Ireland have football in its page name such as the national team, etc.
What reasons, outside of "hardline nationalists say so" would there be to have "soccer" in the articles name, when even the Irish people who play it, all play in clubs with "Football Club" in their name, for an Irish federation called the Football Association of Ireland, hoping to make it to the Republic of Ireland national football team, which has a badge referencing the word "football"? Wikipedia is not a political podium, we work by what can be vertified, and clearly as has been shown, all of the things in regards to this sport in that country are explicitly named football not soccer. Until all the Irish football entities change the word "football" to "soccer" in their name (note - not a single one of them has), the article should remain where it was before Gnevin's move. - Talk of the Toon (talk) 17:08, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: When assessing the votes in this survey, I would ask you to take into account Talk of the Toon's characterisation of 'support' voters as "pro-Gaelic games", "anti-football" and "hardline nationalists", along with his/her perfectly correct assertion that "Wikipedia is not a political podium". Scolaire (talk) 09:38, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wiki doesn't care about the offical name is , it cares about WP:COMMON and Wikipedia:Disambiguation .As Scolaire repeated. The IRFU has the word football in their name ,why cant this article be about Rugby. If you have an issue with the naming of this article I'd suggest you read Talk:Association_football#The_naming_convention which has rules all soccer pages should be called Association_football Gnevin (talk) 17:43, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Errrr well since that federation is called the Irish Rugby Football Union, there is nothing stopping you from starting a Rugby Football in the Republic of Ireland article if you really want to. As for WP:COMMON, the fact that ALL of the teams are either called "Football Club" or "Association Football" in Rep of Ireland, means football lives up to WP:COMMON above and beyond for this sport. - Talk of the Toon (talk) 19:14, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move

Football in the Republic of Ireland → Association football in the Republic of Ireland — I am proposing this move, as during the previous requested move, some other users supported the idea of moving this page to Association football in the Republic of Ireland. This move would remove the ambiguity of the term 'football' which is also commonly used in Ireland to refer to Gaelic football and sometimes rugby football. As it appears the term 'soccer' is quite unpopular, perhaps this move would be more appropriate. I feel that association football would be the least worst title. As shown here and at many articles concerning soccer in different countries, an ongoing consensus has been to move to 'Association football in...', even in countries where there are no other forms of football popular on a large scale; this is more important in RoI, where there are competing sports which style themselves as 'football'. This move would also help bring continuity throughout the encyclopedia. —EJF (talk) 20:28, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Survey 2

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
Nobody here really is arguing that Association Football is more common that 'soccer'; the issue is whether "football" is unambiguous. In the context of Ireland, like it or not, it isn't. Sarah777 (talk) 03:36, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, firstly, you're wanting it move there; and, secondly, like it or not, "football" is clearly understood as primary usage in regards to soccer. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 03:53, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We are specifically talking about "football in Ireland". And I doubt many Americans would agree with you on the general point (though I might). Type "football" into Wiki-search; you get This article is about various sports known as "football". End of debate really. Sarah777 (talk) 04:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, Americans don't call it Association Football anymore than we do. They'll call it soccer, and you'll find more Americans calling it football than "association football" ... though that'd be the Europhile type. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 13:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment As the above discussion ,you may say football for soccer , while I say football for Gaelic. This is not a nationalist issue its an issue of ambiguous naming. You say more popular participation sport and i say most watched sport for Gaelic, Irish people disambiguate these codes in the context. Their is no hard and fast soccer= football, gaelic is never football rule . Gnevin (talk) 22:36, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I notice you had too disambiguate what code you where referring to while voting no. Gnevin (talk) 22:36, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment look at the link all about football not Gaelic football,[4] notice just football here ,what about the Irish Rugby Football Union and Lansdowne_Football_Club , So say their is not ambiguity surrounding football the word in Ireland is clearly misguided Gnevin (talk) 23:37, 12 February 2008 (UTC)?[reply]
The text only mentions Gaelic Football. Rugby is Rugby. --Albert.white (talk) 00:11, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Rugby is Rugby football the usage of football to refer to Rubgy Union is lower than the other two but still commonGnevin (talk) 00:20, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support My experience is that in Ireland, the term football is ambiguous. "Did you see the football?" as a question could refer to either Gaelic or Association football. I think the user above is misguided to suggest that this is just an issue that would be flagged by nationalists. In England, I'd never even think to call the game anything other than football. But in Ireland football does have more than one meaning, and wikipedia should reflect that. Robotforaday (talk) 00:40, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion 2

Any additional comments:
This is a simple disambiguation issue and there should be no debate. "Soccer" is the other common term - regardless which alternative is used a title implying that Association Football is the main or only "football" in the RoI and/or that soccer is what most people think of when hearing the word football in an Irish context is complete nonsense. Also I note that the obviously correct title "Soccer in the RoI" was failed due to the minority opposed. I thought these things were decided on wiki-policy and the points made; not a "vote" that allows a minority to block plain and simple common sense. Sarah777 (talk) 21:30, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If this fails I think I'll create a dab page like this:
Football is used equally in Ireland to refer to soccer or Gaelic football; it is also sometimes used in reference to Rugby Union.
Sarah777 (talk) 21:44, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I had a look on the Irish Times, and it seemed to me that just-football usually, perhaps overwhelmingly, meant the and-in-the-end-the-Germans-win variety. Now it could be that that's unusually, or that the Irish Times is atypical of normal usage, but there you are. Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:31, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Are you sure Angus that it wasn't your copy of the IT that was atypical?! Sarah777 (talk) 00:35, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Where on the times [5] says ,Rugby ,GAA and Soccer
If this fails the page should be what about it says on the tin football, Gaelic, Union and Association Gnevin (talk) 22:34, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That counts for something, but it doesn't alter the fact that football is used with alarming regularity on the pages of said paper to mean 22 men chasing after a round ball. I only found one unqualified use of football to mean anything in else in the dozen and more pages I picked at random containing the f-word. And table football was mentioned as often as rugby union, so Sarah had better add that to her dab page. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:06, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Despite my current South Dublin abode I clearly don't mix in those circles that think "rugger" or "table football" on hearing the f-word! Sarah777 (talk) 00:39, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Can you like me to some of these pages Gnevin (talk) 23:16, 8 February 2008 (UTC)?[reply]
I just stuck football in the search box. Disappointing or what? Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:34, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think a dab page is much more encyclopaedic as it gives the uninformed reader a greater insight into the use of the word in Ireland. Soccer in RoI or AF in RoI are both equally inaccurate and misleading to the uninformed reader. The naming conventions here are not for our benefit, so we can stuff things into neat pigeon holes. They are for the readers benefit, to explain and enhance their user experience. So dab it, and redirect from both Soccer in and AF in. That would work for the reader. MurphiaMan (talk) 08:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well Murph that was a bit preachy (are you running for Admin?) but I actually agree with you that this is the way forward. As the only "no" voter here we should give you the honour of writing the dab page. I hereby nominate you. Sarah777 (talk) 23:25, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
MurphiaMan, can you clarify what you're saying here? "Soccer" has failed, you are opposed to AF and you want "Football" to be a dab page? That would leave us with no article at all about the John Delaney sport. If you're running with the dab idea, maybe you ought to change your vote above. Scolaire (talk) 08:13, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Preachy or no, I honestly believe I am right on this. Football in the Republic of Ireland should be a dab page, either with a series of short links, or with a full article sectioned up to individual sports, perhaps even including minority things rugby league and american football. Add in a {{main}} at the top of each section pointing to the full articles and we are nearly there. We then come back to the location of the article on the subject of soccer/AF. The main reason the original move lost was that there was no consensus. We as a community were not sure if the proposed move was a good idea or not. IMHO it was. But I have no great grá for that location. It was the best option available although not a very good one.
AF in RoI is just about the worst possible option. No one, I repeat, no one would think to type that in as an article name if they were searching for the article about the subject. MurphiaMan (talk) 12:47, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No need to worry about what people search for , redirects can handle that Gnevin (talk) 14:11, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So where will Football in the Republic of Ireland redirect to? MurphiaMan (talk) 15:42, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Football in the Republic of Ireland will be the dab page see example Talk:Football in the Republic of Ireland/test Gnevin (talk) 22:10, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestion

If this proposed move is successful, then football in the Republic of Ireland could become a dab page like the football in Australia article, which mentions all the forms of football played in Australia. So a dab page called "football in the Republic of Ireland" would also mention all the codes of football played in Ireland. --203.94.135.134 (talk) 00:02, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Concern

As outlined above, though I sympathize with the feelings behind this move, I think it is misguided, I don't think "football" in this context really is ambiguous in practice and I don't think the title Football in the Republic of Ireland will actually confuse anyone. That aside, moving this article to the proposed title will create many spin-off anomalies which I see haven't been discussed or given due consideration. The Republic of Ireland national football team for instance? Is this to be moved to Republic of Ireland national association football team? Should football in Norn Iron have to be out of line with the mother Republic, or brought into line as any good periphery should? Articles aside, shouldn't Wikipedia:WikiProject Irish Football be moved too? Surely that's ambiguous too ... from what is stated above, that wikiproject must be confusing lots of Irish people with its ambiguity. ;) Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 22:34, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The WP:FOOTBALL guideline should be used for the national team article and Assocation football should be used for articles like Leinster Senior League (football) which is clearly ambiguous Gnevin (talk) 22:42, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Association_football_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland&oldid=191030709"