Talk:Saka

Saka or Shaka are names that Persians and Indians called Sarmathians and Scythians by it,so this article must be redirected to Scythian page. (Anonymous User:81.12.38.14, not otherwise represented at Wikipedia)

On the other hand, the article on Scythia and the Scythians is now well grounded in archaology, referenced, and linked. This speculation on "race-origins" does not belong at Scythia. This article needs some intellectual ballast. --Wetman 08:31, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"Pottery associated with Saka peoples has also been found in Iran?"

The text reads "These Sakas followed other Aryans into present day Iran, and returned back to their original area in Central Asia." What motivates such a contortion? Is this a post-Soviet equivalent of "Pottery associated with Saka peoples has also been found in Iran?" A disinterested outsider senses that in such contortions several ideological dogmas seem to be served at once. Hard for a Westerner to disentangle. In Soviet archaeology in Central Asia, excellent technique was habitually combined with race-political interpretations. Is there any way to cut the spin and tell the story here? --Wetman 15:03, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The entire second paragraph looks like it's heavily contaminated with a lot of needless, irrelevant, and discredited race-science POV. There is no credible evidence linking the Saka, a putatively Iranian-speaking Central Asian nomadic group, with the Germans, the resemblance of "Saka" and "Saxon" aside. The spin can be cut from this article, but it would involve starting from scratch. Janos Harmatta, a credible source on pre-Islamic Central Asian nomads, would link the Khotan Saka (existing far later than 3000 BC, but carrying the ethnonym) ultimately to the Kushans by way of the Yueh-chih of Chinese sources. The problem with the whole shebang is that nobody writing the relevant histories from the Greeks to the Chinese were particularly consistent or accurate in naming groups of "barbarians". Designations like Yueh-chih or Xiong-nu get applied to different groups living in the same places at different times, who might not have had anything in common with one another.--KASchmidt 05:11, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Merge proposal

As far as I know Saka (Scythian) and Shakya (the Buddha's tribe) are totally unrelated, although both were probably Indo-Aryan (since the Shakya were Kshatriya). I have never seen anywhere a connection between the two, appart from some vague suggestions from time to time. I really don't think the articles should be merged. PHG 11:33, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

I'll second that. There's an "Aryan Scythians" agenda lurking here. --Wetman 17:13, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Mr Wetman

1- you reject without any clear alternative reason. 2- Budha was not Kshatrya cast but Chudras. 3- Chudras were farmers and not millitary or Defenders (Kshatryas) 4- Budhas family were land owners (Feudalistic nobels) - Kshatriya or EKH-SHAT-RAYA is an old Iranian word means DEFENDER, PROTECTOR and the same definition later pronounced as SHAH hence its meaning have changed to THE KING, the kings of Persian empire were called "Ekhshatrayas" , later Shah, such as Shah of Persia. In India Kshatrya is the title of DEFENDER class of hinduism.

Sakas and Turkic ?

The little we know about Sakan language is enough evidance to know that Sakas were not speaking a language vocally harmonic !

The Turkic languages are branch of Mongol family and similar with this branch of languages it has vocal harmony !

Today turkics have been enfluenced by Persian, europeans, Arabic, Hindi. they have loan words which are not vocally harmonic but these aren't Turkic definitions originally

What we know about Turkics is relatively new compared with ancient Sakas, The turks or Turkics are related to mass immigrations happened during and after Moghol war expanding for the last 1000 years.

Certainly one may say that the indoeuropeans or indoaryans genetically survived during\under brutal dominance of Turko-mongolic alien occupants!

These regions were showered partly by Mongol agression and immigration followed when indigenous people lives and cities were ruined or disabled.

Historical records tells us the Mongols would attack many cities and brutally murder entire population, encluding women and children in Sentral asia, west china now called Turkistan, Afghanistan, Iran and Capsean sea region , also Caucasus and Anatolia )

This has lead to creation of Othoman empire and same expanding began in east and sentral europe! So the wave of Othoman Turkic agression towards Europe was attached and followed by Mongol empire ! and its only reason : Distruction !

After when attacked any who survived would stand to rebuild but often disturbed by mass immigrations of agressors tribes.

Savagery of mongol-turkic tribes were so brutal that they them selves began to change or regret after disusters and then adapting ISLAM as their religion or Persian culture for their social requirements.

The culture of all turkic Asians and Europeans today is what I call Perso-Arabo-Europeanic! They are not Shamanic any longer. They were nomades before satteling so they did not need governing, social strcutures, the culture law.

The cultures and countries we know as "TURKIC" are indeed mixture of many ethnics and divers races, ethnic languages, cultures, sub cultures so one may say for instance Uzbek language belongs to mongol family yet their race is not purely mongol ! they are mixed.

Notice that whole above happened for the last 1000 year whilst studdy about Sakas goes back to ancient times ! .............................................

Some turkish guy sent insulting messege here in English and Turkish, here is his or her ID !85.101.213.10 10:57, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

race, race, race, destruction, destruction, destruction, always the turks, always the mongol, no culture, no culture, race, race, race, destruction, destruction, destruction, race, race, race, race. dude, what's your point?! 134.100.1.177 10:52, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Whats in a name

Could saka be derived from the name for horse 'Ashva'.

Iranian names, family names

Many Iranian names of cities : Sega, seka, sika, sigaa, sigu, segaan, sigaan, sikan, sakan, sakaan, Sagasar, Sakasar, Siestan ( Sakastan ) , sagez, , .............and names , Ashkan, Sasan (sakan or sagan ) , or ...............family names : Sakai, Sekai, Sakui, Sakoi, Sakooi, Saakaaee, Saakaaian, Sasani, Saghai, Sazai, Ashkan, Ashkani, Askui, Askooi, Ashkooian, Askaani, TONS of names of cities, regions , mountains, rivers , even human names and family or clan names cognated from SAKA. also mystical terms in persian piterature such as SAGHI a highly respected "BAR TENDER" whom is giving, or donating, or even allowing the POET to drink WINE or taxucating drinks ! Bartender some times appears as God or some sort of super being ,, but his devotion is not more than a normal bartender would do in a bar ! plenty of songs in Iranian foklorinc expressions SAGHI has the sentral rule ! I think a house where drinking water for public would be called Sagha khaneh (?), a Sagha is whom protect the water disturbers ? water-man would be called sagha (?) I am not very sure on sagha or sagha khaneh issue, any one who speaks persian? leave a coment on this please !

Saka and Drang nach Osten

The recent User:24.251.32.45 who has recast this article has done comparable work at Drang nach Osten. --Wetman 06:24, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Saka and Iranian literature

This article does not mention the importance of Saka heroes in Iranian literature. The Saka heroes Rustam, Zal and others are among the most important heroes of Persian nationalism and Persian literature. Usually, Persians identify themselvs with these Saka heroes, as mentioned in Ferdousi's "Shahnama". According to some historians (for example Frye), this is a proof for the Iranian heritage of the Saka. -213.39.153.241 21:47, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

They were Parthians not Sacaes --88.68.217.53 11:10, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Zagh

Many Persian dialects use a word "ZAGH" for any one having blue eyes. Being ZAGH is not necessarily being white or European. I make some example below :

Kamran Russ ast = Kamran is blond ( rus or ross not to be mixed with Russians, see below example ) Mikhail Rusi ast = Mikhail is Russian Kamran boor ast = Kamran is blond In kurdish Kamran SUR e = Kamran is blond but when Kamran ZAGH ast = his look maybe Indian , Arabian, Turkish, Persian, European.....only the color of eye. So maybe Saka people have had genetically divers background yet their eye color could have been either blue or green ? We can find many ethnics like that in Caucasus, Turkey, Israel, Palestine, Iran and India : Sarkass or Sakiss for instance , varies skin or hair color but majority blue or green eyes. Dark haired-skins with Hazel eye or braun and black with sort of BLUISH or GREENISH flash in the EYE is also ZAGH. Majority Gypsies in europe are Zagh acording to this definition ! Many dark tribals from India too are Zagh. The conclussion is : Has ZAGH any thing to do with Saks linguistically? can any one answer me professionally?

Surgery

I have deleted a major part of the article. The theory that the Germanic people has originated in the Saka branch of Indo-Iranian has no support at all in the handbooks. There are no similarities between Germanic and Indo-Iranian beyond the fact that both language groups are Indo-European. They do not share any common linguistic innovations (even the merger of o and a is different in the two branches since Germanic does not have "Brugmann's Law"). The racial argument is even more problematic. Enkyklios 11:43, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

The deleted text:

Although, the term "Aryan" is today limited to the ethnolinguistic identification of Indo-European speakers in India, it was once a commonly used term for the Indo-European family as a whole, before the Second World War when Nazi propogandists utilized the term for their political movement. Ethnically, the Germanic nations are a separate branch of the Indo-Europeans and their language is not closely related to the Indo-Iranian branch. Nonetheless, there are significant historical linguistic similarities between Germanic languages and Indo-Iranian languages which combined with other archeological, histographical, and ethnological evidence provides a compelling case for the Germanic peoples having origin in the Saka/Scythians if not the entire Northern Indo-Iranian speaking Aryan nations. Furthermore, evidence suggests that at a minimum, the Alans, a Central Asian Iranian people related to the Scythians, are known to have entered Europe and merged with Germanic Gothic tribes in the 4th century AD, taken part in the conquest of Rome and eventually settling in Spain.

...

Growing anthropological evidence suggests that the Saka race, with an affiliated tribe under a different name, fled the Hunnic and Mongol-Turkic invasions of Central Asia and migrated to the area of the Baltic Sea, giving rise to the Saxon tribe in the area of present day Germany. Interpretation in the 19th century of primary sources and sagas relating to the Völkerwanderung ['fœlkər"vandərʊŋ] ("the migration of peoples"), known as the Germanic Migration Period, led to numerous early archeological expeditions into Central Asia. These early anthropologists discovered the initial findings which buttressed the linguistic studies of European languages then showing startling similarities between national groups.

By the early 20th century, enough archeological discoveries had been collected which when collated with the new statistical methodologies and linquistic development patterns provided near overwhelming evidence for European origin in Central Asia particularly among the Germanic nations. However, growing specialization of the arts and sciences contributed to a diffussion and fracturing of the Aryan study and retarded it's development. Finally, political revolutions in the Russian Empire, World War, and other events made continuing discoveries near impossible.

Additionally, politicization of the scientific study by various groups also limited it's growth. As competing ideologies began infiltrating academia, the legitimacy of both proponents and opponents of the Aryan theory became questioned. During the spread of Germanic Nazism, Hitler utilized the Aryan origin theory of Germany as citation for Drang nach Osten ("Striving towards the East") which was in favor of claims that Germans were "original descendants of the Aryan race" and deserved the right to return to the East. However, anti-Germanic and anti-Nazi groups equally mobilized evidence from philologists to reject the notion, and began frivolous questioning of the archaeological evidence for major cultural contacts between anyone in Uzbekistan or Iran, and the Baltic area. Only now after fifty years since the end of WWII has the academic community began to rediscover the Aryan study. Nevertheless, Germans have always maintained by virtue of tradition, saga, and history that there there was a connection between people in Central Asia and their own ancestors who were settlers from the East.

According to the traditions mentioned in Gothiscandza by Jordanes, Gotho-Germans were settled for some time in the Vistula Basin and south-east towards the Black Sea. They battled with, and temporarily subjugated, the ancestors of the Slavs (there were many Gothic loanwords in proto-Slavic), who lived between the Baltic Sea and the Black Sea and ultimately settled in their former homelands of 'Scythia' a vast undefined region that includes modern Ukraine, Belarus, Southern Russia, and the Central Asian steppes (called Oium by Jordanes). The implication being that the Germans originated in Scythia.

Sagas of the Germanic nations also cite references to ties with the East. For example, when the Saxons invaded England ca. 400 AD, their chroniclers said they "sent back to Scythia for reinforcements". The deduction is that the Saxons considered themselves to be Scythians -- the name having traveled with them, even though they were far away from the region the Greeks had labelled "Scythia". Additionally, the word Saka and Saxon have the same root spelling and in more than one chronicle, the Saxons are described as Saka and vice versa. Furthermore, the description by unrelated individuals separated by generations and nationalities of the living styles, customs, manners, and warmaking by both Sakas and Saxons are near identitical. The burial customs of the Scythians and Vikings also show similarities, wherefore nost archeologists specializing in the subject argued a common origin in support of the theory. The English are known to be descended from two related tribes, the Angles and the Saxons.

Other sagas by the Germanic nations also describe battles and customs clearly related to events in the steppes. One great saga describing the Battle of the Goths and Huns, clearly portrays events which are chronicled in other primary sources in Rome and India which are described as taking place in Northwest Central Asia. The Hervarar saga which also describes the battle details a history between the Goths and Huns which spans over generations in which the Huns were in present day Northeast Central Asia. The combined histographic conclusion is that the Germanic nations had settlements in Central Asia which they felt significant enough attachment to fight the growing Hunnic Empire over.

Paul Pezon ardently supports the Germanic national claim, stating that the Saka Scythians and the seemingly related Cimmerians were ultimately ancestors to the Celts and Germans, and that the Germans fled the Baltic area when it was flooded by the rising sea level after the Ice age reasoning that the German tribe Cimbri are thought to be descended from a branch of the Cimmerians).

Some researchers have argued that both the Celts and Germans came from an area southeast of the Black Sea, and migrated westward to the coast of Europe, starting with the reign of the Persian king Cyrus the Great, when they declined to help him in his conquest of the Babylonian empire. Herodotus (Histories I.125) takes the "Germanii" for a division of the Perses (Persians)..

About 50% of Slavs and Balts and about 30% of Central Europeans share the same Y chromosome (R1a) with 50% of the people of the Indus Valley.

[http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Anthropology/scythian/saka_ethnic.htm]

[http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Religions/iranian/Zarathushtrian/Oric.Basirov/origin_of_the_iranians.htm] [1],[2],[3] See also: Pashtun, Jat (people)

Some reasons that Sakae people are Turkic

1st: mostly of them was horsemen; 2nd: they buried dead in kurgans; 3rd: they was archers; 4th: they lived in Central Asia & didn't migrated to anywhere(like it's said in western books); 5th: You can't say about their genetics 'cause you never saw them.

From the Kurgan that the golden attire was found, a silver plate was also found. There were old Turkish runic writings on the plate and it says the gold attire belonged to a prince who died young. If nothing else, this itself proves that Saka's were Turkish origin. In Shahname, even todays northern Iran was considered as Turkic lands, like the city of Kazvin. Claiming further northern steps as Persian land based on Shahname is simply wrong. There was always a Turkic presence in Euroasian steps, at least from the Hunic times, and even after that those lands were called Saka lands. I don't know any proven evidence for Persian presence at all. I am going to remove the sentence saying Sakas or Scythians were Iranian. I'll try to find the picture of the plate and post it too. There are extreme racist statements about Turks in some paragraphs above, I hope somebody will do smth about those users too.Erguvan7 06:26, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually Kurgans have been found even before the Scythian age. If you are talking about the Issyk Inscription inscription it is in Khotanese Saka. Kazivin is not really in Northern Iran and in the Shahnameh Azerbaijan, which is above Qazvin is considered Iranian. You should get familiar with Wikipedia's policy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research. Sakas were not Persians, but they were Iranic speaker. There is a lot of material left from Khotense Saka.http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22khotanese+Saka%22&btnG=Google+Search. Here you can find some samples[4]. --alidoostzadeh 15:12, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Dear Ali, I read Shahnameh, many times, it is a graet saga. In Shahnameh, It says Qazvin was founded by Turks and named after Qaz, a Turkish Princess. There are lots of wars and land exchange in Shahname, but even Shahname accepts that Qazvin was/is a Turkic city. There is an undisputable evidence that Sakas spoke Turkish, which You removed from the page (silver plate). There is NO evidence that Saka's, forget about Iranian, even Indo-European. Therefore I change the page again.

---

Shahnameh was written during mongoli-turkic empire of Ghaznavides - What ferdosi says has nothing to do with FACT but the book is about legends of Perso-Sakic mythology as reviewed re-written for persians and sakic future! why would I say sakic here? yes SISTAN ( Sakestan ) is the senter of every thing in shahnameh , even the main hero ROSTAM is from sistan. Ferdosi mentions varies folks or people as either ARYANS or NOT ARYANS in which amongth them EIRAN versus TURAN as competitive ( not enimy - shahnameh does not support GOOD and EVIL values and it rather follows mythical times value conception , where tragedy and comedy were interpretet as Abrahamic version "good and evil" ..... in shahnameh neither IRAN is good nor TURAN ! but they compete.... and tons of tragedy happens .... TURAN ? ( EUROPE ! )..................................................................................................................... Ghazvin ( arabic name of KASPIAN )..... the definition goes long long before any one knw what TURK is ! KASPAR in TORAT .... KASHMIR in India ( many tribes moved towards india from KASPIR .... later dialectical misinterpretation renames it as KASH-M-IR.... hence in the vedic text we are dealing with KASPIRS invaders of north india and not kashmir ,,,, I beleive TURKS problem has to do with their MODERN identities ,,, all TURKIC states both in west or eastern IRAN of NORTH are given birth by ISLAM ! which means by becoming MUSLIMS and enfusion of tribals ,,, becoming sattlers with Persian culture ,, their IDENTITY was shaped .............. now sociologically one can not say TURK and not MUSLIM ! TURK is synonymous with Islam...................................... running away from this reality Turks of both east and west are trying all they can to attache them selves to any thing that is to debate ! and if you psychoogically read TURKS mind about things they are desperately in search of prooving their IDENTITY ! an example is the definition TURAN ,,, TURAN is not defined by ferdosi ,,, but both Avesta and Veda mention TURAN as the nordic part of the WORLD ! the whole north and beyound........................... I beleive this "TURK THING" mixed in debating to know about ancient peoples is waste of time ! TURK are to concider after 4th entury AD .... as above it is said : during and after mongol expantion into EurAsia !..................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.212.121.177 (talk) 18:07, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Salam. Actually Shahnameh does not say this. What you say is in the lexicon dictionary of Kasghari (11th century), he says Qazvin was named after the daughter of Afrasiyab whose name was "Qaz" and it meaning is "the play ground of Qaz"! Now Kashghari is not at fault here since he lived almost 1000 years ago, but such etymology is really not taken seriously by modern scholar and is a folk etymology (which was common in the Islamic era). Real etymology (see R.Schmitt) says Kazvin is Kashvin and related to the word Caspin. The name has also been written az Kazhvin. Also modern scholars are 100% agreement that Afrasiyab and ancient Turanians were not Turks in the Avesta.. around the time of Shahnameh they were identified with Turks. Actually Afrasiyab was probably not a real person . Even in the Shahnameh all their names virtually are Iranian (95%) and in the Avesta this is 100%. As per the silver plate, you need to look here:[5]. The inscription is in Khotanese Saka and not Turkish. Harmatta (1999) identifies the language as the Iranian language Khotanese Saka, tentatively translating "The vessel should hold wine of grapes, added cooked food, so much, to the mortal, then added cooked fresh butter on" (compare Nestor's Cup and Duenos inscription for other ancient inscriptions on vessels that concern the vessel itself).. Harmatta is a Hungarian scholar and well established and cites in multiple journals and has written tons of articles in western journals.[6] Also I brought mainstream sources that Saka were Iranian. So you can not just change page and remove sources. This is called vandalism in wikipedia, but I know your new to wikipedia, so I am just pointing this out. I know I would familiarize myself with the policies like [7]. Wikipedia is neither a debate club or etc. We just mention sources by mainstream neutral scholars who are published and books and journals which are scholarly. --alidoostzadeh 18:51, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Salam Ali. If removing sources is vandalism, why do You keep removing the picture of the plate, just because it doesn't support your oppinion? Lets put both oppinions in the article and lets readers decide which one makes more sense. You can refer to the any sources, but most reliable evidences come from archeological findings. I am not going to delete your view, I am just going to put sources and evidence supporting Turkic origin. Beginning of the article says Sakas were Iranian, what I am saying is this is at least debatable. I just read Bulgars page and even there someone said Bulgarians were Iranian originally?? Lets devide the origion section into Iranian, Turkic and other sub-sections and put related resiurces into respective sub-section, instead of saying Sakas were Iranian at the beginning. Even if You don't accept Turkic origin opinion, let others express it in the article. I prefer You do that since You made more effort on the article, and You are more experinced in editting. If You don't, I'll try to do it.

Invasion of India by Scythian Tribes

Now that copyediting has made it clearer what the content of Invasion of India by Scythian Tribes is, I suggest that that it be deleted and relevant sections be moved to Indo-scythians, Scythians, Sakas, Scythia, etc.

The content of Invasion of India by Scythian Tribes itself substantially duplicates these articles and I can't see any reason for keeping it as a standalone wikipedia entry.--Saganaki- 11:11, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

ashkenazi?

why the second paragraph has a link to ashkenazi jews article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.155.118.161 (talk) 10:10, 22 April 2007 (UTC).

Reply to query on the Ashkenazi

Good point! I wonder why too - so I have added "citation needed" tags in two places to see if anyone can come up with proper references for these claims. The info was added by people from the IP addresses: 86.140.13.205 on 28 Aug, 2006 and 81.153.122.48 on 30 Aug, 2006. Hope this is some help. John Hill 23:57, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Theoretical Connections to Celts and Teutons

This section of the article is so seriously in need of work that it's ridiculous. It appears to be very remedial work, no citations, no capitalizations, obscure wording, and a complete lack of logical consistency, (citation), historical support, etc... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carlon (talk • contribs) 16:08, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Arsacids and Sakas

The banality of some of the discussions and the ethnocentrism of the discussant who try to uselessly connect historic people to this or that modern "ethnicity" is really what drags the quality of Wikipedia down.

Anyway, there is a statement in the article: "Ashkanian means "Sakan people" or "Saka descendants". An Arab source names Sagsar as the place from which Ashkanians originated."

I beg to differ. Yes, the Arsacid family (or as they are called here, the Ashkanian) were originally from the Parni tribe of the Dahae Confederacy. Dahae were a nomadic Central Asian tribal confederacy of Iranian and probably Saka origin (might have been the Saka Haumawarga of the Bistun Inscription of Darius). However, the word "Ashkan" (the root of "Ashkanian") is a patronymic of "Ashk" which is a new Persian version of Parthian "arshak" (Gk. Arsaces), the name of the founder of the dynasty. Now, get on with your baseless discussions...--Khodadad (talk) 22:58, 21 February 2008 (UTC)