Talk:Nigger

Archive

• Talk:Nigger (word) Archive 1: July 2002-January 2004

Nigger, racist if used by white people?

The term is only really racist when another descriptive word is placed infront of it. So If someone said "You stupid Nigger" that would be racist but If someone said "I saw a Nigger" that wouldn't be racist. If someone done a impression of a Stereotype Black person that would be racist. So anyway if "Nigger" came from "Negro" which means "Black" is the word "Black" really a racist term? --User:Marc 12:46, 06 September 2005 (GMT) ---

• Your logic is flawed. All of the uses of the term you mentioned would be racist. --Alabamaboy 00:14, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

---

• Your logic is flawed. The colour "Black" is not racist. --User:Marc 3:08, 6 September 2005 (GMT)

Hagan / UN / Toowoomba II

[Earlier contributions on this topic may be found above.]

I've removed, pending documentation, the following sentences, which are unsupported on the Web except by WP:

Unfazed, Hagan took the case to the United Nations, where he found a more sympathetic forum. The UN ordered that Toowoomba Council change the name. Toowoomba Council chose to ignore this demand, as did the Federal Government.

Even if some sort of documentation can be found, it should still almost certainly be reworded: it is implausible that the Security Council would even entertain this, and if any other UN body thinks it has authority to do anything that remotely approaches "ordering" anything (beyond coffee and Danish [wink]), it will make very interesting reading. --Jerzy 09:44, 2004 Jan 13 (UTC)

Well, what i changed, & what i wrote in this section, were without benefit of slogging thru the 33kB of the page. The page history may disclose the order in which i realized the accuracy of my fear that old discussions were hidden under the bulk of newer ones. The references above serve to clarify considerably, but i'll at least mull further before trying to apply them to better stating the events, for the article. --Jerzy 06:44, 2004 Feb 2 (UTC)

---

Etymology II

[Earlier contributions on this topic may be found above.]

The following 'graph moved more or less at its contributor's request:

Moved from Etymology I

The specific origin, or unabridged (i.e., complete) (etymology), of the term, "nigger," according to "The New Oxford Unabridged Collegiate Dictionary," can be traced back to the Greek word nekra, or nekros... etc etc. Better look for that 'dictionary,' Wikipedians! You've been hoaxed. The whole opening of this article is spurious, edited in by Anonymous User 209.240.205.63 with a non-existant dictionary.I am deleting it, as it's also tacky. Wetman 10:04, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC) (Sorry to burst in at the top, but this is important... Delete this when the issue is resolved.)

Later (not Necessarily Resulting) Discussion

Has anyone actually checked this highly unlikely derivation from nekros? I will do it soon as I get home and consult my dictionaries. Adam 04:45, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The etymology seems bogus. The Greek words for "black" involve the stem melan- (whence melanin and the fourth humour, melan choler), and nekros means "corpse", not "diseased". Also, the Latin niger sounds nothing like the Greek nekros, and my Latin etymological dictionary makes it clear that they aren't connected. —MIRV (talk) 05:06, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Surely it comes straightforwardly from the Latin niger via Spanish negro. Adam 05:15, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I fully agree, but I can't find any evidence that the Latin niger comes from the Greek nekros, which specifically denotes death and dying. I still think the derivation from the Greek, at least, is bogus. —MIRV (talk) 05:20, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Also, the dictionary from which this etymology is supposedly derived seems to be a fake; there are no references on Google, and none of the online booksellers carry it. —MIRV (talk) 05:30, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Why do we need to say it comes via French? The French for black is noir. The etymological chain is most likely to be niger - negro - nigra - nigger. There was plenty of contact between Spanish America and the Old South, so I don't see why a French connection is necessary. Adam 05:55, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The word could have come via either language -- there's a French word, nègre, that translates roughly to "nigger" -- so perhaps both should be noted, unless someone has a definitive reference that can decide the question firmly? —MIRV (talk) 07:41, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

(How did I miss that?) Someone has helpfully quoted the OED on this talk page. That should settle it for now. —MIRV (talk) 17:37, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

---

Slang, streetwise, and Rap

THis article couold use some Slang context, streetwise use, and Rap culture use of the word. JDR

Yes, particularly that its rejection has became a part of the cultural wars, and a contradictory one since blacks are allowed to use it, but not whites.

White kids use 'nigga'

User:68.123.237.104 said: I do not believe that white kids use "nigga" as a "term of endearment". Show some evidence. This is really quite true. I'm Asian and all my friends are non-black and we all commonly refer to each other with this term. Back in middle and high school, everybody used it. Kent Wang 15:40, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

User:67.165.78.163 has gone ahead and deleted the following:

In some high schools the word nigger has become so commonplace that even "wiggers" are referred to as "niggers" within their own social groups even use the word themselves. However, this is not the way it is used in all high schools.

I agree that this at least needs a rewrite and probably doesn't belong in the article, but I thought it ought to be posted to the talk page for discussion in case others think it belongs. Tom 19:04, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The cultural impact of Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas must not be overlooked. It has transcended usual limits of videogame fame, so many boys (often very young/underage for its content level) have played it that "talkin' hood" is now the new cool. Therefore, if blacks call each other niggers, and San Andreas has popularised "black-ese", therefore this word is certainly not being used in an objectionable context, unlike, say, the current use of gay in an expression such as "that car is so gay!" Master Thief Garrett 09:17, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, in an explicable way, one might say that San Andreas' "blacks are cool" pop-culture has helped improve blacks' status in the eyes of many members of the current generation. They might even be potentially idolised, like "Wow, that guy's black! I wish I was black, like CJ!" Is this the end of discrimination? Has Rockstar killed race hate? I really don't know, but it would probably be "good" in a way if they have. Master Thief Garrett 09:22, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

it's actually quite the opposite--it's a shame people think this. it's the shameless objectification of blacks just like of women in today's culture. i love san andreas. i'm not being PC, either, as i hate censorship. it's just the sort of "blaxploitation" our modern culture feeds off of. some black comedians are guilty of it too--the running "white people are stupid" jokes. And it's okay for them to do that--it's okay, sure--but the sad part is they're serious. And a serious black racist or a serious white racist are the same: stupid. anyway, i think it's a bad step for blacks in general. it's like "nice guys" who put women on a pedestal--this is almost as bad as treating them like shit, you're treating them like fragile objects; animals to be pointed at in the zoo. how about people? Lockeownzj00 01:44, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

• Gay as in stupid is spelt Ghey. --User:Marc 3:10, 6 September 2005 (GMT

Avoiding Offense

I'm of the opinion that recent additions to the first paragraph of Avoiding Offense, regarding similarity to the words "booger" and "teat", are unfounded and don't belong in the article. -- Yath 06:43, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

• Actually I'd say "tit" would be more offensive than "teat", but yes you're right, this is a cultural term. If anything I'd compare it to, say, calling Asians "yellow-skinned" or Maoris "darkies". So if someone feels similarities still need to be covered, cover those ones. There may be others I'm not aware of, I'm not exactly a fount of knowledge about oppressive slang names... Master Thief Garrett 09:03, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The most offensive word?

I'm not sure the claim that it "packs more punch" than other ethnic/racial slurs is accurate. Kike is pretty damn offensive to a lot of people. --Delirium 07:44, May 11, 2004 (UTC)

If you want to rework it, you'll get no objection from me. "Cunt", while not racist, is also up there with highly offensive terms. The article currently tries too hard to be superlative. --Yath 07:56, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

It's an open contest, I think. I know that, frankly, it's something most Americans do an instinctive double-take upon hearing; A "They actually fucking said that?" usually follows in some form. Kike is close, very, very close, but is not quite as used anymore even as an insult. Additionally, it hasn't had the (weird as hell for a white kid from the Northeast) rebirth in a vaguely sort of positive way. Which, it should be noted, creates a minefield. It's a very, very recent thing. Until maybe 5-10 years ago, if you ever said it, particularly in public, you might as well have set off a nuclear weapon.

Then we had the whole rebirth as sort of positive...which I will never understand, and which creates a very uncomfortable situation for most over, say, 20. --Penta 05:36, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

You know what make for a more offensive racial slur? Hard consonants. - Clarknova 06:34, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

That is so true. Plus it really helps to be monosyllabic. Like "daq" (i.e. "duck") Dustin Asby 15:05, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I too was going to mention "cunt." I think this is the most offensive word (according to a social majority) in U.S. English. True, "cunt" isn't a racist term, but it is often used as a disparaging term for women. Dustin Asby 15:05, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I wouldn't say it's the most offensive word by any means, America is one country out of 192 countries in the world, this word only carries offence in America and even then (from the outside looking in) it is only middle and upper class whites that seem to have a problem with the word at all.

I love this part--

However, some African Americans regularly use it almost as a term of endearment, as in "What's up my nigger?" (or nigga).

---

That's rich. good stuff. thanks. I needed that laugh.

As strange as it sounds, this is *actually* true! I've talked to blacks who've said that it's OK among themselves. Indeed some of them want their white friends to feel free to talk similarly, but I can imagine the looks of horror from unknowing onlookers... Master Thief Garrett 09:11, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

False generalization

(Excuse my poor English, it's not my natural language)

I don't agree with the ending of the sentence: "Nigger is almost always pejorative when used by non-blacks or those without dark skin, particularly white Europeans" (under "Modern meanings"). "White Europeans" there refers doubtless to English-speaking (white) Europeans. This reduces it scope to British and perhaps Irish people. I do not deny that, when "white Europeans" use the word nigger, it may be very often in a pejorative way. It's only that saying Europeans instead of British and Irish sounds like it is a commonly used word among Europeans. Actually, a great majority of Europeans do not use the word nigger in a pejorative way, since we do not use it at all. In the same way, we do not speak English among us. I would really like to see this sentence reworded. It's somewhat offending to see it as it is. --Euyyn 11:35, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I believe "White Europeans" was meant to specify ethnicity/origin, not current habitaiton. Just as people in the States sometimes avoid the colloquially common "black" in writing (preferring African American), they also substitute "European" or "European American" for "white." In this case "white European" is a bit awkward, but not, I believe, intended as you've interpreted. My inclination would be to change it to "white" or "caucasion", since it really refers to race, but if others have strong objections or can point to a style-guide recommendation on race, then I'd follow their lead. Tom 20:47, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I removed that part of the sentence, it was patent nonsense. I have seen Asians use the term, Mexicans, Pakistani’s, etc..., and it was at least as offensive (if not more so) to blacks than when some Euro-American wigger uses it. It’s all about context. A black person can offend another black person by using the word, if they say it right, and mean it in a certain way. I say the word around black people in context (telling a story about those Mexicans or the Pakistani guy using it) w/o offending them at all. The problem, as I see it, is PCBS clouding the judgment of ivory tower intellectuals who have no idea how the term is "nigger" is actually used. There are alot of ethnic slurs, and there is nothing special about this one. Sam [Spade] 21:29, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I'm not sure how the "Ivory tower intellectuals" are involved here -- I'd prefer to avoid the anti-PC smokescreen and look at the issue at hand. I don't think it's "patent nonsense" to say that "nigger" is more offensive when used by whites in the U.S. than by another minority group. There first reason this might be is that whites are the ones who enslaved Africans in America and created the racist ideology which the slur is a remnant of -- so it makes sense that the word would be more offensive when used by whites than by others (though of course the word can be offensive when used by anyone, as you point out here and as the article already made clear).

It's racist to say that its more offensive for someone to use the word nigger based solely on the color of their skin. You can't say its more offensive for caucasoids to say niggers than it is for mongoloids or negroids without being a racist. I am changing this sentence as it is possible for it to be used pejoratively by negroids. There is such thing as self-hate and much literature documents this. The word nigger being used as an insult be people of mixed negroid-caucasoid descent to make themselves feel superior, and used by negroids themselves referring to themselves detailing the level of pervasiveness that the racial ideology penetrated.-Joe

rudely specific terms

I have removed or 'faggot' for homosexuals. from ...are far more rudely specific terms such as 'greaser' for Latino/Hispanics, 'Christ-killer' for Jews, or 'faggot' for homosexuals. This is not a "rudely specific term" in the sense of the others. British English does have rudeley specific terms for homosexuals (fudge packer, bum chum, shirt lifter, etc.) but since this was specifically about American English and I don't know if the terms are used there I did not put a substitute. -- Chris Q 06:26, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Could you clarify why "faggot" is not a "rudely specific" term in your view? In American English, "faggot" only refers to homosexuals & is highly offensive (as are the others listed). Tom 09:18, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

A faggot is also a bundle of sticks, which since it is in The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition [1] I assume applies to American English also. -- Chris Q 11:13, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The other terms specify a specific percieved unpleasant characteristic of the group in question - e.g. that Latinos/Hispanics are greasy. The British terms mentioned above refer to anal sex (ignoring the fact that not all homosexuals indulge in that practice), a subject which disgusts many people, and is used to infer that homosexuals are dirty and disgusting. The term "faggot" does no such thing, there is no characteristic of homosexuals that is "faggoty" that would invoke an immediate derogatory picture of a homosexual in someone who had not heard the term before. It is the same as "Kike" or "heeb" for jew, someone ignorant of the words would have to look to context to find out whether they are derogatory terms, or merely synonyms. With "Christ-Killer" we are left in no doubt as to the speakers opinion of the group in question. PRB 11:15, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Faggot is based on the concept that homosexuals will be the kindling wood, or faggot, with which other sinners will be burned on the day of judgement.

fag·ot also fag·got n.

• 1. A bundle of twigs, sticks, or branches bound together.
• 2. A bundle of pieces of iron or steel to be welded or hammered into bars.

tr.v. fag·ot·ed, also fag·got·ed fag·ot·ing, fag·got·ing fag·ots, fag·gots

• 1. To bind into a fagot; bundle.
• 2. To decorate with fagoting.

(Middle English, from Old French, from Old Provençal, possibly from Vulgar Latin *facus, from Greek phakelos, bundle.)

Sam [Spade] 12:34, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"Colored"

I grew up (in the 80s and 90s) in a middle-class white neighborhood in North Carolina, but there were always a lot of black kids at school. In my experience, "colored" (as an adjective or noun) was definitely pejorative, probably worse than "negro." The names of the NAACP and United Negro College Fund always sounded counterproductive to me, as a kid. "Person of color" sounds respectful but archaic; I've only heard my dad use it. In general, the two acceptable terms were "African-American" or just "black." Just my two cents. -leigh 22:32, Nov 27, 2004 (UTC)

In the UK, coloured is not commonly used and I'm quite sure is not acceptable. Most people use only "black". Bush Me Up 02:17, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The article is misleading. "Indegenous Africans" aren't all black. Arabized berbers and other semitic peoples have been in Africa so long they are for all intents and purposes indegenous (especially as all peoples are originally from Africa anyway). The article needs to make clear the word does not refer to Arabs, berbers or any other non-black Africans (unless there is the adjective "sand").

I therefore think we should add the word "colored" or "black" or anything else which makes clear that its physical appearance which matters, not the fact that a person is from so or so continent.

--CJWilly 14:17, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I've deleted "colored" (again). See the note accompanying the edit. And, no. Physical appearance is not what matters; what matters is bloodlines. There are plenty of black folks in the U.S. who are as pale as white people. Assuming they're not "passing," a racist would still consider them "niggers." Back in the day, they'd be slaves, just like their blue-black brothers and sisters. And in the U.S. "colored" is considered offensive. Besides, as my note mentions, there are no white people indigenous to Africa. Everyone is "black" by the old U.S. one-drop rule. Take Prince Bandar out of Saudi Arabia, put him in FUBU, and he's one of us. Afro-Semitic peoples and Semitic peoples all have black African ancestry; it's what makes them Semites -- and black Africans and Semites (to the extent that they have black African blood) are the only people indigenous to the African continent. The term "sand niggers," though crude and racist, very clearly makes that connection. deeceevoice 15:51, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

North african arabs consider themselves white (look into the genocide in Sudan), and Prince Bandar is legally white according to the US census. If you are interested in bloodlines, most "african" americans are vastly more euro than african, its simply the racist one drop rule which says otherwise. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 13:40, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

What's any of this got to do with the price of rice? We're talking about crude, vulgar racial slurs. Osama bin Laden and Prince Bandar are as black as a whole lot of African-Americans are. And you can bet the same ignorant, redneck GIs who went to Iraq during Desert Storm and called the Afro-Semitic types they came across "sand niggers" would use that term to refer to Bandar and bin Laden, too. And it doesn't matter one whit to a bunch of rednecks from Kansas (or wherever) what North Africans consider themselves. And, no. They don't consider themselves "white"/European; they simply consider don't consider themselves black. They are Semitic or Arab and recognize themselves as such. Further, the religious schism between that part of the world and the West further encourages them to make that distinction -- in addition to their bloodlines. deeceevoice 14:36, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Furthermore, "most 'African' [A]mericans" are most certainly NOT more European than African. I don't know where on earth you got that ridiculous bit of misinformation from. Even the most generous estimates put us at generally between 13-19 percent white. And that certainly does not make us "more" European than African. deeceevoice 14:50, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Ask a N African, they tell me their white (more than once). Since "race" outside of blood type, chromosones and other genetics and language group is largely pseudo-science, a persons opinion is of value. Its what most data collecting survey organizations go by. On the subject of % african heritage in african americans:

"of the several thousand people he studied who identify as African-Americans, about 90 percent are at least half black genealogically (and thus genetically). On average, about 82-83 percent of the genes found in African-Americans are indeed from Africa. Still, the odds that a Y-chromosome test will find a forefather from Europe are significant. Kittles noted that about 30 percent of African-Americans' Y-chromosomes originated in Europe."[2]

(Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 15:30, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Its appearance which counts. To a racist, black is defined as anyone with with slightest trace of African features. Technically, we're all descended from black Africans anyway, so its not like there's much sense in the genelogical argument.

--CJWilly 15:00, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Sam, 82-83 percent and then 30 percent. Assuming these figures are accurate -- just for argument's sake -- how the hell does that translate to "most"? Answer: It doesn't -- not by a long shot. Further, no one I've ever known from North Africa (Egyptian, Algerian, Moroccan) has ever referred to themselves as "white." I suppose it all depends on what categories those questioned in the information you read (or in your experience) they were given to choose from and where their heads were. The people I've known have all been Muslim and somewhat (or very) leftist politically -- and wouldn't ever, ever, EVER call themselves "white." deeceevoice 19:14, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Its not terribly relevant, but that "out of africa" idea is dated. Current research seems to show people springing up in China, India, and Africa seperately, but its hotly debated and inconclusive.[3]

About "Mungo Man": When quoting archaeological information, it's always helpful to refer to the latest research. Mungo Man was discovered in Australia around 2001. Two years later, it Mungo Man was found to be several thousand years younger than originally suspected -- and Africa still remains the site of the discovery of the oldest human remains on record. If you're really interested in the latest, Google Spencer Wells' DNA research that traced, via San bushman DNA, what is surmised to be the earliest successful migration of humans from Africa to southern India to Australia and then subsequent migrations to points beyond. deeceevoice 19:14, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This article isn't about who is white, it's about who is black. North Africans do not consider themselves black and they are not referred to as niggers (though, like Native Americans, they are sometimes called niggers with an epithet like Sand or Prairie). It's not about African descent, a racist would call someone a nigger if they correspond that person's preconceived stereotype of a Black person. That's it, or that's my experience of it. But that might be because, here in Britain, most Blacks are from the Carribean and usually have a very complicated genealogy (with white, native American and East Indian thrown as well as African ancestors).

--CJWilly 22:28, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

What? You've never heard the term "sand nigger"? That's what they're called by ignorant people. Besides, many North Africans are notoriously racist, so of course they wouldn't want to be considered black -- though some of them clearly are. Lots of Saudis and Egyptians are as black as I am, and I'm a tan/brown-skinned African-American with with clearly Africanoid features. Prince Bandar is a soul bro. Further, you apparently don't know much about blacks here in the U.S. We are a highly miscegenated bunch -- usually with a mixture of African, white and Native American ancestry. A New York-based African-American paper reported in the mid-1970s that the number of African-Americans with Native American ancestry numbered in the upper 80th percentile. Still, in the U.S., we consider ourselves, and are considered, "black." deeceevoice 15:45, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Usage

does anyone have any evidence regarding frequency of usage? I've heard the word plenty, publically and otherwise, by people of all races. I've known a handful of people (one pakistani guy in particular) that used no other word for black people other than "nigger" or "niggers" (usually along w other expletives). Along w my personal experience, I find it highly speculative to suggest that the word is not used by "most" people, or whatever. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 23:01, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The hackneyed wigger "community"

I used this turn of phrase because it seemed both appropriate, and extremely funny (to me at least). It survived for a VERY long time, so I doubt it was particularly inapt. If their can be a "gay community" or an "online community", why cannot their be a "wigger community"? Sam_Spade (talk · contribs) 21:20, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

B-Real of Cypress Hill

Good addition regarding the Beastie Boys and Eminem. But I'm not so sure about B-Real. Is he really completely devoid of African ancestry? It's highly doubtful, given the ethnographic history of Cuba and how miscegenated bloodlines manifest over time. He certainly doesn't look straight-up white,m and his swarthiness ain't from Arawak/Taino blood. Unless B-Real has personally disavowed any African ancestry, I definitely wouldn't include this example. And even then, it's likely not so that he's as "white as the driven snow." deeceevoice 08:37, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think the point is that he's not exactly black, but more of a latino. The suggestion is that amongst certain non-african ethnicities, the term might be more acceptable. I can assure you however that the mexican and pakistani friends I have heard to say "niggers" did not mean it in a spirit of comraderie, and it was absolutely not self-representational. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 12:10, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Latinos are generally allowed to use the term nigga, since they have significant African ancestry. However, not all Black people share that view; many will still tear down a Latino brother or sister for using the term. --b. Touch 15:00, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well some blacks (heck, some white people for that matter) will "tear down" a black person using the term too, its not certainly a unanimously popular word, no matter who uses it. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 19:29, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have a number of Latino friends and speak with them often -- in English and Spanish. And I can assure you. They'd damned better not use "nigga" in my presence. Ever. Don't over generalize, BTouch. We all recall the controversy when Jennifer Lopez used it in a song, and that idiot P Diddy said he'd give her a pass -- just once. (Like he had the authority to speak for the entire race 'cuz she had his nose wide open.) Most black folks I know detest the term and use it, if ever, primarily to describe a backwards mind-set. And will absolutely not tolerate its use by a nonblack. Furthermore, even black folks ignorant enough to allow nonblacks to use the term know that not all Latinos are cool on matters of race. Chicanos and Cubanos are notoriously racist -- and just about all of them are infected with the same sickness that people of color are all over the world; they're "color struck." Pathetic. You ever watch Univision? Blacks are virtually nonexistent; you'd think all of Latin America was blanco and mestizo. The few blacks they do show are often just buffoons. And they love to refer to blacks as "monos" (monkeys) and all sorts of things. Among the black folks I know, a Latino who parts his/her lips to say "nigger," "nigga" or any variant of the word, they'd better be ready to run -- and run hard -- or suffer the consequences. deeceevoice 22:25, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Nigger/nigga

Dude, if I ever said "nigger", I'd pronounce it "nigga" and so would everyone I know. That's because in standard English, final "-a" and final "-er" are pronounced the same, as a schwa (a backwards, upside down "e" in IPA). Clearly, "nigga" is just a kewl way to write "nigger" (surely you remember "Niggaz with attitude"?). I think we have to take a bit more care in Wikipedia not to make assertions that are a bit silly, or go without saying. This is one. I didn't scrub it but those editors who work on this page regularly might like to give the idea some thought. Dr Zen 07:36, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Um, the nigger/nigga issue is a well-documented issue with African-American people. Many (most?) young Black people really do beleive that the two words have completely seperate meanings, and they use them as such. --b. Touch 08:23, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Dr Zen, in most dialects of American English they are quite distinguishable. -leigh (φθόγγος) 04:48, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

The article is correct as it stands. However, I moved a section I wrote earlier about the self-referential use of the term to the "Nigger versus Nigga" section, where I thought it was more on point. I do not happen to believe, however, that "most" African-American youth use the term self-referentially. After all, the attempt to legitimize "nigga" is simply ignorance -- and, thankfully, not all black youth are ignorant of their history, naive or arrogant enough to believe the silly hype around the overuse of this word. Many do not strive to emulate "thug" culture or accept the fake gangsta garbage/self-destructive images of rap music and hip-hop culture in all their negative permutations. They have some common sense, vision and self-respect. deeceevoice 09:07, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I agree with all of you, and insist that until we have some surveys, polls, or whatnot regarding the opinions on using the terms "nigga" and "nigger", we shouldn't speculate on what most people think. The nigga / nigger dichotomy is a very real one, and although ridiculous to me, has alot of import to many people. I remember a rather vacuous girl I knew telling me about how some black friends had explained to her that: "they don't like it when you call them "nigg-ers", but "nigga" is ok. Its the "er" part they don't like". I just shook my head and laughed. IMO "nigger, nigga, etc.. is much like other insults, and within certain groups they are acceptable. Compare "motherfucker" "mother..." and "MOFO". All have the same basic meaning, but are differently acceptable in differing circumstances. There is no hard and fast social rule, its something entirely circumstantial. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 12:04, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Why doesn't nigger redirect to nigger (word)?

Everything else listed on nigger refers to the word; this seems like a clear case for primary-topic disambiguation, with nigger redirecting here and what's currently at nigger moved to nigger (disambiguation). --SPUI (talk) 16:15, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• Fixed. --brian0918™ 17:00, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Wigger

I edited the statement on "wiggers" (The word is considered offensive [...]) to say "The word is sometimes considered offensive[...]", but it was reverted. The reason I made the change was because many people don't consider the word offensive at all, and so the article should reflect that. I know many people who would without a thought say "wigger", but who would never dream of uttering "nigger". Any thoughts? Rep 23:18, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I changed that after the revert to read "often" or "usually" (can't remember which) - definitely saying "considered offensive" is POV. --SPUI (talk) 00:05, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Oops, I must be very tired to have missed that - sorry. But thanks, it looks good now. Rep 00:28, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

POV

Opponents of this view argue that nigga is simply "nigger" pronounced with a southern accent, and the revisionist spelling is simply a phonetic representation of the word as it always has been pronounced in African American Vernacular English. "Nigger" is also "nigga" pronounced the same by many whites who intend it as a racial slur. Opponents contend the explanation of the new revisionist usage by a relatively small segment of the population has not changed its centuries-old, racist nature. The majority of African Americans, including many youth, still consider the term offensive and inappropriate in most, if not all, contexts— and never acceptable in any context when used by nonblacks.

Cite a study showing what "The majority of African Americans" think. Otherwise the above is unacceptable. Sam Spade 16:24, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Progress is being made. I have an issue w singling out races in regards to use of the term. A particularly good example of this is muslims. I knew a pakistani guy who hated black people despite the fact that they embraced him. This was especially obvious because black co-workers (I worked w the guy) often wanted to shake his hand, and otherwise greet him warmly. This made him quite angry, as he deeply disliked black people, and considered himself white. Indeed he never used the word "blacks" that I can recollect, only saying "niggers". My black coworkers on the other hand seemed to feel a brotherhood with him, sometimes refering to him as "my brotha". To top off the awkward humor of the circumstance, our upper and middle management was overwhelmingly black, and one of his complaints was that they might have hired him due to his race! All of this in the year after 9/11, when muslims were especially unpopular in the USA (this was in Dayton, Ohio). Funny stuff, if your completely un-pc (as I am). Sam Spade 12:46, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Just getting around to visiting talk. Yeah. 'S funny. Kinda like Steve Martin suddenly realizing he's not black in that film way back when. The Pakistani guy must've been absolutely beside himself. Kinda tragic, too, though. Poor thing. Despising black folks and after these years, only just now finding out he's a "nigger." ROTFLMBAO. Life's a bytch, ain't it? deeceevoice 00:59, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Last i heard from him he was about to be deported back to pakistan, so yeah, i think thats probably a good summary ;) Sam Spade 08:54, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

New meaning for word "Nigger"

Burnout Magazine is reporting a new use for the word:

http://www.burnoutmag.com/article.cgi?article=3&s=

Obviously a joke, incase anyone takes this seriously. :) Haddock420 03:48, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Dead supremacy

More passionately, the term 'Nigger' may also refer to the rarely understood 'dead supremacy.'

Can someone tell me what this means? A hint? A vague outline? Anything? JP | Tark 21:38, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

What? *scratching head* (I hope that's not in the text of the article somewhere!) deeceevoice 23:21, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "nigger"

I have heard a lot of Southerners say "nigger", and with a drawl, the "r" is very clearly pronounced. I think it's ridiculous to say that "many whites who intend it as a racial slur" pronounce the word "nigga", because I can only ever remember white people pronouncing it that way deliberately, in a more "thug" context. Flillibridge 04:26, May 13, 2005 (UTC)

I'm from Louisiana. In southern drawl, the "er" ending is not pronounced. "Jimmeh Cartuh," "flah swattuh," "cahpet bagguh," "nigguh" -- same thing. I don't know who you been listenin' to, but tha's jus' the plain fact of the mattuh. :p deeceevoice 23:19, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

You've never heard someone from the South drawl "nigg-er" real slowly and deliberately? I'm from central Texas, originally, and there are lots of people there who pronounce the "-er" in that and other words who have a clearly "Southern" accent. I just don't think it's really relevant to the article to have this kind of point-counterpoint stuff in there with such sketchy factual information. I'm not going to change anything, I just thought I'd say something. Flillibridge 23:29, May 13, 2005 (UTC)

(chuckling) Chances are I've heard "nigger" pronounced every possible way under the sun humanly possible. You say "...real slowly and deliberately" -- that's purposeful. One can pronounce anything any kind of way -- purposefully. Fact is, in casual speech, the tendency in the South is to drop the "er" and replace it with an "uh" sound. deeceevoice 07:23, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

It's pointless to argue this, because obviously we're talking about different groups of Southerners. I know what's more common where I'm from, and you somewhere else. The original point of this has been lost. Flillibridge 07:44, May 14, 2005 (UTC)

You're absolutely right. But this article doesn't say that every nonblack to pronounces the word "nigga (nigguh)" intends it as a racial slur, or that everyone who does, does, now -- does it? After all, it's an ugly word used 'round the world and people with all kinds of accents sling it around. And that's not the point, anyway. The point is the word has been pronounced "nigga" for centuries -- before naive/ignorant folks like Tupac came along and decided, in their arrogance, that they were somehow changing the meaning of the word by pronouncing it that way, that there is somehow some inherent difference in the relative powerlessness of a person in the face of racism based on whether they "thug" or not. The funny thing is folks livin' the kind of hardcore ignorant, self-destructive, violent thug life that this almost deified entertainer glorified (and which eventually claimed his own life -- ironic) are more likely to be treated like "niggers" -- incarcerated, shot dead like a dog -- than the "niggers" he so glibly dismisses. The point is, pronounced "nigger," "nigra" or "nigger," the word is offensive as hell. It's gonna take more than some uber full-of-themselves young folks unschooled in and insensitive to their own history to dissociate centuries of negativity -- of violence, lynching, racism, discrimination and hatred -- from the word. The word is no more a positive than the use of "bitch" to refer to a woman. It's nothing but unmitigated ignorance and, often, self-loathing -- an internalization/assimilation of white supremacist dogma -- disguised as bravado. deeceevoice 13:27, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Interwiki

Hapsiainen: I understand your poin of wiev and where it is coming from. Even thou you think word can be used in neutral way in Finland, there is no public media that would agree with you. There is no people in government office that would agree with you. Even in finnish wikimedia, there is not people besides you, who would share you opinion (execpt few vandals). In this article it is said that "nigger" has been neutral term before (Mark Twain etc.) but it is not any more. Exactly same has happen to "neekeri" in finnish. Only problem is that meaning has chaged shorter time ago (some 10-20 years) in finnish and there is still people alive who are not aware of that. They might still use word without knowing better. You would like to defend their right to use that word in neutral way. Well it will not work on that way. If term what I say will hurt you, even thou it is not ment that way, it is not neutral way of saying things. Other problem is that there is still so few black people in finnland, that moust of the people do not need to think what is politically correct way of talking about them. (excuse my english!)--Lemmikkipuu 11:39, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have to re-post here excerpts from an article about such words by Jukka Korpela. This is my translation:

"Words, that nowadays can be perceived as insulting, are neekeri and "vanhus". Earlier they have be used as descripting words, without valuation or with positive valuation. --- Nowadays many people perceive such words as labelling, even attacking. --- People intend to solve the problem by avoiding such words and replacing them with other expressions. Neekeri becomes mustaor "tummaihoinen" and "vanhus" changes into "ikäihminen" or "seniori".

Sometimes it seems like an easy solution that one stops using word that is stated offensive, and replaces it with another, recommended one. But sometimes not everyone thinks the recommended word is correct, either. Some people may think that it is actually worse. --- The meaning of the new word may be samothing else than intended for some readers. For instace, musta can be interpreted to mean a Roma or even a black-haired person."

I don't think that the Finnish word neekeri is in similar position that English nigger. It isn't only used by old people living some outlying villages. There is critique against the practicality of the Finnish newer words, musta and tummaihoinen. There isn't such critique in the English article about Blacks. But if you want to have interlanguage links, put them between neekeri and negro. The article about Negro has also text about similar, controversial words in other languages. The Finnish neekeri can go into the same bunch. -Hapsiainen 12:48, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)

White ignorance, white arrogance that they can presume to use such racist words with impunity -- until, of course, some knowing blackman with a sense of himself hears it and beats the holy crap out of 'em. :p deeceevoice 15:53, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

White Dawg

File:Whitedawg.jpg

White Dawg

White Dawg, the notorious "gangsta rappa" uses the term "nigga" as often as humanly possible, w no known repricussions. I figured this should be mentioned in the article, but i can't find the earlier mention of wigger usage of the word. Please find a way to fit this info, and possibily his funny face in this article as soon as possible. heck, maybe DC can even arrange for an arsewhup? Cheers, Sam Spade 21:02, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Uighurs

The word is pronounced "Weeger", it has no connection whatever with nigger, whigger or anything else, no-one has ever confused a Uighur with an African-American, and the whole paragraph is ridiculous. Adam 00:41, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There's nothing absurd about this entry. As a "near-homophone," it qualifies for inclusion. Restored. deeceevoice 03:07, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The whole concept of "near-homophone" is ridiculous. Why don't you list every word in the dictionary which begins with n-i-g or ends with i-g-g-e-r? Bigger, figure, rigger, trigger? For a "near-homophone" to be worth commenting on, you have to show some actual connection, as with the case involving the word "niggardly". When has there been a conflict between Uighur and nigger? Show me a citation. Otherwise I will continue to delete it. Adam 03:43, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You've got a point, and I don't care (frankly :p). I didn't write the section and don't see the value of the entire subsection, particularly. I generally almost always revert something like this once -- to test the intent of the person doing the edit and in case the person who inserted it isn't paying attention the first time; it gives them a little more time to notice the change and respond in defense of their contribution. Hey, if they don't revert your excision of the text, I'm certainly not going to bother doing so. deeceevoice 12:49, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Fan Mail

I just wanted to say that this is a really good balanced article on a very controversial subject. Informative and balanced (IMO). Congratulations to all involved. Gypsum Fantastic 22:35, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Origins

"Two 16th-century uses of the term commonly cited in dictionaries are actually taken from scholarly tracts." Can anyone explain to me how this integrates into the paragraph on origins. It was originally a fragment (no "are") and made no sense to me, so I took it out. Someone else put it back in, so presumably it made sense to them. To my mind, this still breaks up the flow of the paragraph and makes no sense, but I didn't want to start an edit war so I thought I'd post here first. I believe this needs smoothing/integration, but I don't know how to integrate it since I have no idea why the article suddenly refers to "two 16th century uses of the term" and then fails to say what those uses are or what they suggest.

i dont like them, they smell bad and wreck our economy FarQPwnsJoo

# 4.4 "Nigger" versus "nigga": the new revisionism

Can someone clean this up? looks like a 13 year old wrote it.... If no one minds, I myself can clean it up, as well....IreverentReverend 30 June 2005 21:26 (UTC)

"especially" in opening paragraph 2

The "especially" was removed from the following sentence:

"Generally, "nigger" is considered a highly offensive racial epithet, especially when used by non-blacks."

I have restored the "especially"

To remove the "especially" changes the sentence so that it makes the claim that the term "nigger" is only offensive when used by non-blacks. This is an interesting claim which is discussed at some length later in the article in various other guises, but it has no place in the introductory paragraph, especially not as a bald statement of fact. If others agree that "especially" does not belong here, the sentence should be revised simply to something along the lines of, Generally, "nigger" is considered a highly offensive racial epithet.. This would avoid raising the issue altogether.

That said, I've restored the "especially"because I believe that as written -- "especially when used by non-blacks" -- the sentence represents a neutral point of view.

All would agree, I think, that the term (like any racial slur) is especially offensive when used as an epithet by an outsider against the targeted group. I think the widespread avoidance of the word in print media etc. is evidence that the word itself is considered highly offensive no matter what (even when the speaker is anonymous or unclear). Whether or not the term is offensive when used within the group is up to more debate -- debate covered in discussion which belongs later in the article. Of course, I would argue that existence of said debate is evidence that at least some people consider the word highly offensive even (or perhaps especially!) when used by other blacks -- there are quotes to this effect in the article as well. Tom

I, as a white person, am offended by the word, ESPECIALLY when used by "blacks" why? because of their skin color, it is less offensive. That in and of itself is freaking racist. IreverentReverend 2 July 2005 05:52 (UTC)

I second that MessedRocker 23:57, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but this really does need to be fixed "Generally, "nigger" is considered a highly offensive racial epithet, especially when used by non-blacks" should be "Generally, "nigger" is considered a highly offensive racial epithet," otherwise this article is racist by saying skin color matters in what words you can use. IreverentReverend 3 July 2005 23:41 (UTC)

Frankly, skin color and any other number of factors do matter in what words you use. There will always be contention on whether or not it is appropriate, but look at Dave Chappelle who uses the word bigger througout his comedy, and who in a 60 Minutes interview straight out said that it was ok for him and other black comics to use it and not ok for a white comic to do the same. Judging by the content of the performances of a number of black artists, a large contingent of the black community agrees with this assesment. Admittedly, not all do, as Bill Cosby has come out directly against the use of the word nigger by blacks. It's worth pointing out that blacks are not alone in this double standard. There are plenty of comedians, (jewish, asian, latino) who play off of racial sterotypes all the time, but if a white comedian were to do the exact same act, it would probably be considered racist and offensive. Another example, gays can generally get away with calling each other faggot, but it would be inappropriate for anyone else to do so. You can argue that all of these examples are unfair, particularly to whites, but they are, for the most part, true. --CVaneg 5 July 2005 19:31 (UTC)

It is not the fairness I am debating, but the downright racism of the article. To say one word is ok for one person and not ok for another based on SKIN COLOR is downright RACIST, something wikipedia should avoid. IreverentReverend 6 July 2005 02:46 (UTC)

The article does not say that the word is offensive when used by non-blacks: it says that it is considered offensive when so used. The former is an opinion, the latter is a fact. Mark¹ 6 July 2005 02:56 (UTC)

It is "considered" offensive no matter WHO uses it, for the very reason Chappelle states: skin color matters! Implying that it is less racist for african americans to use the word is wrong to do. perhaps "Generally, "nigger" is considered a highly offensive racial epithet, especially when used by non-blacks, by the black community, and that is racist to the non-black society" or something along those lines. As it is now, it implies it is cosidered less racism when "blacks" say it. IreverentReverend 6 July 2005 03:11 (UTC)

Implying that it is less racist for african americans to use the word is wrong to do. We're not implying that. We're saying that some people believe that. Mark¹ 6 July 2005 03:24 (UTC)

then say "Some people think the term is less racist when used by blacks" not that it is racist "especially when used by non-blacks". While the intended meaning is the same, the former does not imply that it is WORSE for non-blacks to say it. it is the conotative meaning that matters here. IreverentReverend 6 July 2005 03:30 (UTC)

"Is considered" does not mean "is". Mark¹ 6 July 2005 03:35 (UTC)

Looks like we're on the verge of an edit war here. As I originally stated, I really don't like the version currently on the page. I believe it should either have the "especially" intact (which implies it is always generally considered offensive, but moreso when used by non-blacks) or should have the entire "when used by non-blacks" clause removed. As it currently stands, it implies it is not considered offensive when used by blacks, although as stated earlier in this discussion, it clearly is considered offensive by many regardless of who uses it.

I continue to contend that keeping the especially is the best solution -- I imagine even those, like Bill Cosby, who prefer blacks don't use the word would recognize it as more offensive when used as a slur by a white supremacist than when used by e.g. a black comedian. I am unmoved by IreverentReverend's claims that this makes the article "racist." It seems to me perfectly clear that the offensiveness of a racial slur is dependant on the race of those using it and patently absurd to claim that pointing out this difference represents some kind anti-white racism. Tom

I think that the current version by Tom is good, for all the reasons he and everyone else gives --CVaneg 6 July 2005 20:34 (UTC)

Intent makes a word racist, not skin color of the speaker. To say it is automatically more racist if a white person uses it is racist. to say t is more racist when used in a derogetory term is not. If you were to go onto a random BBS online, and see someone saying "nigger please" and "nigger" this and "nigger" that is it racist? Would your opinion of that change if I told you the author was white? what if i said he was black? asian? It shoulden't as, accourding to this article, those appear to be ok uses. would it be racist if instead, you found the phrase "shut up, you are nothing but a dumb-ass nigger"? was that racist? it is suddenly NOT racist if the author was black? get with the program. If you believe the color of your skin makes a word more or less racist, you are racist. Hell if you believe the color of skin MATTERS in a social setting you are racist. Lets move into modern times. IreverentReverend 7 July 2005 16:36 (UTC)

I think the point being made here is that it is far easier for people to misunderstand intent when the speaker is not black. Also, we should make a distinction between racism and offense. Racism is something internally defined, that is to say, a given person is racist if he or she makes certain judgements solely on the basis or race, on the other hand offense is something that is defined by the people around you. So it's entirely possible that a white person uses the word nigger without any racist intent, but that does not mean that the people around him or her will not be more offended than they would if a black person used the word (with racist intent or not). --CVaneg 7 July 2005 20:38 (UTC)

so... you are saying that people are judging others based on the color of their skin, and using that to decide wetehr a word was racist or not? gee that sound pretty darn racist.... like I have been saying.... IreverentReverend 8 July 2005 05:57 (UTC)

In fact, that is exactly what I am saying. Society, at least to some extent, is racist. Regardless of your own lack of any racial preconceptions, it would be foolish of us to assert that all of society is completely color-blind. --CVaneg 8 July 2005 17:10 (UTC)

Other uses

People use 'nigger' to refer to people from the middle east in the term 'sandnigger'. I wonder if anyone else thought that should be added to the page or not. --PirateMonkey 7 July 2005 21:56 (UTC)

Robert Byrd quote without citation

• I've removed the bold text from the following sentence: "When it was translated into English, it was published under the title White Niggers of America (incidentally, former Klu Klux Klan member and current Democratic U.S. Senator of West Virginia Robert Byrd used the term "white niggers" when asked in an interview about the state of race relations in America)."

I have no doubt that Byrd said that, but a) the article doesn't specify when and where Byrd said it, or provide a citation for it and b) it makes no sense as a parenthetical clause of that sentence. Please put the quote back if a citation can be found and note the citation under References at the bottom of the article. Thanks, Fernando Rizo 9 July 2005 02:44 (UTC)

The GNAA

Some editors seem not to like a link to the GNAA in this article. Can I give the reason why I think it is highly relevant? The article centres on the fact that the word nigger is normally regarded as highly offensive. The GNAA is an example of deliberate, but non-racist, use of the word nigger to cause offence, something not mentioned in the article. I can't think of another example but if there were one, then that would have a place. Having mentioned it in the text obviates the need to put a 'see also' section in the article and I have moved the reference, but in my opinion, provided the GNAA article itself is kept (which is looking increasingly likely), it has a relevance to the contemporary usage of the word nigger. For the record I am not a member of the GNAA and I would consider anyone who implies that I am as making a personal attack. David File:Arms-westminster-lb.jpg | Talk 21:19, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Good point there, when referring to the offending part of "nigger" (as opposed to the racist part of "nigger") MessedRocker 00:03, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

Howard J. Ehrlich quote

The Ethnophaulisms section looked like this prior to my edit: Social scientist Howard J. Ehrlich has said "ethnophaulisms are of three types: disparaging nicknames (chink, dago, nigger, and so forth); explicit group devaluations ("Jew him down," or "niggering the land"); and irrelevant ethnic names used as a mild term of disparagement ("jewbird" for cuckoos having prominent beaks or "Irish confetti" for bricks thrown in a fight). Virtually all racial and ethnic groups have been the subject of racial slurs; but few, if any, racial or ethnic groups have had as many racial slurs associated with them as blacks. As you can see, the Erlich quote has not end quotation mark, and I don't personally know where the reference comes from, so I've removed the quotation mark. Fernando Rizo 23:30, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

what does it mean?

The word "nigger" is an extremely controversial term used in many English-speaking countries, including the United States, United Kingdom, Canada, and Australia (but also in other countries where English is known such as Germany, specifically)

I do not understand it