Talk:Russian mafia

Questionable statement

The article says: "The oligarchs such as Khodorkovsky and Berezovsky and other prominent Russian Families of Jewish ethnicity such as the Vicefield/Litvinoffs, have all had alleged links with the Russian Mafia. Their connections with the state of Israel are extensive." Can anyone prove this? Sounds like speculation with anti-semitic undertones. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yakolev (talk • contribs)

That comment is undated and probably old, but there was a vandal who was inserting the name "Vicefield" in Wikipedia in various ways, including a now-deleted biography of this presumably made-up family. I think the last of these was recently removed. - Jmabel | Talk 03:55, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Objectives

Two things, both of which I am too damn lazy to do, please merge the four articles that need to be merged and also, I've written the urls of a couple of realiable sites with good information in the refrences and furthering reading part of the page, please read the articles and add some of the information to this article. Thank you to anyone who will complete these objectives, and good luck. --GorillazFanAdam 02:52, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Sources?

This article contains a lot of allegations concerning ethnic/religious backgrounds and very few sources to back up the claims.

What is the source of the obscure "estimate" that the Russian Mafia put $4 billion dollars into the Israeli economy? And how is "Jewish predominance" within the Russian Mafia defined? It would be better to mark these passages as speculations since these claims can obviously not be substantiated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.149.45.51 (talk • contribs)

I agree, there are a lot of uncited statistics throughout the article, but someone deleted the unreferenced tag I added to this article without adding citations. Brad T. Cordeiro 00:28, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Jewish presence in Rusian Mafia

For those dim enough to realise that the number of russian jews within the mafi is bound to be a lot, its just like the u.d.a in irland, in some parts a catholic is the head, such a contrast, so to say that due to a persons religion or even backround would stop them from partaking in organised crime would be a farse, its not the teaching that craves, it's the wounder. Please write back what you think. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.250.29.221 (talk • contribs)

• Nobody disputes that some members of the Russian Mafia happen to be of Jewish descent. To claim, however, that this criminal organization is essentially run by Jews, possibly as a part of some global Jewish criminal network is a very serious accusation. The Nazis tried to fabricate a similar story before. Besides, why does the religious background matter of some gang members matter in the first place? Why isn't anyone discussing the fact that the Italian mafia is run by Catholics and what that implies about Catholics as a group? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.191.165.143 (talk • contribs)

• I'm sorry but that was an unfair comment to make about cathilocs as being a catholic dose not mean that you are part of crime in any way. i think you must have a problem with diffrent religions. thats not on,the catholic commuinity is a well developed and respected commuinity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.31.137.11 (talk • contribs)

• Sorry but I think you missed my point here. This was not to say anything negative about the Catholic community or any other denomination. It was about double standards being applied to Jewish people and adherents of other religions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.191.145.235 (talk • contribs)

• Ya, you don't see anyone pointing out that Cathliocs run the Italian mafia, why should it be pointed out that Jews are int the Russian Mob, thats slightly Anti-Semetic. That was a good point. --GorillazFanAdam 02:35, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

• It's not a very good point though because being Catholic merely describes one's religious identity (apart perhaps from some general southern European cultural influences), while being Jewish is often defined in religious, ethnocultural, national, or even existential terms (or any combination thereof). In addition there are over one billion Roman Catholics, making generalizations about them based on the criminal activities of a small number less meaningful than for a group consisting of less than fifteen million persons worldwide. Critic9328 05:01, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Right because that one factor of ten is really important when you are talking about a few hundred to a few thousand individuals out of millions? In order for your argument to make sense you would have to establish that a larger percent of the jews of the world were involved in organized crime than the percentage of catholics. This involves not just the number of catholics and the number of jews in the world but also the number of catholic and jewish criminals. My point it is foolish to argue that a) such a comparison can be established with any reasonable certainty, and that b) such a comparison, if established, would be meaningful. In fact it would not, it would still just be anti-semitic to emphasize that the Russian mafia has Jews in it. This article is quite clearly anti-semitic. If I knew more about the Russian mob, I would fix it. Dwinetsk 21:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

• In Russia being a Jew is defined not by religion but by ethnicity

References

Sources concerning Jewish leadership of the Russian Mafia.

• [1], a NY Times article, reprinted at this site
• [2], An article by Robert I. Friedman author of the book "Red Mafiya" about the Russian Mafia.
• [3], BBC source mentioning the questioned $4 billion dollar figure.
• [4], article about the financement of the state of Israel mentioning cash gifts of over $1 billion each from Russian/Jewish mafia kingpins to Israeli politicians.

EBW — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.202.114.204 (talk • contribs)

Anti-Semitism?

I agree that this article needs reviewing, but to claim that it is anti-semitic is jumping the gun.

To claim that there are no Jews in organised crime is also ludicrous. Are we to believe, that of the whole Russian Mafia organisation, there is not one single Russian Jew involved?

For you to request sources from the writer of this article, and then claim that there are no Jews in organised crime without any evidence whatsoever is hypocritical at best.

Maybe you should look past the end of your nose at the bigger picture before making such serious accusations.

Tom — Preceding unsigned comment added by Highwaytohell (talk • contribs)

The whole of idea of Jews in organized crime is preposterous and ludicrous. There is no such thing. I should know. - Meyer Lansky, Miami, Florida. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.147.200.144 (talk • contribs)

I think he made a joke... (Meyer Lansky = jewish mob boss) freaking idiots! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.250.29.221 (talk • contribs)

i think we should rewrite the article ourselves, take a vote 444 if you want to rewrite, 222 if not.

Russian society was/is a corrupt society. Everyone was involved in some sortr of a criminal enterprise in order to exist. keep in mind that the government in the USSR was the sole supplier of all goods and services. Therefore anyone doing business for themselves had to be involved with some sort of crime. Jews in the USSR were never considered Russians. They were as much or as little involved in organized criminal activities as was everyone else. The article smacks of anti-semitic Russian overtones.

And most importantly the term Russian Mafia is in itself a mismomer. Russian organized crime is a loose amalgamation of criminal enterprises and not the tightly knit "Godfather-like" structure we know as the Italian mafia.

See my book "The Soviet Way of Crime." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.198.91.253 (talk • contribs)

when this article speaks of jewish, it is talking about the ethnicty of jews, not the religion judaism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.44.107.40 (talk • contribs)

As the Friedman describes in some detail in his (not wonderfully credible) book(Red Mafiya), a great many people who were technically ethnically Jewish (though not necessarily culturally) emigrated after the relaxing of Soviet restrictions (which was done with at least some intentions of removing professional criminals). Israeli nationalists (practically by definition Zionist; i.e. supporters of a homeland for the Jewish people, religious or not) were quite happy to help them acquire Israeli citizenship (open to anyone of Jewish ancestry) and some American Jewish organizations similarly helped them to settle within the United States. When claiming to be of Jewish ancestry was a ticket out of the USSR, it's hardly shocking that many people chose to. Friedman relates the rather comic episode of an ethnically Jewish jewel thief from Russia who operated using a disguise as a Chasid (sometimes called in the American press "Ultra-Orthodox"; a term causing no small amount of embarrassment to some Orthodox Jews) and was caught after an airport security worker became suspicious of his flying on Yom Kippur. That seems to me one of the better illustrations of the gap between ethnicity and culture or religion. As for the existence of Russian anti-semitism, that hardly seems open to question, but given that the article states at its beginning that the "Russian" mafia is composed of members from virtually every former SSR, the claims of offensiveness on the basis of Jewish membership seem at best irrelevant. Also, at least in my opinion, the last paragraph is of decidedly dubious quality: it appears to be simple hearsay, which then disclaims its own content, before heading off and making an unverifiable (and astonishingly weak) claim ("it looks like the mafia's power is on the verge of diminishing"). Finally, of course, it is decidedly worthwile to emphasize the decentralized character of the "Mafia". The article as written seems to imply that it is some sort of monolithic entity, almost like a second government, which hardly seems justified. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.17.142.184 (talk • contribs)

GIVE ME A BREAK!!

I have a good amount of knowledge about the subject (no, I'm not a mobster) and I'm gonna write what most Jews and most Russians and most everyone else already knows: The Russian mafia takes ANYONE, be they Russian, Jew, Ukrainian, Chechen, Belarusian, Moldovan, Khazak, etc. And Yes, I'm adding the source, too...and stop bickering, this is not related to anti-semtisim or anything else. Please review my posting and you will see it's true. TALK to me via my IP if u disagree....thanx! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.10.43.83 (talk • contribs)

Yes, the Russian mobsters will take anyone. However, be real. There are very few Jews left in the Russian Union. Monies sent to Israel from Russia may or may not be like monies sent to off-shore accounts from here in the US. Because this is a ==very== ==sensitive== topic, let's be sure we don't imply things that are not so. Turtlemom3 (talk) 22:41, 21 November 2007 (UTC)Turtlemom3

WikiProject

Please see WikiProject Organized crime (proposed) for details on this possible collaborative effort. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MadMax (talk • contribs)

Article name

If the common name for them is "Red Mafia", why are they under Russian Mafia (with somewhat unorthodox capitalization)? -- nae'blis _(talk) 21:06, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

• Ya, a lot of the people in the Russian Mafia are opposed to communism, Red Mafia is not used very often. --GorillazFanAdam 02:33, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Russian Mob

Why is this article titled the Russian "Mafia?" Mafia is Italian organized crime. This article should be renamed "Russian Organized Crime" or "The Russian Mob." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.141.3.45 (talk • contribs)

Because that's what the Russians call them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.116.78.74 (talk • contribs)

• Mafia means the same thing in Russian as in English and Italian, thats why. --GorillazFanAdam 02:28, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean? The Mafia is The Mafia...It doesn't mean anything in Russian. The Mafia is a purely Italian and Sicilian organization. Most people within the Russian Mob would not refer to the Russian Mob as "the Russian Mafia." That is an inaccurate term created by outsiders and the press. I agree that this article should be moved to the "Russian Mob."

I agree that the term Russian Mafia is faux in a legitimate term. The term mafia when used in conjunction with the Russian crime groups is primarily a western media invention. It think it should be renamed and simply have 'russian mafia' redirect to a page titled Russian Mob or something similar. tyx 23:02, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Your reasoning implies that nouns in different languages should only pertain to nouns from the country of origin; which is ridiculous. However, in this specific instance, mafia derives from an Italian reinvention of an Arabic word meaning "sanctuary". Therefore it's direct meaning doesn't make sense in either instance and only by way of additional LEARNED meaning is it given the shape we know it by, and as its used by the Italian Mob (in Italy). Though this doesn't discount it's ability to be used in the same way universally, I feel it would be semantically awkward to do so. In other words Mafia does not mean the same thing as organized crime IN the same way that Uhr means clock in German. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.6.178.86 (talk) 11:19, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I believe accoring to the book "Cosa Nostra" by John Dickie, and many other's I have read on the topic, the term Mafia when capitalized defines specifically Italian and Sicilian Organized Crime Families with a specific structure and culture. However, the mafia when used as a noun can define any form of organized crime that is actually considered "organized" i.e. gangsters in suits, not the ones in L.A. Mike

communism in russian mafia

mafia groups based in the former soviet union are for the most part ex-kgb and ex soviets of some sort spetznaz or what ever and are staunch communists how ever most russian mobsters in america are quite the oppisite they are staunch anti-communists and are very different in ethics and organization to their homeland counter parts, mainly because the russians in america immigrated to get away from communism, soviet mobsters in america were probably also criminals in the gulags of the soviet union. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.166.104.26 (talk • contribs)

The russian word for Mafia is Mafia...imagine that! They use this word for organized crime, corrupt politicians ect.... The correct Italian word IS NOT MAFIA...that is what the west has called it. If you have been to the east or speak russian feel free to debate it. Otherwise, surely you can find more relevant debates on this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.44.251.175 (talk) 04:13, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

John Tillmann

The information related to John Tillmann is being investigated as a possible hoax (or possibly simply a lack of sourcing). See Talk:John Tillmann. studerby 16:29, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Editors decided to delete the John Tillmann article for failing WP:V. No mention appears in LexisNexis and all Google references are circular back to Wikipedia. The claimed supporting reference, the Yorke book also fails verification. The book's ISBN was invalid, and the book could not be found in any of several databases where it should. The only editor who had contributed to the article did not provide any additional reference material, but kept attempting to blank the John Tillmann article. Studerby 13:55, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

arms dealing

how come the russian mafias extensive arms dealing operations are not mentioned at all, including how they arm terrorist groups and allegedly have business interests in nuclear proliferation not to mention political insurgency in chechnia these things are so important and we see them every day on the news yet none of this is mentioned here. the russian mob of course isnt mentioned on the news but everything they have a hand in is where do you think terrorists and guerillas get their kalishnikovs? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.166.104.26 (talk • contribs)

The black market perhaps? Its not just the russian mofia that gun run, they are actually a small part of it! Drew1369 21:22, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know where terrorists and guerillas get thier kalashnikovs. But I'd like to emphasize that OEM production of AK is much less than licensed and unlicensed / illegal production all over the world (i.e. beyond the bounds of Russia or FSU).Aebulos 19:08, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

they get their arms from the west (germany, uk, ...)

I don't know about the UK or Germany supplying arms, but it's well known that a large majority of arms to criminal organizations (and also sold by) and even terrorist groups comes from the de facto country Transnistria. tyx 23:02, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Threat to word law enforcment

I think the mobs treats to international securaity and Unbelievible power and vastness should be more predominetly mentioned this is A horrible brutle Dangerus international organisation Proboly headed by Putten himself. --J intela 19:31, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Proboly what you say is bullshit

Comment removed from article

Using the term "Russian Mafia" is grossly misleading and insulting to the readers intelligence.

Wake up to reality guys, the Criminal Organization known as The Mafia is Italian.

Ive even noticed a Minority of Journalists have described Criminals from All over Eastern Europe and at times who mostly act as individual Specialists as "Russian Mafia"

Even Law enforcement are removing the term "Russian Mafia".

“Russian mafia” gave place to “Eurasian criminality” 13.12.2006

The new tendency was reported by the head of the Russian National central bureau, Timur Lakhonin at a press-conference held in Moscow on December 12.

According to his report, it can be now said for sure that the term "Russian mafia" has almost disappeared from lexicon of international police organizations. "Our partners we closely interact with mark nowadays that the term "Russian mafia" has started to disappear from lexicon giving place to another expression – "Eurasian criminality", which is closer to modern realities". By this expression it is meant criminality from Eastern Europe and countries of the former USSR, - as the head the Russian Interpol bureau commented. Timur Lakhonin also adds that the term "Russian mafia" has now been almost out of usage amongst the Interpol professionals. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.2.2.86 (talk • contribs)

Misleading Generalization

This statement is a misleading generalization and should be removed, "Foreign companies pay up to 20% of their profits to the Mafia as the on-going price of doing business in Russia."

Mermise 12:32, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

85.141.153.66 04:55, 8 November 2007 (UTC) Agreed, absolutely.

Has anyone but me noticed

that this WHOLE ARTICLE is unsubstantiated fear-mongering propaganda crap? Maybe it should go into the deletion queue. --76.217.81.172 09:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Do agree. A wild cross of in somewhat informative stuff and hollywood-based stream of biases. Aebulos 19:20, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

exactly! it is not an encyclopedia but a (bad) newspaper article. into the deletion queue!

Most articles on Wikipedia could be improved, but why on earth would you want to delete this one? It is a rare bit of factual information (however incomplete) about an important but obscure topic. Kipwatson 04:33, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, I do agree that it could be improved a lot, and I do mean a LOT, because it seems to have no real official or reliable sources of any kind, but there should still be a reliable article on Russian organized crime. Mike —Preceding unsigned comment added by GalahadGuy90 (talk • contribs) 22:02, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Use of the word 'Mafia'

Mafia originated as a word approximately meaning 'cool' in Sicily, and the proper name for the Sicilian Mafia is actually Cosa Nostra ('our thing'). Popular use of the word has resulted in many ethnic criminal groups round the world to be known as mafia, even though this is technically inaccurate. In Russia we call it various names including the Bratva (brotherhood). However mafia is also used, and seems to be the most commonly known international term for Russian organized crime. Since there is no real traditional sort of style of organized crime crime in Russia giving rise to some unique name such as the yakuza or triads, I think using Russian mafia in this context is appropriate enough.

"Since there is no real traditional sort of style of organized crime crime in Russia ...I think using Russian mafia in this context is appropriate enough ". 

Well, it may derive another conclusion: there is no Russian Mafia at all. There is corruption, some sort of separate gangs, some kind of thieves' Code, etc. Still, would you rise the term British Mafia upon reading Dickens?

Again, I think the term Mafia began as more of a cultural phenominon rather than a criminal one. The term Mafia (notice the capitalized M) can be used to describe the organization Cosa Nostra, or the Italian and Sicilian cultural phenom, in which case it means not so much "cool", but more "manliness" or a sense of independence. It refers to the idea that a man takes care of his own problems and does not necessarily rely on a government to handle his business. However, the term mafia, when lower case, and thus a common noun and not a proper noun, refers to white collar crime. Mike

This article is in a great need of editing...

...to at least weed out unproven and largely false bits.

Just from the fast look:

- An estimation of "direct and indirect" members numbers... No source, no "neutral" point, as it is feels very much the "wow scary russian mofia, i've seen it in movie" sort.

- "appears to be organised in simillar ways as the KGB" - what a ....bollocks. Organized crime gangs are organized more or less the same all around the world. it's 15 years there aint no KGB even! Again no source, no neutral (or other) points of view, abovementioned "encyclopedic" style.

- Shutov family created a black market in Russia. What en encyclopedic fact (again no source btw)! They also invented nuclear bomb and caused famine in Afrika, you know.

- "thieves in law" aka "vory v zakone" are actually an old, soviet generation of criminals. Where the after-USSR-fall mobsters had denyed this tradition (there was, actually, thieves' law of sorts the same as italian mafia unwritten codex).

- about "to crack the mafia in recent years" again weak statement. It is more about cracking the "rampant violence" part and various, difficult to study processes of evolution such as "whitening" of former (or not-so-former) crime lords.

Bah that's not the big part of it. I really wish I had time to write a full article on a topic as interesting and deep as this. Because what is now here is unadequate. Worse yet, I, as Russian, find it offending in a sence of "we have wild bears roaming Moscow".

I am neither mobster nor crime's advocate, quite the opposite. But nor do I like a compilation of (supposedly western culture?) urban\Holywood myths in place of encyclopedic article on an important and sencitive topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.141.153.66 (talk) 05:22, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

__it is called " vor vzakoni " thief in law and always has been —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.185.136.241 (talk) 16:58, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

What "it is"? "Vor v zakone" is, strictly speaking, a title among Russian criminals, normally delegated by others of the caste (Altrough it is not unheard of for a criminal to proclaim himself "vor v zakone" without the approval of other "thieves in law", but depending on the situation and local power of actual thieves in law this may not be good for one's health) Media often mistakengly brands "a famous vor v zakone" any highly known criminal. So "it is" is some generalisation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.140.136.29 (talk) 15:38, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Above makes a good point. I believe the title of Vor v zakone is one similiar to the Italian Mafia's made man. Mike

Quite what I meant (well, if I understand "made man" right:). By the way, I am glad the article now bears many "more clean facts" tags, but who keeps adding up those lanes that made me post this comment in the first place? ("mafia still holds russian business...", "100k mobsters - citation needed but never presented" etc...).

"Beginning in the late 1970s systematically, the Communist bloc began encouraging large numbers of its people to emigrate to the United States and Europe.In 1992 they killed 30 people in one week in Mikhail Gorbachevs reign." In fact, in the late 1970s it was really difficult to emigrate from the USSR or, I believe, any other Communist country. People were waiting for their leaving permits for years and many could never gain them (the отказники, "those to whom (visa) is refused" - mostly Jews who wanted to emigrate to Israel - were a great part of the Dissident movement). And, of course, Gorbachev did not reign in 1992! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.124.238.43 (talk) 22:48, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

NO, YOU GIVE ME A BREAK!

First, the origin of the word mafia is unknown. You can say, "It means manly" or, "It means cool" (yes, the Fonz would be proud) but all you're doing is speculating. As it is with a lot of words that we use more than once in our lifetime, we don't really know where it came from. If you reeeeaaaally need to know, just give up and go watch reruns of Matlock.

Second, the definition of the word mafia varies from dictionary to dictionary, country to country, rabies-infected Wikipedia contributor to rabies-infected Wikipedia contributor. But as most of us can agree, the term "mafia" refers to a multi-national criminal enterprise. And while someone might note that the term Mafia refers to Italian organized crime and should not be affixed to any other nationality, I would note that it's too late. There's an Albanian Mafia, a Russian Mafia (as you have noticed), and there was even a Jewish Mafia of sorts. So stop arguing, because saying that we have to change the title to Russian Mob isn't going to make the term Russian Mafia dissapear from the planet.

Third, about the comment that affixing Mafia to Russian is a misnomer because it's not "Godfather-like": The Godfather was NOT a documentary. And there is no evidence to support that there is a Godfather who rules all of Cosa Nostra. And also, you wrote a book and you can't spell "misnomer"? I'm gonna stick to James Patterson.

Fourth, the Russian Mafia is not all KGB and Russian Special Forces. There are plenty people in the Mafiya who are ex-KGB, but others could be professional thieves, poor people who don't know any other way to live or make a living, guys who just so happen to have access to plutonium-coated lollipops, who knows. Unfortunately, we don't have a lot of information about the Russian Mafia here, and some of it is inaccurate. But not everyone in Russia is involved with a criminal enterprise, even as those who are in the Russian Mafia aren't always the scary-homicidal-Russian-cliche-that-walks-like-a-man (-or-woman).

Fifth, if you're still reading my post, turn off the computer and get some actual real face-to-face human contact. Seriously. Now, I hope I've made you a(smile, b(regain some hope for proper spelling and capitalization on Wikipedia, c(question my sanity, d(question your sanity or, e(discover a love of reading. Regardless, please continue to discuss this and any other topics that catch your eye. I have not intended to offend anyone with this post, and if I have, then I am truly, genuinely sorry that you can't take my crazy awesome editing abilities. Have a nice day. (And the article should talk more about illegal arms dealing.) --Bishop1227 (talk) 14:51, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

"Russian" mafia

It's rather curious how only 8 out of 27 of figures associated with the Russian mafia and listed on the page are Russian, and one of them earned his nickname by having non-Russian features. Over a half of these eight criminal individuals never operated outside Russia, according to their articles. My eyes are rolling in their sockets. What a criminal nation, a true threat to world security. --Humanophage (talk) 16:07, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

no mention of jewish criminals should be made on this page, as it could lead to a pogrom. why fan the flames of antisemitism? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.10.1 (talk) 21:19, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

We deal with verifiability. If the information can be backed with reliable sources, then it should be kept. We can't predict the future. Corvus cornix_talk 22:18, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

i for one support banning the truth if it can lead to immoral consequences. if uneducated lumpenproles start hearing about how the russian mafia is 'really' composed of mainly jews and israelis, how would that benefit the jewish community? ordinary gentiles dont realize that the jewish community is elaborately stratified, with super classes and subclasses, and classes within subclasses; the jewish upperworld would never dream of associating with the jewish underworld. i mean, sometimes in presenting facts ethnic reasons of sheer survival outweigh scientificity and Kantian morality. the brainless skinhead neo-nazis don't need ammo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.131.139.243 (talk) 14:16, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not censored. Corvus cornix_talk 20:11, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Look, the neonazi insurgents have already started propagandizing about the "Judeo-Russian mafia":

www.erichufschmid.net/RussianMafia_RaphaelJohnson_TBR.pdf

http://www.jews-anonymous.org/index.php/crime/35-crime/46-the-judeo-russian-mafia-from-the-gulag-to-brooklyn-to-world-dominion

Why encourage such speculation by referencing Jews and Israeli political ex-refugees within the Russian mob? Such information should be absolutely forbidden for unscholarly outsiders. Releasing such information makes one a virtual accomplice in hate crimes and genocide. Sometimes censorship is necessary to prevent unwholesome possibilities. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.167.225.156 (talk) 12:30, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

What part of Wikipedia is not censored do you not understand? Corvus cornix_talk 19:04, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

They aren't even Jews, actually. Over a half of the bandits listed there are native Caucasians and Central Asians, or are from a totally different region altogether, like the Bulgarian guy. It just doesn't make any sense. --Humanophage (talk) 19:44, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Antisemitic Outrages

Is anyone even paying attention? Authenitcally neo-Nazi hate sites are being used as sources! What the hell is happening here? For instance, look carefully at this cited source:

http://www.doeda.com/mafia.html

What an outrage. How come no one is punishing these anti-Semitic vandals and removing their weird conspiracies and slanders from the page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.10.1 (talk) 04:00, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Time to End Antisemitic Skullduggery

Clearly, the insignificant subset of non-religious Jews involved in the Russian mob is the innocent victims here, not the victimizers. Crime doesn't happen in a social vacuum. Free will and personal responsibility are always used by big business reactionists to explain crime, but such a methodology is faulty. Bloodily enslaved for centuries by rival religionists, what can people expect if a small number of Jews lose their moral intenseness and become disturbed? The next time some emptyheaded christian dolt gets defrauded by Jewish-Russian criminals, they should point the finger of blame solely on themselves. Maybe the obsessive anti-Semites need to step back and osservatore their own authoritarian paternalistic tendencies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.133.1.253 (talk) 23:05, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

List of notable members

I've brought back the deleted list entitled Notable Members. It was deleted by User:Corvus cornix because no sources were cited. But hey, there's a separate article for almost every one of them that clearly states they belong to mafia! The articles should contain such sources, not the list. --Anthony Ivanoff (talk) 22:26, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, no. Bring the sources over here. The reader shouldn't have to go looking all over the place to find sources. Corvus cornix_talk 23:30, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Anthony Ivanoff. All these people are indeed Russian mafia members per sources; and we have separate articles about them.Biophys (talk) 23:20, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

The Russian Mafia... The Russian Mafia... The Russian Mafia...

I think it's a bit silly that every item in the videogame list begins with "The Russian Mafia....". Perhaps someone with editing talent can rectify this or dismiss my objection. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.82.118.119 (talk) 19:47, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Ethnically diverse

Guys, you cant ignore the fact the Russian mafia is ethnicaly diverse. And it has to be written about. The explanation is that the USSR was multi diverse. But it cant be ignored in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.66.230.108 (talk) 10:44, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Sure. Just do not tell that all of them are Jews.Biophys (talk) 22:21, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Look what crawled out of the gutters of racist anti-Semitism. What the heck does "ethnically diverse" mean? Is that a nazi codeword for "bursting with non-Russian Jew vampires"? In fact, this is a slanderous anti-Semitic conspiracy theory. There is not one (authentic, religiomoral) Jew in the blue-blonde Russian mafia, and anyone who says otherwise is a gutter-level anti-Semite and Naziistic bigot. GET REAL NAZI RETARDS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.166.151.45 (talk) 02:31, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Look who just lost the argument via Godwin's law. 67.5.156.119 (talk) 08:18, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

There were and are plenty of Jews in the Russian mafia; they are (or were) formerly Russian nationals who are ethnically Jewish. For instance, see Russian mob's Jewish godfather. --172.132.181.118 (talk) 09:58, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

It's curious that those who deny that the Russian mafia is predominantly non-Russian are constantly trying to accuse their opponents of anti-Semitism, even though no assumption was made by the poster that he were referring to the Jews. Here, I'll try to list the ethnicities of some of the mobsters in the article inexplicably labelled as Russian:

1. Chechen (4/21): Arbi Barayev, Khozh-Ahmed Noukhaev, Ruslan Labazanov, Nikolay "Hoza" Suleimanov; 2. Jewish (6/21): Marat Balagula, Monya Elson, Ludwig "Tarzan" Fainberg, Semion Mogilevich, Yuri Brokhin (googled, no link on Wiki), Boris Nayfeld (googled, no link on Wiki); 3. Other (4/21): Otar "Otarik" Kvantrishvili - Georgian, Zakhar "Shakro" Kalashov - Georgian/Russian, Alimzhan Tokhtakhounov - Uzbek (nicknamed "the little Taiwanese person"), Nik Radev - Bulgarian; Russian (5 or 7/21): Viktor Bout, Vitali Dyomochka, Vladimir Kumarin, Sergei Mikhailov, Vyacheslav "Yaponchik" Ivankov, Vadim Safronov (failed to find through Google, no link on Wiki), Alexander Leshchinskiy (failed to find through Google, no link on Wiki, assassin)

Some possilbe answers

Well i was just passing by, and accidently ran into this article. I was born in the USSR and currently live in one of the former USSR republics. I am not an expert in mafia stuff, however I do possess some information that might cast some light on the things being discussed here.

1. The term 'Mafia' is a surely Western invention. Traditional Italian mafia was an ultimately family-business structure, where the family members were involved in crime and certain families passed their criminal code and power to the descendants. Thus, the term might be misleading, cause in Russia there were no such or similar tradition in criminal world. The proper and accepted term for what is known as 'Russian Mafia' in Russia is OPG (Organizovannaya Prestupnaya Gruppirovka) or Organized Crime Group.

2. There was no organized crime in the USSR. The reason for this was the total and strict government control over the state. Organized crime implies the connection of mobsters with state and police officials since without that link no crime organization could possibly survive. Large scale illigal operations such as mass weapon smuggling or human trafficking leave no chances to be carried on unnoticed by the officials. Thus, both police and mobsters are aware of what is going on.The USSR had gangs and criminals, but they were not 'organized' in mafia or OPG sense. However, the Soviet Union collapse led to a rapid rise of such organizations, which started to build up and spread their control over vast area of the former republics. It was acknowledged that ethnic Chechen mafia was controlling Moscow during Boris Yeltsin presedency. Unfortunately, I don't have any information about the current state of things there.

3. Involvement of jews in 'Russian Mafia'. I think that article should have a split somewhere cause it discusses both Russian Mafia in the US and Russian Mafia in Russia. I can't tell you much about the connection here, but if you can find the immigration statistics as it was said somethere on this page, the key point for immigration to the USA from the former USSR was so called Jewish identity. As it was noted, Brighton Beach might be actually the headquarters of Russian mafia, but ethnically it mostly consists of Soviet Russian-speaking Jews. From that point involvement of Jews in the American Russian mafia could not be just dropped. On the other hand, the situation in Russia is largely different. From numerous paper articles and criminal reports I can say that except of ethnic Russians in Russia, Georgians (natives of the former Soviet republic - Georgia) and Chechens have a serious influence and power in criminal circles.

4. Vor v zakone - as far as I am concerned the Russian word 'Vor' (Thief) has a different meaning in the underground world of Russia. The term 'thief' might be applied to high-ranked criminals not necessarily involved in a theft per se. That might be a killing, smuggling or any other kind of criminal activity. Just recently i've read the web page of a former Russian cop, who served in Russia as a police detective for 6 years. (See Dmitry Puchkov article). According to him, the Western closest analog for 'vor v zakone' is a 'wiseguy'. However, as he points out, they are still not the same. (But similar).

In conclusion, I must say that the article desperately needs an expert attention or, to be precise, two experts. One on Russian mafia in Russia, the other one is on Russian mafia in the USA. Unless then, the article should not be considered as a serious source of information on the subject.

Thank you. Ilya-42 (talk) 18:06, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

"There was no organized crime in the USSR" ... that was a famous Soviet propaganda thesis (like famous phase "there is no sex in the USSR"). Not only we had a highly organized thief society, with their language and traditions, but some scholars argue that the entire country was run by a highly organized criminal organizations called the Communist Party. But this article is indeed in poor shape. It needs a section describing mafia in the USSR.Biophys (talk) 00:04, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Are you sick? --Ilya-42 (talk) 07:32, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

There are plenty of sources about organized crime in the USSR, including a book by Varlam Shalamov who had an extensive first-hand experience with organized criminals in Gulag. The development of criminal society has been promoted "from the above" by classifying criminals as a "socially-friendly" group and using them against the "political" enemy of the people, as described everywhere, starting from Margolin and Solzenitsyn. You should be also familiar with increase of the criminal activity in Russia after WW II (the famous "black cat" gang was only one of thousands examples). There was no much difference between Soviet and Western criminals. In fact, a "thief in law" you are talking about is someone like Vito Corleone, but in the Soviet/Russian setting.Biophys (talk) 16:42, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't even know how to reply to this. You simply don't know what you're talking about. You don't understand what organized crime means. You use memoirs of people openy hostile to the Soviet Union state as reliable sources. Do you understand that their statements were severely loaded with their own attitudes towards the country? Do you understand that when talking about 'socially-friendly' element you should use references to laws, directives and cases issued by state? Do you understand how street gang differs from an organized crime with close ties with government officials? And finally, you comparison of a thief in law with Vito Corleone throws you way down into the crowd of stupid trolls, where you seemingly belong. Here is the tip: if you don't understand something and you don't want to look stupid and embarrass yourself you simply ask. You don't need to demonstrate your complete ignorance on a subject, that looks bad. Just ask. Read some textbooks on criminology to understand what we are talking about here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ilya-42 (talk • contribs) 17:52, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

You should probably read Organized crime article. It provides some helpful information, such as what the organized crime is. Please also follow WP:CIV recommendations. These rules help a lot, really. Very best wishes, Biophys (talk) 00:51, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Also look at Crime in Russia.Biophys (talk) 01:15, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Five-year plans, etc.

It was my understanding that this mafia was "helpful" to plant managers in meeting their "five-year plan" goals. When the plant manager was in trouble because he had production deadlines but his supply of parts was ineffectual, he would turn to the mafia. They would "arrange" for the parts to be delivered.

In turn (because rubles/money meant nothing) he would be asked to place x units on the loading dock on such and such a night. These would disappear and the manager would "write them off." Or maybe they never "officially" got produced! So it was mutual backscratching which, of course, was more beneficial to the mafia, than to the people. But production goals appeared to be met! Student7 (talk) 20:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

The Russian Mafia In Popular Culture

"The Russian Mafia plays a major role in season two of the HBO series, The Wire."

This just isn't accurate. The organized crime group presented in season two of The Wire does not have a clearly defined national/ethnic origin, and only one of its members is understood to be Russian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.99.222.2 (talk) 17:40, 6 August 2008 (UTC)