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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Bmrbarre (talk | contribs) at 23:10, 5 October 2008 (support). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Roman Catholic Church

Nominator(s): NancyHeise talk
previous FAC (16:52, 13 June 2008)
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This article has seen substantial improvement over the past three months. New scholarly sources were added as well as two new sections and an article trim - all in response to concerns from the last FAC. It received a thorough Peer Review with the help of several veteran Wikipedia editors. Over 54 editors, including many non-Catholics, were invited to come give comments during this last peer review. I feel this article is ready now to be listed as Featured and I invite you to offer your comments on the matter here. Thank you for your time and attention. NancyHeise talk 00:18, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support Although size will always be problematic, this is one of the largest and oldest institutions in the world and will probably have some of the largest issues and resources relating to it. So, yeah, it can't be helped. Content seems to be rather complete based on consensus. Formatting seems to be right based on consensus. Consensus has agreed to most of the stuff involved. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:28, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as per previous FAC. This is an article I have watchlisted for sometime now, and have followed its development closely; and I have been dismayed by the hoops set by various reviewers who want ir to be all things to all people. Frankly I though the last FAC was a disgrace, and not because of the nominator. Ceoil sláinte 00:43, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. This is a comprehensive and very informative article on an organisation which has had a significant impact on Western civilisation. Given the size constraints imposed by wikipedia it will never be able to satisfy everyone, but I think it well deserves to be ranked among wikipedia's best articles. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:50, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Support this is what FA's are supposed to look and be like. The current amount of them which fail the criteria is daunting. This article covers all relevant aspects in a great manner, and pretty much references every statement. As one of the dominant religions in the world, it's something that I and others can easily relate to. Well done. I just had one quick question: Could/Should the history section be at the beginning of the article, not half-way through? Domiy (talk) 01:41, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thats not good reasoning Domiy. Ceoil sláinte 01:43, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Don't fret too much. It seems clear that he is supporting over "look and be like" and not the rest. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 01:47, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 'Referencing' and 'Coverage' (my own terms) part of the FA criteria? I'm pretty sure it is, so supporting an article because it covers those two especially well is indeed good reasoning. Need I start on my already raised discussions on how it's clear that some FA's are based on preference? If I was going for the "Look and be like" act then I would have supported and put 'as per previous comments by others' after such. I didn't do that did I? I supported for my own reasons, both personal and criteria-wise (more of the latter). Please read the comments carefully before making your own comments. It's not a rule on Wikipedia, it's a rule of life, one which is kind of hard-and dangerous-to fail. Domiy (talk) 08:02, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Domiy, I am so very much not going to argue with anyone's support vote! NancyHeise talk 13:13, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image comment - I don't feel Image:Das Schwarze Korps Eugenio Pacelli Judenfreund Feind des Nationalsozialismus.jpg is warranted per WP:NFCC#8, and thus the article fails FA criteria 3, otherwise images checkout fine. This is a hugely difficult article to meet FAC#4, because of the age and scope of the subject, dont feel down-hearted if it doent pass. Fasach Nua (talk) 12:21, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Apart from the criterion 8 issue, which is certainly arguable, I would query the non-free nature of this image, which comes from an SS newspaper in 1937. Intellectual property rights of Nazi party material are greatly complicated by the war booty legislation of several countries passed after WW2, when the normal copyrights were abrogated. Generally this material is Government-released to PD in the US, and any remaining copyrights are held by the state in Germany and the UK. So this should be PD in US terms at least, if the scan was made from a US copy. I'm not sure how the terms (length) work in UK & Germany. I'm pretty sure the image status has not been assessed with this in mind. Has this issue come up before on Commons etc? Johnbod (talk) 13:07, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I thought the image was very necessary since Pius XII has presently been called "Hitler's Pope" which would have been a surprise to the people of that age who felt differently according to the scholars whose works I read on the subject before creating the paragraph. The image grabs the reader, makes the page interesting and conveys a message that words cannot begin to approach, most notably by exposing the ugly racism of the Nazi regime. I have asked a veteran Wikipedia image expert to come and offer her comments in this matter so maybe that will help resolve the issue here. Thanks. NancyHeise talk 13:35, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support - I reviewed the sourcing at the PR and it is better. Meets the standards. I spot checked some of the sourced statements against the sources, and all are as accurate as can be when you are paraphrasing. I read through the whole article and made a huge pile of suggestions, which were implemented when they did not conflict with other reviewers. The article is within hailing distance of being a decent size, it's cut almost 3000 words in the PR. No article on this subject is going to please everyone, but it's vastly improved since the first time it came to FAC, and I have no hesitations supporting. It goes without saying the sources seem fine, and the links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:57, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment, just to be picky:
in Catholic institutions, personnel and demographics, I don't understand what is meant by "women religious" in the sentence "The Church in Asia is a significant minority among other religions yet its vibrance is evidenced by the large proportion of women religious, priests and parishes to total Catholic population"
in Late Medieval and Renaissance, en-dashes are used in "anti–Catholic" and "Counter–Reformation", which should be hyphenated.--Grahame (talk) 13:56, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Your dictionary should help, although this should be made clearer for those unfamiliar with the term. Johnbod (talk) 13:59, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Grahamec, good comments here. I changed "women religious" to "religious sisters" to make this clearer and I eliminated the ndashes replacing them with hyphens. Thanks for your time and attention. NancyHeise talk 15:29, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment in the section Ordained members and Holy Orders there is a reference to priests and bishops conducting "wake and funeral services" I've only been to one Catholic funeral, but I thought the wake was a less formal matter conducted in the pub rather than the church, would memorial or remembrance be less ambiguous? ϢereSpielChequers 22:08, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi WereSpielChequers, thanks for the inquiry. Yes, "wake and funeral services" is correct as it is the term used by the reference (United States Conference of Catholic Bishops) to which the sentence is cited. I'll reproduce it for you here so you can see for yourself [1]. NancyHeise talk 22:42, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Further questions Reading the final judgment and afterlife section, I wanted to ask a few additional questions. In Marria Simma's book "Get us out of here", she states that souls often judge themselves after death. Instead of being sent by Jesus to purgatory or hell, they rather make the decision for themselves. Those who believe in God strongly and did follow in his command in earthly life automatically know they should go to Heaven, and hence are sent there. Poor souls in Purgatory are similar. Although they were followers of God, they did sin excessively throughout their life and hence do not feel that they are worthy enough of Heaven just yet, so they decide for themselves to be purified in purgatory. Those who go to hell are completely lost in faith and never believed in God and deliberately went against him throughout life. They go to Hell themselves as they would like to continue their evil ways and surroundings. It's all in the book I stated, I just don't remember the page number (Oops!). Additionally, how come the article doesn't include anything about apparitions? They indeed do have relevance to the Catholic church as they must be passed by it to be considered true. And there have been a fair number of them throughout recent history. Maria Simma again actually spoke to the souls in Purgatory, and this is a fundamental belief in the church. The same goes for the ongoing decisions regarding the apparitions of the Virgin Mary in Medjugorje, Bosnia and Herzegovina. Why have you not at least mentioned the process for this? Domiy (talk) 22:49, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That seems to be an idea similar to Contrapasso. However, there is nothing on the Catechism or in Aquinas that really supports the above. It would also deny the power of prayer in saving the departed. I would like a link to where the Catholic Church has reviewed the work and approved of it. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:04, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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