Talk:Chachapoya culture

more info

http://www.eugenicsarchive.org/eugenics/image_header.pl?id=733&printable=1&detailed=0 <-- talks about blond indians.. it's from the American Philosophical Society published in 1925. these were from panama though.. haven't bothered to see whether it's the "cloud people" though interesting to note that on the first sighting when they were seen they were seen when flying under a cloud bank.. :)

probably Injuns raped by pillaging Spanish thugs during the colonial days.

CHACHAPOYAS ARTICLE

This article is disappointing for its regurgitated and unoriginal repetition of the same tired Garcilaso and Cieza "ethnohistoric" sketches that lack substantive detail. Both authors wrote decades after the conquest, and neither reported ever personally seeing a so-called Chachapoya native. "Warriors of the Clouds" is the name of a book, not the name of the people(s). There is no scientific information in this article, although lots of sound scientific information, especially archaeologal information, is available. Finally, opinions on "Origins" and cultural affiliations of the so-called Chachapoya are divided, and this article presents only the minority opinion of one scholar, Federico Kauffmann Doig.Craneando (talk) 04:44, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not disputing the article may require a certain amount of improvement, but I do think the Chachapoyas Culture warrants a separate article of its own, rather than being merged with the Cultures of Inca Empire, or any other article.KevinOKeeffe 07:22, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

This seems to be a bad translation from the Spanish. It needs a great deal of copy-editing. Mumblio 06:19, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

NPOV?

The mystery of the Chachapoyas is that based on their mummified remains, they appear to be of at least partially Europoid, or European-like, physical type: "The Chachapoyas were a tall, fair-haired, light-skinned race that some researchers believe may have come from Europe...[source: Fox News report]

However as this is at odds with standard theories of the settlement patterns of the New World, it remains unmentioned or is downplayed in much scholarship and reporting."

I take offense at the word "downplayed". The whole issue is rather overplayed in pop-sci/media reports it seems. There is no information that the Chacapoyas were actually europid in appearance, only that they had lighter skin and hair than the Inca. Whether the latter was a natural condition or due to bleaching/dyeing is unknown. And "lighter skin" than the (rather dark-skinned, as usual wirh mountain dwellers) Incas does not mean much either. Skin color is too variable to be of use in human population studies; for example dark skin is a paraphyletic trait in Africans and Inuit (and probably Tibetans too), and that Japanese and Europeans appear fair-skinned is also paraphyletic. What was described by the conquistadores was probably nothing but the fact that not all "Indians" look alike.

Besides, it is not just "at odds with standard settlement patterns..." There is a science called biogeography, y'know? Basically, the presence of europids in the W Andes is at odds with any theory that does not include Atlantis, alien abductions or a hollow earth etc. IF indeed the Chacapoyas were exceptionally light-skinned by general standards, this is almost certainly a reflection of East Asian heritage... but even this scenario would be highly unlikely. Dysmorodrepanis 14:37, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know of any scholar who claims a European origin of the Chachapoyas. This just seems to be media hype/misunderstanding due to the fact that Chachapoyans may have been taller or of fairer complexion than other Andean tribes. It builds on a similar naive assumption that used to permeate speculations about the Maya having a connection to the Egyptians solely due to the fact that they had pyramids, et cetera.

I don't disagree with the information you entered, but I don't think it's really necessary to include a refuting statement. Too many Wikipedia articles have that kind of overcompensation. I would simply state that differing physical features (and the unique culture) of Chachapoyans have led to various conjectures about their origins or external influences upon them, referencing early chroniclers, other reports etc. Technically, the jury is still out on that. To get into the business of their actual origins, some DNA analysis is in order, but I haven't seen any studies on it. There does seem to have been more post-invasion European admixture in the general region more than others - perhaps this is the source of some of the speculation. Twalls 22:06, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

As you might have noted, I added/redid the parts in the article to put the "anomalities" into a larger context. Thanks BTW for confirming my suspicions that DNA analysis is still pending (with the latest mummy cache discovered, it should not be too long to wait). The issue is all over the news these days, and if the pop sci explanation sticks, it might warrant a more extensive discussion on WP. Else, one can just let it rest until research comes up. Dysmorodrepanis 18:28, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I've searched around quite a bit and have even asked people who would be in the know. As far as I know, there have been no DNA studies as of yet. Even that may not settle many questions, because you're limited to the results of individual samples you take. The thing is, the journalists doing the research for their pop-sci articles may even look here in the WP for background info. Hopefully they'll walk away with some accurate information! For the time being, let's try to make the article coherent, consistent and useful. Cheers, Twalls 20:01, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Your point with the background research thing was exactly my motivation too :) I will keep my eyes peeled on DNA stuff that might be interesting for the qestion, and other such things. Dysmorodrepanis 01:44, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Cieza de León

From the article:

Contemporary reports such as that of Cieza de León [are there ANY other?] only indicate that they did have lighter skin than other Native Americans of the region, and it is not clear how reliable these statements are.

I'm removing the bracketed comment from the article because it's inappropriate, but it could make a good Talk topic. Does anyone have information? Ubermonkey 19:55, 13 January 2007 (UTC)