Jump to content

Talk:Republic of Ragusa

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Rag. Historian (talk | contribs) at 10:40, 10 December 2008. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

WikiProject iconFormer countries Unassessed
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). If you would like to participate, please join the project.Former countriesWikipedia:WikiProject Former countriesTemplate:WikiProject Former countriesformer country articles
???This article has not yet received a rating on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
WikiProject iconCroatia Start‑class High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Croatia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Croatia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CroatiaWikipedia:WikiProject CroatiaTemplate:WikiProject CroatiaCroatia articles
StartThis article has been rated as Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Questions

On the picture displaying the coat of arms I counted 54 of them however under the rubrique of "patrician families" only 25 are listed. Could anyone clarify this discrepancy? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.243.74.11 (talk) 18:36, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Article name

In the book of Robin Harris "Dubrovnik - A history" (ISBN-13: 978-0863563324), the author uses the name "Dubrovnik". Also, the other toponyms are in Croatian. Similar is with personal names. Kubura 07:41, 4 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, it uses the name "Dubrovnik" throughout the whole book, not just in the title (I've been able to see the book in the bookshop). Kubura 07:27, 5 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And why not, because today the name of Dubrovnik is internationally accepted. But in his book Dubrovnik: A History, the British author Robin Harris sets out, in his own words, to create for the first time “a modern, well-sourced and readable account of the history of the Ragusan Republic” (p. 17). see here --DaQuirin 13:13, 4 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
PS: It would be fine to have a break in this fruitless discussion! Please end the naming dispute for a while and try to improve the article (maybe with the help of this interesting, probably balanced book)... --DaQuirin 13:16, 4 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

His book is translated into Croatian also (in 2006). It's titled "Povijest Dubrovnika", ISBN: 953-212-257-5. Kubura 07:16, 5 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Naming dispute is important thing, DaQuirin. Maybe this naming thing sounds and looks like a comical funny nagging of a small eternally unsatisfied balkanic tribe, but all imperialistic attempts/actions started with such things. When you belong to a big nation, you don't see and recognize such things. But when you belong to a small nation, you recognize the sh*t coming.
To make it more "closer" to you, DaQuirin, why don't you try to provoke the French and Belgians with writing the historical articles on en.wiki (concerning their countries) with toponyms in German? Or the Poles. Try to write the article about the "Warschau getto".Kubura 07:27, 5 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In previous discussions, it was stated again that "Ragusa" is not Italian or Croatian, but Ragusan-Dalmatian. On the other hand, in my opinion the mentioned toponyms (of smaller places, villages) should be transformed to Croatian forms. Maybe some people here could find a compromise here. --DaQuirin
Present territorial claims (are there such Italian claims for Dubrovnik today?) are not under discussion here. You may include this topic into the Dubrovnik article. The dominant use in academic research ("Republic of Ragusa") is undisputed in all major Western countries. --DaQuirin 11:22, 5 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

DaQuirin, have you followed the discussion here? Have you seen the categorization attempts? Giovanni Giove insisted on categorizing this article as "Reppubliche Marinare of Italy", althought this city never belonged to Italy, neither during WWII.
If you don't know, even today, on Italian universities, there're works (available on the Internet), that speak about the "reitalianization of Eastern Adriatic coast". These works are in Italian. At last, neither a year ago, there were few severe diplomatic incidents, because of things said and done by Italian high officials. Veeeery high ones. I'll dig you the links later (with short translations what they've said and done).
"Undisputed dominant use"? Hey, wait! Slow down. You say "it's undisputed and dominant", just like that? How can you say something like that? Look at the archive of this article, in United Nations' material, which dealt with the attempt of Serbo-Montenegrin aggressors, in which they tried to "establish" (puppet) state of Republic of Dubrovnik (indictment against Milošević), that'll be "under their protection"?
In 19th century, international sources (mostly western ones) used term "Ragusa" more often. But, this is not 19th century. Many things have changed since then. As I gave you the example, in contemporary English language, the name "Dubrovnik" is exclusively used, when referring to Dubrovnik. At last, no tourist guide takes you to "Ragusa in Croatia", but to Dubrovnik in Croatia. Kubura 19:22, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is not the article about Dubrovnik but the article about a historical state. I don't want to go into our earlier discussion again - with one exception: Your remark concerning the UN document was exactly not referring to the historical Republic of Ragusa/Dubrovnik but to a new political entity that the Serbs wanted to create during the Croatian War. Therefore, the argument is completely misleading (again, we discussed all this before!). You are putting present political arguments into the discussion how to name this article referring to the historical state that ended its existence in 1808 under the self-styled name of "Republic of Ragusa". --DaQuirin 20:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Self-styled name? Here's a scanned page from the book from Dubrovnik from 1747. Printed in Venice.
To check catalugue search results, see here [1] (enter the text content into the "author" box, if the "title" box fails to give results).
The book is categorized under: Eshatology, Death (Christianity), Croatian rare books 18th c.
Here, I repeat the things I've wrote previously (15 May 2007) in the section "The name of the country", in the archived page.
Here's the link from HAZU.
It confirms the name of the country in Croatian, as well as that the name of language is Croatian.
"Pokripglenie umiruchi, za dobro i sveto pochi umilosti Boxioi sovoga svita / iztomaçeno, i skupgleno pria po Don Luczi Terzichiu. Koie da boglie, i upraunie izgovara u haruaski iezik; popravi i pristampa po ozcu P. Fra Bernardinu Paulovichiu iz Dubrovaçke Darssave ... Dedicato a sua eccellenza Simon Contarini .... - U Mleczi : Po Bartalu Occhj, 1747." Scan of the first page [2].
The translation is "...in order to better be spoken in Croatian, fixed and reprinted by father fra Bernardin Pavlović from the country of Dubrovnik...".
Few interesting lines from that page are "Jod istoga nadostagliuni mnogi i rasliçiti Blagosovi, i Druge Stuari Svete, i Kriposne za korit Naroda Harvasckoga Kakose moxe viditi nassuarsi isti knigat".
Here's the second edition. [3] and the scan of an internal page [4]. Kubura 06:15, 9 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Here. [5].
"The settlement of Dubrovnik was first mentioned in written records by an anonymous cosmographer of Ravenna in 667. Known in Latin as Ragusium, it was long known by its Italian name, Ragusa, before its Croatian name Dubrovnik (from Dubravka, «forest of oaks») acquired general acceptance. ".
The source is United Nations - Security Council - "Final report of the United Nations Commission of Experts established pursuant to security council resolution 780 (1992), Annex XI.A, The battle of Dubrovnik and the law of armed conflict". Kubura 14:19, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

List of names "After the fall of the Republic"

This part of the list (no citizens of the republic!) should be removed, it belongs instead to the Dubrovnik article. --DaQuirin 11:36, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the proposal was NO CONSENSUS to move article. There has been strong evidence presented that "Republic of Ragusa" is the name most commonly used in English language sources. Per our naming conventions, we aim to reflect common English usage.

I would further remark that this is not a good way to set up a move discussion. Structuring the conversation as a vote is detrimental to consensus-building discussion. There's no need for separate sections, nor for numbered lists. The discussion template used to look like that, and we changed it for a reason. -GTBacchus(talk) 20:26, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Republic of Ragusa→ Republic of Dubrovnik Dubrovnik is name very well known around the world. The majority of the population have always been Slavic speakers.Ragusa is just Latin name ,which many countries had during the middle ages, unknown by anybody except Italophones.Today is convention that are beeing used native names of the cities, not borrowings from "world languages" of the colonizers. So it is Beeijing, Kalimantan, Sulawesi not Peking ,Borneo, Celebes. Last name were always most famous during the fact that languages of colonizers were more widespread

I question the validity of this poll discussion since many of the votes points are based on rather lopsided canvassing by User:Aradic-en (an almost single use account) at Croatian Wikipedia. (Examples here, here, here, here, and here among others. See hr:Posebno:Contributions/Aradic-hr for complete list.) I don't personally oppose canvassing but it should ideally target all previously interested parties and should occur at English Wikipedia in English. — AjaxSmack 19:48, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

Survey - Support votes

  1. Support - as the nominator.--Anto 08:42, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support - Explained above. Also, terminology solution from 19th century isn't always good for 21st c. (obsolete, wrong, unaccurate). Dubrovnik was term used by its majority Croat population (in concerned centuries, centuries during independence - see the archive, section "Croathood of Dubrovnik and translations" (contains links to scanned pages of 16th, 17th c. books). Last, but not the least, Croat parties won the elections there, in 19th c., during Austria-Hungary. Croatian was official there also, so the name "Dubrovnik" was official during 19th c.. Kubura 19:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support - as per nominator's rationale. Though the "Republic of Ragusa" should be preserved in the article for informational and historical purposes. --Raguseo 20:40, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support - already explained. Zenanarh 13:32, 9 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support- nothing else to say, explained above...--Drozgovic 20:43, 9 October 2007 (UTC) -This is the third edit of this user. (DaQuirin)[reply]
  6. Support - Edgar Allan Poe
  7. Support- The Republic of Ragusa does possess some historical weight, but- where would we have been had we insisted on Cathay, heathen Chinee, Muscovy, ...Mir Harven 16:16, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Support - Dvorsky 15:54, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Support- Mir Harven nicely put it above, Ragusa is mentioned in history books, but also is Muscovy. There are more examples of such naming, but what for? As time passes, some names are forgotten, and to insist on archaic name on any article is simply to deny Wikipedia users easy understandable information. So support per WP:COMMONNAME SpeedyGonsales 17:23, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Support - If we were certain "Ragusa" was the name used at the time of the Republic, we would be obliged to use it. However, we must remeber that with a majority Slavic population (beyond question - see Mauro/Mavro Orbini, for example), the actual local name even in those days would have been "Dubrovnik", therefore the (Latin) name "Ragusa" truly is comparable with "Cathay" and other archaic names. It has strong contemporary historic backing, but is actually incorrect. We must remember that, after all, the actual accuracy of Wiki content (such as this) is of the utmost importance, it supercedes even the frequency of use. DIREKTOR (TALK) 18:54, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • The current local name is utterly irrelevant in this case; English Wikipedia should use English per WP:UE. We use Albania, not Shqiperia, and Montenegro, not Crna Gora, even though the two are Italian because they are also English. I wouldn't presume to go to Croatian Wikipedia and demand changing hr:Engleska to England because Engleska is copied from the Serbs or is archaic or is not the native name. — AjaxSmack 05:46, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • When you mention Serbs. As I see, we don't stick to the rules here. District of Syrmia (the name used in English) is called "Srem district" here, but the "Split-Dalmatia County" is called here under that name, not as "Split-Dalmacija County". However, the old Republic is named after a city, and no guide in English knows Ragusa, but Dubrovnik. Kubura 14:00, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • AjaxSmack, I think we may have a misunderstanding. The current name IS inded irrelevant when discussing a 200-year old Republic. However, the name "Republic of Dubrovnik" was used 200 years ago as well, by the vast majority of the population, no less. Moreover the name for the city in the English language is, after all, not "Ragusa", but "Dubrovnik". (Kubura, take it easy, there is no "Serb conspiracy" on Wiki...) DIREKTOR (TALK) 14:49, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Note: DIREKTOR changed his opinion to "oppose". - Ev 01:46, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  10. Support - Using common name like argument is not accepted for rule on Wikipedia. Examples for this statement are articles John VIII Palaiologos, Manuel II Palaiologos , John V Palaiologos ... English common name for this dynasty is Palaeologus but we have made decision to use local Greek name. Because of this there is no reason for not using local name for Dubrovnik. --Rjecina 20:09, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Survey - Oppose votes

  1. Oppose In English-speaking (and in all major Western) countries, "Republic of Ragusa" is the correct name used for the historical state (which was the official name of the state during its existence). The name of the modern city is of course Dubrovnik. --DaQuirin 11:29, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Oppose and agree with DaQuirin. Although "Republic of Dubrovnik" is used in English, "Republic of Ragusa" is the more common terminology. Olessi 13:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Oppose and agree with DaQuirin. BTW the "real" name does not tell us anything about the "nationality" of the Republic (if this concept make sense, in the present case).--Giovanni Giove 15:11, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Oppose and agree with DaQuirin. "Republic of Ragusa" is far more common in publications in English and Dutch (the languages that I read most literature in) and probably in most other languages, except perhaps in the South Slavic ones (this is not an offence!), which may explain this dispute. I know it is not a good argument, but if you take a look at the interwiki links, you see that almost all wikipedias in other languages call it the "Republic of Ragusa". Maarten 10:41, 9 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Oppose. I doesn't matter what the majority of speakers are or were. The English name of the state is Republic of Ragusa and this should be the title per WP:UE. (By analogy, the majority of Chinese speak Chinese but the article for People's Republic of China is not at People's Republic of 中国.) Furthermore, applying the tenets of nationalism to the pre-national era is a bit messy. — AjaxSmack 03:30, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. Not much to be said, really. Duja►
  7. Oppose I see nothing here to suggest that the normal usage, as attested by Black Lamb and Grey Falcon, has been, or should be, changed. Dubrovnik is used in English as the name of the modern city, not of the Republic. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:29, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Oppose Historically the designation for this state has almost always been "Republic of Ragusa", and the Italian name is still the most common form used nowadays when referring to the Republic (in the English language). Húsönd 03:42, 13 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Just a little comment - Ragusa is Dalmatian, not Italian. Dalmatian is not Italian. Zenanarh 08:04, 13 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Oppose per all above. Our general naming conventions and the specific ones on using English & for geographic names require us to follow common English usage: "[i]f you are talking about a [...] country, [...] use the most commonly used English version of the name for the article, as you would find it in other encyclopedias and reference works."
      In other words, we're asked to passively refect the names with which most English-speakers are already familiar, instead of actively promote the adoption of the forms we prefer.
      It is my personal perception that "Republic of Ragusa" is the form commonly used in English-language publications, and the opinions above & AjaxSmack's examples below seem to confirm it.
      So far this discussion has failed to even suggest that this usage has changed. Of course, if at some point in the future "Republic of Dubrovnik" becomes the common English form, then, and only then, this article should be renamed accordingly. - Ev 22:31, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  10. Oppose. Sorry guys, but to be fair, AjaxSmack is right: "Republic of Ragusa" is a lot more common than "Republic of Dubrovnik" in modern English publications. I conducted a little web research of my own and it is strikingly obvious that the former is used uncomparably more. Because of this I decided to change my vote. It would be wrong to vote both against one's conscience and Wikipedia policy. DIREKTOR (TALK) 00:57, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

The nomination does not present significant evidence that "Republic of Dubrovnik" has replaced "Republic of Ragusa" for the historical state in English usage.

I don't have time for extensive research on the subject at this time but, in addition to Robin Harris's Dubrovnik: A History mentioned above here are just a few English works that use "Republic of Ragusa" I found on my shelves:

  • H. T. Norris. Islam in the Balkans. 1993
  • Harriet Bjelovučić. The Ragusan Republic: Victim of Napoleon and Its Own Conservatism. 1970.
  • David M. Crowe. A History of the Gypsies of Eastern Europe and Russia. 1996.
  • Bernard W. Lewis. The Muslim Discovery of Europe. 2001.
  • William Miller. The Ottoman Empire and its Successors, 1801-1927. 1966.
  • Alisa Meyuhas Ginio. Jews, Christians, and Muslims in the Mediterranean World after 1492. 1992.
  • Lonely Planet's Eastern Europe travel guide (old edition)

I found "Republic of Dubrovnik" also used in a few:

  • Christopher Bennett. Yugoslavia's Bloody Collapse: Causes, Course, Consequences. 1995.
  • Rick Steves' Best of Eastern Europe travel guide (old edition)

The preponderance of Republic of Ragusa is also reflected in Google Books results (ICBIDT): 698 for "Republic of Ragusa" vs. 297 for "Republic of Dubrovnik".


And, not that its relevant to English Wikipedia, but most other Western European interwikis use variants of Ragusa, too, (e.g., ca:República de Ragusa, de:Republik Ragusa, es:República de Ragusa, fr:République de Raguse, hu:Raguzai Köztársaság, nl:Republiek Ragusa, pt:República de Ragusa) so its not really that unusual.

— AjaxSmack 22:53, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Well, I'm convinced, you appear to be right on this one, Ajax. I'll change my vote. (Hmmm, the "votes" are now even, I'l probably look like some kind of defector for this...) DIREKTOR (TALK) 00:57, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To AjaxSmack's list I would add that "Republic of Ragusa" is used by:

  • The Times Atlas of World History, Fourth Edition, London, 1994, ISBN 0-7230-0534-6, pages 136 & 183.
  • NGS maps: Italy, February 2005 (using "Rep. of Ragusa" in a small map for the year 1492).

Best regards, Ev 02:46, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Sources request for the "Italian language was official" claim

Just because the Ragusian aristocrats spoke both Croatian and Italian, it doesn't make them Italian. Until 1918 the German houses of Baden and Würtemberg only spoke French BUT that doesn 't make the German state Baden Würtemberg a French state. And that's why Ragusa was not an italian state. Italians should therefore stop leering at Ragusa trying to regard it as Italian.


I must respectfully demand that some kind of evidence (RELIABLE source) be brought forth to support the claim that Italian was the official language of the Republic of Ragusa. This keeps up reappearing and I think it's really high time people have a look at the backing behind this statement. DIREKTOR (TALK) 18:59, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


So let us check, for example, the book by Robin Harris "Dubrovnik - A history", to get an answer. Does somebody know what actually happened "in 1492"? As for the requested move, I would like to understand your change of opinion, see [6]. So far, we only know that Croatians prefer "Republic of Dubrovnik". --DaQuirin 19:29, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


sigh* yes, I was young and wild then... ;D I did change my mind for a good reason though. It was because of the simple fact I explained in my vote. While the name "Ragusa" was well known within the city, the name "Dubrovnik" was used by the majority of the people, the Slavs (the upper classes were Romance Dalmatians). Therefore, that name should be considered primary, though I do not particularly mind the current situation.

As for the book, I really would like to see it. Is there any link on the net? I doubt I'll find it in shops around here... DIREKTOR (TALK) 22:24, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


O.K. (letting me think about the Bandwagon effect...) At least, somebody is interested here and asks questions. So here is the mentioned book: Robin Harris: Dubrovnik. A History, London 2003. ISBN 0-86356-332-5 see also [7]. User Kubura told us that the book is also available in Croatian (in 2006) ("Povijest Dubrovnika", ISBN: 953-212-257-5) DaQuirin
Now for the language question. I checked Engel's very old, but interesting book Geschichte des Freystaates R." (Freistaat = Republic). This very old book was published still during the existence of the Republic (Vienna 1807). It has many references of texts going back centuries ago. It contains above all some original documents. For the language situation, he plainly states: The native language (in the recent period) is "Slavonic" (Croatian), but you can easily get along with Italian. Most Ragusans were bilingual, with Croatian being their mother tongue. Nothing new. And for the 'official language': There is a lot of Latin (Treaties, coins), but the relevant question is here, what did they use in their official State papers, protocols etc. I think, this should be most relevant for your question. It seems that until the end, Italian was (but to what degree?) used in the public documents (but again, the Harris book, making full use of the archives, as it seems, will probably give answers). Very interesting is the documented original report of the Ragusan diplomats about their official mission to Constantinople (1792) Giornale del Viaggo etc.. In an introductory remark, Engel explains how difficult the situation was for the Ragusans, they had to pay the regular tribute to the Sultan, were not treated as equal diplomats etc. This aspect of the Republic's history (no full independence) should be more explained in our article. Also it would be interesting to know more about the Republican institutions (and their 'official names'). Just to make it clear: For our name dispute, the language or ethnic issues are not relevant. But let's wait and see, we will find some arbitration in the end and - why not - manage a compromise. DaQuirin


We still can't really verify the source of this claim. I propose we remove all references to an "official" language until we can get to the bottom of this. I don't like it, but this is a pretty outrageous claim as far as Croats are concerned (the Republic is one of the founders of the Croatian language, so to speak) and it appears to be the only way to prevent hostility on this issue. DIREKTOR (TALK) 00:36, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


We can not talk about the presence of Italian language at that time. At that time there was no Italy but Republic of Venice, Republic of Genoa, Kingdom of Naples, Papal State etc. We can say only that there was a presence of Venetian, Toscany or some other Latin-derived language.
Names Italian language and Italians emerged after Risorgimento. Before that nobody from the (what is today ) Italy declared himself as Italian. Neither anybody of named them like that.
For example , Dante always declared himself as Florentin (citizen of Florence ) and his contemporaries called them like that. Whether they were from Rome, Naples , Zagreb , Athens, Paris or Berlin.
--Anto 06:00, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


This is all well known, the claim is that the Venetian language was official. I personally do not consider it possible, but I will accept this if someone can provide me with a (reliable) link where I can verify that Harris clearly states this. Otherwise (or until then) I believe all references to an "official" language (if there even was such a thing) should be removed. DIREKTOR (TALK) 08:26, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


I would consider Italian here (like used in the Ambassadors' Report of 1792), Venetian used as vernacular language (or 'dialect'), not in written texts from Dubrovnik (if anybody knows better, please tell us!). The claim that there were no Italians before the Risorgimente is nonsensical. Engel's book (1807) explains, how "Italians" actually were complaining in 16th-18th century period about the multiple (political, whatever) allegiances of the Republic (le sette bandiere di Ragusa = the seven flags of Ragusa"), thereby demonstrating the smart diplomacy of the Republic... DaQuirin 12:11, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Venetian was used as vernacular (mostly by merchants), that's beyond dispute. The question here is where are the cold hard reliable sources here that support the claim that it was "official"? If there are no verifiable references this should not be included. DIREKTOR (TALK) 14:21, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Once again, my search was in vain, can anyone present a verifiable link that verifies the Italian language (Venetian dialect) was the "official" language of the Republic of Ragusa?
(I TEMPORARILY removed all such claims in anticipation of confirmation.) DIREKTOR (TALK) 23:37, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Why are you coming back again to the "Venetian dialect"? To a certain extent, Standard Italian was used in public documents of the Republic. With foreigners, Ragusans communicated (or had to communicate) in Italian, probably in some dialect form, using Italian or Italian-Venetian as a lingua franca in the region. That's all. It's not that difficult to understand? --DaQuirin 01:14, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Dear DaQuirin, neither Italian neither Venetian Italian were ever lingua franca in Dalmatia. Only small part of Dalmatians were able to speak it and understand it. I've already noticed the same claim in several related articles but it's not objective at all. Only distinguished minority (noble society) used it in some periods and in some occasions and international communication was made mainly by Latin language as elsewhere in half of Europe. Zenanarh 16:47, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


When all educated people (and many ordinary people as well) know a certain second language, we call it a Lingua franca, believe it or not. Ragusans had to communicate with many foreigners, and so they knew Italian, used it in documents etc. etc. Contrary to your blatant nationalism, they were both cosmopolitans and proud of their culture. There is another quote from Engel's book: Ragusans, when confronted with their relation to money, accused of being "deceptive like the Jews or rapacious like the Turks", they would often answer: Non siamo ne Turchi, ne Evrei, ma siamo poveri Ragusani. (We are neither Turks nor Jews, but we are poor Ragusans.) see here --DaQuirin 17:22, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


DaQuirin, there's a difference between an official language and lingua franca. While it is obvious the Ragusan merchants and a part of the upper classes had to speek Italian, they also had to speak Turkish in equal measure (lets also not forget Greek). Will you please stop beating around the bush and bring forth a verifiable (net) source for the "Italian language was official" claim, if you support it, that is. DIREKTOR (TALK) 09:55, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Fernand Braudel is his La Méditerranée et le Monde Méditerranéen a l'époque de Philippe II wrote that there were repeated warnings and remindings to speak Italian in official meetings, and uses that to prove that preferred language was not Italian -- if it was, why people should be constantly reminded that they should talk in Italian? Obviously, language of the citizens was not noble enough for the ruling ones.

--Daniel Nikolic (talk) 13:04, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

About the Italianism of Dalmatia

Talking about the Italianism of Dalmatia is equal nonsence as talking about the Italian spirit of Albania or Ethiopia. Or Claiming that Czech lands are German or Slovakia Hungarian territory.

Dalmatia was occupied/colonized (use the word that you prefer) by Venetian republic . And Italy has no right for the inheritage of Dalmatia. As well as Spain has no right on the inheritage of Mexico , Uruguay , Argentina. or Portugual on Brazilian.Aradic-en --Anto 06:19, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the beautiful architecture of Prague that draws tourists was built at the time when most citizens of Prague were German. Spain has "only" language and colonial architecture in Latin America. Isn't that what heritage is? 99.229.96.231 08:29, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Could you help by providing sources concerning what language was official in the Republic? That's what is discussed at the moment (see the article). DIREKTOR (TALK) 08:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


I will try but you have entire paragraph for it! :) --Anto 12:29, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


(never mind the article, its a huge mess) We need reliable sources about the official language of the Republic in the period after 1492. DIREKTOR (TALK) 13:22, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Dubrovnik was cosmopolitan city settled by Croats who were using all languages of the known world at that moment, but in the senate it was Ragusan, later Croatian too I think but I'm not sure. I'm sure it was not Italian, why would it be? Using of Italian was much more a kind of fashion because of Italian reinnesance influence on all Europe, but it was far away from official. A reliable source is travelling to me by post next days, I'm hardly waiting. Zenanarh 23:47, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Congradz, Zen. Maybe you can finally end this matter. DIREKTOR (TALK) 00:51, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I wrote this before, see the archive.
It was the case around the Europe, where the feudal lords and higher classes spoke other language, to distinguish themselves from the lower classes.
E.g., in Italy, see the case in ...Piedmont, if I remember well. There, their intellectuals spoke French, as opposing to lower classes that spoke Italian. Kubura (talk) 10:38, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dubrovnik should be called Ragusa

Oh please...the only official name for Switzerland is "Confoederatio Helvetica" just as the only official name for Dubrovnik was "Res Publica Ragusina". And yet Dubrovnik remains Dubrovnik just as Switzerland is Switzerland or Svizzera or Suisse or Scheiz or Schwyz or whatever... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.243.74.11 (talk) 17:32, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]


What are you people talking about?? You all know nothing about Dubrovnik, Ragusa, it's history and present! You are discussing about changing the name of the article into "Republic of Dubrovnik" which is absolutly incorrect! Before the 1806., when the army of France penetrated into the wals of Dubrovnik, the city was called Dubrovnik only by the Slavs who lived outside the borders of the Republic. But the people who lived in the city called it Ragusa. The official name of the state was RES PUBLICA RAGUSINA and if you want to change that, you want to change history and that can not be done. In fact, article in croatian wikipedia about this subject is wrong and should be changed into "Republika Ragusa". I am telling all this as a historian and the citizen of Dubrovnik!

And you are... Zenanarh 17:05, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As a native of Dubrovnik I doubt you are one too. --Raguseo 15:58, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

ma ne seri —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.44.240 (talk) 17:55, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Giovanni Giove 08:46, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Language ?

The discussions in the article about the language and literature are inconsistent and misleading.

quote 1: "the modern Croatian language was standardized on the base of the Shtokavian dialect"

So was Serbian, so what was the point?

quote 2: "The Ragusan literature in which Latin, Italian and Croatian languages coexisted blossomed in the 15th and 16th century"

Can that language at that time be called Croatian ?

quote 3: "a part of the Illyric literature ... written before the development of the Croatian standard language"

Judging by this quote, the standard Croatian language isn't developed yet.

quote 4: "The Ragusan works were written by the same people or writing circles, which wrote indifferently in Italian and Slavic (Croatian)."

Slavic interchangeable with Croatian? This is perverting the facts.

The unbiased solution would be to call the language: "the (South) Slavic language of Dubrovnik", or "the Slavic dialect of Dubrovnik", or "Shtokavian dialect"

I agree with you, but Croatian users do not agree, and somebody think that these claims are offensive. BTW Shotkavian, even today, is spoken in Serbia and Bosnia, why do not call it "Serbocratian". Or, if this last is "offensive", "Southslavic" Giovanni Giove 08:42, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

99.229.96.231 08:20, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why don't you read the archive of this talkpage? See the sections "title" [8], "Slavic language" [9], "For those who doubt about Croathood of Dubrovnik" [10], "Illyrian language" [11], "Croathood of Dubrovnik and translations" [12], "Croats' dialects in old Dubrovnik Republic" [13], "The name of the country" [14]. Dear users, you don't have to reply on the message of every troll that appears (or the troll that plays dumb and pulls newcomers by the nose, thinking that when the talkpage is archived, that the unwanted evidence is removed). If somebody messes with this topic, it should read the discussion. We don't have to explain to every passer-by that the fire and the wheel were discovered/invented long long ago. Kubura 15:02, 14 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, take it easy! I hope your not one of those Serbian nationalists...
Re quote 1: There is no "point", its a statement of fact. It should be clarified, though. Serbian does not draw its roots from Dubrovnik, Croatian does (Gundulić, Držić, etc...).
This is a doubtful fact. First modern Serbian dictionary from 1852. included words noted in Dubrovnik. See also: Ivo Vojnović.
Re quote 2: Yes it can, Ivan Gundulić, Džore and Marin Držić, for example, are considered early Croatian writers.
Yes.... by the modern Croats. But they did not regarded them self as "Croats", nor called the dialect "Croat". Last by not least, they were all bilingual (Italian and Slavic), so I wonder why theu should be reagarded just as "Croats. Acctualy they were Ragusans (a mixed city!)
No, by the whole World (i.e. modern-day historiography). The fact that they did not consider themselves Croatian does not mean much to historians. Example: people from the Kingdom of Wessex did not consider themselves English, but they are considered such by scientists.
You must tell me, are you inventing a brand new nationality here or are you just saying Ragusan citizens are really Serbs? DIREKTOR (TALK) 18:30, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There is little or no validity in the claim that Ragusans are Serbs. But, what is validity of claiming they were Croats? The consequential fact that this city ended up in Croatia, or the fact that Ragusians and Croats are catholic, or the fact that Croatian literature embraced the heritage of Ragusian literature? Ragusa was an aristocratic city state which combined italian and slavic influences (apparently, early Dalmatian and Roman influence as well). It is justifiable to say that the heritage of Venice is Italian (no other claimants exist), but this is not the case with Dubrovnik. BTW, what is the nationality of the Swiss? German? French? 99.229.96.231
Ragusa is as Croatian as Venice is Italian, one might say. In any case, we are not discussing what might have happened. A Mongol fleet could have captured the city and turned it into a Mongol town, for all we know. What matters is that modern historiography allocates the Southern Slavs living in Dubrovnik back then as Croats, thats all there is to it. DIREKTOR (TALK) 21:45, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Re quote 3: You need to differentiate between the existance and standardization of a language. Just because Croatian was not standardised until the 19th century by no means is to suggest that it did not exist before the 19th century.


Re quote 4: This quote clearly does not mean that Croatian is "interchangeable" with Slavic, it means Croatian is a Slavic language (as opposed to Italian, Turkish, Albanian, Greek, etc...)
DIREKTOR (TALK) 08:37, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Some people here are trying to discuss and make general conclusions from half facts and their total ignorance concerning agenda.
Re quote 1: Chakavian, Kaikavian, Ikavian, Stokavian are generalized dialects Of South Slavic languages. However there are differencies inside each of it, so there's situation that Stokavian is found in three modern standardized languages: Croatian, Serbian, Macedonian. For better understanding it's not easy for a Croat to understand all said by a Macedonian, while Croatian and Serbian are much closer but still there are differencies in grammatics and a lot of words. Kaikavian, Chakavian and Ikavian are older dialects in the Western Balkans and historical Croatian dialects, at present still in massive regional use in Croatia (Kaikavian in Zagreb and northern Croatia; Chakavian and Ikavian in Dalmatia, Istria; Ikavian in Herzegovina, Slavonia). Also there are slight differencies among Stokavian speakers from the different regions in Croatia, Dubrovnik dialect, Herzegovinian, Slavonian, Lika... It's impossible to connect some of these dialects to specific ethnic group since ethnic differentiation was made by languages. Dialects are crossing. Croatian and Serbian standardized languages share the same "dialect" - Stokavian, in the same time Stokavian, Chakavian, Ikavian, Kaikavian Croatian use the same "word pool" different from Serbian and Macedonian Stokavian word pool. Different dictionaries make different languages like everywhere else: Italian, French, German, English...
Macedonian is a language from a similar, but different language group (And you criticized using half-facts and ignorance!?). Word pool is one of the least important factors in language differentiation (it is the most unstable language component). Most of the explanation is still OK.
Re quote 2: Can that language at that time be called Croatian ? Can Italian from 15th, 16th can be called Italian? What was called French language spoken in France in 15th century? Maybe people didn't speak 500 years ago!
Croato-serbian/Serbo-croatian, if you wish.
C-S/S-C was "discovered" during communistic pan-Slavistic Yugoslav years and actually it made Croatian and Serbian languages somewhat closer than before. In Bosnia it was admixture of Croats, Serbs and Muslims and question what is spoken there. C-S/S-C was the answer and the easiest resolution. Zenanarh 17:20, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Re quote 3: The most of European languages were standardized in 18th and 19th century.
Re quote 4: "Slavic", "Croatian" and "Illyrian" were Medieval synonims of the same language spoken by Croats, after 19th century it's officialy Croatian language. Zenanarh 16:20, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


First, all those terms were not medieval. "Slavic" was first, and it is the only term used by the people of Dubrovnik in its Golden Age. "Slavic language" has 3+ very similar children. 99.229.96.231
Medieval Croatian authors were using all 3 names, Illyrian was used by some authors in 15th, 16th, 17th century, don't misinterpret it with Illyrian national movement in 19th century Croatia. Zenanarh 17:28, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


It doesn't matter. I personally believe we all pretty much speak the same language but use different dialects. The fact of the matter is that, for whatever reason, the South Slavs from Dubrovnik are considered Croatian. Are you inventing a new nationality here? DIREKTOR (TALK) 21:45, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"modern historiography" - I pretty much know what history books in Croatia say, but I doubt books in Italy and Serbia say the same. And I can strongly argue on behalf of all three of them!

Example 1: Ragusians were Italians by personal choice, if not by ethnicity.

Example 2: Ragusa is very distant (in most senses) from historic Croatia. Their later association is a product of common religion and similar language.

Example 3: Current citizens of Dubrovnik consider themselves Croats.

99.229.96.231 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.201.5.100 (talk) 22:12, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Re ex.1: Not correct! Ragusans didn't recognized themselves as Italians at all! Or nothing similar.
Re ex.2: depending what is historic Croatia for you... Zenanarh 17:35, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the thing - Croatia was a specific country with specific boundaries at the time the Republic of Ragusa existed. Those boundaries did not include any of Dalmatia, and certainly not Dubrovnik. It seems highly problematic to refer to its inhabitants as "Croatian" before the 19th century. john k (talk) 06:10, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Croatia as a country originated in Dalmatia, also during existance of Dubrovnik Republic, Croatia was changing its territory several times and did include Dalmatia or almost the best part of it. Zenanarh (talk) 07:51, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dubrovnik and "distant" historic Croatia

Here's the reference [15] and [16] Pavao Krmpotić: Kazneni postupak prema srednjovjekovnom statutarnom pravu Dubrovačke Republike, Pravnik, 40, 2 (83), 2006, p. 89. (Criminal procedure according to the statutary Law of Republic of Dubrovnik):
Venice has concquered Dubrovnik in 1205. With the Peace Treaty from Zadar from 1358, the rule of Venice over Dubrovnik ended. Until 1526, Dubrovnik recognised the King of Croatia and Hungary as the sovereign (dinasties: Angevins, Luxemburg, Habsburg, Hunyadi, Jagiellon).
There you have "far away" country of Croatia. However, if you look those sections (archived) I suggest you to read, you'll see the texts in which the Dubrovnikan authors from that very century explicitly speak about Croatian language in Croatian language in their works (e.g., Dominko Zlatarić, 1597). Kubura (talk) 13:56, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by anonymous

One just needs to go into the Sponza Palace, the Ragusian state archive in Dubrovnik and see any of the official documents. The laws regarding inner policy are clearly stated in Croatian: Those regarding foreign policy are written both in Croatian and Italian. All of the ruling families of Ragusa from Sorkocevic to Gucetic to Restic etc were Croatian. The greatest Ragusian poet and writer Ivan Gundulic, an aristocrat and one of the rulers, famous for his book "Suze sina razmetnoga", was one of the greatest Croatian nationalists. Source: "Dubrovnik, a history", written by Robin Harris 2006.

Just because the official name of the republic was Ragusa it doesn't mean that it was Italian. Ragusan despised and hated all Italian republics. Ragusa with it's fleet capacity of 700.000 tons surpassed Venice in 1660 and was the main rival of Venice in the Adriatic. The last Venitian rector was sent home packing in 1358. According to the Harris book he packed in a hurry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.243.74.11 (talk) 21:31, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just because the Ragusian aristocrats spoke both Croatian and Italian, it doesn't make them Italian. Until 1918 the German houses of Baden and Würtemberg only spoke French BUT that doesn 't make the German state Baden Würtemberg a French state. And that's why Ragusa was not an italian state. Italians should therefore stop leering at Ragusa trying to regard it as Italian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.243.74.11 (talk) 21:40, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What are you talking about? Whoever said that Ragusa was Italian? Maarten (talk) 21:52, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Deal

Deal between Dubrovnik and Dušan of Serbia has been finished only after Stjepan II (in dokument master of Hum land) of Bosnia has confirmed agreement. Serbia (Dušan) has recieved 8000 perpera for Rat Stonski, Posrećnicu in Neretva (?) and Prevlaka + every year gifts of 500 perpera. Rjecina (talk) 02:47, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

On other side for confirmation of deal Bosnia (Stjepan II) will recieve every year gifts of 500 perpera until end of time (words from document). --Rjecina (talk) 02:52, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Doge/Knez

"Duke of Ragusa" is a good translation of course, though Doge is used in English sources, maybe to make a difference with the new title of "Duke of Ragusa" created by Napoleon for Auguste de Marmont --DaQuirin (talk) 14:08, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, though some may argue that Knez is the proper term, I think Duke (or Prince, maybe?) is a good compromise. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 19:35, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Knez is not known in English, whereas Doge is properly used in historical sources, be it Italian or not. You were really improving the article, but then ... again this nationalistic Balkan crap (sorry, it's not personal, but this is what it looks like to Non-Croatians and Non-Italians). --DaQuirin (talk) 19:53, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If Doge hurts the Croatian soul, "Rector of Ragusa" seems o.k. "Duke of Ragusa" is misleading, as I said, because it was used later with a different meaning. --DaQuirin (talk) 19:59, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Hurts the Croatian sole",?!! I resent the implication that I'm another irrational nationalist (I don't even believe in "souls" ;). I was merely acting logically. "Doge" is an Italian term, whereas it would be more appropriate to equate it with an English title (since we are not dealing with Venice). I agree that "Duke" may be misleading, however, so I'd like to propose we use the term "Prince". After all, the ruler of Ragusa did not consider himself a "Duke", no matter what language we translate the title to ("Knez" translates to "Prince"). --DIREKTOR (TALK) 20:44, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why not Doga? :) Duke, doge and knez were the same titles in Marmont's age, in different languages. Zenanarh (talk) 22:18, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Marmont was Duc de Raguse, the only one ever probably, now look at this odd category: Category:Dukes of Raguse --DaQuirin (talk) 02:10, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Not precisely. We are dealing with two different titles in three languages here:
English: Duke, Prince
Italian (Venetian): Doge, Principe
Croatian: Vojvoda, Knez
In Venice, the title of Duke was the ruling title, and we can therefore safely translate the title of the Venetian Doge to "Duke". In Dubrovnik, however, the title "Duke" is incorrect and misleading (as DaQuirin pointed out) and we cannot use it in any language whatsoever (no matter how frequently "Doge" is used). The correct title in English would therefore be "Prince" (a ruler in general), with the added benefit of the middle-ground between the two points of view (Knez and Doge). (In Croatian the word "Princ" is used for a royal heir, but not in the context of a ruler in general.) --DIREKTOR (TALK) 22:45, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In the end, it's not up to us to find the proper translation. Maybe someone can check the Harris book. Is "Rector" not fitting? I don't think "prince" is appropriate for a republic. --DaQuirin (talk) 14:10, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No I don't think Rector can be used here, "Rector" was a different function. Wasn't the Venetian overseer known as a Rector? (When I say "we", I mean people in general.) --DIREKTOR (TALK) 14:16, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
O.K. It is not an urgent problem. If someone can check the English-speaking history books, we will then find the proper term. --DaQuirin (talk) 14:24, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Prince can be used for medieval merchant republics, the Medicis for example were Princes of Florence, weren't they? --DIREKTOR (TALK) 15:17, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure. "Prince" was only used when the Republican institutions were not working normally. Again, let us wait until we can check some translated sources. In the Doge article it is stated: "The title of Doge was used for the elected chief of state in a number of Italian 'crowned republics'. The two best known such republics were Venice and Genoa..." What would be interesting to know: Didn't the Ragusans create their constitution and the Latin names of the institutions under the influence of the model maritime republic (and their arch enemy of course) Venice? So finally, under the impact of our interesting discussion here, later this year, I will do some book research myself, starting with Harris maybe. Greetings to all of you, interested in the history of the splendid city of Dubrovnik! --02:26, 18 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by DaQuirin (talk • contribs)
The historical title used in Ragusa was 'Doge', and if don't like there is nothing we can do. The title of Duke was different and unelected. Don't change history with nationalism ;)


The head of the Ragusan Republic was always called RECTOR (While it existed, i.e. 1358-1808). During the time the Venetians ruled Dubrovnik (1205-1358) it was count(lat. comes), and before that it was also rector. I don't know how you came up with duke, but that title didn't even exist in the Ragusan Republic. It was only after the Republic was abolished that the title duc de Raguse was created. The rector was a position, not a title. He was an administrator (lat. rector, from regere – to govern), he was elected, his station wasn't hereditary and after his term expired he wasn't the rector anymore (so he can't be called a duke, a prince, or a doge).

Rag. Historian (talk) 10:40, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dobrons, Dubrons...

In the article "Dubrovnik" I found the under the subtitle "Name" the mention of a Slavic tribe Dubroni or Dobroni. I've been searching for any information related to that tribe, a book or sth. I've found a form of their name in about 50 (!) settlements scattered throughout the Slavic lands but I can't find anything written by an expert. Can anyone help me? (maybe the person who wrote about them in the article) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ragusinus (talk • contribs) 23:17, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Serbs of Dubrovnik

In the later 19th century 15 of 36 Dubrovnik deputies were of the Serb Party.

The 1953 Yugoslavian population census showed 8,813 Serbs and 4,709 Montenegrins in Dubrovnik's municipality. These together formed a huge part of Dubrovnik's population and most were Roman Catholic Christians. Anti-Note (talk) 18:45, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Anti-Note, we're talking about the times of Republic of Dubrovnik, not the times after. Stick to the topic.
Now, to deputies.
These elections in Dubrovnik were boycotted by Croat parties, and then Serb party got that unreal share of deputies.
Seeing the consequences of their internal fight, Croat parties in Dubrovnik had settled things amoung themselves, and on the very next elections, that very big success of Serb party faded.
YU census from 1953 showed... blah, blah, and they were Christians. You say that just like that.
Also, that political movement of "Serb Catholics" was financed from Serbia. Interesting, when Yugoslavia came to life in 1918 (under name Kingdom of SHS), that "enthusiasm for Serbhood in Dubrovnik" has vanished.
Now, to census.
I can also say that YU census from 1953 showed that there were 10,000 Clingons living in Dubrovnik, and they were of Bayoran religion.
Now, the warning again. Stick to the topic, don't go off-topic. You came here with other intentions. The topic is the Republic of Dubrovnik. Kubura (talk) 06:18, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The political movement of Dalmatian Croats was financed from Croatia. Both sides tried to get as much as they can, just like Serbia and Bulgaria strugled on the other side. Akinful cultures are destined for those places of intercultures [all one people in truth].
No it didn't vanish. As we see, it went on and on and on. At first you made me think it disapeared in 1929 when it became Catholic=Croat and Orthodox=Serb, but that is obviously not the case, as it maintained even through the Ustashas and into Communists. The Ustashis rein is actualy the best pruf of their streangth. Thrugh Communism they very slowly died out and were asimilated into Croats. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anti-Note (talk • contribs) 23:43, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the Klingons were of Ferengi origin, Kubura. Do not discuss matters you don't know anything about ;) --DIREKTOR (TALK) 07:27, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wait, wait... Klingons or Clingons? Zenanarh (talk) 08:54, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Clearly Kubura is not knowledgeable in this line of conversation, the proper term is obviously Klingons. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 09:29, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply] 

Note:User:Anti-Note is the sockpuppet of the banned user:PaxEquilibrium. Kubura (talk) 07:20, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Historical name

the historical name of the ancient Republic of Ragusa was 'Respublica Ragusina' and not Republic of Dubrovnik, that name was not used in the middle ages, even by the Ragusan people.

I'm sure you know The Truth, but the fact remains that as the city was known by its majority Slavic noblemen and commoners as "Dubrovnik". --DIREKTOR (TALK) 08:09, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't matter how it was called in the medieval age (or later) by its inhabitants. Here it's about the general use in English-speaking history books. The name "Republic of Ragusa" is still the widely used name for all the known reasons. In touristical guides and some modern books you will also find "Republic of Dubrovnik" (mostly by Croatian authors, but not only). --DaQuirin (talk) 13:33, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, if you recall I voted against the move to "Republic of Dubrovnik". But the Republic of Dubrovnik should stay at least in brackets as the second name. We should not be completely inflexible. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 05:16, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, of course. --DaQuirin (talk) 22:59, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List

There are two issues with the list, 1) its way too big and needs a separate article (don't create it yet), 2) the use of Italian names and titles is debatable. Any hypothetical article for this list needs to have a title agreed upon by consensus, and needs to use a Croatian/Italian name format. "Rettore"? how about "Rector"? --DIREKTOR (TALK) 21:19, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with DIRECTOR. Maybe the ethnicity issues can be evaded by just giving two names where they exist in the history books. --DaQuirin (talk) 22:32, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That would appear to be the only way. I remind everyone that they are not Italian nobility, but that they are (most of them) historic Croatian nobility, despite the dual use of their names. We should try to avoid this complex issue. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 12:29, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1) The Ragusan nobility were not an historical croatian nobility, the ragusan nobility were a DALMATIAN NOBILITY, the union of Croatia and Dalmatia is a modern concept of the XIX century, tha Republic of Ragusa and the aristocracy were bilingual, but the official names were in latin and italian, if you see the old records in Ragusa, are all in italian language. Ragusino —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.74.186.242 (talk) 18:49, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All Croatian names in Medieval Dalmatian cities were written in Dalmatian or Latin language format. It was because of the Latin script and alphabet. Original scripts for Croatian language were Glagolithic and western Cyrillic. Since these cities (especially those largest ones) were cosmopolitan in high degree in cultural sense (connected by the sea to the rest of Mediterranean), the documents were written in Latin, Greek, Hebrew, Venetian, French, etc as well as Dalmatian and Croatian language, by using several different scripts: Greek, Latin, Glagolithic, western Cyrillic,... Even the most part of the documents written by the Croatian courts and in the Croatian royal cities in the northern Dalmatia were written in Latin language and Latin script.
Ethnicity of the citizens was something completely different. Dalmatian cities were constantly populated and repopulated by the settlers of the same sea coast - Croats, Slavs. It was enough to move from a village (islands, inland) to a city and here there to become its citizen. That's how a huge majority of the population was ethnically Croatian: the most part of the noblemen and citizens, all agrar surrounding. Because of its cultural accessibility, there were also foreigners in these cities, mostly those who had "money" or "job": some noblemen, scholars, artists, merchants, traders, politicians,... most of them in transition, but not really the city masses, paisants, fishermen...
Names were simply translated to Latin (or Dalmatian but in Latin script) because of tradition. In the early Medieval it was thought that only Latin and Hebrew languages were sacred ones and suitable for liturgy which influenced public usage too in the documents (Medieval church had a lot of influence on public life and culture). Strenghtening of the strategic postion of Venice in the Adriatic sea as a leading trade force, by the time, meant more documents in Venetian language with Dalmatian formed names and less Latin. Glagolithic script disappeared until 18th century.
Chakavian Croatian spoken in the most part of Dalmatia and Istria was/is direct result of this assimilation both in the cities and countryside. Modern Croatian language is standardized Dubrovnik Stokavian dialect. Too many people who are writing here don't know it. Zenanarh (talk) 22:04, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But, The Republic of Ragusa was an Aristocratic Republic, the masses, paisants, fishermen... don`t take part of the goverment, the aristocracy comes for different cities of old Italy, Taranto, Lucca, etc. The only one slavs was Zlataric family. In this fact in the XIX century the most powerfull politic party was the Autonomist (italian) in Dalmatia, they said :Conte Francesco Borelli (*1810 +1884) said: we are slavs for nationality but italian for culture (the dalmatian were born to the sea (adriatic sea).... the autonomist want a multicultural region, with respect for the ancient italian roots and the slavs tradition, about the Dalmatia destiny, they deny the unification with Croatia, because Dalmatia had different roots and multicultural traditions: croatian catholics, serbian orthodox, serbian-croat muslims, italian dalmatian, the people were bilingual, spoken slavonian (dialect modern serbo-croat) and Italian (istrian, dalmatian-veneto dialect), etc.). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.74.187.228 (talk) 22:26, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dalmatian language was not Italian, neither dialect of it. It was original Romance idiom developed in the early Medieval from Vulgar Latin after 500, 600 years of Latinization of the locals - Ilyrians, a link on a chain between Romanian and Italian. Was Medieval Romanian Italian too? Venetian came much later, mostly after 15th century. Dalmatian language vanished in the largest part because of Chakavian Croatian which preserved a lot of Dalmatian words and toponims. Venetian finished it. 12th - 18th century Glagolithic inscriptions in central and northern Dalmatia were all Chakavian. In 14th century Dubrovnik it was Stokavian in western Cyrillic script (in general Stokavian dialect was/is shared by Croatian and Serbian languages). In Dalmatia both dialects were called by the same name during Medieval. It was slavinski, harvatski or ilirski language, which was by the authors in 16th century defined as the same. And yes, the people were bilingual, some even multilingual. Zenanarh (talk) 00:10, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was to talk with Saraca, Caboga, Ghetaldi families member today, for example Andreas Saraca tell me than the Austrian-Hungary Empire try to erase amd forget all the venetian(italian) heredity of the Ragusa city in the XIX century with your policy, the cause was the war independence againts Italy between others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.74.186.254 (talk) 21:27, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your English is very bad. I'm not sure that I understand what you want to say. Noble families were often moving during Medieval between 2 Adriatic coasts in both directions. They had titles, money and properties. The most of the foreigners in Dubrovnik and other Dalmatian cities were the noblemen-merchants. Venice as well as Dalmatian cities were developing the mostly because of trade. However the noblemen made just really small number of the citizens. They were just nobiles - the members of the highest class. Other classes in the Medieval cities were cives and habitatores. In every such Medieval city-commune there were 10-20 such families (in some moment) wich means maybe max. 100 family members. Zadar and Dubrovnik had 5.000 - 6.000 citizens during Medieval. The real carriers of the social and cultural life in these cities were actually cives - the citizens in the full sense of meaning. The nobiles were there because of the cives and habitatores, not contrary. Republic of Ragusa was not what it was because of the few noblemen, it was because of its citizens. USA is not Africa because of Obama and C. Rise. Zenanarh (talk) 22:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Siebmacher; The Kingdom of Dalmatia

Schon seit Beginn der neuen Ausgabe des grossen Siebmacher'schen Wappenbuches stand ich dem Herausgeber, dem nun verstorbenen Herrn Otto Titan von Hefner in München mit meiner heraldischen Sammlung unausgesetzt helfend zur Seite, wesshalb mich der damalige Verleger, später bei Gelegenheit einer XJrlaubsreise, welche mich durch Nürnberg führte, anging das inzwischen durch Zwistigkeiten mit dem Herausgeber in's Stocken gerathene Unternehmen fortzusetzen. Durch meine dienstlichen Verhältnisse beim kk. Ingenieur-Corps in Italien jedoch zu sehr in Anspruch genommen musste ich den damaligen Antrag des Verlegers ausschlagen, empfahl demselben aber den mir als fleissigen und tüchtigen Heraldiker persönlich bekannten Herrn Alfred Grenser in Leipzig, welcher auch die Herausgabe übernahm und dann die Lieferungen N2. 67 und N2. 68 wirklich bearbeitet hat. Nach dem Kriege des Jahres 1866 aus Italien nach Wien versetzt, betheiligte ich mich endlich selbst direct an der Fortsetzung des Werkes, von welcher Herr Grenser in Folge anderweit übernommener Verpflichtungen wieder zurückgetreten war. Da ich jedoch kein ausgearbeitetes Manuscript bei dem Verleger vorfand, so war ich genöthiget, die Fortsetzung der Wappen des deutschen Adels im Allgemeinen einstweilen liegen zu lassen, und mich zunächst der Herausgabe der dalmatinischen und überhaupt aller mit denselben in irgend einer Verbindung gestandener Adels-Geschlechter ^zuzuwenden, für welche ich schon vorher nach Kräften das Material gesammelt hatte, und zu dem ich noch während des Druckes, durch die reichhaltigen Archive in Wien unterstützt, viele Nachträge geben konnte. Für die fernere Bearbeitung der Wappen des deutschen Adels empfahl ich dann den Herrn Maximilan Gritzner, königlich preüssischen Lieutenant in Berlin welcher nebst noch andern mittlerweile vom Verleger gewonnenen Herren das Wappenbuch bis jetzt glücklich gefördert haben. — Die Eintheilung meiner Arbeit über den dalmatinischen Adel hängt theils mit der Combination meiner Quellen, theils mit dem Umstände zusammen, dass dieser Adel ein Gemisch der verschiedensten Nationalitäten ist und sieb, je nach dem Wechsel der Herrschaft, gleichsam schichtenartig neben und übereinander gelagert hat. Der Adel Dalmatiens besteht nämlich zunächst aus dem' Uradel des Landes, welcher meistens s l a v i s c h e n Stammes ist, dann aber auch aus eingewanderten a l t r ö m i s c h e n , byzantinischen, g r i e c h i s c h e n , a l b a n e s i s c h e n , u n g a r i s c h e n , i l l y r i s c h e n , venezianischen und sonstigen i t a l i e n i s c h e n , endlich aus d e u t s c h e n , insbesondere ö s t e r r e i c h i s c h e n und einigen f r a n z ö s i s c h e n Familien. — Nur der Adel R a g u s a s war stets selbstständig und durchgehends slavischen Ursprunges („siehe bei Ragusa das Nähere)." — Ueber den Ursprung einer Familie kann übrigens leicht der Umstand irre leiten, dass manche der slavischen Familien ihre Namen in's Italienische oder Lateinischo übersetzt haben j so nannten sich z.B. die Damianich später „Damiani" und die slavische G o s p o d n e t i c h, auf lateinisch de Dominis u. s. w. Schliesslich erlaube ich mir noch diejenigen geehrten Herren, welche mich bei meiner Arbeit erfolgreich unterstützt haben, meinen verbindlichsten Dank auszudrücken und zwar den A II VORBERICHT. Herren: Conte Borelli, Johann Danilo "Weltpriester und Reichstags-Abgeordneten für Dalmatien, in Zara, Conte Fanfogna-Graragnin, Kasnacie, Machiedo, sowie Alois Mery Doctor der Rechte und kk. Statthaltereirath in Zara, welche ich auch theilweise bereits betreifenden Ortes besonders hervorgehoben habe. D a r m s t a d t am 1. Juli 1872. Friedrich Heyer von Roseni'eld, k. TJ. k. Hauptmann. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.74.187.228 (talk) 22:34, 25 June 2008 (UTC) [reply]

If I may comment, it is I think the case that what we see now as the modern 'Croatian identity' or the 'Italian identity' (spiritual, cultural, political) is a relatively recent construct, maybe 150 or more years old, while being something that has almost universal approval among the people these days. Historically, it was the case that people saw themselves as being patriotic to a more local identity (in this case Dalmatia). So if we are talking about the 'Ragusans', nobility or otherwise, they would not in any sense have identified with what we see as Croatia, or Italy, so it's a silly argument. While Dalmatians and Slavonians now would see each other (in certain senses, but not others, football being the obvious example) as brothers and sisters, I don't think this would have been the case 400 years ago. So we can see their political and diplomatic identity as an entity and a thing that is part of Croatian history but not necessarily 'Croatian' - I hope the difference is clear, what I mean is that our term would be hard for them to understand - but it's definitely true that linguistically and culturally they were/are each one of the main strands of the plait that is now the nation state. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 22:47, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The concepts of nationalism cannot be translated to the middle ages. However, since Dubrovnik is in Croatia (and has never during the course of its entire history been a part of Italy), and since the Republic itself possessed a Slavic culture, Croatian names cannot be simply ignored. That being said, I don't think this whole discussion is necessary, we can simply use both names. The noble title should be "Rector", not "Rettore", though. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 23:02, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You make a good point. As usual :-) What I was trying to do was say that the terms "Croatian" and "Italian" are irrelevant here. As usual though, Dalmatia articles cannot get on with being just articles as they are always hijacked by nationalist nonsense. My extremely helpful and enlightening intervention - Hell, all my interventions are helpful to both the tone and outcome of the discussion, I think that can be agreed - followed a lengthy copy-paste interjection in German. German??? How helpful is that?AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 23:17, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It would probably take me more than an hour just to read all this :) --DIREKTOR (TALK) 23:53, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yaa sucker, that's because I am vóden, and you are merely vôden. Ha!!! And the first to spot the next reincarnation of PIO wins a whole evening with Blanka Vlašić --AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 00:15, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You know I saw her a while back, we prefer the same pub, apparently (the O'Hara) Now all I've got to do is find that freak 8) .... --DIREKTOR (TALK) 00:23, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So I'll need to rely on you for a little local knowledge, DIREKTOR, good friend, great guy, Wikiassociate, bla bla... AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 00:26, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In this article, is about the former Republic of Ragusa, not the modern Croatia, the modern nationalism cannot be translated to the Republic, in that sense DIREKTOR, if you want write about Croatia and Dubrovnik, make in the Dubrovnik wikipedia article.

Yes I know what the article is about. It is about the Republic of Ragusa, a bilingual Dalmatian merchant republic. It is not about an Italian city state, and when I say "bilingual", I mean Dalmatian language/Croatian language bilingual. The citizens of this same state, though bilingual, were mostly Slavs, and thus mostly used Croatian (or "Slavic", if you prefer). The state also had a developed Slavic culture, which was also, logically, more present among the people than Romance culture.
All this cannot simply be ignored, as it leads to a biased POV article. Please try to keep an open mind, once again, this is not an Italian city-state. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 12:14, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you have open mind, put all the names of the cities, in italian and croatian, Sipan also Sipano, Gruz also Gravosa, etc. The ragusan were open minds people, when they changes this political views, the Republic was death! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.215.29.166 (talk) 16:09, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here's an idea: lets create an article called "Notable Ragusans" where we can place both the long list of notable Ragusans and the rulers? --DIREKTOR (TALK) 14:57, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Flag

No comments about the flag? It's not really good quality, DIRECTOR :) --DaQuirin (talk) 12:01, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Heh, I know, feel free to remove it. Though, since it is historically correct (sort of), I recommend we leave it until we can find something better? --DIREKTOR (TALK) 12:06, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I remember we had a flag, but it was removed (why) ? You write that "it is historically correct (sort of)" and that's why we should better remove it, I think. But you are completely right - we need a flag to be included. --DaQuirin (talk) 12:12, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What about this one, or is it only a modern flag of Dubrovnik?

Libertas flag of Dubrovnik

--DaQuirin (talk) 12:15, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See [17] and [18], the Republic had a flag with S. B. (Sanctus Blasius) and Saint Blasius/Vlaho. This is also similar to the modern flag of Dubrovnik. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 12:19, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV tag

The article has been tagged since last August [19] as having disputed neutrality. This was done by the legendary GG, who is sadly no longer with us. I'd like to ask what his problem with the article was, and what if anything the resolution was. Can somebody point out what is disputed? If nobody does so in a few days, I'd suggest removing the tag. Articles should not be tagged indefinitely, and it seems to me that this is another case of an article being tagged just because "I don't like it, it doesn't say what I want it to", rather than any real problem existing. Comments? AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 12:18, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sadly, I think there will always be some kind of dispute here, if only one person's name... Though since it's not really a battleground anymore, I think old GG's tag should definitely go (MAN am I glad to be rid of that freak! We should hold a No More Giove commemoration holiday every six months :) --DIREKTOR (TALK) 12:23, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don` know who this GG guy is,but curent article is not neutral definitely,`cos it has a croatian POV.

Using only terms like croatian language and croatian literature is a very big POV,`cause Slav citizens of Dubrovnik called their own native language also serbian(i.e.lingua serviana),also used some other names(dubrovacki/ragusian,naski/ours,slovinski/slovene/slav language,ilirski/iliryan) and only few times croatian(according to Aleksandar Milanovic from Philology Faculty in Belgrade).Also,there are scientist(Milan Rešetar,Pavle Ivić this is oficial view in Serbia) who consider ragusian literature part of serbian literature or serbocroatian(but closer to serbian),since it has some characteristics of both.

There is no mentoning of use of cyrilic in Dubrovnik by it`s people and also by catholic priest(i.e. Libro od mnozijeh razloga written in 1520).In one of the molitveniks(from word molitva which means prayer) written in 1512 in cyrilic inscription is mentioned that it is written "in serbian letters and language".

I will not return POV sign,but this matter shuold be dealt with.Best way is to replace(or remove) croatian language and literature with ragusian language or add /serbian on every place(i.e. croatian/serbian language) and all of this I can backup with references. CrniBombarder!!! Шумски Крст (†) 17:29, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wishie-wish, Crni. Da ti je dočepat se Dubrovnika, a? Don't misrepresent.
Milan Rešetar's political attitudes significantly influenced his works: he was the member freshly organized political movement in Dubrovnik, financed from Serbia, called "Serb Catholics".[20] Later he changed his declaring by nationality into "Yugoslav".
Pavle Ivić, AFAIK, politically compromised himself in linguistics, especially in late '80's Sumrak srpske lingvistike (a response to interview Pavle Ivić gave to Serbian magazine "Intervju" on Aug 3, 1991.: "Hrvatska će izgubiti rat" (Croatia'll lose the war). Very academical title. What can you expect from such person?
. About Illyric language, please, read archives (also , we don't have to copy the same message ten times. Here's the link from archives Talk:Republic_of_Ragusa/Archive_1#Illyrian_language. See also [21]. Kubura (talk) 08:43, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okey,I`ll try to stick to the topic and avoid using argumentum ad hominem.

I said what they claim,if you wish to discredit their linguistic work by some aspects of their lives,it`s your choice.

Now,back to the topic,in Serbia (oficial view of modern serbian scientists who are teaching on Philology Faculty in Belgrade) it is considered that Ragusian literature and native language of his Slavonic population should be considered either as serbian or as serbocroatian.Ragusian literature is learned as separate course inside serbian literature and language educational profile, while croatian literature is learned as part of southslavonic literatures course on same profile.I can back this up with references of course,signed by leading scolars of Philology Faculty in Belgrade.I have already quoted Aleksandar Milovanovic and his book “Short history of serbian literal language”(“Кратка историја српског књижевног језика”, Belgrade 2004).

So,we have croatian scientist and their view against serbian scientist and their view of the problem.Curently,only croatian side has been shown in article.

I only mentioned illyrian language as a part of a quote and that`s not part of my interest in this POV article.

(Just to notice,in link regarding Rešetar there is no mentioing of Serbia or her financing that movement,it is just said that Rešetar himself belonged to this highly organized movement in second half of XIX century.

Also,I haven`t understood how an interview which he gave on Aug 3, 1991 on the begining of the war can be put in the late `80,but okey.) CrniBombarder!!! Шумски Крст (†) 17:51, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1) Financing from Serbia? OK, I owe you this reference.
2) Of course, 1991 is not late '80's. As I've read various works, and as far as I've comprehended the texts (maybe I got it wrong, , it seems that he compromised himself earlier (in '80's). I'll search for that. As first, here's the article Jezik i rat of Croatian linguist Ivo Pranjković (and Croatians find him as Croatian linguistic weakliner) in the magazine Vijenac, where he explicitly says "Autor joj je beogradski anglist i profesor opće lingvistike Ranko Bugarski, jedan od rijetkih srpskih jezikoslovaca koji su aktivno sudjelovali u antiratnim manifestacijama (znatno su nažalost bili brojniji oni koji su, kao npr. Pavle Ivić ili Radmilo Marojević, bili pokretači i glasnogovornici ratnohuškačke propagande" Translation and summary: "Very few Serbian linguists participated in anti-war manifestations (unfortunately, more numerous were ones, that were the starters and spokesmen of warmongering propaganda, like Pavle Ivić and Radmilo Marojević". Also, Pavle Ivić was the member of the workgroup on the Memorandum of the SANU. See also Sumrak srpske lingvistike, first two paragraphs.
3) Interesting message on a forum, I don't need to copy it here (Veliko)Srpska opsesija Dubrovnikom. You can read whole 7-pages topic. Kubura (talk) 08:40, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Can someone explain why 1032(year of the battle on byzantine side) is shown as year of the begining of the Republic? CrniBombarder!!! Шумски Крст (†) 18:04, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It seems that croatian side (croatian scientist and their view) including the people of Dubrovnik have the same view as Ragusan writers for centuries (did you read Kubura's comment? Mentioned archives?) and is based on the same tradition (BTW modern standard Croatian is Stokavian Ijekavian Croatian that was earlier spoken in Dubrovnik, Serbian language is out of this story), while serbian scientist and their view is based on pan-Serbism (maybe some other phrases like revisionism, expansionism or something worse are more suitable) from last 100 years. It's very sad if Serbian scientists, due to a lack of Serbian literacy from Medieval or Reinessance, search it in their neighbours traditions. Very pathetic. Serbian identity chrisis is not a problem of Croatia, nor English Wikipedia. Zenanarh (talk) 10:20, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No,it seems that someone here is lying,either it is croatian scolars who are claiming that Ragusians never considered their language to be serbian or serbian scolars who are claiming that they called it with many names,including serbian and only few times croatian.(Did you read my quotes?)

I`m missing your point regarding standardisation of croatian language,`cause it`s based on same dialect of shtokavian speak (east-herzegovian) as serbian,and some uniqe parts of Ragusian speak are integrated in modern serbian language. CrniBombarder!!! Шумски Крст (†) 23:38, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is a rather ridiculous discussion. The differences between Serbian and Croatian are so insignificant that trying to distinguish what was what 700 years ago is comical. It is certain, however, that they were Catholics and used Latin script. This is the reason their language was considered early Croatian in the 19th century, and this is why Croats will feel outraged when anything else is insinuated. What is certain, was that it was an early form of a Serbo-Croatian language and used the Latin alphabet. I don't know if it was "Croatian" or "Serbian" but it certainly isn't closer to Serbian than to Croatian.
Croatian and Serbian are generally impossible to distinguish in the Middle Ages. Scholars usually use local religious affiliation, alphabets, or traditional national territories to support a claim one way or another. In reality, languages like Bosniak, Croatian, Serbian, and Montenegrin are so historically intertwined that very rarely a grammatical point can truly be used as an absolute argument. Of course, nationalist pride usually moves in and we get a political argument... For instance, the difference between Kajkavian and Chakavian, both Croatian, are faaar larger than those between standard Croatian and standard Serbian, however, both those areas are traditionally Catholic so the dialects are considered Croatian (this is just one argument of many). As stupid as it may seem, local religious affiliation is the main argument scholars are forced to use to see what's what in this politically induced and wholly artificial modern separation. This is obviously about the history of a region in question, and not about its language. Like modern linguists, we have no choice but to do as the politics dictate. We can't say the language was "a Serbo-Croatian language" since that does not exist, and would probably cause outrage. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 00:29, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your colleague tried to use standardisation of modern croatian language,as some kind of argument in this discusion,not me.

Whell,they we`re catholic and slavonic populatio use glagolits and cyrilic letter and from XV century started to use latin inscription.Using of latin script to write slavonic language and catholic religion are not unique to Croatians,so it can`t be used to prove anything,especially since standard serbian language uses both cyrilic and latin script equally.We`re not talking here about someones rage,where dealing with things that are represented as facts in Croatia and Serbia.

So what shall we do now?

Ragusian vs croatian/serbian language?

It should be mentioned in the article that Ragusian literature is considered both croatian and serbian by scolars,depending on their mother language/political affections/etc. CrniBombarder!!! Шумски Крст (†) 04:44, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This "Ragusan literature" you speak of is considered a part of Croatian literature by 99% of all relevant sources today. The only ones who insist on some alleged "Serbianism" are politcally motivated Serb scholars, remnants of unsuccessful efforts of Karadžić, Ivić, Rešetar and other Pan-Serb philologists to incorporate Croatian cultural heritage into Serbian (from Srbi svi i svuda up to Slovo o srpskom jeziku - 2 centuries of delicate propaganda and fabricating history). Old Dubrovnik literature and history is part of Croatian cultural heritage by name (prevalent designatation as Croat by themselves and by external sources, but never Serb AFAIK), culture (Roman Catholics, thousands of Chakavisms in written pieces, exchange with Chakavian writers), linguistically (Western Štokavian). Modern-day Dubrovnikans consider themselves, their language and culture as Croatian, and insisting on some alleged Serbdom would be pure POV-pushing. Perhaps Serbian WP tolerates edits like this, but not here, sorry. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 10:36, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Religion is used to distinguish between Serbs, Muslims, and Croats in this specific area (they were certainly not Slovene), so religious afiliation has been used and is still used, and can be used to distinguish between Serbs and Croats in this area. Facts mention by Stambuk merely illustrate this. I myslef am an atheist so I may claim objectivity in this. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 14:49, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ah DIR, do you really think that your atheism has anything to do with ethnography, ethnology and philology? It gives you right to claim objectivity in this? No comment. You wrote in the next section that there are no sources. No, DIR, there are, but not online. There are a plenty of books, many written by native Dubrovcans, you can find there nothing except story of Croatian heritage. It just needs someone to go to library and translate parts of it here. If you have enough time, why don't you simply do it and feed your objectivity with relevant data instead of atheism? Have you ever seen that famous painting "Gundulić's dream" made by Vlaho Bukovac? Do you know why it was named so? Make a little investigation. Do you know that in Dubrovnik historical archives (estimated as 5 km long shelf of original documents, writings,...) there are 16th century records of the letters sent by Dubrovcans to Habsburgians where people of Dubrovnik desperately asked for protection vs Ottomans because they were "Croats too, as well as the rest of Dalmatian and Croatian population who already had got that protection"? Do you know that Dubrovnik writers from 16th to 18th century, described that their language was "Ilirski, Harvatski or Slovinski", defined by 18th century Dubrovnik historian as 3 names of the same language. Do you know that the same definition of these 3 names was recorded by one Zadar writer in 16th century (if I remember well). In 16th century Serbian language was called Serviano by Dubrovcans! Not Illirico!
You can easily see Serbian POV concerning these names in one sentence given by our well known sockpuppeteer and profilic GS pusher Pax in Lika article: The Zadar Archbishopric from 1760 calls them "Illyrian, Wallachian, Slovin or Serbian people", uniting all names given to it in one sentence. - referring to the refugees who escaped before the Turks and came to the northern Dalmatia and Lika. Actually I know about this document, but it said that there were refugees of different etnicities: Illyrian, Wallachian, Slovin and Serbian! Where Illyrians were Chakavians (Croats), Wallachians were Vlachs (darksinned speakers of non-Slavic language, Serbianized later thanks to their Orthodox religion) and Slovins were the other Slavic speakers (non-Chakavian, non-Serbs), like Ikavians (Croats from inland) who massively inhabitted Dalmatian islands (only strenghtening islanders Croathoood - moment after which Venetianization of Chakavians became "mission impossible"). And Serbs were Serbs of course. But not for Serbian quazi-historians, for them they were all Serbs.
An so on and so on...
Well DIR don't be GG (your atheism argument is GG level), you can do better. BTW Štambuk is an academic, languages are his profession, I wouldn't compete with him if I were you. Reading your comment after his one only shows that you have no basic knowledge about South Slavic languages and dialects at all. Sorry but it's a fact. Zenanarh (talk) 17:09, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well Zen, I don't think if you read all the above but I actually supported Štambuk's view ("competeing" with him?!). It is also simply a fact that religious afiiliation and history of the region have been used in the 19th century much more than any grammatical argument to distinguish between Croatian and Serbian in the middle ages. Even today, if a person is orthodox, he is immediately labeled as a Serb by most Croats, and vice versa. All I am saying is that religion plays more of a role than grammar in "fringe areas" between Croatian and Serbian, and that it is hard to distinguish between the two in the middle ages. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 17:37, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

LOL I'm not an academic ^_^. Pax is insane POV partisan, Illyrian never meant Serbian! It's defined as Illyrian=Slavic (slovinski, slavenski etc.)=Croatian in all dictionaries from Kašić to Stulli, and was used to self-designate their mother tongue by Štokavian, Čakavian and Kajkavian writers! How and why ilirski came and continued to be used to designate supra-regional Croatian idiom is a very interesting story, lots of info and citations on it can be found here (PDF, in Croatian) for those interested. After the Illyrian movement, Illyrian became ambigous and obsolete term (today it's revived in some other meaning by some proud Alabanians..).
I wouldn't say that religion is the primary criterion for nationality. It only became so after the 1918 in SHS Kingdom when Bosniaks and Montenegrins where effectively erased from ethnic space. Prior to that lots of Orthodox Slavs (mostly Vlachs) thought themselves as Croats. In middle ages and prior to the advent of extreme nationalism at the beginning of 20th century, vulgus used regional appellatives or just thought of themselves as "Slavs". Try registering freely on ellisisland.org site and entering in the last name search box some nowadays "common Serbian" surnames such as "Tesla" ^_^ and see what folks comming from nowadays-Croatian area with Slavic first names wrote in their "ethnicity" field. You can find lots of Orthodox who have ethnicity Croat, ando also lots of Montenegrins, Dalmatian...lots of Istrians are Slovenes (!) There are 2 "Ivan Stambuk"s with Dalmatian ethnicity ^_^ This being Orthodox=Serb and Catholic=Croat is only of recent origin. Up until recently, "Croathood" was never exclusively associated with some pure ethnical stock or Catholic faith. Lots of influential figures of the Illyrian movement were Slovaks, Greeks, Slovenes..by birth, some of them even Orthodox by descent (Harambašić, Preradović), but that doesn't make them any less "Croatian". --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 10:13, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not an academic? Oops. Nevermind, Academia was just a name of a forest near Athens. Zenanarh (talk) 11:49, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okey,I`ll respond on all posts separately.

  1. Kuburas post
    1. Okey,but it still is argumentum ad hominem.
    2. Mistake,it could happen to anyone.Still it is argumentum ad hominem.(I`ve seen first two paragraphs,links are dead.)
    3. Interesting indeed,one serbian academic in 1967 said that Ragusian literature is croatian with elements of serbian(I assume that was the main point of it).Leading profesors. As I said,todays leading scolars of Philology Faculty in Belgrade have said that it`s both croatian and serbian, but more serbian then croatian. (I was wondering when Mir Harven and his works will come up.)
  2. Ivan Štambuks post
    1. If say 99%,then it must be 99%.
    2. You are accusing Serbs for fabricating history about Ragusa?Nice.
    3. Once again,we`re talking about republic of Ragusa,not modern Dubrovnik,his inhabitants or their problems.
    4. AFAIK,you are wrong,or so I heard (Do you know how is Alexander the Great called in Osman and why?) (regarding name)
    5. Croats are not only Roman Catholics in Balkans,Chakavism has been used in poetry and can`t be found in prose or common talk,they lived by Adriatic sea,had similar language,used latin/italian in their life,hadn`t anything better/close,due to the Otoman rule over the rest of the Balkans(regarding culture)
    6. As I said above,parts of Slavonic ragusian talk have been used in standardatsation of modern Serbian Language (regarding linguistically)
    7. Perhaps Serbian WP tolerates edits like this, but not here, sorry. You deffinetly need to read this article.It`s okey that you are trying to use it,bad thing is that you doing it badly.Your diff shows that I`m not some crazy Srbija do Tokija guy (if I was, I`ll do something like this), but someone who is trying to achieve neutrality,on sr,hr,or here on en.wiki.
  3. DIREKTORs post
    1. Religion is used to distinguish between Serbs, Muslims, and Croats in this specific areaToday we could say yes,in the past,hardly.
    2. You`re atheist?Good for you,you want burn in hell,you`ll be eaten by the worms,From Here, to Eternity.
  4. Zenanarh`s post
    1. Most of the post is adresed towards DIREKTOR or HRE,not about this topic.
    2. Štambuk is an academic?Good for him,but what it has to do with this topic?
    3. Last part is pure argumentum ad hominem (Reading your comment after his one only shows that you have no basic knowledge about South Slavic languages and dialects at all.).
  5. All the rest posts hasn`t ofered nothing new to opose what I`m quoting above,mostly chit-chat.

CrniBombarder!!! Шумски Крст (†) 02:45, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately this edit [22] that introduced the subsection Governing_Doctrine is a copy-paste from here [23] and has to be either deleted, or completely rewritten with that article named as the source, in line with WP:COPYVIO. Pity. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 13:18, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Or it can be edited as citation from that article named as the source. Zenanarh (talk) 14:36, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. As I said, "completely rewritten with that article named as the source". AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 14:55, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yep. Maybe like this:


and reference instead of "by XY" Zenanarh (talk) 15:20, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've taken out the offending section. If anyone fancies (completely) rewriting it, it's available in the history. In fact, that'd be great. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 21:07, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ragusan Italian

Question: What is "Ragusan Italian"? Why does the link lead to "Italian dialects" and what is the significance with the over-all meaning of Italy/Italian and the present-day region of Dubrovnik? Even Venetian, with which the region has its closest post-Latin link (besides Dalmatian), is not scientifically classed as Italian. Can this section be revised? Evlekis (talk) 15:59, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(Oh no, not the language again) You have no idea what can of worms you're opening :P. I'm not sure about Venetian, I believe it is considered "an Italian language", though I personally hold that the term "language" was introduced mainly for political reasons, which is not uncommon with languages and their "independence".
The section definitely needs revising, but the problem is we do not have any real sources on the use of Italian/Venetian/whatever in Dubrovnik. We know that during the middle ages the Ragusan dialect of the romance Dalmatian language was known by a majority of the upper classes, but also that the early Slavic (Croatian)language was the primary language used among the ordinary citizens very early on, and was certainly known by those of the upper classes that didn't use it as a primary language. This Dalmatian dialect was slowly absorbed into an apparent mixture of Tuscan and Venetian dialects, which continued to be used by the portion of the upper classes that used Dalmatian in the past. This is as much as I can tell you about "Ragusan Italian", besides the fact that there certainly is no dialect of Italian (or "Venetian") known as "Ragusan Italian". --DIREKTOR (TALK) 16:50, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I realised it was political from the onset. I know the point you're making about the way historical populations and languages are often revised to conform to modern day conventions. But you made one interesting point which could warrant the use of "Italian", the fact that Tuscan emerged. Venetian is said to be closer to Spanish than Italian, and closer yet to French than Spanish; samples of the language testify to this, but Tuscany is the heart of the modern Italian entity. Its location is somewhat remote from Dubrovnik, are you sure that there was a Tuscan presence in Ragusa? I would be interested to follow these leads myself. Evlekis (talk) 10:10, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Quick note - about something you said 11 months ago. "The people of the Kingdom of Wessex did not consider themselves English": that's an interesting point but I think they did (having lived in England since birth), I believe that England as a Germanic language entity as is best known originates primarily from the various tribes originating from three continental nations, Angles, Jutes and Saxons (rather like Serbs, Croats and Slovenes), but with passing time, their identities rolled into one and it was the "Anglo" demonym which outlived the others (unlike Serb, Croat and Slovene who maintain their identities); the kingdoms of old England were more like todays Arab Emirates, various subregional thrones answering to one superior body. I believe that the name "English" or "Anglo" did exist among the population, and the kingdoms were created so smaller regions could be governed whilst it was difficult to rule over a wide territory, especially with the next bus due to arrive 1,100 years later! This is just a side not, and my basis for this is what I learned in secondary school - nearly 20 years ago. Don't take it as gospel. Evlekis (talk) 10:20, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Trade was the main source of money for Dalmatian cities. It automatically meant a lot of merchants and traders, strangers too. During Medieval a branch of nobility developed in Europe, noble families financed only by trade business, tied to the ships and Mediterranean ports, not to the real estates, so therefore more mobile. Many of them moved and changed their seats. That's why in Dalmatian city-communes there was presence of some foreigners recorded, mainly of cives class (citizens), but also some nobiles (noblemen). Unlike the most of Dalmatian cities, Dubrovnik was much more liberal and accepted some foreign nobility in the city society (Zadar nobility was more conservative, so 1st foreign nobleman listed in the register of domestic nobility was recorded in 16th century). Language spoken in Dubrovnik was predominantly Slavic and Dalmatian, but probably 10 or 20 different languages were heard and spoken in this important Mediterranean port, with a lot of the ships and people in transition. That's why there were some Venetian and Tuscan speakers there, as well as Greek, Turkish, Hebrew,... They were people from Venice, Ravenna, Genoa,... Nothing special.

Some Italian users (mostly IP's) immidiately change any Venetian or Tuscan to Italian, wherever they find it in Wiki. Zenanarh (talk) 11:56, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

When sources are difficult to find, it is a lost cause for all conflicting parties when inserting opposing texts. Tuscan is good enough to be Italian, but Venetian for any non-political reason, isn't. But even with Tuscan, it ultimately depends on the sources (and as I stated, often nobody has them). Italy, as has been known since 1861, and the former Yugoslavia shared a surprising number of freak similarities: you could compile a list as long as your arm, though there were many differences too. Venice (and the Veneto, surrounding region) joined Italy in 1866 (I think) as an alternative to being absorbed into Austria; compare this to Slovenia joining the first Yugoslav kingdom 50 years later, again, as an alternative to Austria. But Venice as a republic with an expansionist history existed for the best part of an entire millennium, it was independent and all its dealings and ventures were down the eastern side of the Adriatic, circling the Balkan peninsula and strecthing to Greek islands, even taking in Cyrpus (1469-1571) - possibly farther eastwards, this is whre my own knowledge runs dry. The actual language is, I believe, documented as Venetian. The term Venetian is often applied to the architecture of Croatia's coastal towns although the ethnic origins of the architects have historically sparked bitter disputes. Many travel books tend to give the architect's name as it is today in both Italian (to represent Venetian, though they are different) and Croatian (to represent the local Slavic of the time, though that too has changed). But going back to the main point: if the presence of Italians in the republic were significant - in that they settled and registered on the census - then it is fine to include Italian, but it would be pure Italian (however it may have been then) rather than Ragusan which suggests that the Tuscan settlers developed a new dialect. Nobody truely wishes to add Hebrew, Greek and Turkish to the language list. Maybe Italian does have a place there, but do you agree to remove the "Ragusan" part of it? Evlekis (talk) 11:46, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, "Ragusan" Italian is somebody's funny invention. Zenanarh (talk) 16:15, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All right. On the basis that Tuscan is today's Italian standard language, and that in turn was spoken by a known portion of the population (though not necesarily a majority), I'll change it to "Italian". If anyone objects and reverts, I'll rest my case and mind my own business in future! :) Evlekis (talk) 15:49, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Now I see you've already done it. Thanks. Evlekis (talk) 15:51, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Year of 1032

Any reason why this year should be placed as founding year?Yes,the battle of Byzantines (with Ragusian help) vs. Arabs occured,but what it has to do with founding of the Republic?

Any toughts on this topic? CrniBombarder!!! Шумски Крст (†) 04:44, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]


I’m new to Wikipedia so please bear with me if I am not following proper etiquette. Concerning the section on the End of the Republic, there are at least three patrician families still living in Dubrovnik today: Bona (2 branches), Gozze (Gučetić) and Sorgo. A search in the Dubrovnik white pages on line gives the following: Bona or de Bona: 7 entries - Bunić: 0 entries Gozze: 2 entries - Gozze-Gučetić: 1 entry (I have noted that this is sometimes incorrectly (?) written as Goze or Gocić in the article on the Republic of Ragusa.) Gučetić:0 Sorgo: 2 entries Sorkočević: 0 entries Giorgi: 0 Đurđević : 9 entries (4 seem to be for the same person. I am not sure they are part of the aristocratic families but I’m going with Robin Harris’ list of Ragusan families (ref. below)). Does anyone have any info? I have made the change and also to Georgi, which should be Giorgi – George(s) is an English/French spelling. Giorgi is Italian (like Giorgio – not Georgeo). The patrician families living Dubrovnik are Croatian citizens and do not use the Slavic version of the name (except for 1 Gozze- Gučetić). From personal observation in Dubrovnik, the Slavic version is dominant in any public space (museums, commemorative street plaques, street names) and official brochures for tourists, etc. During “Yugoslavia” the Dubrovnik Museum only showed the Slavic names on all the descriptive tags (in Croatian and English) next to paintings of aristocrats, even when the painting itself had the non-Slavic name painted on it (Ghetaldi, Bona, Pozza, etc.). Since 1991, the English labels (but not the Croatian) also have the non-Slavic name, but not always. My point is that these families (who still exist!!) have used non-Slavic sounding names for centuries and continue to do so today. Even Croatian passports have this “non-Slavic” version, which I prefer to call authentic Ragusan aristocracy (pre-1667 earthquake) version. Many of these families came from other countries (Germany via Italy for the Bona family, others from Albania, Greece, etc.). Why is the Slavic version being “pushed”? Does adding an ić make them more Croatian? Does it embellish Croatian history? Is it a Croatian defense mechanism to silence Italians (who not knowing any better) would claim that these families were Italian? Is it not possible to accept that not all Croatians have names ending in ić and these people are Croatian? Viewing any Croatian TV program will show you a vast array of names that have German, Italian, Hungarian, etc. origins. Are these people less Croatian than everyone else? As I have discussed with Ivan Štambuk on the (so far incorrect) entry for “Marin Bunić” (Marino de BONA of Lima, Peru), this is like calling Giuseppe Verdi, Josip Zeleni, if he were born in Croatia. Who has this right to change people’s names? From Robin Harris’ book “Dubrovnik – A history” (ISBN-13: 978-0863563324) he states on page 13: “A note on Names: Both personal and place names in Dubrovnik and elsewhere in Southeastern Europe are subject to many variants reflecting political change and cultural mixture. The great families of Dubrovnik had both Italian and Croatian variants of their names. Scholars have chosen one or the other form or even the Latin version that most often appears in official documents. All these options are equally valid, and none is absolutely so. I have used the Slavic form throughout simply because that is the most commonly found in the historiography.1 No other significance is implied.” Note 1 is explained on page 434: “1. It appears that from late medieval times the great Ragusan families were more likely to use the Italian version of their names, while commoners increasingly used the Slavic version of theirs. But the pursuit of uniformity and simplicity seemed to me more important to try to catch these shifting nuances.” In our family (de Bona), only my great uncle used the combination “de Bona-Bunić” as he was a military career man and because it sounded more “Yugoslav/Croatian”. So, shouldn’t the Pučić Palace be called the Pozza Palace and Buničeva Poljana, Bonina Poljana (it is surrounded by three buildings with the Bona family crest)? I know that’s not going to happen but I hope some of you will think of it when you walk by these two places ;) Nikolica Bunić …Nikolica de Bona? (see the original plaque inside the entrance of the Dubrovnik City Hall in Latin – Nicolaus de Bona). Tombs of the patrician families can be seen in Boninovo and Sveti Mihajlo including very ancient Ghetaldi and Gondola tombs. All have the non-Slavic names…even for burials taking place in the 20th century and during Tito’s Yugoslavia. If anyone has (reliable) sources showing the use of the Bunić name prior to 1918, I would be interested in knowing about them. I would like to rest assured that this is not something that came out of a Ministry of Culture in Belgrade during the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes. Excuse my ignorance…should I be wrong. It is interesting to note that even during the Austrian time, Dubrovnik street names had “Italian” names like Ulica Zuz(z)erina (for Fiora Zuzzo(e)ri or Zuzzeri (Cvijeta Zuzorić) ….a distant relative (my paternal great-grandfather’s maternal grandmother was born Zuzzori – in Albania!)). Regarding the meeting of the Greater Council which met for the last time on August 29, 1814, it seems all the names are preceded by the Italian “di” whereas as far I know it was never used in our family and does not appear in our family tree, which goes back to the 13th century. We use the Latin “de”. It is interesting to note the Zlatarich (Slatarich) name…no one seems to have forced them to change it to “Zlatari/Slatari” or even the Italian “Orafo”! Regarding language, my great-grandparents who were both from 100% Ragusan families (in Dubrovnik for centuries – Bona, Rubricius, Bizzarro, Bersa, etc.) spoke Italian among themselves because this was the language of the upper class (along with a mixture of other languages (they had a French governess)). With my grandfather and his brothers, they spoke Croatian, and the children spoke Croatian among themselves. I may have opened (another) can of worms but facts are facts (the descendants of these three families use the non-Slavic name) and history should not be changed because it suits someone for xyz reasons. Debona.michel (talk) 13:08, 23 September 2008 (UTC) Debona.michel (talk) 14:14, 23 September 2008 (UTC) Debona.michel (talk) 15:23, 23 September 2008 (UTC) Debona.michel (talk) 15:29, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So what is wrong in the article from your point of view? --DaQuirin (talk) 16:21, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think all the non-Slavic names of noble families should appear throughout the article. For example, Ivan Gundulić should also appear as Giovanni Francesco Gondola, Ivan Bunić Vucić as Giovanni Serafino de Bona, etc. As far as the de Bona family is concerned, I would not put the Bunić name anywhere as it has not been used by our family. For all the other entries of families which did not use the Slavic name, the non-Slavic name should come first and the Slavic equivalent should be in parentheses (if at all in some cases).

Debona.michel (talk) 07:45, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Slavic names are prevalent (>95% of all sources in all languages excepting the Italian) in today's scholarship, and they should be used throughout the article accordingly. All the nobilities' family names are listed bilingual in Dalmatian/Croatian, and all the individual articles on noble personae have Italian/Dalmatian/Latin "variety" of their name in the lead. The change that you're proposing, of using e.g. 'Ivan Gundulić/Giovanni Gondola' consistently in running text, would render the article's appearance very strange. Articles on Old Dubrovnik noble families already emphasize their Italian name "counterpart" more than any other English (or any other FL other than Italian) source, which should be more than enough. WP should IMHO just follow what mr. Harris concluded, in the excerpt you provided: I have used the Slavic form throughout simply because that is the most commonly found in the historiography. No other significance is implied. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 16:18, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think putting both versions of names everywhere would really be a problem in a 10-page file. If it's a problem, Robin Harris' phrase “1. It appears that from late medieval times the great Ragusan families were more likely to use the Italian version of their names, while commoners increasingly used the Slavic version of theirs." should appear somewhere at the top or bottom of the patrician family names section. Also, I would enter "Bona / Bunić" rather than "Bunić / Bona" as Bona is the original name, which later received a Slavic form for nationalist and political reasons. Gundulic came from Gondola rather than the other way around (I'm assuming that you agree with me on that or is the gondola a Croatian boat?). Re your statement that more than 95% of all sources showing the Slavic form as being prevalent, is there any that shows a document signed with the name Bunić? I suppose that if I ever become famous, my entry in Wikipedia will say "Miho Bunić" (with Michel de Bona in paretheses with the "de" removed) even though I have never been known as this person?

Debona.michel (talk) 11:29, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It wouldn't be a problem, but it would look very awkward. There is a similar dual-naming dispute with toponymics (not just Croatian vs. Dalmatian/Italian/Latin etc. but with lots of other languages in border regions where diglossia is common and where dialects are shared with several ethnicities), and per WP:NCGN policy page and some other related ones, this dual-naming should be avoied at the expense of lesser used name. Hence no Munich/München, it's just Munich in the running text with German equivalent (also frequently used in English), in the lead.
Statements like "Slavic name was use for nationalist and political reasons" are perhpas correct in some individual cases, but judging from covers of e.g. Gundlić's works which were printed in Venice during his very lifetime and which you can see on his WP article, they all have Gundulich and none Gondola, so it follows that at least one highly-prominent individual preferred his "Slavicized" name as opposed to the "noble patrician" Italian/Dalmatian equivalent.
It is possible that some of those nobility names were subsequently Slavicized for some political purposes, but we'd rather see some evidene before you make edits like this, in which you claim that e.g. Marin Bunić was politically-motivated coinage, or Slavicism spread to other languages. So far the only evidence you've presented is someone's personal web page, and a WP mirror.. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 12:42, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I agree with Munich/München but here were are talking about family names that are still in use today. The evidence is my name and all the Bona (not Bunic), Gozze and Sorgo in Dubrovnik and the tombstones in Sveti Mihajlo and Boninovo. Do we have to give evidence that we exist? Aren't the phone book entries enough? Should I take pictures of the tombstones and post them? Why doesn't the Gondola tomb in Sveti Mihajlo say Gundulić (or Gundulich) on it? 82.226.211.122 (talk) 13:26, 26 September 2008 (UTC) Debona.michel (talk) 12:23, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The problem of the languege is not a problem for the Ragusan people, they were bilingual, but in Europe, speak a common language (German, Italian, Spanish) and the local or region dialect, In Venetia, they called the Standar Italian and the Veneto Dialect, In Munchen, speak the german and the Bavarian Dialect, and in Ragusa/Dubrovnik, they speak the italian (modern concept) and the local dialect "SLAVONIAN". For other part, the Gondola or Gundulic family, used the Gondola name in the official documents, tomstones and others, but in the local spell was accept the bilingual dualist term, GUNDULIC, my mother lines comes from the Ghetaldi-Gondola family, all the old documents were in italian and the testament of the last male member Sigismondo de Gondola (1712 -1800) was wrote and signed in italian. The signed of Segismondo Ghetaldi-Gondola (1795 -1860) were alls in italian. --Ragusino (talk) 12:42, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]


I also just checked my great-great-grandfather's testament (Eduardo Biagio de Bona - born 1816 - Captain in Senj). The testament is written in Italian and signed Eduardo de Bona. He had six children (5 girls and 1 boy) and the first names are Slavic except for the boy, Marino (not Marin). The girls' first names are mentioned as Mare, Ida, Nike, Guste (Augusta) and Lize. Officially I think they had an equivalent Italian-sounding official first name like Augusta (for Guste) because we have a picture of her and it says "Augusta de Bona" on it. Further searching the Bona Bunic debate, I came across this document that seems to be written in Vienna in 1904. It mentions all the prominent Ragusan and Kotor families.

http://www.archive.org/stream/denkschriften49stuoft/denkschriften49stuoft_djvu.txt

For Bona, it does mention Bunic as being the Slavic equivalent so now I know that it existed before 1918! Also, it mentions the Bona name in relation to Lokrum island (Lacroma) already in the 10th century. The document mentions some families as having the same origin but changing their name to a Slavic form when they lived in a different city (like Ston). I will try to find a document showing the first mention of the Bunic name to see when it started appearing.

Debona.michel (talk) 12:21, 30 September 2008 (UTC)Debona.michel (talk) 09:03, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Michael Debona, i was create all the Patrician Families article, you have genealogical info about Francesca de Bona +1785, wife of Segismondo de Gondola (+1800)?, and for other part the ultime Ragusan male line of the Ragusan families are: de Bona, de Saraca (live in Italy), Gozze and de Zamagna, the Sorgo family doesn`t exist, only exist the Mirosevic-Sorgo family (female line). Regards, pd: i live in Chile.--Ragusino (talk) 12:42, 1 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.21.64.226 (talk) [reply]

Hi Ragusino,

The family tree we have comes from a book written by Irmgard Mahnken. Unfortunately, her research goes from the 13th to the 16th centuries only. We were able to work our way back to the 16th century with our own family documents and we were able to find our branch. If we find anything on Francesca de Bona, I will let you know but as far as we can see, she was not from our branch.

Debona.michel (talk) 14:22, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Michael Debona, for other part, What`s the date and place of Eduard de Bona?, you could send me or added the info in the House of Bona? you can complete the info?. thanks, my e-mail is abogado_dechile@hotmail.com.Ragusino (talk) 12:42, 7 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.21.68.67 (talk) [reply]

This discussion continues on the "House of Bona" discussion pages on Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:House_of_Buni%C4%87/Bona

82.226.211.122 (talk) 08:54, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Established? When? Let`s end this (if we can),once and for all.

Republic of Ragusa was established in which year and why?

  1. 1032...Why?Battle,yeah and?
  2. 1358...date of independence from Venice...Why not use year 1458,independence from Hungary?

Any other toughts?

(Earliest knez/duke mentioned by name in documents is Lampridije(Lampridius in latin,I supose) in the year 1023 (that`s what I have found in books),so Republic must be older then this date.) CrniBombarder!!! Шумски Крст (†) 02:59, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like we have a real mystery on our hands... Does anyone know the exact year of the Republic's foundation? --DIREKTOR (TALK) 18:00, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm It's very important to notice that concept of vasalage in Medieval ranged from very loose symbolical connection of a "vasal" to the mighty imperor (protectorats of any degree), to direct service to his interests territorially or in religious way. So we have situation that Venetian Republic was Byzantine vasal for a few centuries in the beginning, which can be seen in the early Venetian Republic official documents - all mentioned the name of the Byzantine Emperor in its leads or titles, but in the same time the Venetians didn't have some special duties to serve him, except in global occassions. The very same situation was with the cities of Byzantine Dalmatia, there was Byzantine strategos in Zadar, a capital of Byzantine thema, but this Byz Dalmatia never had the real thematic organization (military province with its army), also Dalmatian cities didn't always pay their tribute to Byzant and in the last century of this "vasalage" it's impossible to find any relation of these cities to Byzant.
Another fact: concept of "republic" didn't reflect its total indenpendence, republic could have been "protected" by some ruler of royal legacy, as seen in Venice example, but also in Dubrovnik case and Hungary. Dubrovnik "protected" by another authority in the beginning doesn't eliminate neccessarily its republic organization. Anyhow in this case dates are known.
The real birthday of Dubrovnik indenpendence was 18th February 1358 - Treaty of Zadar agreement. But the real base of Ragusan Republic was Višegrad contract signed with Louis I in 27th May 1358, which gave special privilegies to Ragusan commune. Until the middle of 15th century Ragusan documents never mentioned "republic" - it was Communitas Ragusina (from 12th century), from 15th century it was Republica Ragusina. However, officially Republic existed from 1358 to 1808 according to all relevant sources, change in the documents in 15th century was not reflection of some important constitution change or political position. It seems that someone mixed the concepts of commune and republic. Zenanarh (talk) 13:52, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion seems off topic, since the Republic was not "independent" in the modern sense, see "Ottoman suzerainty". --DaQuirin (talk) 14:43, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
??? the discussion is not about "indenpendence", it's about Republic. 1st half of my comment is answer on Crni Bombarder's allusions: indenpendence=Republic. Zenanarh (talk) 06:15, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OK Once again, contract signed in Visegrád on 27th May 1358 between King Louis I of Hungary&Croatia and the Archbishop Ivan Saraka is considered to be the basis of the Republic establishment. In Ragusan documents used for their international relations it was still "commune" for the next 100 years, from 2nd half of 15th century there was "republic". "Commune" was recorded in Ragusan documents from 12th century, it seems that someone has misinterpreted it and concluded that 12th century should be the age of the Republic establishment. Which was not the case, otherwise other Dalmatian city-communes could be also recognized as republics. User CrniBombarder removed year 1358 from the info box with comment: removing 1358,`cause it was founded centuries earlier. Well, it was not. It was 1358, but because of "Visegrád Contract" and not because of a few months earlier "Treaty of Zadar". Zenanarh (talk) 07:33, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The article encompasses the Communitas Ragusina (later renamed) as well. The research literature on the Ragusan Republic does not take the 14th century as starting point (otherwise it should be clearly stated here). There were of course other Dalmatian city-communes as you said. --DaQuirin (talk) 10:59, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Different dates can be seen. Croatian Heraldic and Vexillologic Association says 1272-1808 [24]. 1272 was year of the city Statute, not the Republic establishment!
Zdenka Janeković-Römer, Višegradski ugovor temelj Dubrovačke Republike [Visegrád Privilege: Foundations of the Republic of Dubrovnik]. Zagreb: Golden marketing, 2003. [25] You can download full text in English. It's 1358.
The most of sources use 14th century as beginning. What literature do you use? Zenanarh (talk) 11:57, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What do you mean exactly with "establishment", if it's not about "independence" (see above). Many city-states and republic did not use "res publica". I think, you give too much weight on the name change here. For the literature: * Francis W. Carter: Dubrovnik (Ragusa): A Classic City-State. London und New York 1972 ISBN 0128129506 * Harriet Bjelovučić: The Ragusan Republic. Victim of Napoleon and Its Own Conservatism. Leiden 1970 * Robin Harris: Dubrovnik. A History. London 2003. ISBN 0-86356-332-5 * Ilanga von Mettenheim: Die Republik Ragusa. Zur Geschichte des heutigen Dubrovnik. Frankfurt a.M. 1989. ISBN 3-89228-388-5 --DaQuirin (talk) 13:25, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
When I say "establishment" I mean: gaining special previleges which made that city-commune more autonomical than the rest. It's wrong to use term "republic" in Medieval in modern meaning, of course. However, the Medieval Mediterranean was a region where a few of such "city-republics" developed. Only "Visegrád contract" gave such privileges to the Ragusans. One of the reasons why there is so much differencies in dates could be often (inconsiderate and a little bit romantic) retrograde usage of the term "Republic of Ragusa" in the books, reffering to the pre-14th century occasions or accidents, making it very easy to misinterpret. But looking from scientific perspective, it's wrong. In 13th century Dubrovnik was nothing different than the other Dalmatian cities, like Trogir, Zadar, Rab,... While these cities fell into Venetian hands in 1408 and therefore lost completely their city-commune autonomies, Dubrovnik was saved mainly because of its position based on Visegrad contract, which made it distinctive from the others in political sense. The city statute in 1272 was nothing special. The most of other Dalmatian cities had it too, from 12th, 13th or 14th century. Treaty of Zadar in 1358 didn't result with 15 Dalmatian city-republics. It was a peace signing with Venice. But a few months later "Visegrad contract" did result with Dubrovnik recognised as the city-republic soon after. That's the point. Zenanarh (talk) 18:19, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You're right concerning the name change, I've mentioned it only as supplement to the story, but it appeared like I was leaning on it, which was not the case. It just made my comment less understandable. Sorry. Zenanarh (talk) 18:31, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Names of (notable) Ragusans

Let's get something straight once and for all. Ragusan names are Slavic. Ragusan children have been given these names for hundreds of years. Their Italian or Latin versions were only used when in contact with the Italians or with foreigners in general. More than 90% of Ragusan names are short, two-syllable names that end in –o (male) and in –e (female), for example Đivo, Frano, Maro, Pero (male) and Đive, Frane, Mare, Pere (female). Ragusans used only this variant, not other, longer variants used in this article. One can find numerous evidence of this in Ragusan literature.

To illustrate, I will use the names of two Ragusan writers from the 17th century. In all their books (originals, not 20th century editions) we find their names written like this: Đivo Frana Gundulić and Džono Palmotić. In the article the names Ivan Gundulić and Junije Palmotić were used for these two writers, names that they never used by themselves, names that are just translations from Latin or Italian to Croatian. My question is: if there is a valid Ragusan (Slavic) name, then why on earth would someone want to translate it from Italian or Latin into Croatian, if it is the same language?

Another thing about the names, Ragusans rarery (read: never) had two names, e.g. John Matthew. In cases like Đivo Frana Gundulić, we are not dealing with two names. The writer's name was Đivo Gundulić and Frana is a Slavic genitive referring to his father Frano, in English it would look like this: Đivo Frano's Gundulić. This was neccessary beacuse there was another Đivo Gundulić at the time, so there was a need to differentiate between the two namesakes. When they translated these names into Latin, Ragusans just put the „second“ name into genitive, e.g. Lucas Marini Sorgo (Ragusan rector in the year 1710). For those that don't understand Latin, Marinus is the basic form of the name and Marini means „of Marinus“. In Italian, however, there is no such genitive. Gundulić's name would look like this: Giovanni de Francesco Gondola. Since this is not estetically pleasing, Ragusans then just decided to „lose“ the genitive and to write Giovanni Francesco Gondola. Hence the wrong translation Dživo Frano Gundulić, like he had two names.

Just another friendly advice for all Slavic speakers, Croats, Serbs or any other (non-Slavic speakers can ignore this paragraph). Koristite Đivo, ne Dživo, koristite Džono, ne Đono. Ovo su imena kojijeh još ima danas u Dubrovniku, posebno u prezimenima ko što su Đivanović, Đivović, Đivoje i Džono (iz Konavala i Dubrovačkog Primorja). Također, deklinacija dubrovačkih imena je drukčija nego što bi očekivali. Đivo se deklinira Đivo, Điva, Đivu, Điva, Đivo, Đivu, Đivom, ne kao što je vama uobičajeno. Ovakva deklinacija se koristi i u Imotskoj krajini, u Istočnoj Bosni, južnim dijelovima Srbije i u Crnoj Gori. Smatra se krivom u Hrvatskoj, u BiH i u Srbiji su oba dvije dopuštene, a u Crnoj Gori se, mislim, samo ova smatra točnom. U Dubrovačkoj regiji se ova deklinacija koristi i službeno i neslužbeno, i u imenima ulica i na sudovima.

And now for my contemplative conclusion.

Why can't Ragusans write down the names of their ancestors in the correct, Ragusan way. Why does every Croat, Serb and Italian have an opinion, and their opinions count and the opinion of Ragusans is judged so insignificant that it is not even worth asking for? Imagine if your grandfather, that you loved very much, was called John. How would you feel if someone kept telling you that you are wrong to call him that because he was really named Peter. Think about this for a minute... I believe I'm right to assume that in remembering him and in mentioning him you would stick with John.

That's all we ask. Please, pretty please, don't write OUR history for us.


--A Ragusan Historian (professional, not amateur) Rag. Historian (talk) 10:40, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Republic_of_Ragusa&oldid=257026437"