Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Trivia sections

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Recent edits

I saved NickPenguin's changes to Wikipedia:Trivia sections/draft2. I reverted those changes basically because they were major changes, not just copyedit-type stuff, and there didn't seem to be consensus for most of it yet. Specific changes were:

Removal of "Trivia sections should not be categorically removed", which doesn't seem like a good idea.
Moving content into a section titled "Trivia sections", when the entire guideline is about trivia sections to begin with
Moving the "Not all list sections are trivia sections" section into the lead, and moving much of the lead down into the "Trivia sections" section. This seems like an arbitrary exchange, and rather than have a redundant "Trivia sections" section, it seems like the "not all lists" content would serve better as the separate section -- especially for emphasis. Remember that some people who read guidelines just glance at the "headlines". It helps to give important points their own headers. Equazcion •✗/C • 19:26, 29 Feb 2008 (UTC)

I'd like the not categorically removed point kept, but appended with "unless it is appropriate to remove all the content within the section" or something like that. It would get the point across that removing the sections just because they're called Trivia sections isn't a good method to use, but it would also not ban the removal of the section if all the content in it is truly inappropriate for the article. Bill ^{(talk|contribs)} 20:04, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What if we made "Trivia sections should not be categorically removed" a section title? --Nick Penguin_(contribs) 20:16, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally, per Wikipedia:Five pillars about Wikipedia containing elements of specialized encyclopedias, apparently there are specialized encyclopedias on trivia. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 20:23, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

←To Bill: "Trivia sections should not be categorically removed" (emphasis added) means that they shouldn't be removed just because they are trivia sections. By definition is still leaves open other motivations for removing the sections. Also I don't think specifically telling people they can remove the entire section is a good idea; I think it's best to keep the focus on individual items. Then, if all the items have been removed, the section header can obviously be removed. People should be focusing on the items themselves anyway, rather than on the question of "should a trivia section be here". Nick: I don't think another separate section is really necessary... the stuff in the lead right now, I think, should probably stay there, rather than be moved down in favor of the "not all lists..." content. I don't see what the value is in that reorganization. Equazcion •✗/C • 20:32, 29 Feb 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. I agree that the focus should entirely be on the content and not the name of the section being the decider for validity. Bill ^{(talk|contribs)} 22:23, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Last 2 contributions above are the most sensible things ever written here Albatross2147 (talk) 08:28, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Style Guideline Validity

Taking the trivia section on a movie page removes one of the best and most unique parts of Wikipedia. Not sure where else to put this but it is an idea that needs to be considered. 67.183.201.165 (talk) 09:04, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since IMDB and TV.com writeups both have "Trivia" sections, this feature is hardly unique. It should be considered that encyclopedias are written without "Trivia" sections. This guideline does not advise editors to remove this information, but to integrate such information into the article. / edg ☺ ☭ 09:14, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have stayed out of discussions for the last several weeks hoping that a useful guideline would emerge. While there has been considerable progress (easy for me to say, things are going in the general direction I like), the basic problem remains unresolved. Some of us are categorically opposed to trivia sections and will continue to remove them while others of us see trivia sections as of value in some circumstances. After several months of discussion and revision, it seems to me that the real problem is not the language of the the style guides, it is the unwillingness of some editors to accept that others do not agree with nor are willing to conform to their stylistic ideals. Personally, every time someone high handedly informs me that trivia is always avoidable, I want to run out and add a trivia section to the driest, most stylistically rigid articles in the whole project. I resist the urge, but every time I see an attack on one of my favorite articles, it angers me. I suggest an alternative solution. We continue to discourage trivia sections - the guidelines as they are now written are really pretty good - and we agree to leave those sections which are in existence alone until after thorough discussion and consensus is reached on each and every single trivia section. Those who simply can't bear to see anything fun or joyful in our wiki will then have to pursuade the rest of us before killing things off; those who have carelessly 'dumped' useless or random data into a trivia section will also be helped to eliminate or clean it up. Oh, and a bot could remove those annoying trivia cleanup notices.Panthera germanicus (talk) 18:39, 2 March 2008 (UTC)panthera_germanicus 18:39, 2 March 2008 (UTC)Panthera germanicus (talk::that's ::There's a distinction between the section, and the content. Most of what accumulates of trivia sections is valid content, but is better moved elsewhere -- the production details go with the production, the use in subsequent media goes in a section on that, and so forth. The real problem is with the people who want to diminish the general extent of coverage of fictional and entertainment topics. they should simply work on what they do want to work on, and try to attain a general tolerance of each others' interests. DGG (talk) 20:59, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Trivia sections are fun! Don't get rid of them, otherwise trivia will be included into paragraphs and they'll become digressive - 211.30.227.30 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 07:43, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

B k: Wikipedia is not just a list of facts, and that is why a trivia section is often essential. We learn from a narrative thread, which strings a series of facts into something of a story---and a key feature to good narrative is that it excludes some details. The current format for many Wikipages is a narrative providing a baseline understanding and overview, followed by a set of facts that are relevant but would just interfere with the narrative if placed earlier. I believe this is ideal. Readers walk away with both the understanding provided by well-written text and by the additional facts. With a trivia section, casual contributors have a place to add relevant information without dumping a digression into the existing narrative, or doing extensive rewrite they may not have time/skill to do.

The current policy seems to imply that any fact on any subject can either fit into the narrative (possibly via a list placed mid-story) or is irrelevant. This is just not the case, because good narrative can be destroyed by including facts that some would consider very relevant, and although one can often design a narrative that covers all details, that's often beyond the time and skill of the average contributor throwing out a quick fact.

Perhaps better would be to say something like "items in trivia sections should be folded into the main narrative where possible." This acknowledges that we'd rather have facts in a narrative than an unruly bunch of facts, but also that any narrative must exclude certain salient facts to remain readable and educational. —Preceding unsigned comment added by B k (talk • contribs) 17:10, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well said. I don't have your eloquence, but you have done a superb job of explaining exactly my feelings as well.DavidPickett (talk) 05:02, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I like it as well. -- Ned Scott 23:56, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

KEEP THEM

Keep the f&%@%&%# things! I'm talking mostly through my frustrations with the Family Guy pages, but I still think they should be kept! What I'm starting to see with Familt Guy pages, and possibly other pages, is that the trivia sections (called "Notes," Trivia", and "Cultural Refrences") are starting to be made into paragraph form, when they have nothing to do with each other! And another thing, the facts are starting to become inacurate in thoes sections! I;m sure this has been detected and corrected, butr a few months ago, the arical for Whistle While Your Wife Works, in the "Production" section, which is replacing the trivia sections, I beleive it stated that the DVD commentary said that Seth MacFarlane's dad sang "It's a hole in the bottom of the sea" as Stewie, which is false. Also, the new "meets the guidelines" sections are dificult to follow. That is all. With all due respect, BrianGriffin-FG (talk) 22:58, 13 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Can't really blame a style guideline if other editors have inserted false information, since it would be false in paragraph form or list form. It is a problem if people are simply throwing unrelated tidbits in the same section, since that's no better than a list (as far as the concerns this guideline tries to address), so maybe we can say something to help discourage that. -- Ned Scott 08:06, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Listen, I like unrelated tidbits, and I like the list form. When I first started coming here, I thought that the articals with the lists where well organized; there was a intro, a plot, some trivia, and some refrences to other stuff. Now what I'm seeing is the lists are being made into paragraphs that are hard to follow, and that's making the articals disorganized. You see my point?--BrianGriffin-FG (talk) 20:46, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not all tidbits are "unrelated", and certainly not all tidbits are reallocated in paragraph form. Often short selective lists are the best way to present this information, which is preferred over an unselective and openended list. --Nick Penguin_(contribs) 21:15, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If anyone turns a reasonably well-organized list into poor prose, that's the wrong thing to do. If people assume that's what this guideline is recommending, that's wrong. Additionally, if someone turns a not-very-well organized list into even poorer prose, that's even more wrong.

Perhaps it would be worthwhile to offer better guidance on when organized lists are preferable to "integration into prose".--Father Goose (talk) 01:42, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing in this guideline recommends turning lists into "poor prose". Editors who feel their points are best made by typing in ALLCAPS would do well to add information in bullet list form and let others fix it. / edg ☺ ☭ 16:25, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, with the people who want to keep the trivia sections, I have learned many things from those sections! KEEP THEM! --Ian.hawdon (talk) 15:33, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

While I am not against the existence of trivia sections, they are most often not sourced and as such should be removed. Well sourced trivia that is not original research is okay in moderation, but limited. Hey, notice I said all that without typing all capital words? _(1 == 2)^Until 15:38, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The disadvantages of "Trivia" sections include that they are often unsourced, can often give WP:Undue weight to their material, and are often written in a manner which would be completely unacceptable anywehre else. As such, they can be, and often are, the most problematic part(s) of any article. I cannot see how it would be acceptable to demand that we keep sections which are among the most problematic parts of any article. Having said that, I myself have often contributed to sections containing what others consider trivia, but those sections are more specifically named and have greater content guidelines than a simple "trivia" section does. John Carter (talk) 15:53, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In summary: lists titled "trivia" = bad; lists of miscellaneous information = not necessarily bad, use digression/common sense. And I think that's about as clear cut as it'll get. --Nick Penguin_(contribs) 22:18, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That way of phrasing it may have the effect of oversimplifying. Re-titling Trivia sections to get around this guidelines is usually missing the point. / edg ☺ ☭ 16:25, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I like so-called trivia sections. * They encapsulate intriguing facts that it might take a whole paragraph to explicate ... ballooning articles with fluff is bad. * It was the style in old works to put such tidbits in footnotes (actually at the bottom of every printed page) for decades. * Trivia are easy for beginners to add; they or someone else can work them into paragraphs later * There's a clear popular interest in such things (distressing to the elitists, I'm sure).

The question of what is "trivial" is clearly philosophical. The declaration that something is trivial presumes that the declarer has an omniscient POV; if we learn anything from history it's that the little things aren't dispensable, and may even be critical. While it probably won't, today's trivium may assume great magnitude at some future date.

Finally, good books are not only humorous but human. Stiff rigid books more interested in abstract standards than humanity are largely passed into history. Which would most of us rather read? QED Twang (talk) 19:59, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also agreed. Given the HIGH number of article pages which have Trivia sections in one form or another, maybe it's time that they were given credit on Wikipedia. I'm all for integrating content into the article when and where it makes sense, and even this policy notes that a trivia section presentation is better than nothing at all. Quite frankly, I find the "Discouraged" banners far more distracting and unencyclopedic than the material usually contained therein. I'm not saying the policy should go away, but maybe it's time Wikipedia recognized that "discouraged" is inappropriate given the high volume of articles containing them. And maybe it's time for that banner to go away as well, or be located elsewhere in the article (maybe at the bottom of it?) 98.215.48.213 (talk) 06:54, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. The trivia sections provide interesting notes about the article As long as the information is accurate, I believe that they should be kept. It doesn't make a difference whether they are in list or paragraph form, but we are more used to the list form. Trivia is not only interesting to read, but in times, they are also informational. I propose to bring them back.

O—— The Unknown Hitc hh ik er 15:38, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't about list vs paragraph, it's more about what section the information is found in. The "trivia" we're talking about isn't any more or less interesting to read than any other fact in the article. There's no difference between them, except one group of facts is unorganized. We really need to make an FAQ for this guideline.. -- Ned Scott 01:08, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As someone who doesn't even have a username, and has never edited wiki other then the talk pages (honestly I don't think I'd be very good at it). I don't have a huge understanding of all the rules and guidelines and their rational. However they aways seem to have positive impacts and I'm very impressed with the editors and the general quality and evolution of Wikipedia articles. The one rule/guidline I will never appreciate is the "no trivia" rule. I agree in may cases intergrating this trivia makes the article more unorganized and makes information harder to locate. I believe it should be allowed for certian articles. While it would seem out of place in an article about a person, I think a trivia list would be useful and beneficial in an article about an television episode, a movie, a book, and maybe even the more general television series articles. I wonder if it possible to change this rule to only cover certian articles? Or at least open up discussion on the issue. Is "no trivia" really set in stone? Seems like everything else in the Wiki community is open to debate, evolution, and discussion.

This guideline isn't a "no trivia" rule. Basically it's about the organisation of information on the page. Imagine in a movie article, an item in a trivia section that says "Originally Chuck Norris was cast as the protagonist". It makes much more sense to have that piece of information in the casting section instead of separated into a section with facts that aren't related to casting. That's just one kind of example I've seen before. The actual content of an article is governed by other policies and the consensus around that article. The guideline also states that information should not be removed just because it is in a trivia section. Bill ^{(talk|contribs)} 18:35, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also agree. While there seems to be a movement to make Wikipedia more like Britannica, Wikipedia doesn't have the space constraints that a physical(book) encyclopedia has. If you're against trivia sections for this reason, you might as well remove all but the most culturally significant pop culture articles as they would never make it onto Britannica. Aside from legal issues, or excessively long bandwidth/processor munching articles, there isn't a valid reason to attack a section that can easily be ignored by those who hate them, or found by those who like them. It's not like there will ever be a trivia section in a scientific article like Australopithecus; such articles are in a different world when compared to pop culture articles. People interested in pop culture are also interested in how an article's topic is tied into other aspects of pop culture. When I crawl scientific articles, I usually end up crawling through See Also. When I crawl pop culture articles, I usually crawl through Trivia. Trivia bashing is an absurd waste of time, and needless to say, I roll my eyes whenever I see the trivia template. Sarysa (talk) 16:11, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I too agree, Trivia sections are very interesting to read, and make reading about certain topics a much more enjoyable experience. I suggest, that if the issue is un-cited trivia - then institute a policy that all trivia must be cited, and moderate it! Don't remove all the sections just because a few facts are wrong - you may as well disband wikipedia in that case! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.108.124.61 (talk) 21:02, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The guideline is about organisation of information not the banning of trivia. It specifically states that it does not suggest the inclusion or exclusion of any information. If the information is fine then it can be kept. Secondly, In popular culture sections are not covered by this guideline, if such a section is tagged as a trivia section then it can be untagged. It's likely however, that the section will need the {{prose}} tag instead. Bill ^{(talk|contribs)} 18:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the above, that triva is useful and insigful and that it should, most defenitly, be kept and NOT integrated into a paragraph. 12.214.32.101 (talk) 06:01, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree wholeheartedly. Many comments above are very insightful. "Trivia" comments are often odd bits of information that don't belong elsewhere, don't merit a whole section to themselves, and can't be easily added to other sections. Wikipedia doesn't have the space constraints of other media. I would like to see the REMOVAL of all Trivia Templates. DavidPickett (talk) 15:43, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Trivia should be kept. I mean, what's so wrong with them. Hey, lets randomly pick another part of an article to delete. And seriously, will the encyclopedia fall if we have trivia? --Oh no, it's Alien joe! 14:44, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the note: KEEP THEM. My opinion is that trivia facts/ notes are very nice extra's to a medium as big as wikipedia is. True, sometimes trivia facts are a little odd, but on the long shot its a +. Wikipedia is a encyclopedia but also a place where trivia's belong. KEEP THEM! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.119.143.109 (talk) 21:01, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I like them too. A good place for hard-to-catagorise but nevertheless facinating little facts. GraL (talk) 16:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree so much with this part. KEEP THEM. They make Wikipedia really, really interesting. Also, suddenly all these articles that looked like good, well thought out articles have those horrible things saying that trivia sections are bad. I mean, those things more than anything just remind me that Wikipedia isn't really accurate. They're horrible! Seriously, they make for interesting reading, quite often those lists are the first thing I scroll downt to, to get interesting information, or other points of future reference. They're brilliant...seriously, one of the best parts of Wikipedia in my opinion. Bearon (talk) 05:26, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

KEEP THEM for havens sake, I lerned a lot with them, and although in some artcles they do seam like a bad idea, in others it is great, for exemple in a music or album article. THis guide is not EVIL, the poroblem is that people are using it as a justification to say Wikipidia is not a place for Trivia, and people like that just delete the trivia section.... I've seen some articles that used to have a trivia with usefull information, that now don't have that information at all!201.80.121.30 (talk) 18:38, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You said it exactly. This guide doesn't say anything evil about this fact or that fact being bad, it says that random, disorganized lists are bad. The information in trivia sections should really just be integrated into the rest of the article. Then, we keep all that interesting information and we get rid of a disjointed mess. I hope when a trivia sections "disappears", the editors that integrate the information do it more good than harm. --Nick Penguin_(contribs) 23:13, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Classical music in popular culture

I have created this page in hopes of resolving the ongoing scrapping aout popular culter sections in articles on music compositions. You can read discussion on this matter at the new talk page of the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music/Compositions task force. I would suggest this as a solution to the overall dispute. Of course, this article needs a pruner - a caretaker who will take responsibility for deleting the really irrelevant junk, and for rewriting wherever necessary. I have volunteered to do this for the classical music page (as you can see, I have not yet started). This solution could be applicable to other areas of culture as well.

Regards, --Ravpapa (talk) 10:59, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You might get more helpful feedback from WT:IPC than here. I think there are less than 10 good "In popular culture" articles on Wikipedia, and classical music deserves a good one. The pervasiveness of such music as background, soundtrack, and familiar signifier, would make a list of "spottings" (as it is currently formed) especially unwieldy and unencyclopedic. I would suggest instead of debating which are the most notable examples, the article would be better rewritten to illustrate the meanings and place of classical music in the larger culture, with examples kept where the are most illustrative. Wikipedia:"In popular culture" articles is a decent guideline, and User:Edgarde/IPC (note namespace) an opinionated, unaccepted one that I like. / edg ☺ ☭ 15:50, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Classical music in popular culture is certainly a subject worth having in Wikipedia. However, it's an enormous subject, because of its pervasiveness, as edgarde points out. I could write an entire article about Erik Satie's music in popular culture alone, for instance -- just recently I saw two films with his music, Badlands, which contained an interesting transcription of his Trois Morceaux en forme de Poire on marimba (I believe), and Being There, which contained ragtime-style riffs on his Gnossiennes. In fact, I first fell in love with his music almost 20 years ago when I heard the third Gnossienne in, of all things, a Lexus commercial. So a "Classical music in popular culture" article could only provide an overview of the subject, which could potentially, and informatively, fill hundreds of articles.

It's unfortunate that certain editors find the intersection between high culture and pop culture to be "unencyclopedic". I really would like to have an encyclopedia that contains articles on dead white Europeans that nobody cares about, with supplemental material that reminds the disinterested reader that the subject is in fact relevant to them -- "OMG, the melody of that great Sting song was written by some old dork? I'll have to learn more about him."--Father Goose (talk) 22:02, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikiproject anti trivia

Hello if you hate Trivia sections on Wikipages you should support Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Proposals#Anti-Trivia --Iwilleditu ^Talk :)^{Contributions} 23:10, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know...

Does anyone else see the "Did you know..." section on the main page as a little hypocritical in regards to this policy? TunaSushi (talk) 22:34, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not really, because the main page is a portal that leads into other articles. It's not an article itself, and all that information is organized in other articles. We have discussed the possibility of making a "DYK/trivia/something" box that we could put on articles that would be the same idea and be acceptable. The idea would be that the information would be in both places, in the box and in the article in its proper spot. -- Ned Scott 23:43, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I absoultely agree. I also for this reason find Wikipedia's anti-trivia stance not only hypocritical, but bureaucratic as well.76.177.160.69 (talk) 12:17, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The DYK section is intended to be a showcase for newly-created articles on Wikipedia, and the formatting of the front page is, like Ned says, that of a portal, not that of an article, so different rules of presentation apply.--Father Goose (talk) 00:01, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They're fun. I like them in wikipedia articles too. Is there a prohibition against fun in wikipedia? Seems excessively snooty. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.240.243.170 (talk) 23:51, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Like I said above, we're looking at finding ways to have our cake and eat it too. -- Ned Scott 05:25, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In popular culture

I've added "In popular culture" to the list of the names of trivia sections in the introduction of the article. Given that 95% of the trivia sections in wikipedia articles are titled "In popular culture", it seems silly not to list this. --Xyzzyplugh (talk) 18:32, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The advice given for trivia sections does not fully apply to IPC sections. The popular culture influence of a subject is a specific, often valid subtopic. However, such sections may need to be exported to spinout articles (per WP:SS), or rewritten as prose, or pared back to the most notable instances. The advice to "integrate" them generally does not apply.--Father Goose (talk) 21:37, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally, if you come across specific IPC sections that you feel are in need of cleanup, list them at WP:WPTPC and we'll do what we can.--Father Goose (talk) 21:43, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They have differences. "In popular culture" is for references of the subject in novels, movies, etc. "Trivia" is quick facts that can be fun. Both should be saved (see my rant below). --Oh no, it's Alien joe! 14:42, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Who started the anti-trivia policy?

Who were the people who set the anti-trivia policy? When did Wikipedia became a source of self-censorship... I have seen much interesting information being deleted away because of this policy and it is becoming very sad when knowledge is lost. Referencing from Metal Gear Solid 2, do we really need people to censor for us to keep the best information, while filtering the useless away. I believe we can decide sensibily what is correct and wrong. I used to read Wiki becasue of the interesting titbits, references and triva. Now it´s sad when people are using the anti-trivia policy to delete entire sections of what could be useful and accurate information. 85.0.51.39 (talk) 23:07, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good information should never be deleted, but sometimes it should be moved. It's very hard to know where to draw the line, of course, but if a lot of readers start rolling their eyes, if the information seems to be only by and for the fans of the entertainment, then www.wikia.com and lots of other websites are much better places for it than Wikipedia. The main idea behind the "no trivia" guideline was that trivia should eventually be sorted and sifted and worked into the text, rather than just presented as an embedded list of trivia, as long as a significant number of readers would actually find it interesting. - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 23:25, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Trivia is the only good thing about Wikpedia,keep it.86.87.28.191 (talk) 16:42, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think that if these list or article as trivia can not be shifted or be sorted, the trivia section should be remained. Some of trivia section are lost anything but it be moved/improved. i.e. some good information are lost....

Even though some people say that there are other good websites for trivia, please do not forget that Wikipedia are not in English. I use Wikipedia as world-wide dictionary. My mother language is Japanese, not English. But I can easily access to other language including English in Wikipedia. So, I read other language Wikipedia. For me, it is more hard/taugh work to find out/use other webpage for trivia. Trivia is trivia. Almost people will not get the information by hard work. But if the trivia be in there, people see it.

I think that trivia section's problem can be resolved by following way.

1) Too many information as a dictionary.
Wikipedia have Dynamic Navigation Boxes Wikipedia:NavFrame. This can be covered from people which do not want to see the section.

2) No references articles.
Template:Unreferenced and Template:Fact exist. --HATA A. K. (talk) 11:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the whole 'trivia section are discouraged' template as a bit misleading, as it gives the impression that all information, in a trivia page should not be on Wikipedia (at least thats the impression I got), when the page talks about the information as being unsorted information, and that the trivia page should exist as a temporary section before it is decided where it fits in, when the template gives the impression that the section should be outright deleted because of it is discouraged.

I would suggest changng the template, so that it says 'Information in Trivia sections are unsorted information and are requested to be placed in the valid section' or something along those lines, intead of being misleading until one reads the trivia article. Unless I have got the wrong impression or the article in which case, please explain .The First Darklord (talk) 00:59, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, the template requires revision and is too strong. Dcoetzee 02:55, 14 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Time to revisit its wording then. Unfortunately, template:trivia is currently protected due to its transclusion via WP:FAP. I've made a request to clear that out, and in the next couple of days we should bring the matter up at template talk:trivia.--Father Goose (talk) 04:17, 14 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I got the ball rolling, see Template_talk:Trivia#New_wording.--Father Goose (talk) 02:48, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is my opinion. Trivia is helpful because they give fun and quick facts that knowing could help you win a game show. And also, why do people hate trivia. They are fun and without them, Wikipedia would be boring. I see no reason to remove trivia. as I see it, some band of users one day decided to get rid of part of an article, and wouldn't you know it, they randomly picked trivia. How about we delete see also sections while we are at it. Save the Trivia! --Oh no, it's Alien joe! 14:40, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Trivia" or "Notes"?

I don't know if this is commonplace, but it seems that "Trivia" sections are being renamed "Notes" in order to get around Wikipedia policy on trivia. I love trivia sections myself, but isn't this just the same thing under a different name? Just trying to confirm this for the future.67.177.49.13 (talk) 16:39, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This guideline is pretty clear that "Trivia" is just the most common name for indiscriminate and unselective lists, and other open-ended lists like "Notes", "Facts", "Miscellanea or "Other information" are just variations on the theme. This guideline covers all those lists, and in all those cases, the first task should be to integrate those facts into the article proper, rather than keep a potentially endless section. See the essay Handling Trivia for advice on integration. --Nick Penguin_(contribs) 19:10, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a good idea to rename these lists as 'notes' anyway, since many articles reserve that section header title for footnotes and/or references. Dr. Cash (talk) 21:09, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why is there a trivia section in this article?

Anyone? I find it hilarious. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lowsgt (talk • contribs) 07:07, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It was added quite recently as a joke, and is gone now. Dcoetzee 07:36, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I like it and the idea. --Oh no, it's Alien joe! 14:29, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's a good way of protest, and I told the creator so. --Alien joe (talk) 16:16, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, it really isn't. A good way to protest would be to first read the guideline - so they actually know what they're protesting against - and then offer a cogent argument in favour of their position. Dcoetzee 17:17, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, how do you know that he didn't read the guideline? And what if they didn't want to go into all that trouble, besides, the trivia section was quite helpful. --Oh no, it's Alien joe! 14:28, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Migrate trivia items...to focused lists"

I propose rewording this section. The notion of lists of "cameo" appearances or "references in popular culture" articles are the cause of much angst, and a great deal of that angst is because of the support offered to such articles by this guideline. Rather than "Migrate trivia items to prose, or to focused lists (such as "Cameos" or "References in popular culture"), whichever seems most appropriate." I suggest something like "Integrate trivia items into the body of the article if appropriate. Otherwise, see if there are sources for the effect of the topic on popular culture and consider using the items as a basis for an article that discusses that effect." I feel that this would encourage editors, rather than simply dumping off unweildly lists of "In this movie this one guy said 'Foo'."-style stuff with little or no encyclopedic value and instead encourage them to develop sourced articles on notable topics. Otto4711 (talk) 18:59, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Although the specific examples may not have consensus, I believe it's useful to provide the option of organizing previous trivia items into more focused lists, where this is appropriate. Dcoetzee 19:56, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"In Popular Culture" parody

I though those who frequent this page might find this parody to be rather charming. Cheers! – Clockwork Soul 23:42, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, you beat me to it! :) --Jenny 14:03, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You call that charming? --Oh no, it's Alien joe! 14:36, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, yes I do. - Tbsdy lives (talk) 09:26, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I don't. --

Oh no! it's Alien joe! 20:17, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's nice. - Tbsdy lives (talk) 11:50, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Essay

Read my new essay, Keep trivia, here. --Oh no, it's Alien joe! 15:23, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You may want to read the guideline and consider updating your essay, since this guideline does not and never has advocated removal of trivia. I wrote the bulk of this guideline and I'm an inclusionist who has never identified as holding an anti-trivia position. I and others recently pushed for changes to the template to help clarify that it is not anti-trivia. Your efforts would be better spent in clarifying the guideline to people who believe falsely that it gives them license to kill trivia sections. Besides mischaracterizing policy, your "petition" was deleted for a reason; you're really going about this the wrong way. Dcoetzee 22:48, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Holy heck, ease up and assume good faith. --Oh no! it's Alien joe! 22:02, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am, and I understand your motivation; the above was not said with any intended antagonism. I just disagree strongly with the argument of your essay and believe it mischaracterizes policy. I'm only suggesting ways in which you could more effectively help to preserve the trivia that is useful. Dcoetzee 00:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Kahuna

We have lots of people putting kahuna trivia that is useful to have somewhere but not on the kahuna page, so created a kahuna (disambiguation) page. Is this okay? Thanks. Makana Chai (talk) 23:28, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Seems like a good solution. Thanks for helping clean up this article. / edg ☺ ☭ 03:52, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just spew it all over the article!

The problem with trivia sections is that many people tend to add absolutely irrelevant cruft instead of marginally relevant interesting information. Obviously, the best and most elegant solution to this is to do away with the trivia sections and just integrate all the marginally relevant information all over into the article.
Never mind if it only fits in the leading paragraph and adds less relevant information to a succinct and well-written summary. Never mind if this way spoilers go into the lede; after all, we did away with the trivia sections!
And those who think that all marginally relevant information should be removed from everywhere should be congratulated on their effort to remove information from what's supposedly an encyclopedia with virtually no limit on its size. It's like issuing a policy of No External Links because some of what's added is spam.
In before "oh you just whine and have no better alternative":
1. Have trivia sections but remove everything that's just plain cruft, what's not even marginally relevant.
2. Make this clear to editors in guidelines, have a NoMoreTrivia template like Template:NoMoreLinks.
3. Rejoice.

--Robert Robertson (talk) 13:14, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Integration doesn't just mean converting trivia to prose; it can also mean grouping it into more targeted lists, which may be more appropriate for some forms of "marginally relevant" information. Dcoetzee 13:49, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Trivia sections on some level represent an article that has not yet been written -- just a jumble of facts that could be used to write an article. You toss the completely irrelevant ones and forge a coherent narrative out of the remainder. If there's no easy way to forge such a narrative with some of the more relevant items, leave them in place until someone else comes along with a better idea of where to put them.--Father Goose (talk) 19:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

=Take out the trivia? The trivia was one of the reasons I would come here. Why take away one of the unique aspects of the Wiki?98.204.161.15 (talk) 00:42, 24 August 2008 (UTC)KariB57[reply]

Regarding "In popular culture" sections of articles

Regarding "In popular culture" sections of articles, there are clear cut cases where "In Popular Culture" is OK, because the pop culture phenomenon itself is notable:

The obvious case: Che Guevara in popular culture. Nothing needs to be said; it's a slam dunk for notability. [Note that User:Gavin.collins disagrees, calling that article "...a classic example of content fork, as the subject of the article is of unproven notability, i.e. there are no reliable secondary sources which mention "Che Guevara in popular culture". The article's content is a classical example of synthesis."]
A somewhat-less-obvious but still valid case: Battle of red cliffs#Modern and cultural impact. We have a huge movie, a somewhat-less-huge but still very popular video game series, a statue... etc.

But look at Bodhisattvas#Bodhisattva in popular culture. Two or three things listed there are barely notable in themselves. More importantly, the fact that a notable work mentions Bodhisattva, or even has a character nicknamed Bodhisattva, is patently trivial (see WP:NOT). It has no intrinsic relationship whatsoever to Bodhisattva; the relationship is tangential. No one who is interested in Bodhisattva will be interested in Ian Astbury etc. As per WP:SPADE, these sections are wikilink spam. They are either intended to drive up the wikilink count of borderline-notable articles, or are hagiographic fancruft (see the link to "Point Break")... Can we please start applying (or creating?) robust guidelines regarding these cases of parasitical cruft? Something along these lines:

Information presented in "In popular culture" sections should distinguish between notable pop culture phenomena and connective trivia. Two questions arise: First, should an article about topic X include an "In popular culture" section? Second, if such a section is included, what individual facts should the section contain?

Notability entails references in popular culture. In particular, extremely notable topics such as Bodhisattva or Jesus can generate a correspondingly large number of references that are scattered across a broad range of expressions of pop culture (a kind of "name dropping"). The fact that such pop references exist (and may exist in great number) does not imply that the impact of topic X upon pop culture itself is notable.

The key to inclusion of a particular item in a list of "X in popular culture" should be "Is this item important in understanding the phenomenon of "X in popular culture", or is it merely a single instance of "X in popular culture"? A related question might be, what impact has this individual pop culture reference had upon the pop culture perceptions of topic X?

Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 08:55, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rule Proposal

Okay, Let me make myself clear, I love triva sections, but I have a few guidelines that we could possibly adopt and follow.

1) The trivia sections should be neat and organized, meaning that it will be divided into sections ("Production", "Cultural Refrences", "Notes", ect.)

If you don't know what catagory it should go in, make an "Uncatgorized" setion.

2) [And not a lot of people will like this] But these sections should use BULLET POINTS to make the sections easeir to read and follow.

3) You should have a refrence. If it is from a DVD commentary of a show/movie, the refrence should have "Commentary", the title of the episode, TV show, and/or movie, and roughly the time the fact is stated.

I am not done yet, but I have to go. See ya!--BrianGriffin-FG (talk) 18:12, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure this would work. What if there already is Production and cultural reference sections? Why should the information be split into 2 sections with the same name? How do you decide if one Production note is for the main production section, and another is for the trivia production section? If there isn't these main sections, then why not create them? If the information is valid then it doesn't need to be in a subsection of a section called trivia. Bill ^{(talk|contribs)} 18:47, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

These seem pretty good. Maybeyou should say something to the guys here. --Oh no! it's Alien joe!(Talk) 19:37, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it would be good to revive discussion and activity there. --Nick Penguin_(contribs) 22:57, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I wanna say that the Production section could be about when it started, what happened to make it, ect. To me, "Trivia" wouldn't fit in the main section, and it wouldn't be able to strech into a paragraph on it's own. The same with other sections. And I'm seeing that on the Family Guy articles, the "Cultural Refrence" sections are being catagorized as "Trivia" sections and are started to be treated as such.
Now that that's out of the way, let's go over the rules:

1. The trivia sections should be neat and organized, meaning that it will be divided into sections ("Production", "Cultural Refrences", "Notes", ect.)

If you don't know what catagory it should go in, make an "Uncatgorized" setion.

2. [And not a lot of people will not like this] But these sections should use BULLET POINTS to make the sections easy to read and follow.

3. You should have a refrence. If it is from a DVD commentary of a show/movie, the refrence should have "Commentary", the title of the episode, TV show, and/or movie, and roughly the time the fact is stated. Same for a normal TV episode, movie, book, website, ect.

4. The "piece of trivia" should NOT be able to fit into any of the other sections. If it does, it should be intigrated into said section.

5. And finally, if the fact is from ORIGINAL RESEARCH, (Yeah, I said it) then the research (in a graph/table/chart form) should be posted on the article's talk page, so othe people can go back and check the facts.

If you have anything else to add, please feel free to add it. --BrianGriffin-FG (talk) 00:49, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I still think you'd be arbitrarily choosing what goes into a trivia section and what goes in the main section. I don't like the definition "if it cannot be stretched out to a paragraph then it goes in the trivia section." It's possible for very important facts to be a single sentence, and it's also possible for trivial information to be a paragraph or more long. Bill ^{(talk|contribs)} 01:14, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I see what you're saying. I guess I should have worded that better. What I mean is, if it won't be able to go in the main section without it semming out of place, than it should go in the Trivia section. --BrianGriffin-FG (talk) 01:19, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't understand this guideline

Does this guideline mean we should keep trivia sections or remove them?
While it recommends "integrating relevant information into the main article," that is usually either very hard to do or nearly impossible.
The result is that, rather than actually doing something about the real problem, Hypocritical templates are added to Trivia sections, keeping the section with a useless and annoying template.

Is there any reason for keeping the policy mentioned in subparagraph 3 of my unreasonable argument?

-- Nahum (talk) 12:42, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The guideline suggests we remove the section, but aim keep the contents in some way elsewhere in the article where it would be more logically placed.
People often say that some information is impossible to integrate, but usually somebody is able to figure out a good way of writing the content. It may require bulking up in some way. (eg. From "<actor> was originally cast as the main character" to "<actor> was originally cast for the role of <character>. This was because <reason>. He didn't take the part because <reason> and it meant that <reaction>." and so on). Basically the pieces of info in the trivia section may require a little research or rewriting to make them a bit more encyclopedic.
Some people are either unable or unwilling to reorganise the trivia section at the point when they see one so they tag it. The template helps with categorisation of the issue and it also helps inform people that there is a guideline about this kind of content. I'm not sure what you mean by hypocritical in this context. Bill ^{(talk|contribs)} 14:46, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have strongly favored not placing those templates in articles, but on the talk page instead, since a trivia section can exist in perpetuity under this guideline. This position did not gain consensus support on Template talk:Trivia. Dcoetzee 04:08, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What the creators of this policy failed to understand is the meaning of the word "trivia". According to Dictionary.com it is:

trivia

–plural noun

"matters or things that are very unimportant, inconsequential, or nonessential; trifles; trivialities."

So by that very definition, it is very difficult, and rather foolish, to try to integrate such facts into the main body of text since they are so inconsequential. So this policy is a complete failure to comprehend a simple meaning of a word. It is completely worthless and cannot possibly do any good. Any author or English professor would know this. And yes I am an aspiring author. So I know. Nonessential information is preferably left out the main body of any professional work. Just watch the bonus features of any DVD and you'll see that instantly. One little miscellaneous fact makes little difference, but many is another story. That information must be recorded somehow. Otherwise it is lost. We are an encyclopedia. Encyclopedias are supposed to include a lot of information. Many book authors who author a large series of books often choose to create an encyclopedia of information after they finish the series. Many of these are basically trivia. We need to shake off old hates. Trivia sections used be looked down upon. But nowadays people really like them. Personally I like the trivia sections most of all in most articles that have them. So you know my opinion now. This policy is pointless and this article should be deleted.Mjr162006 (talk) 03:19, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The title has been discussed a few times. I believe it was once suggested that it be moved to "Miscellaneous facts" or something like that. That might have just been the wording on the template (which doesn't say "Trivia" at the moment). The title refers to how the vast majority of these miscellaneous facts are under the section name of Trivia. Bill ^{(talk|contribs)} 12:29, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's jargon. This policy does not concern trivia, per se. That's just what people call it. Dcoetzee 01:15, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A rose under a different name would smell just as sweet. The fundamental problem is that trivia is not integrated into the article in a meaningful and consistent way.I do not see how changing the name of this guideline will help improve that situation.

I should add, that since I've started watching the trivia issue (September 10, 2007), the total number of Articles with trivia sections has decreased by about 5,500 (now down from 14,000 to 8,500), or roughly 40%. Thats a 40% redution in just over a year. That's a monumental improvement, even if only half that content was integrated into the article in a more meaningful way. --Nick Penguin_(contribs) 16:27, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(undent) The fundamental problem is not precisely that trivia is not integrated into the text... a great deal of trivia is trivial because it is irrelevant and immaterial, and as such should be deleted from the article. Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 17:46, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is it just me?

Or does anyone else find themselves looking at the previous editions of pages with trivia on them more than the actual current ones? Kinda funny. Oh well, at least we have cluttered paragraphs. Danno2530 05:12, 29 October 2008

Agreed...I find myself looking back to old versions to see if there are any trivia sections I missed. Bearon (talk) 05:27, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep trivia sections!

They are usually the most interesting part of any page! 60.234.240.43 (talk) 06:35, 2 January 2009 (UTC)Geoff[reply]

Why are lists treated differently?

It seems to me that the format of data presentation should be mostly irrelevant to wikipedia, and that effectivness and quality should be the relevant factors. Why, in this case, does this disfavor lists? It seems that the same data and presentation, sans list differences, are acceptable in tables, and yet the distinction appears to exist and be observed quite widely.

Can anyone cast some light on this? I'd also lie to register my disapointment that this section even exists as it seems to be terribly abused and an excuse for people to tag and delete useful information- sometimes in violation of this authority and sometimes not. It seems notable information should be included in this work and their should be no reason or motivation to increase the verbosity unnecessarily or relegate the information to table form to keep it in compliance with this section.

Do I misunderstand? Am I correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.29.234.88 (talk) 07:59, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You are correct that lists are deprecated and abused by people who simply don't like lists, and will kill them in any way they can, as being somehow smarmy ways to insert trivia into WP. However, this is not really WP official policy, which includes guidelines for both stand-alone lists and embodied lists within articles: see WP:LIST. Lists are good, and there's nothing wrong with them. Like tables, they are often a most appropriate way to present information. Also, see the interested stuff at WP:CLN noting that lists and categories compliment each other, but in many ways the two types of proposed makings and deletions are handled quite differently. But shouldn't be. In short, it's a real problem. S B H arris 09:15, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the original poster. Trivia lists are usually just fine. Tempshill (talk) 21:48, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]