Talk:Marcus Junius Brutus

No longer senator?

The bit about being offered a compromise etc - this seems to me to be right out of the TV show Rome - also there is no citation for the statement. I always thought the assassins held up under siege somewhere in the city?? Can anyone with any knowledge speak to this???JP (talk) 14:17, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

After the assassination, Brutus reportedly gave a measured speech on the Capitol that was well received, but another Senator by the name of Cinna gave a blustering anti-Caesar speech that was ill received and riled up the mob. At that point the conspirators retreated inside the Capitol and held themselves up there. The next day the Senate, including Anthony met in some Temple and voted for amnesty and honors for all the conspirators. Antony sent his son to the Capitol as a hostage and the conspirators then came out and everybody was reconciled, for the moment at least. As currently written, it stinks of the script from Rome HBO.Bogan444 (talk) 06:00, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

The sentences: After the assassination, Brutus was approached with a compromise; if Caesar was declared a tyrant, then all of Caesars' appointments to the Senate were null and void. This meant that Brutus would no longer be a Senator and elections would have to be held.

Was Brutus not a Senator before Ceasars term as dictator? In which case surely it should read 'This meant that Brutus would no longer be Praetor,' as opposed to 'no longer be a Senator' ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.254.120.136 (talk) 11:42, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

The above contributor is correct. Brutus was a senator before the assassination, so nullification of Caesar's acta would not have meant that Brutus would no longer have been a senator if Caesar was declared a tyrant. However, Brutus urban praetorship would have been invalid. I have edited to entry to reflect this. 82.44.82.167 (talk) 19:29, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

comic history of rome?

Who's going around adding images from the comic history of rome? It seems wildly inappropriate. I wouldn't put a picture of Snoopy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Snoopy_wwi_ace_lb.jpg) in an article about the Red Baron.

"Brutal" from Brutus

Doesn't Brutal come from Brutus, as he was brutal to Caesar? --Shultz 06:15, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. 'Brutal' comes from the word 'brutus', certainly, but 'brutus' is Latin for 'coarse'. It was given to the first Brutus as a nickname because he pretended to be stupid in order to survive in the court of Tarquin.

I have heard that Brutal comes from Brutus a lot, however. Should it not at least be mentioned as a common misconception?

How is 'Caepio' prounounced?

"Kai pee o" is probably closest to the original Roman pronunciation.

Or "Kai pyo" in a Russian sense. Poetry seems to support the previous statement, but it should also be of note that spoken Latin and written Latin are indeed different, though no one knows how big the differences was (a lot or a little) and spoken suggests at certain points 'Caepjo'. For instance, a word so common place as "talk" comes from Greek and doesn't show up until after the fall of the Roman Empire (Parabolare)-whereas the Latin written word for this is Loquor. The point is, the written word isn't quite the spoken, as Loquor is seldom used (I don't think it is used) in Italy, Spain or France, and I'm pretty sure just about any Roman area showing the word was probably parabloare.J. M. 09:16, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

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I'm a little concerned about Bobby Milligan, who may be making specious additions to the database. User created article Romulus_Junius_Brutus_Caepio_de_Montford, which has come up for VfD, and Luke Bright, which has been nominated for nonsense deletion. I'm concerned that user may also be represented by IP address 195.172.150.2, which has also been making connections and creating articles (such as Tiberius_Junius_Brutus), and seems to have vandalised Junius_Brutus_Booth in [this] edit. Please be aware, and check carefully any additions. Best regards, EvilPhoenix

"Shakespeare has Marc Antony describe Brutus as "the noblest Roman of them all" in the final scene of Julius Caesar." - this per se is not quite correct and might need some clarification. Marc Antony does indeed call Brutus "the noblest Roman of them all" but he does repeat it a couple of times during his speech. The further along in the speech, the more "the noblest Roman of them all" turns into an insult.

You're thinking of the "honourable man" speech from Act 3 Scene 2. In the very last scene of the play Antony says "This was the noblest Roman of them all: / All the conspirators, save only he, / Did that they did in envy of great Caesar; / He only, in a general-honest thought / And common good to all, made one of them."

This is not appropriate for a biographical article. Shakespeare is not a source, and I've seen no evidence Antony ever said anything positive about Caesar. Romanticized history is not accurate history J. M. 09:16, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

What, it's inappropriate under the subject heading "Later evaluations of Brutus"!? I understand you're worried about inaccuracy, but it's totally clear that historical accuracy isn't being claimed. As a summary of the overriding cultural perception of Brutus it's totally valid, and the article would be poorer without it.

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What was wrong with "it is more likely that they were in Greek, chiefly spoken by Roman officials: "Kai su, teknon?" ("You too, my son?")" - something that was added by me but then removed later? -- Andrevan

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Where does the "Tu quoque, Brute, fili mi" quoted in the article come from? I'm only familiar with the form given by Suetonius, which is in Greek and doesn't mention Brutus by name (και συ, τεκνον). --Zundark, 2002 Feb 20

Personally I don't know where it comes from, though it is traditionally and proverbially reported in this form or in the alternative form Et tu, Brute, fili mi (obviously of same meaning - also in brief form Et tu, Brute). Unfortunately, in none of the texts I have read now there is a mention of source - I miss Svetonius, though.

I could not generically exclude the possibility that the greek form would perhaps be a bit unfaithful since:

• • most likely it is a legend, or a spectacular rendering of the murder chronicle, reported by romans from Rome,presumedly meant to be read by other romans; why a passage to greek? cui prodest?
  • even if it wasn't a legend J.C. said something, I wonder what a great intellectual J.C. should have been: his (roman) son was now stabbing him in (roman) senate and he just found an appropriate _greek_ quote to celebrate the event...

Svetonius is obviously a capital resource for studying Roman age, but some doubts might be justified; we shouldn't forget that in Middle Age all the latin production (as well as greek one) passed through copysts.

However, don't know source but can say that I have heard it or read it litterally thousands of times, but only in the two said latin forms (80% the form in the article); I also happened to see it is known in the same way abroad too (i.e. in England and in Germany).

Well, the Roman senatorial class was relentlessly bilingual and Graecified. It wouldn't surprise me that Julius Caesar spoke in Greek in such a situation at all. Suetonius's only advantage, however, is being a cited source. He is much, much later, after all. I've heard the Latin, too, but that means little, since we're talking about "famous last words". What I want to know is the 'adopted son' bit. Octavius is adopted in the will. Brutus was a protege (sorta), but adoption was a serious legal proceding which I do not think applies to this situation. MichaelTinkler

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Just a note: eventually this page will have to be moved to a disambiguation link. The reasons are simple: not only do we have two historical Brutuses -- M. Junius & L. Junius -- but also Geoffrey of Monmouth's Brutus, the founder of the British race, & Popeye's antagonist. I'm more concerned about the British Brutus, though, & at the moment am pondering the best article title for him. -- llywrch 17:19 Dec 31, 2002 (UTC)

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The Latin quote 'Romanorum populus , nos es quondam iterum solvo!' is total bunk. It is obviously derived from the English 'translation', but it makes absolutely no sense in Latin (the Latin would mean something like "people of the romans, you are us formerly; again I free!"). I'm not sure where the English quotation comes from, or if there is any actual Latin behind it, but this isn't it. Mraig 04:39, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

The age comment

I think the fact of Julius Caesar being 15 when Brutus was born is a poor argument against the fact that Caesar might have been Brutus' father. If you want to imply that the affair may have started when Julius Caesar was age twenty five, ten years after Brutus was born, that is fine because it deals in chronological terms. To say 'because Caesar was fifteen years old' implies that Caesar and Servilia would not have had sexual interaction when he was that age, which is not a valid argument. Most historians agree that sexual interaction began during the early teen years since by that time you were considered an adult.

~WoodrowS

Perhaps not but the fact that Caesar's affair didn't start with Servilia until he was 10 is proof enough. NeoRicen 06:49, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree it's unlikely, but there is not prood enough in these matters sadly. We can't assume anything other then to say it's unlikely. --82.34.129.135 20:11, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

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How was his father killed due to Sulla's proscriptions in 77 BC when Sulla died in 78BC?

Pompey was the one who killed Iunius Brutus, not Sulla. I think his death may have just been an aftermath of what happened during the rein of Sulla. --82.34.129.62 15:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Brutus and the people

Does Brutus loose the trust and loyalty of the Roman people after he kills Caesar? I am confused on this because he dies as an "honorable man," however it seems as though the people dislike him after he assasins Caesar

• Caesar was a dictator, he is romanticized now, but certainly not everyone felt comfortable under the hand of the "kind tyrant" caesar. --66.158.232.98 (talk) 20:58, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Name of Brutus' father

Can someone please check naming convention for Brutus' branch of the Junii? Brutus was an only son, and somehow, it seems a bit contradictory for his father to have had the praenomen Decimus, and for Brutus to be named Marcus.

We don't know enough about Brutus' parents to say he was their only son, he may have had brothers. I've read several times that Brutus' legal father was Decimus Junius Brutus, but others say Marcus Junius Brutus. I just assume we don't know for sure. --82.34.129.75 15:29, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

We don't know if Marcus Junius Brutus was his father's first legitimate child. We aren't even sure if Servilia was his first wife. Given the enormously high maternal and neonatal death rates at the time, we can't make any assumptions either. --Charlene 07:32, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Family tree template SCREWED UP!

The {{{Brutus family tree}}} template is messing up the Article towards the bottom. I don't know how to fix it. Maybe someone else can? -BiancaOfHell 06:14, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

From the looks of things, I've found that the tree part of the family tree seems to want to be at the bottom of the page cause when I previewed Porcia Catonis after putting the tree at the bottom, the tree wasn't screwed up. --82.34.129.135 23:16, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Missing sections?

I read through this article and was startled to see that it ends abruptly with the assassination of Caesar. Older versions of the page discuss Brutus' fate, but at some point this was removed. What happened?? Venicemenace 18:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

adding content

This page is incomplete, over the next few days I will be adding some content. Please do not just delete the new content, as it will take a few days for all of it to be added.

21kev 19:58, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

TV series

How much of the "Aftermath" series is due to the TV series Rome, and how much of it is due to historical research? Since the episodes dealing with the aftermath of Caesar's assassination have aired, the Aftermath section has been completely rewritten and now very closely follows the plot of the TV series. Like any good entertainment product, the writers took dramatic license with history, and it concerns me that this article appears to use the script as a primary source. It would be nice if someone could review the section for historical accuracy. Orpheus 14:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I added three external links to back up what I posted. I am now looking for a link to verify the letter from Cicero to Brutus. If I can not find proof, then I will delete that part. Is this the kind of information you were wanting? Should the links go in the internal link section? The "aftermath" section did not exist until last week. This section ended with the assassination of Julius Caesar, it was if Brutus disappeared from history. This was not the case, so I added more information. 21kev 16:22, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

That's great - more information is wonderful. If you provide references then there's absolutely no problem. Rather than just putting links though, you should use the ref tag (see WP:REF for more information). I was just a bit concerned that the section seemed to mirror the script almost exactly, but if the script mirrors reality then that's ok. Orpheus 09:10, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Meaning of a sentence

This sentence: "However, Brutus was pressured into joining the conspiracy against Caesar by the other senators [10] and he also discovered messages written on the busts of his ancestors[11]" has me confused. exactly what is meant by the latter half? In what context do these messages have a relevance on Brutus decision to join the assasins? Hopefully somebody in the know could clear this up, or maybe remove the last part of the sentence if it makes as little sense as it does to me. Abel29a 07:45, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I imagine the sentence is referring to Plutarch, who reported that people had written on the Statue of Brutus' King killing ancestor things like "O that we had Brutus now!" and "Brutus, art thou asleep?". I'd say the whole sentence is poorly written, but the latter part of it is actually better referenced than the first part, which seems to advance the "reluctant assassin" Brutus of drama and film without any real evidence.Bogan444 (talk) 05:49, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Artwork over bust

I think this image looks unprofessional and detracts from the article. It appears to be just some guy's photoshop cut-and-paste job. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.101.143.89 (talk) 20:33, 25 April 2007 (UTC).

Et tu brute citation?

concerning the sentence However, there is a strong possibility that his last words were said in Greek as opposed to Latin, which shows the influence of Greece on Roman aristocrats, in the brutus in popular culture section, can we get a citation/reference on that, as the last part sounds kinda like an opinion?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Birdman5783 (talk • contribs) 01:53, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Ashes

What happened to Brutus' ashes eventually? Did they get passed down through the family and still exist somewhere, or did they disappear from history? --70.128.122.92 21:47, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

They probably remained in the family until the sack of Rome where nearly all such things were destroyed. --82.34.129.154 (talk) 21:17, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Inventor of the omelette

This kinda stuff really needs to be referenced. I've removed it until a reputable citation can be provided. 82.44.82.167 (talk) 19:13, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Brutus' Death

I noticed that the 25th citation is not historical, but rather referring to the death of the fictionalized Brutus in Shakespeare's "Julius Caesar." Hopefully a more regular contributor has a better historical source for this on hand, but if not, I would be willing to see if I can find a better one (if extant) for information on his death. Thanks.

Kjt921 (talk) 03:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I've slightly rejigged the account of Brutus' death to follow Plutarch's version. The references have also been changed to reflect this. 82.44.82.167 (talk) 10:16, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Portrait

The portrait of the bust which claims to be of M. J. Brutus is not his. I think it should be replaced. I can't do it myself at this time as I don't have a picture taken by myself of the proper bust.Wehemesut (talk) 08:09, 20 January 2009 (UTC)