Talk:Ruger Mini-14

Any reason why the image was removed? 141.157.200.16 23:36, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I beleive because it (or rather they) had no licensing information. If you uploaded one of them originally, upload it again and tag it appropriately on the image description page, and then it can be used in the article. scot 12:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

XGI

Can anyone provide photos for the XGI?

That's going to be really hard to come by--there were very few ever made, and while I've seen some rare Rugers (such as the Hawkeye pistol) I've never seen an XGI. There is a photo here: http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2800/2899.htm but it would have to be used under a fair use license. I'm not sure if the patent dispute is real, the Mini uses a reversed M-14 setup, with the piston fixed and the cylinder on the op rod--also, being military, anyone should be able to make an M-14, just like anyone can make an M-16, it's sort of "open source". The stories I've heard, from reputable sources, was that the XGI suffered from the same accuracy problems as the Mini, and what was acceptable in a carbine was not acceptable in a .308 rifle. scot 16:43, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the interesting link & info. Is the info in that link regarding the Mini-30 accurate? It's the first I have heard of it.

I don't know; the fact that I don't see any mention of that anywhere else makes me really suspect it. It would be possible to fit an AK magazine to the Mini-30, but it would require a completely different magazine well, so definitely a new stock and liner, plus significant changes to the receiver and magazine release. And even after all that, I'll bet he Mini's last-shot hold open wouldn't work right, as that uses a projection on the rear of the follower, if memory serves me right (I haven't shot my Mini in quite some time). scot 20:34, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I think that XGI pic is fair game, as it is just a scan from the old Ruger ads.

Ruger is currently auctioning off a non-fireing XGI rifle.the page can be found here.If one of the photo's were to be used it would have to be in fair use as it is the clearest photo availible.Paulwharton 02:26, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Kel-Tec

Can anyone explain why there is a paragraph on the Kel-Tec SU-16 in the middle of the History section of the article? This seems highly inappropriate. A mention of the SU-16 is one thing, this seems to be someone attempting to advertise.Elwood64151 13:59, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Removed.

Accuracy

I am disputing the statment that the accuracy of this rifle against the AR-15 to be inferior. Although I agree with the general statement that the mini-14 is less accurate than bolt action rifles it has been my experience that the mini-14 is as accurate if not more so than its competitor the AR-15. I have been in numerous shooting matches where I have shot against AR-15's with a Mini-14 and have found them to be comparable. Shooting skill along with comfortablility and accustomisation of a weapon are large factors in obtaining skill and accuracy. I don't think there is anything inherently superior from either rifle to give it an accuracy advantage over the other. This statment seems to consistant in various circles as this dabate has gone on for years. I propose we strike the statement from the article in the interest of POV. FrankWilliams 17:55, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, the AR-15 direct impingement gas system allows it to be made into a phenomenally accurate rifle--to the point that the AR-15 is winning 1000 yard service matches against the M-14 series (with the 1 in 7 twist and the heavy, ultra-low drag bullets), and can compete head to head with any comparable bolt action rifle. The Mini-14 does suffer from a couple of demonstrable flaws that can impact accuracy:

• The fast-turned barrel means that the gas block often doesn't fit evenly, putting uneven pressure on the barrel
• The light, thin barrel is "whippy", and is extra sensitive to changes in pressure
• The under-barrel gas system makes it hard to float the barrel to any significant degree

This is not to say that it's any less accurate under normal circumstances than the typical lever or compact bolt action rifle; it's just that 1 & 2 combined to allow barrrel heating to change the POI, and 2 & 3 combined make it hard to accurize the gun. A Clark Custom version, with the heavy barrel, probably will shoot neck and neck with all but the top of the line match AR-15s, but at that point you've lost the price advantage.

As for the sentence in question, how about we change it to "not as accurate as a match grade AR-15"? That I think can be backed up with actual results. scot 18:24, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Accuracy

The Mini-14 is generally considered an inaccurate rifle. Out of the box accuracy is typically 4 or 5 MOA (100yrds). The AR-15 and SKS are more accurate rifles than a Mini-14. This page needs an expert to review and make necessary changes.

There are a number of problems with this idea. The first problem is finding authoritative sources for accuracy information. I've seen reports that Ruger's accuracy standard for the Mini is 2" at 50 yards, but is there a source of information for AK and AR-15 rifles' minimum accuracy standards? "Generally considered" is not sufficient, or is single sample testing.

Also, "inaccurate" is a very relative term--for a 150 yard deer cartridge, 4 MOA is sufficient; for a 400 yard prarie dog rifle, even 1 MOA isn't good enough. Keep in mind that you are comparing a 6 lb. 6 oz. rifle against much heavier guns; the earliest AR-15 is slightly lighter, but it had accuracy problems of it's own, also associated with the thin barrel. Later AR-15s, the SKS and AK-47 all weigh in at over 8 lbs. Compare their accuracy to a Mini-14 with with a heavy barrel and an overall weight of 8 lbs (http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/m14hbar.htm) and you get 1.5 MOA or better. What you can say is that the Mini-14 is designed to be light and handy, but was not intended for, and is not suitable for, high precision shooting.

Since you're comparing the Mini-14 to modern military rifles, you also have to consider just how important accuracy really is in a general issue infantry weapon. From a report on the Joint Service Combat Shotgun Program:

British examination of its Malaya experience determined that, to a range of thirty yards (27.4 meters), the probability of hitting a man-sized target with a shotgun was superior to that of all other weapons. The probability of hitting the intended target with an assault rifle was one in eleven. It was one in eight with a submachine gun firing a five-round burst. Shotguns had a hit probability ratio twice as good as rifles. A 1952 British study by the Commander of British Security Forces, compiled from combat action reports, tests, and other studies (including medical), reconfirmed the previous finding that the shotgun was a highly-effective combat weapon at ranges out to seventy-five yards (68.6 meters).

So one of the least accurate guns, a submachine gun firing a burst, is more effective in actual use than an assault rifle, and a pump 12 guage trumps them both. Granted this is only at short range, but that's more often than not where the most intense fighting is these days.

So to sum up, I think what can be neutrally said is that the Mini-14 is adequate for use against large varmints (such as coyotes), deer at short ranges (preferrably with the -30, the .223 is marginal in terminal performance), personal defense, and of course the dominant use of plinking; it is not accurate enough to be a long range varmint rifle or a precision target rifle.

Some references:

• http://www.chuckhawks.com/practical_accuracy.htm
• http://www.chuckhawks.com/ruger_mini-30.htm

scot 20:08, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Re: Accuracy of the Mini-14:

It is generally recognized that "out of the box" most (not all) Mini-14's have a slightly larger grouping as compared with an "out of the box" AR-15. In this regard, the AR-15 is consistantly a little more accurate. The main issue concerning accuracy of the Mini-14 is it's stock barrel. There are aftermarket companies that produce supperior barrels for this rifle than the factory barrel, and the Mini-14 can be made to be more accurate than an out-of-the-box AR-15.

The Mini-14 has kept a substantial following due mainly to the robustness of it's design. Unlike the AR format, the gas system doesn't blow directly into the chamber, thus fouling the bolt, chamber, carrier and other fire control parts. Also, the Mini-14 can function in a dirtier environment than the AR rifles, more like an AK-47. The receiver is CNC milled out of hardened steel, whereas the two part receivers of the AR are made of about 75% aluminum, with fire control parts, made of steel. The stainless steel version of the Mini-14 are excelent for marine applications, where concerns about corrosion are a factor.

The reason that the AR-15 is more popular among civilians is 1) because this is the format widely used by the US Military; and 2) the avialability of spare parts and accessories. Whereas the Mini-14 must be serviced by Ruger and spare parts are only avaialable directly from the factory, a civilian can build an AR rifle with all of the componants that are readily available after purchasing the lower receiver which is designated the "firearm" by BATFE. This can be compared to the success of the VHS over the Beta video recording formats; as well as IBM PC's over the Apple PC's. Ease of maintenance and availability again trump what some may consider superior design.

A small manufacturer is making close quarters battle stocks for the Mini-14 that allow it to accept many of the componants and accesories available for the AR15. Although still too costly for most civilian Mini-14 owners, it does have the capability of allowing the Mini-14 "plinking" rifle to regain more serious stature among law enforcement for use as special QCB tool.

I own both rifles, mini-14 and AR-15. The mini-14 is a very accurate rifle if you do your homework on the guns rifle twist and select the proper bullet for that given twist. The very fact that the rifle is based off the M-14 which is still in use as a sniper rifle should be proof of this. I know that the accuracy issues are manly from the pre-03 rifles because the rifling twist rate varied depending on the year it was made. For some years had 10:1 rate then switch to 7:1 rates and now with the new versions 9:1 rates. That is the problem. My mini has a twist rate of 10:1 and is as of 2009 is 25 years old. I was using the 55 gr M193 round giving me 4 to 5 in groups. I did my homework on the bullet spec to twist rate relationship and found out that a 62 gr lead core bullet match the 10:1 twist rate the closest. I tested this and found that my groups went from basically 4-5 in groups to 1-2 in groups. The fact that the 223 rem was designed for the AR-15 means that most of the 223 rounds you can buy were ment for common twist rate of the AR-15, 11:1 and 9:1. Accuracy of the Mini-14 suffers the most from this because most of your bullets weren't ment for the Mini-14's odd twist rates. The best thing ruger did for the Mini-14 was change the twist rate to 9:1 in all the post-03 rifles giving the Mini-14 out of the box accuracty. As for parts: true the mini suffers greatly, but just look at my rifle 25 years old (heavily used) and shooting 1-2 in groups. The argument over Mini-14 vs AR-15 is very interseting, but maybe there should be a gun that takes the designe advantages of both rifles and incorpurates that into its design. The AR-15 has its flaws too in regards to accuracy. During feeding the bullet is scared which will have a huge affect on accuracy which is my only complaint about the rifle. In the Mini-14 the bullet is virtualy untouched during feeding. Ruger did a very good job on designing the feeding cycle of the mini-14, stoner not so much on the AR-15. You have your pro and cons with both guns. The mags of the mini are harder to load compared to the AR. It will take lots of practice to be as fast on loading the mini as it is for the AR, however the AR mag cause lots of jams in the AR system. but that was just some interesting tid bids that have nothing to do with accuracy. the thing is you get an AR that costs as little as a mini and they will be shooting very equally; you get a mini that costs as much as an AR and they will shoot equally. a statement like this requires a person who is famillar with both rifles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gulielmi2002 (talk • contribs) 18:42, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

This is not a forum. Please read this: WP:FORUM --Nukes4Tots (talk) 20:03, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism

Reverted the large scale deletion without discussion. Discussion is usually required before deleting entire sections, otherwise it is considered vandalism. Yaf 01:12, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Funny, I actually agree with the section on Bill Ruger and the Mag Capacity being left out of the Mini-14 article en masse, however a mention might be made and directed at the main article. Reverting the Ruby Ridge mention, however, defies logic.--Asams10 01:16, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

At least this is being discussed, unlike the wholesale deletion that seems to be the current method of "folks" that get TW installed for the first time and start removing "trivia" from every article in sight, by their definition of trivia, with no hint of building or following consensus :-) Getting back to the Bill Ruger and mag capacity section; a mention with a link to the main article would be fine for this. As for the mention of the Robert Hanson human hunter, I didn't see where this was especially notable, and deleted it a couple of days ago. However, the other criminal acts that are listed do appear notable, and should probably stay in the article. They are not trivia. Yaf 01:24, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed on all points.--Asams10 01:48, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, there is no place in the encyclopedia for this sort of trivia. The controversy section is nongermane to this article and better covered at Sturm, Ruger. The 2 mentions of criminal use are, again, trivial. Neither use generated legislation or affected sales of this rifle or had an impact on the Mini-14 in any way. The "users" section is, as evidenced by the rest of the section, devoted to institutional users of this model rifle, not individual uses of single Mini-14's. Whether or not a crime is notable has no bearing on its context when applied to other articles. I've been cleaning the Wiki of trivia since long before Twinkle was written, and as far as consensus, you 2 are the only people complaining about the trivia removal. If it bothers you so much, please join me at the Firearms project talk page, where we are formulating criteria for inclusion for this sort of trivia. Your input will be welcome. Also, I would direct your attention to WP:Vandal, good faith edits are NEVER to be characterized as vandalism and editors have been blocked for calling describing them as such in edit summaries. K1ng l0v3 01:49, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Yaf, myself, and about half a dozen have already gone over this and the concensus was reached without you. Your methods are to revert wholesale and leave a tiny comment saying why. Okay, if nobody disagrees, but when somebody disagrees, you fight with them instead of discussing it. This tyranical reversion history of yours does not help you get your point across when you FINALLY join the discussion. It seems that the VT shooting has sparked alot of "Johnny Come Lately's" like yourself who now want to bully their opinion on others. You remove half an article without discussing it? Might have been the right thing to do, but let somebody discuss it first. --Asams10 01:54, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

"Neither use generated legislation or affected sales of this rifle or had an impact on the Mini-14 in any way." That is incorrect. Please bear in mind that Wikipedia is not an US encyclopedia, it's it's a worldwide encyclopedia. The École Polytechnique massacre had no impact in the United States, but it clearly had a profound impact on Canadian gun control laws. — Red XIV ^(talk) 15:21, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a decent source that supports this? If so, then it certainly meets the criteria for inclusion and should go back in. Even something like a statement from an official of the Canadian firearms owner organization (their equivalent to the NRA, the name has slipped my mind) would be good enough for me. scot 20:53, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

National Firearms Association is the group. A quick search for "ruger" or "mini-14" on their site comes up empty. Canadian laws can be research on their Just Laws Web Site. Arthurrh 21:20, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Follow my link to the very well-sourced École Polytechnique massacre article and read up for yourself about its impact on gun control in Canada. — Red XIV ^(talk) 15:08, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Removed half an article? What are you talking about? I'm sorry if you like trivia but it does not belong in an encyclopedia. K1ng l0v3 01:56, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Have put in a link to the Sturm, Ruger article in the controversy section, and trimmed the controversy section. Since this is a controversy that largely arose from the Mini-14, though, there is a good reason to put a mention of it in this article. However, since it spread well beyond the Mini-14, it should probably be in the Sturm, Ruger article, at least for the bulk of the controversy content. As for liking "trivia", that is not the point at all. I personally don't like trivia, as I think is probably obvious from my contributions to the Walther P22, Glock 19, Dawson College shooting, Virginia Tech massacre, and a myriad of other firearm-related articles in which I have participated in building consensus, and discussing whether or not we should insert crime details in firearm articles. Notability is the primary consideration that should be the basis for determining whether or not to include mentions of crimes into firearm articles. It is simply that what K1ng l0v3 thinks is trivia, or what any one editor (myself included) thinks is trivia, is not really the proper approach. Instead, we should discuss the content among editors on the talk page, reach a consensus, and proceed, instead of the edit warring, which TW seems to make so easy, and which has seemingly been the new standard since Cho cut loose at Va Tech. Trivia does not belong in an encyclopedia, of course, but notable criminal acts with a firearm, from which a change in gun laws occurred, and which had widespread notability, are not trivia, but are very valid points to include in a firearms article. (Incidentally, I am not proposing that the Palm Bay, FL shooting of 1987, in which 6 were killed, and 14 were injured with a Mini-14, should be included in this article, as this spree killing did not result in any changes in gun laws, other than possibly confirming that newly-introduced CCW laws in Florida were a "good thing". -- A civilian with a gun in the parking lot of the grocery kept the shooter pinned down, allowing a large number of customers to escape through the rear door of the grocery, after two police had been shot (they died), thereby keeping the shooter from entering the grocery until it was nearly empty, and saving many lives. But, this spree killing is not notable relative to the Mini-14.) Yaf 05:19, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

1986 FBI Miami shootout

The FBI decided to switch calibers after the 1986 shootout because it felt it was outgunned. Every single source I've linked has supported that, our own articles support that, every person who knows anything about it would support that if you asked. Why don't you stop removing sources that support the content and find some that meet your own standards? Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 14:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Ruger AC556F

• AGAINST MERGE- Someone wants to Merge this article with the Mini-14 article. I oppose this merge as while the AC-556 is based on the Mini-14 they are mechanically different enough to have a limited number of parts in common. I would much rather the article be re-written. Paulwharton 19:01, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

The only differnces i spoted were in the length of the reciver and other very trivial things such as flash supperser or fully automatic which is very common thing not to have in US.(ForeverDEAD 22:28, 20 August 2007 (UTC))

• FOR - I think it should be merged and listed as a variant. Arthurrh 22:31, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
• FOR - Definitely the same weapon. The fire control group is different, yes, but it is quite obviously a variant and a more minor variant than the '180 series' Mini-14 is a 'variant' of the '181 series' Mini-14, yet both of those are listed in this article as is the newest variant and the ranch rifle. Do we really need five different articles? How about a separate article for each stock variation too? That folding stock model has more mechanical differences than any other variants. To keep them separate is ABSURD.--Asams10 03:57, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
• FOR-Just not enough differnces to warrant a seperate artical.(ForeverDEAD 19:28, 21 August 2007 (UTC))
• For - it's just a variant. Arthur 05:00, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
• For - another variant. Should be merged. Yaf 05:51, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and merged it. From April to November there were 6 comments, 5 for and 1 against. --Asams10 12:18, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

New image

Today I uploaded an image of the Mini-14 to replace the partial image in the infobox, but suddenly I find myself wondering if there is too much background in it, such as the packages with a brand name on the. I could crop the image and upload it in the place of the current one, but would rather not if it isn't necessary. Does anyone think this is necessary?--LWF 23:40, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I think cropping would help - it's pretty busy. Arthurrh 05:21, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Technical data

Is there really any need for this section since we have an infobox? Maybe the section just for the magazines should stay (or be added to the infobox), but I can't see any point of having the other information twice. While there is some information in it that is not in the infobox, I'm sure it can be added. Hayden120 02:28, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Discussion below was merged from AC-556 article

This article needs some serious help

Someone knowledgeable about this weapon, and of course has reliable sources, needs to severely overhaul this article. The way it stands right now, it's primarily about the Ruger Mini 14. It mentions the AC556F once, and only to say that it's a variant of the Mini 14. Parsecboy 23:26, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I am going to try and re-write the article to be centered on the weapon in question. the two firearms while apearing Identicle are mechanically different firearms. Paulwharton 18:48, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

The article was clearly a direct copy of this article, so I deleted the copyvio text and created a basic stub. If I get some time I'll try to enlarge it some more, but I ask that anyone with more knowledge on the weapon help as well. Thanks. Parsecboy 12:46, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do when I have some time later today. Hogg's book does have some information on this one.--LWF 12:53, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Naming Conventions

5.56x45mm NATO is a provably incorrect name for the cartridge. Its NATO designation, per STANAG, is 5.56mm NATO. The Wiki naming guidelines clearly state that they are not to be applied inflexibly. That apparently means little to those who worship form over substance. Emerson was right: A foolish consistency is indeed the hobgoblin of little minds.--Ana Nim (talk) 22:18, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, 5.56x45mm is perfectly correct here, while the STANAG designation isn't. The Ruger manual specifically says The Mini-14 Ranch Rifle is designed to use either standardized U.S. military, or factory loaded sporting .223 (5.56mm) cartridges manufactured in accordance with U.S. industry practice, which covers additional rounds (such as the M193) and reguarding STANAG rounds, technically only covers that which is designated M855. Some models of the Ruger Mini-14 will also chamber the 5.56x43mm, so a length designation is certainly helpful. scot (talk) 22:46, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your comment: 5.56X45mm is perfectly correct in this context. My point is that "5.56x45mm NATO" is a bogus term imposed on the readership by a couple of contributors who are slavishly following a naming convention. Use one or the other, as appropriate, but you can't combine them and be technically accurate.--Ana Nim (talk) 17:11, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Variant Name is Technically Incorrect

The 7.62mm version of the Mini-14 is the Mini Thirty, not the Mini-30, with the number spelled out. Easy fix. 202.165.204.253 (talk) 07:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC) Mac

"Technical Note"

• The following edit was moved from the article due to lack of formatting, editors are invited to format and re-insert this if it has merit. I have no opinion. Regards, Chuckiesdad (talk) 06:18, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

NOTE: US .30 cal (7.62) is 0.308" diameter, euopian 7.62mm ( AKA 30 cal) is .312" diameter (inches) ,

There is express DANGER in shooting .312 ammo in a Ruger that is chambered for the US .308 cal. breach pressures can reach explosive levels and kill you. Be sure of the ammo your shoting. Russian and most other NON-US ammo is .312". As far as I know no ruger mini-30's were chambered for this .312 ammo.

This is incorrect. The Ruger Mini-Thirty is designed to handle the Russian 7.62x39mm ammunition. Said ammunition has a nminal bullet diameter of .311" to .312". The Bore of the Ruger was actually designed to stabilize .308" bullets as well, though not as accurately as a dedicated US .30 caliber barrel. --Winged Brick (talk) 13:26, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Crap about the .223 and 5.56x45mm not being interchangeable.

The Ruger Mini-14 manual states: "The RUGER® MINI-14® RANCH RIFLES are chambered for the .223 Remington (5.56mm) cartridge. The Mini-14 Ranch Rifle is designed to use either standardized U.S. military, or factory loaded sporting .223 (5.56mm) cartridges manufactured in accordance with U.S. industry practice." --Nukes4Tots (talk) 19:29, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

AC-556 Manual Link

The external link to the AC-556 manual appears to be broken. I'm sure there is another location on the web that could be found with a little searching though. Just a heads up. 66.191.19.68 (talk) 16:20, 19 February 2009 (UTC)