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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 65.33.138.221 (talk) at 16:08, 26 April 2009. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Carson and Languages

The reference for this is www.coloradohistory.org. Permission obtained. Richiar 05:13, 15 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Further documentation: permission obtained a second time from Mary Ann McNair, Coordinator of Education, Colorado Historical Society, on this date, at 2pm, per phone conversation. ph: (303) 866-3682. If you need further clarification, call her. Richiar 22:04, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • See "A Truly Decent Chap" [1]

Richiar (talk) 05:06, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Article is taken over by Cazedessus

As of Jan 1st 2007, this is article is just an opinion by the user names above. FALSE, I have the facts Cazedessus (talk) 19:21, 9 February 2009 (UTC) I do not have the time to fight him. Your problem, not mine Cazedessus (talk) 19:21, 9 February 2009 (UTC) Kit Carson's image does not accurately the misery he brought to the Navajo. A twisted falsehood that ignores the MISERY the Navajo brought to the citiznes of the Territory of New Mexico, including several other Indian tribes. Cazedessus (talk) 19:21, 9 February 2009 (UTC) Cazedessus WILL delete anything bad about him. No, only anything that is falseCazedessus (talk) 19:21, 9 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

false, I only delete lies and distortions. And so what, some lunatic at Wiki simply deletes my corrections and the lies and distortions are reposted. Cazedessus (talk) 19:11, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
if this is true...grow up Caze.--Count Mall 23:25, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

--and if it is not true..what, grow down?Cazedessus (talk) 19:11, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I looked for a couple of negative incidents I've read of, and they are intact here. For example, the SF revenge killing at Fremont's orders (added a reference for this). --Deangup (talk) 04:58, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

-- Let's be clear, I can read of "a couple of negative incidents" of anyone who ever lived. For instance, because General Patton slapped a soldier, Patton's entire career is dismissed?Cazedessus (talk) 19:11, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Amazing. If I had "taken over" the Wiki article on Kit Carson, it would not have the lies and destortions

that it now has. Since it DOES have many "lies and distortions", clearly, I have NOT 'taken it over."Cazedessus (talk) 18:26, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Working here in the Wiki catacombs reminds me of being interviewed by the Spanish Inquisition, or the Gestapo, or anyone who is in absurd denial of details that can be demonstrated to be facts.Every correction that I have posted about Kit has been deleted, with no explanation. I wonder why? Creepy. Cazedessus (talk) 22:38, 9 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
For my part, I don't consider personal rants that belong on the talk page to be "corrections", and will revert them despite excessively dramatic analogies. Furthermore, if you equate having edits on Wikipedia reverted with being dragged from your family, tortured and being put to death, you need to take a break from using it. Immediately. - Vianello (talk) 00:01, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Carson's other two wives

I don't believe this article suggests Carson's previous two wives. The first wive's name was Waa-nibe, and Arapaho Indian. the tow had one daughter named Adeline. Waa-nibe died after a while. Carson's second wife was named Making-out-Road, she was a Cheyenne Indian.They had no children, but she stayed with him for a short period of time, then left him. Can someone put this in for me? thanks! I found this in this website: [2] 70.170.93.169 02:35, 2 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know much about Kit Carson, but the text of the article right now gives the same name (with a spelling variation) for his first two wives. It also says that each marriage produced a daughter named Adeline. Surely this is not correct??? Other than raising it here, I don't know how to highlight what seems a pretty glaring error in the article.72.83.247.43 17:17, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I requested permission from the corporate office in Salt Lake City to use that information.Haven't heard back from them yet. If I do, I'll add it. Richiar 21:57, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

KIT CARSON & HIS THREE WIVES, A Family History, by Marc Simmons (Univ. New Mexico, 2003, 195 p. including Index) is the answer here. Mr. Simmons is an expert on Spanish/Mexican/American Southwest and this book is at least 99% accurate. All the details are there, and more.Cazedessus 17:59, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

HERE ARE THE FACTS: Kit Carson was "married" three times: to Waa-nibe/Singing Grass (Arapaho), one daughter: Adeline; to Making-out-Road (Cheyenne)[maybe "Making-our-Road"?]; and to Maria Josefa Jaramillo (b. 1828, d. 1868), 8 children: Carlos, Julian, Teresina, Christopher, Charles, Rebecca, Estella and Josephine. Cazedessus (talk) 19:24, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've updated the family history as given as best I could with the references I could find. It should be, if not completely accurate, much more accurate than it was. The only thing I'm shaky on is the number of children Kit had Josefa Jaramillo. The original article suggested 15. Two of my sources say seven or eight. The more trustworthy of the two (I feel) lists eight, so that's what I went with. Aaronstj 19:10, 30 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Additions being made to the article

I'm making additions to the article here and there, to add in details that hopefully will add to the understanding of Carson. I will have more. All additions for now are coming from Blood and Thunder. Richiar 01:02, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Kit Carson and the Indians" by Tom Dunlay has more detailed facts about Kit Carson than found in the H. Sides book, which is nonetheless, excellent. Cazedessus (talk) 19:24, 9 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Entries in "popular culture" should be noteworthy and relevant; an obscure song by a minor writer is not noteworthy and I have therefore deleted it. rewinn 04:05, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Ten-four" Richiar 17:59, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I told Nareek this months ago, 10-4! Cazedessus 17:55, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

February 21, 2007 edits

A number of sections were added tonight. It would be nice to have sources and citations. The POV might be off in one or two added sections. Ronbo76 05:00, 22 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have made some additions and re arranging: while generally keeping the same information, I have added material which seems fitting to understanding Carsons life, expanding what is known about him, and having the flow of the article blend in. All the material added is from "Blood and Thunder", pp. 10-16, and 29-31. I find Hampton's book quite thorough, and extensively documented. I hope others like the changes, but any comments are welcome. Richiar 05:15, 22 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As an afterthought, There is more material that could be added that would seem to help illuminate Carson in a general article. If people prefer, I'll make proposals before making other changes. I think the material I added would require some alteration of the structure of the paragraph or two below what I added. Richiar 05:21, 22 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

New additions proposed

I'll finish up a few details on Carsons trapper years that I didn't have a chance to complete yet, if no one objects, in the next day or two.

Also, I am proposing some additional material be added to the article, and a little rearranging, mostly adding more material to the article rather than taking anything away. I would suggest a heading something like "The Fremont Explorations and the Army of the West", where Carson worked as a guide for Fremont and Kearney. I was considering adding material on the Klamath Lake incident, the San Quentin incident, and the Battle of San Pasqual. Any comments or discussion? Richiar 22:12, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I finished up the additions to the trapper years; the last two paragraphs that were there before were removed, as it was either the same information in a different form, or it will be covered with (hopefully) new material to be added on Fremont and Kearney. Some of the links were taken out that were previously there, because they didn't seem to contribute to the substance of the article. Richiar 17:47, 24 February 2007 (UTC) P.S. the material is from "Blood and Thunder" pp. 32-34[reply]

I added a header and some material on Carson's first two expeditions with Fremont. It will need a little cleaning up and a little more material added to clairfy it, which I'll be adding to rtly. Richiar 01:46, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I added a paragraph on the murder of the three Mexicans: I am considering a small footnote to clarify Fremonts 3rd expedition, which seems to have been politically motivated as a larger campaign by the US to obtain California by force. Also, for the sake of ending the Fremont section, it may be a good idea to consider Fremonts and Carsons involvement with Commodore Stockton as part of the military service section, which also has the additional complexity of how Kearney and the Army of the West becomes involved in the Battle of San Pasqual. Any comments or discussion? Richiar 22:20, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Re-write of Military Service section

I'll be adding material on the prelude to the battle of San Pasqual, which leads into Carsons chance meeting of Kearney, which leads to the battle of San Pasqual. To do so, I took out the Military Service section: the information in there will be kept, but with the added material, I thought the section would require a re-write. (Also, the preceeding paragraph had some identical information). Richiar 03:57, 6 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I expandecd the Military Service section by adding events that occurred from the time of Fremonts return to the Sacramento Valley, through the conquest of San Diego and Los Angeles, until Carson goes cross country carrying messages and by chance meets S. Kearney in the middle of New Mexico. Kearney then orders Carson to turn around and lead him back into California, where they end up in the Battle of San Pasqual, and are nearly wiped out, except that Carson gets through enemy lines and brings reinforcements. This sequence of events sets the stage for what happens next in Carsons life (he gets passed along from Fremont to Stockton to Kearney to Carleton-sound like a familiar pattern? (What do you mean?Cazedessus (talk) 19:33, 7 February 2009 (UTC)). I changed "Military Service" to "Military Service with Kearney" because of the different phases of Carson's military service. I added a couple of footnotes to the San Quentin incident and the meeting of Kearney at Valverde because I thought the information helped clarify the story, and I didn't see any easier way of putting it in. Finally, the previous version of this article stated that the 3 Mexican men were executed at Point San Pable, rather than San Quentin. I don't know which version is more accurate. If anyone has any information here, please help out. Also I removed the first three sentences from the previous version but the information was still kept. Richiar 05:32, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I earnestly suggest that you read Tom Dunlay's book KIT CARSON AND THE INDIANS, as it has more details than found in Hampton Side's recent BLOOD AND THUNDER. Cazedessus (talk) 19:33, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Last edit needs copyedit

This line appears, "Mr. Carson, your duty," to which Carson then complied. Dunlay Kit Carson and the Indians". Not sure what Dunlay applies to?

Thats the refernce from which the statement is taken. It might need to be modified to a proper format, but I wanted people to know to source of the information. I had an edit conflict while adding my explanation and will try again in a minute. Richiar 05:12, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I took out the reference to Dunlay. I had put it in, because I thought the incident might be controversial and thought some might want to have a reference. Is this better? Richiar 05:38, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Material added on Battle of San Pasqual

I added material from H. Sides. I think I forgot to sign in. The previous version states that Carson crawled 2 mi barefoot through the desert. My impression from Sides was 30 miles: I don't know which version is accurate. Also, Sides leaves the impression that Kearney was 30 mi from San Diago, and at another place leaves the imperssion that it was 25 miles. I put 25 just to keep some consistency. Richiar 04:48, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Recent additions

The recent changes to headings and the added map seem to be nice additions to the article. Thanks. Richiar 02:12, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

you are welcome. I like your recent additions and hope my minor changes help. WBardwin 05:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a way to get the image to enlarge? Richiar 14:13, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A little better: I was hoping the image could be expanded several times by clicking on it, but I traced it to the source (Lt. Emory's diary) on the link at the bottom of the article, and the source website itself won't allow the image to expand, it seems, which is too bad, because some of the Civil war battle maps can be expanded several times and one can really see the detail quite well in some instances. Richiar 23:41, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Courier and White massacre added

The material I added is from Sides pp. 241-259. The irony here is Carson trying to rescue Ann White and failing, while she has in her possession a fiction book about Carson rescuing a white female captured by Indians. Richiar 05:08, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Added material to Navajo campaign

I added material that gave background information to the Navajo campaign. While it may seem like a lot, actually it is quite compressed, given the amount of information there is about this event. I kept the previous material as it was except for a couple minor changes. This completes what I have in terms of making major changes to the article. Anything else will be copyedits for me, or minor additions. Hope this helps people to know something about Carson's life. I certainly benefited from the research. Richiar 15:09, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Added a paragraph from H. Sides on Carson's view of the Native American issues to the Reputation section. I believe thats all the content I have to add to the article. I might do a copy edit here and there if I come across something that needs to be fixed. Richiar 04:36, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Added to Good Articel review

I requested a good article review. This article is 43 kbytes long. Although it is long, I think it reads nicely. It would probably be a good idea to not add more content to it. Richiar 03:28, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

GA failed

I have reviewed this article according to the GA criteria and have failed this article at this time for several reasons. The intro needs to be expanded from its one line to several paragraphs to better summarize the article. See WP:Lead. An infobox would be great to add, look at WP:Bio for the most appropriate infobox. The main reason for failing this article is the lack of citations. There are a few footnotes and some Harvard referencing it looks like, but many sections are lacking inline citations. Go through the article and make sure to add inline citations to any statements that may be questioned about their verifiability. Once you have addressed these issues, please look over the rest of the criteria to see if the article is ready to be nominated again. If you disagree with this review, then you can seek an alternate opinion at Wikipedia:Good article review. If you have any questions about this review, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. --Nehrams2020 06:56, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Free masonry

I think the page should mention that Kit Carson was a member of the Free Mason's. His home in Taos was repaired and is owned and run by the Taos lodge (Bent Lodge #42). There is a plaque in the wall of Kit Carson's home in Taos from the lodge re-dedicating it. The museum there sells masonic gifts.

Dunlay and Sides in conflict

Dear Cazedusseus: I noticed you came back and left an edit today. I joined Wikipedia just at the time you left last year. I thought you had a lot of good things to say, but there was a lot of controversy and disagreement on some issues. The conflict is documented in the archives. As you can see, I worked long and hard on upgrading this article. Most of my additions came from Hampton Sides. I would say he is an established Carson authority, not a crank author. There are a number of other sources: I haven't read them all, and I am not trying to be partial to one author above another. Sides' book is exhausively referenced. I put a lot of his material into the article only because his book is so well written and referenced.

I haven't read Dunlay's book: it is one I would like to read. I would assume he is also an authority on Carson. From your edit, it looks like there is a conflict between Dunlay and Sides. I would suggest we come to a compromise statement which will include both points of view. But what you did was dismiss the statement from Sides, which is nearly a direct quote. If these two authors contradict each other, then it seems appropriate to come to a compromise statement. I will place a possible compromise statement here in the discussion for everyone to review in a few days.

Anyway, welcome back, and hopefully we can develop the article in a positive way.

Richiar (talk) 20:52, 17 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Unwarranted changes to article

This is in regards to the changes made by "babelover": you can't come in and just make significant changes to the article like you did without good cause. There are reliable texts that note "Singing Wind" passing away after the birth of her second child, and it seems this is the main accepted view. The references have been given, which you removed. And you gave no references for what you said. I don't know if this is a joke, or just erroneous judgement of a newcomer, but please check Wiki policy, and discuss any major changes on the talk page before proceeding. Hopefully, this is a sincere effort to make a contribution, and if so, welcome to Wikipedia, and let us know if you need any assistance.Richiar (talk) 20:01, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm on holiday right now, and cannot confirm or deny that Waa-nibe "Singing Grass" (not Singing Wind) died after the birth of her second child since I didn't bring my books with me. But I will look it up when I return to my library.Cazedessus (talk) 19:41, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Accumulated vandalism?

Looking over the article's history, it looks like a series of small "sneeky" changes have been made on Carson's age during significant events of his life. Someone with a book/biography should probably recheck. Don't have a book at hand at the moment. WBardwin (talk) 23:49, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lindsey Carsons death and date issues

In reviewing the edits made recently, a modification of Carson's age at the time of his fathers death was made from 7 to 9. I looked this up in H. Sides and Dunlays books. The date is Sept 1818. That calculates out to Carson being 8 at the time. H. Sides said "seven" even though he placed the year as 1818. It would seem then that Sides made an error in calculating Carson's true age. I made the appropriate correction. Richiar (talk) 02:33, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Adjustments to the duel

The paragraph was not quite accurate as it was, so I made some corrections that are a more accurate portrayal as described by historians. Richiar (talk) 00:18, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A couple of sentences added by 71.74.216.39 read as follows:

1) "Although Carson had ridden home before the march began, he was held responsible by the Navaho for breaking his word that those who surrendered would not be harmed."

I don't doubt that Carson was held responsible by the Navajo for this. This is a point of view which should be included, but it has to be documented. There are those with the point of view that he shouldn't be implicated. Both points of view should be in the article, but because of the controversy involved, could you please back up this statement with a reference? I haven't come across any reference that states that.

Let's face it. A "point of view" is simply an "opinion." And everybody has "opinions", while not everybody has "the facts." The fact is that Kit Carson was NOT directly or even indirectly "involved" with the forced march of several thousand Navajo to Bosque Redondo. It is also a fact that many Navajo were permitted to take their horses and sheep. It is also a fact that many Navajo were riding in wagons or behind soldiers on horseback, so not all of them "marched" anywhere. see: "Long Walk of Very Slim Man" Desert (magazine), April, 1946.Cazedessus (talk) 20:01, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

2) "As many as 3000 died...and many more..."

This is a controversial statement. It needs a reference. Here is a quote from Kit Carson and the Indians by Dunlay: "Frank McNitt, the tireless researcher of the Navajo wars, broke down the official figures on the Long Walk and decided that 11, 612 Navajos were sent to Bosque Redondo. Of these, 336 were officially reported to have died on the march...." p. 304

And Frank McNitt is correct. The "3000" is a lie, meant to smear Kit Carson.Cazedessus (talk) 19:59, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Raymond Locke does not indicate figures that high, he indicates more like several hundred at most. Richiar (talk) 04:20, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Raised near Franklin

1. Kits family (ie, mother and stepfather) apprenticed him at the age of 14 to saddler David Workman, in nearby Franklin. He went to Franklin from the nearby country. He was raised in the country. Franklin was the head of the Sante Fe Trail, where Kit would have met mountain men in Saddler David Workman’s shop, and formed his plan to relocate at age 16 to the Southwest. Kit Carson and the Indians, T. Dunlay, p 36.

2. Boonslick is a subregion of a larger region where D. Boone inhabited, not a specific place. “Daniel Boone left Kentucky in 1799 and took up a Spanish land grant along the Missouri River. The Booneslick area took its name from salt licks, a resource that two of Boone’s sons began to exploit in 1805.” T. Dunlay p. 27.

So Carson was not raised in Booneslick.

3. “Permanent settlement of the [Booneslick region] began just a year before the arrival of the Carsons in 1811, the year the traveller Henry Marie Brackenridge noted a “flourishing settlement” of seventy five families living mostly on the banks of the Missouri in the space of 4 or 5 miles. They constituted the westernmost settlement in the territory of Missouri; many of them were from Kentucky, and like the Kentucky pioneers, they “forted up” in stations formed of groups of cabins arranged in an enclosure completed by a stockade. There were three significant ones (which implies there were more) in the immediate area---Cooper’s Fort, Fort Kinkead, and Fort Hampstead.” T. Dunlay, p. 27.

It is in one of these settlements that Kit Carson was “raised”.

Based on this information, it would be technically most correct to say that KC was “raised in a country settlement which was part of a system of over 75 families that clustered around the three forts of Cooper’s Fort, Fort Kindkead, and Fort Hampstead, on the Missouri River, near to the town of Franklin.”

If we can all agree that this is an ackward statement for the article, then perhaps the most concise and readable way to express this is to say, that KC was raised near Franklin. I will adjust the wording accordingly.Richiar (talk) 05:27, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dunlay further documents the Carsons moving to the "Boones Lick" region in 1811, when Carson was 1 year old. p. 27. Richiar (talk) 05:42, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


New Mexican

What is the term New Mexican meant to describe in this article? It sounds like a nationality or ethnicity. Does this refer to white settlers, Spanish colonialists or Mexican residents caught up in the confict? Diastar (talk) 19:05, 3 August 2008 (UTC)diastar[reply]

I think your question is a good one: I believe it refers to post-Spanish colonial Mexican residents of the New Mexico territory. The term is widely used in the historical writings I've read, but I haven't been able to find out the origin of the term, or an authoritative validation of what I think it means.Richiar (talk) 05:30, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Quoting from "Blood and Thunder"

The first paragraph ending "The Boone and Carson families became good friends, working, socializing, and intermarrying." is almost a word-for-word "lift" from "Blood and Thunder" by Hampron Sides. Paulburnett (talk) 18:21, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Number of children

It seems there is a question about the number of Carson children, whether there were 14 or 15, and whether Kit was the 6th or 9th or 11th. Not being there at the time, I can't say which figure is accurate. Dunlay p. 26-27 says "In 1793 his first wife died, leaving him with 5 children and in 1796 he married Rebecca Robinson, who bore him ten more, including Christopher, the sixth". Sides says "The elder Carson had an enormous family-five children by his first wife and ten by Kit's mother, Rebecca Robinson. Of those fifteen children, Kit was the eleventh in line". I don't care if the article says fourteen and Kit was 9th, but there shouldn't there be a reference to support that?

The change of Carson's second Indian wife's name from "Making Out Road" to "Making Our Road" was a good edit: it expresses the true meaning from the sources I've read. (M. Simmons, Kit Carson and His Three Wives, p. 36).

The sentence about the Boone and Carson families was put in my myself and was intended to be derived rather than lifted, but I found it difficult to modify Sides work sometimes because he is such an effective writer.Richiar (talk) 19:42, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(RfC) Ongoing dispute, consensus/input requested

A quick look at this change summary (and the article's prior/subsequent edit histories) should cover some of the changes User:Cazedessus wishes to institute in this article. Discussion between us has thus far, viewable at User talk:Cazedessus, has not proven fruitful in reaching a compromise. Thus, I would like to turn this over to the consensus of our fellow editors. For those who would rather not untangle the skeins of the talk page, my position is that the great majority of these inclusions as worded constitute POV and/or OR and/or unpublished synthesis of published materials. In the meantime, I resolve to make no further edits to this article until consensus is reached. If it cannot be, I will instead present this to WP:RfC, and so on up the dispute resolution chain if/as needed. I would like to thank everyone who offers their input on this, as well as User:Cazedessus for putting up with this convoluted and clearly frustrating process, as well as with some immature initial commentary on my part. - Vianello (talk) 19:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Update: Presented to RfC. - Vianello (talk) 09:03, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am removing this from the 3PO list as it is an RFC, not 3PO. NJGW (talk) 22:13, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oops, technically you'd be correct. Thank you. - Vianello (talk) 08:12, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

His last words were "I just wish I had time for one more bowl of chilli". I cant remember the source, if someone could please find it i'd be greatful.

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