Talk:Maine Coon

Removed images

The following images have been removed from the article:

• Image:Zico - Maine Coon with tufts of fur behind his ears.jpg
• Image:Maine-coon.jpg
• Image:RoryJJay.jpg

I simply could not incorporate these images into the article. Besides the size of the article restricting how many pictures we can comfortably place, these specific images are either of poor-quality (one does not even show the face of the cat) and/or are not of encyclopedic value. One is found in the Wikipedia Commons link at the bottom of the article. I have placed these images here in case we can expand the article and thus add more room to put the pictures back in. But I would prefer to find better quality images instead of these. Ms. Sarita (talk) 19:22, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I liked the first. the other two just didn't seem to have anything to add. #1 is a great example of Summer coat.

I would rather not see the first image back in the article, or any of these images for that matter. The first image doesn't really add anything to the article either. I'm sure that there are other good representations of the breed's summer coat out there. Ms. Sarita (talk) 08:51, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

but not in the article. could we just keep that one until we find a better one?--Marhawkman (talk) 03:32, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

You can do whatever you want to. No one is the owner of this article. But honestly, I would like to see this article get to GA status and with that photo (or any of the photos on the list) in the article, it'll never get there. I'm extremely busy, but see if you can't find another photo that is of good quality, that is a good representation of the summer coat of the breed. Try that first, but if you can't find anything, you are more than welcome to put it back in. But I may remove it again once I begin on the full revision of the article. Ms. Sarita (talk) 08:59, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

The purpose of the first photo is to show what tufts of fur behind the ears look like. It is an excellent example of this in addition to being a good representation of summer coat. If the face were showing, the tufts would be hidden. Zicoon (talk 21:36, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

However, tufts of fur behind the ears are not characteristic/typical of the breed. Putting it into the article is implying that it is. Also, there is more than one way to take a picture of these "tufts" and still have the face showing. You can most definitely show the tufts, but have a focus on the head of the animal. But, honestly, all I see is a top-view of your pet, which is not very encyclopedic. In addition, there is no mention of the significance of a summer coat in the Maine Coon, which means that the photo/caption is not warranted. But, like I said to Marhawkman, anyone can do whatever they like, but I will probably remove the photo again once I begin revising the article so that it has a chance of attaining GA status. Cheers. Ms. Sarita (talk) 23:09, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

The revision is almost complete. I just slaved away at it for the past couple of days, trying to finish it, and am currently working on revising the lead section. Then I am finished. I am afraid that two more images will need to be removed; I just couldn't fit them into the article smoothly:

• Image:Nala.JPG
• Image:Maine Coon tufts.JPG
• An image that was previously removed and placed back in the article also, unfortunately, did not make it into the revision: Zico - Maine Coon with tufts of fur behind his ears.jpg

If anyone feels that one of the remaining images should be replaced by one of the images listed above or another image altogether, please feel free to let me know. I will post the revision up by tomorrow night and will then nominate it for GA status within the next week (so that we can work out any discussions). So if anyone has any problems, leave me a message ASAP so we can avoid a quick-fail during the GAR. Thanks! – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 11:01, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Revision

The revision of the article is currently underway. I am going to attempt to get this article up to GA status. I am revising everything, including prose, section naming, images, and references. I have been working on this for the past week and a half and will try to have it completed within the next couple of weeks (hopefully). If there are any suggestions you may have, please let me know here or on my talk page. Cheers! – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 00:44, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

did you add the army of "Citation needed" tags?--Marhawkman (talk) 06:13, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I did. In the revision, I am working on finding citations for that "army" of necessary cite templates. That entire section had only four references supporting it, and the section below it has been tagged since June. As I was looking at that "army", it made me realize that the article needed to be entirely revamped. I was able to find many more references for the revision. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 07:46, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

The revision is taking a little longer than expected due to my time being consumed by exams and research papers. I'll try to have it completed within the next few weeks, if not sooner. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 12:41, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Size

The weight range given for females seems to be too low. Does anybody know whether this is the case?Boobaloob (talk) 16:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

From what I have found, that weight for females is pretty accurate. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 18:47, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Nala.JPG

Resolved

Why do you feel that this image is better than travismainecoon.jpg? Whether or not the Nala.jpg is more photogenic than others is an opinion, not fact. There is another image that displays the full body of the Maine Coon (introduction image) and an image that displays the "fluffy tail" (the image in the "Health" section). But now, we do not have a good image mentioning the "ruff" and the subject of your image is contained in a large empty space whereas the travismainecoon.jpg image is obviously the subject of the photo. Let's get a consensus here before we decide on anything further. So far, three separate editors have disagreed with the introduction of the Nala.jpg image. Let's see if others would like to discuss it before we incorporate it into the article. I appreciate your patience. Thanks. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 20:57, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

"Photogenic" is an opinion, yes. Someone said above that they are using "photographic quality" to determine what pictures to keep. The the new picture has much better "photographic quality" than the former. This can easily be seen when having both pictures side by side. The new photograph is more life-like-- the textures of the fur and the cat is presented in a more complicated manner, especially by the way the light hits the fur on the left side of the cat, which adds to the softness. Also, it's evident that the new picture was taken with a higher quality camera, and since the image has a higher resolution, it's easier for people to see a typical example of a Maine Coon cat. In the article, the picture comes into play at this part:

"The Maine Coon is considered a semi-longhaired, or medium-haired, cat. The coat is soft and silky, although texture may vary with coat color. The length is shorter on the head, neck, and shoulders and longer on the stomach and flanks. Although not required, there is usually a noticeable "ruff" of fur surrounding the neck and upper chest of the Maine Coon. The coat is waterproof and lies against the body of the animal. Minimal grooming is required for the breed, compared to other long-haired breeds, as their coat is mostly self-maintaining due to a light-density undercoat. The coat is subject to seasonal variation,[18] with the fur being thicker in the winter and thinner during the summer. The Maine Coon has extra tufts of fur growing between the toes and the tips of the ears."

The new picture shows detailed physical characteristics of ALL of the above. With a full-body and face picture, it shows the "silky coat" (as per the photo quality...you can especially see the fur texture around the back and down to the hind legs). You can see some parts of ruff of fur around the neck and face, since the cat is looking back toward the camera. You can see the "light-density undercoat." In short, the new picture, Nala.JPG, gives a much more substantial example of what the article is trying to convey at the section in which the picture is inserted.

I'd like to get other people's opinions as well.

Wo0ter08 (talk) 02:05, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

You have made some excellent points WoOter08. And image quality has more to do with the subject of the picture and how the animal is positioned in the image, not just how many megapixels a camera has. If that were the case, the size comparison image would have been removed long ago, but other editors believe that the image is important and extremely relevant to the article. In addition, as I have said before, three separate editors have disagreed with your opinion. *I* am willing to compromise in maybe replacing the image of the two-year-old male Maine Coon at the beginning of the article with the image of your cat. The image you have chosen to replace is important in displaying the "ruff" that many Maine Coons possess, since some people don't know what a "ruff" looks like, but everyone knows what a bushy tail looks like. Therefore, I'd like to see the "ruff" image kept, if that's possible. See what I'm saying?

But first, let's get the opinions of at least the other two editors and see their reasoning before we come to a decision. Also, if we decide to replace one of the images, can you either crop out the empty space surrounding the cat or take another picture with the cat looking straight at the camera so we can see the eyes? I am assuming this is your pet or a relative's/friend's pet since I've never seen anyone so hellbent on getting an image into an article. :-) But, I could be wrong. I wish I could have made the article longer so that we could incorporate more images, but unfortunately, it wasn't possible. Thanks for responding. I appreciate it. I'll hold off on the GA nomination until we can get consensus. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 02:32, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm aware that megapixels and size don't have much to do with the issue at hand, but I'm just trying to say that you can almost feel the texture of the Maine Coon cat in Nala.JPG because of the quality of the picture. I feel that the picture is a better representation of characteristics of Maine Coons, but I'm OK with the picture replacing the two year old Maine Coon instead. I can't take another picture of this cat because she passed away from HCM, but I'll crop out parts of the background and upload the new one. Here it is:

Image:MaineCoonGirl.jpg

Wo0ter08 (talk) 03:08, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I disagree about the texture of the cat's fur and your image displaying this better than the other image. This is why we are discussing it. Thanks for cropping the image. We'll use it if necessary.

I'm sorry to hear about your cat. That is hard. I'd be inconsolable if/when my Maine Coon dies. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 03:54, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

When observing the photograph, it shows much more about Maine Coons and is more relevant to the topic of the article than the other photograph, in my opinion. Unlike the fur of most cats, Maine Coons have softer coats with thinner strands of hair for fur. The new photograph poses as evidence to this information that's in the article, that I reiterated here. I don't get a sense of this texture from other other photograph, and I'm sure that people who don't know much about Maine Coons can better understand this characteristic. The texture of the fur is only one thing- the image also demonstrates other key physical characteristics with the well-defined Maine Coon ears, face, tail, etc.

Wo0ter08 (talk) 04:22, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm one of the editors who reverted the addition of the Nala.jpg image, and I'm very impressed with the points you've made, Wo0ter08. My initial idea was to ask if you might be able to create another image of Nala, since some of the images we currently have in the article illustrate specific anatomical points about Maine Coons but aren't really the best photos we could have. I feared, correctly as it seems, that this might not be possible... I am so sorry about your cat. I know only too well how it feels to lose them. I lost one of my buddies about a year and a half ago, and I still miss him.

In any case, I see your point about the quality of the image and would support substituting it for the two-year-old Maine Coon picture. I don't see that particular image as essential, and I believe you've made a good case for its inclusion. It's a good picture of a lovely cat, and I think that in can fit well in that spot. Kafka Liz (talk) 01:05, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestions Kafka Liz. I was actually thinking that replacing the image of the two-year-old Maine Coon is not the best substitute. It is the only image we have that displays the facial features up close and personal. I played with the article a little and found that I could move the show cats image up a little bit and incorporate the Nala picture into the "Cat shows and popularity" section. What does everyone think of that? Let me know and I'll have that done ASAP if you two feel it's a good fit. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 01:47, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

That would be fine, as far as I'm concerned. Kafka Liz (talk) 01:54, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

That would be alright with me as well. Thanks for taking the lead to this issue, Ms. Sarita, and thanks for your suggestion Kafka Liz. I was also wondering, under the Health section, would it be possible for me to add that feline hypertrophic cardiomyopathy very likely leads to arterial thromboembolism in which the rear legs become paralyzed? There are many sources that this information comes from. The article mentions that hypertrophic cardiomyopathy is a serious health problem and specifically describes the biology of it, but it doesn't really say what the problem means in the end. Since this is a very prevalent problem in Maine Coons, it would probably be good to put on this Wiki page to provide more information about what the disease actually does to the cat. Also, the link to HCM isn't specific to felines, and the results of HCM in felines is different from humans (ie blood clots breaking off from the heart and blocking the arteries to the rear legs). Wo0ter08 (talk) 02:32, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Dammit...I knew I was forgetting something. So, the image has been added, the information about HCM added, and the Wikilink fixed. I'm glad we were able to resolve this. I will be nominating the article for GA status within the next week or two (I want to give it some time because I don't want edit wars to happen again during the review, causing it to meet the quick-fail criteria). Just a warning, if a related issue with the images comes up during the review, I will most likely remove the Nala.jpg image because I still feel that there is nothing entirely special about it...but I don't believe this will be the case and I don't think the images will be a problem. Just wanted to give you a heads up. Cheers! – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 04:34, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Looks good to me. I don't think anyone will have a problem with the image, now that the article isn't drowning in them. Thanks for all your work, Ms. Sarita, and you too, Wo0ter08, for your help with the health information. Kafka Liz (talk) 11:23, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Not a problem. I'm sure the images won't be a problem. At least, I hope not. ;-) Thanks for all of the suggestions Kafka Liz. Much appreciated. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 00:43, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Winter Climate Physical Adaptations

Ms. Sarita (and anyone else who wishes to challenge the information that I have introduced to this article): The adaptations for harsh winter climates is a very important and highly relevant part of the Maine Coon's physical attributes and should be included in the Wikipedia article. I don't understand why you are so keen on removing them. While I am grateful that people are interested in maintaining this article in good condition, I feel that your personal attempts at controlling this article and obtaining good article status for it have gone too far and are too self-serving. You are acting as if you own this article, and not just in regards to my edits. I have placed the Winter Climate Physical Adaptations back in, this time with the citations that you requested. I put considerable research into this and have compiled the information from many sources. I have many more additional references for the information that I have introduced, but citing all of them would be unnecessary and excessively clutter the article. If you challenge any of the information, please discuss it and state your challenges here instead of just yanking it.

As for the photo: I have placed it back where it was until you removed it in your major edit a few weeks ago. It is very relevant and serves a double purpose of illustrating both ear muffs and a summer coat in addition to showing other attributes of a Maine Coon. The ear muffs (tufts of fur behind the ears) characteristic is seen in a significant number of Maine Coons, and there are other photos on the web of Maine Coons with ear muffs. Perhaps if people knew what they were called (i.e. "ear muffs"), we could more easily find more such photos. For some reason you don't like that photo, perhaps because the cat does not meet your criteria for a show cat, or perhaps because you don't find the photo pretty enough, but that does not give you the right to all of a sudden repeatedly target it for removal. Just because ear muffs are not mentioned in the show standards for Maine Coons (in my opinion they should be, because it is a very endearing quality) does not mean that it is not a significant physical characteristic of Maine Coons. Keep in mind that many Maine Coons do not have ruffs or lynx tips either. Frequency of lynx tips (and quite possibly ruffs) is increasing only because of selective breeding. Please set your personal opinions and biases aside, as I don't want to see an edit war. Zicoon (talk) 08:30, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Zicoon: Personally, I'm offended that you have falsely accused me (and others) of ownership of the article. There is plenty of evidence in this talk page that says otherwise. I could say the same about you (since you seem to be so adamant about having an image that is unnecessary to the article), but it is not constructive. I am more than willing, and have stated, that I am a compromising editor and want nothing than what's best for the article. And I'm sure that you feel the same.

Regarding the image, I have addressed my concerns with it (see above), but you refused to have any part in the argument. Your reasoning behind why I am cautious of the image is wrong. Your cat looks identical to mine (at first glance, I thought someone had "stolen" a picture of my cat and put it in the article), so if there is any personal bias on my part, it would be in favor of your image. Let me remind you that your image was not the only one removed during the final revision. Why is your image necessary but an image of, for example, a polydactyl Maine Coon (which are plentiful) not necessary? I don't understand why you believe that an image of "ear muffs" and a "summer coat" is critical to the article. Perhaps you can enlighten me and also explain to me why "ear muffs" are so significant, in your opinion.

As far as the information that you have edited, it needs to be sourced, per the verifiability policy. That is not a personal opinion of mine. It's how Wikipedia operates and if you input information such as you did with your edit, it could potentially be seen as original research. I am only abiding by Wikipedia's policies, so I have no idea why the hostility has arisen. The GA process is usually lenient, but since I plan to try and take this article to FA status, having unsourced information would bring strong opposition and would possibly lead to its denial and/or unnecessary work. If you have sources, then this obviously isn't an issue.

I appreciate you expressing your frustration and I don't wish to see an edit war either, as it could end up with both of us blocked. But I feel like it must be your way or the highway, whereas I have been open to compromise. So, please, don't point fingers. Let's talk it out. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 09:20, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

UPDATE: I have revised the paragraph, references, and moved images around. There was a lot of redundant information, and some unencyclopedic terminology has been removed (e.g., "huge"). I have incorporated your image and, sadly, removed another image to avoid cluttering the article. I am wary of the amount of the word "snow" in the paragraph. Perhaps you can implement some different words? In addition, I am not seeing any references that say why "earmuffs" are specifically an adaptation to cold winter climates. You may be wondering why the reference was removed. It is simply because it is unreliable. Who is the author? What makes him/her an expert on Maine Coons? Even this author is citing information from various websites but s/he did not provide a citation to the "earmuffs" reference. Why not? Perhaps a better reference can be found. Hopefully you can find the time to address this. I'd appreciate your input. Thanks. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 10:15, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

The ear muffs reference and picture should be removed. The citation for ear muffs points only to a glossary entry which is not breed specific. Google returns 2,300,000 pages for "maine coon" but only 2,300 for "maine coon ear muffs". I couldn't see one image of a maine coon with ear muffs in Google's first 10 pages of image results either. It's not a breed characteristic and not particularly common.

Since the picture is notable only for the ear muffs it should be removed. If a picture of the summer coat is desirable then I would prefer to see the same animal in summer and winter coats to highlight the (often amazing) seasonal difference. Also it is unprofessional for Zicoon to keep reinserting an image of a cat they apparently own. Zicoon, if you must have a picture of the ear muffs then I think you should find one that you don't have a personal stake in. - 219.89.169.104 (talk) 00:15, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

You know my stance on this, from my writing above. What irritates me is that User:Zicoon refuses to take part in a debate and/or to improve things within the article. As long as s/he gets his/her way (i.e., the image is in the article), all debates are then ignored. It's frustrating, at best, because I try to compromise, but I don't feel that it is mutual. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 04:34, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Is there any real evidence that "earmuffs" are traits of Maine Coon cats? If not, that information doesn't belong in the article and should be removed because of it's unreliable value. Once a reliable and relevant source is found, it should be put back in. 24.187.54.113 (talk) 03:11, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Looking at The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Cat Breeds (Angela Nixon) (2005), there is no mention of ear muffs, and none of the images show the ear muffs. At this point, I would say that we have consensus that the image is not representative of the breed. Unless Zicoon replies to this discussion, I will remove the image and the text referring to the ear muffs in 7 days, at 3:28 1-2-2009 (UTC). --Terrillja _talk 03:29, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

For what it's worth, my Maine Coon has "ear muffs", though not quite as large as the ones in the photo. And I have met several other Maine Coons with ear muffs. They do vary in size, even over time on my cat, and perhaps many people just don't notice them or pay particular attention to them. I have not personally seen ear muffs on any other type of cat. I don't believe that the information on ear muffs should be removed. Surely there has to be mention of ear muffs on Maine Coons somewhere. 75.172.179.99 (talk) 07:57, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the unreliable information and source. Until a better reference is found, it should stay out of the article so as not to hinder the article's encyclopedic value. 24.187.54.113 (talk) 22:50, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Looking over the above discussion again, and the recent edits to the article, I feel that I need to make a few comments. Ms. Sarita, yes you have been displaying ownership of the article. You should read ownership again. There was absolutely nothing wrong with Zicoon's original adaptations paragraph, and yet you couldn't resist immediately yanking it in an uncivilized manner, and then failing that, adding your own touches to it. Also, "huge" is a proper English word, why would it be unencyclopedic? Does Wikipedia maintain a list of unencyclopedic words? "Huge" seemed to be the appropriate word in the context in which it was used. Changing the photo size to 175, which is 5 under the default size of 180 is vicious and can only be seen as an immature attack. I'm a little surprised that Zicoon has not responded, but then again, I wouldn't want to be involved in an edit war either. I can say a lot more also, but I'm going to try to stay out of it. 75.172.179.99 (talk) 16:59, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) To the anonymous user above: I have read WP:OWN several times. You have your own opinion, and if you feel as if I am "owning" the article, so be it. I won't attempt to sway you either way. There were many things wrong with the paragraph that Zicoon put into the article, and I fixed them, while still keeping the full intent of what Zicoon wished to write. Note the part on the edit page where it states: If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed for profit by others, do not submit it. In other words, I have as much right as Zicoon or any other editor to edit a section of information. "Huge"? "Large" seemed to be a more appropriate word. I'm sorry if you feel that this is unacceptable. Your mentioning of the photo size is petty, at best. I won't even comment on it. Change it back if you feel it was "vicious" and "immature". The fact of the matter is, I was more than open for compromise. And I want nothing more than what's best for the article. Again, I'm sorry for feeling that way. The image and the information has been incorporated into the article, but many people feel that the image and the "ear muffs" information should be removed. And I agree. What the hell is it that you want me to do? How about this: I will stay out of this particular argument and let others decide what to do. Let me know when this has been resolved so that I can nominate it for FA status. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 18:24, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Sorry to have upset you, but I felt that someone had to say it. I found my copy of Maine Coon Cats by Carol Himsel, and yes, there are photos of Maine Coons with ear muffs in it. Also, I feel that the original caption under the photo, where it said "ear muffs (tufts of fur behind ears)", added clarity to the photo. Without the extra text people who don't fully read and absorb the article may think that someone is trying to be cute, and referring to ear muffs as a clothing accessory. 75.172.179.99 (talk) 00:27, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

You are mistaken in thinking that I am upset. I'm not. Sorry. You do whatever you feel is best for the article, as will I. Not only was your attack against me, personally, unwarranted, it was not constructive in the slightest. I have done nothing but try to work with other editors, but you are only here to accuse and attack. I'm not down with that at all, which is why I said that I am removing myself from this particular "debate". Happy editing. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 09:14, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

So what's with the revert? I don't see any reason for the change. Is there one?--Marhawkman (talk) 14:44, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Can't everyone just get along! I think "earmuffs" are common enough in the Maine Coon population to be brought to the attention to an unknowledgeable seeker of information. My M.C. and my Aunt's both have earmuffs. Anyways I redid the last edit to include back in the photo with the earmuffs. Hopefully this characteristic will not be ignored. I am indeed glad to see all the discussion and devotion to bringing forth all this info on Maine Coons. Thanks to everyone who contributed and who will continue to contribute. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Archinitidon (talk • contribs) 19:31, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I want to apologize for not responding sooner. Unfortunately I frequently have extended periods without internet access. I also want to thank those that have defended my contributions. To those who have been against my contributions, I hope that we can quickly and amicably resolve this and move on and work in a co-operative and friendly manner.

When I added references to the paragraph on Winter Climate Physical Adaptations, I included a reference to the article The Maine Coon: Monster or the Best House Cat Ever? by Unwirklich Vin Zant. This article not only mentions "ear muffs" by name (which is rare, because most people don't know what tufts behind the ears are called), but is well written and includes a great photo of a Maine Coon with visible ear muffs. Unfortunately the reference to this article was removed leaving only a reference to the definition of "ear muffs", which gets some people unnecessarily worked up.

Here are some other quotes I found on the internet on ear muffs, though not by name:

"They have tufts of fur behind the ears, long hair on the back of the legs and hair between the toes." The Temperament of a Maine Coon Cat by Darlene Zagata

"Maine Coons tend to have angular heads with squared-off jaws and tufts of hair growing at the tips of the ears and sometimes behind the ears as well." Characteristics of the Maine Coon Cat by Greg Marlett

There is no denying that many Maine Coons have ear muffs, they're just often smaller than the ones in the photo. That photo is truly a great example of ear muffs. And even on that cat, the ear muffs have at times been essentially unnoticeable. Even in our Wikipedia article's photo of the "Three show-quality Maine Coons" Image:Фото кунов.jpg, if you zoom in closely, you will notice that the right-hand Maine Coon has ear muffs. (The other two likely also have ear muffs, but it's harder to be absolutely certain from this angle.)

The ear muffs definition references Iams' Glossary of Cat Terms. It just so happens that the Maine Coon in the photo on the "Iams Cat Breed Guide - Maine Coon Cats" page has ear muffs (click on the photo to get the larger version). Wikipedia encourages "collecting and organizing material from existing sources" (aka "source-based research") (see original research), thus in an effort to try to appease those demanding better references, and until I (or someone else) can find a more acceptable all-in-one reference, I propose referencing "ear muffs" with Iams' definition of "earmuffs" and a photographic reference such as "Iams Cat Breed Guide - Maine Coon Cats" or some other photographic reference such as one of the Maine Coon books.

I propose using a space between "ear" and "muffs" because it is much more commonly spelled like this in the cat world and for consistency with Wikipedia's LaPerm article. Incidentally I agree with the use of the word "silky" in LaPerm's definition of ear muffs as "longer, silky hair on the backs of the ears", but unlike here, LaPerm editors haven't been required to provide a reference for every detail.

I also want to discuss the rest of the Winter Climate Physical Adaptations paragraph and some of the associated edits, but am out of time and will have to do that later. Zicoon (talk) 11:26, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

cool. That was excellent work and I agree with you. I'd love to see what else you wanted to say.--Marhawkman (talk) 12:46, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

I know I said that I would stay out of this, but I wanted to say something to Zicoon. I think you did an excellent job in finding sources and defending your point. I applaud your efforts. My only concern is that by mentioning the "ear muffs" in such a way that it is a physical winter climate adaptation, people will begin to wonder why all Maine Coons do not have this feature. I believe that it needs to be stressed that this is not a typical characteristic of the breed (which is what the breed description section is normally used for). I believe everyone here wants this to be resolved in a civil way (which I have been attempting to do) as quickly as possible. Hopefully you have not taken my criticism and opinions as an attack, because they have not been. I hope that you stay active in this discussion, so that we may clear this out of the way and begin on improving the article. Thanks for your time. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 19:36, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

I have a maine coon cat with "earmuffs" here in Brasil. Cats here are not common as pets because here there are many stray cats here. People how do like cats here do like with much hair because the stray cats all have little hairs. I have seen other maine coon cats here with earmuffs from the person where my cat purchased. 69.20.226.229 (talk) 17:27, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

So, there has not been any discussion regarding this section in the past few days. Is it safe to say that this has been resolved? – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 23:06, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to add my thoughts on this topic, take it or leave it. Why was the picture of the Maine Coon with the ruff around the neck replaced by the one with "ear muffs?" Although so-called "ear muffs" may exist in Maine Coons, it doesn't seem to be all that common. The trait isn't mentioned at all in Marilis Hornidge's "The Maine Coon" and I don't see the feature shown in any of the pictures in the book. Shouldn't the pictures in this article depict more common and signature features of the cat to provide general knowledge? Here's what Hornidge writes about the Maine Coon's neck:

"The neck is embellished by a ruff, which may indeed look like an Elizabethan ruff going all the way around (although this is rare), or may look like a hood with a ruffle under the chin." (32).

Here's what she writes about the Maine Coon's ears:

"The ears, being proportionately large and wide at the base contribute to the wild look, as do the outstanding tufts of fur springing from the inside of the ear and seeming to fill it. These tufts are much fuller and longer than those of any other breed. The tufts on the tops and tips of the ears, which are almost vestigial in some and so heavy as to be reminiscent of the lynx and bobcat in others, are a genetic puzzle to breeders and an enchantment to photographers. They add another grace note from the wild and times past to the Maine Coon's appearance." (33).

She makes it known that the ruff around the neck is a signature trait to Maine Coons. As for the ears, she describes the tufts on the inside and tips, but there's nothing about tufts growing on the outside, or the back side, of the ears. Wo0ter08 (talk) 05:47, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Hello again, Wo0ter08! Unfortunately, the "ruff" image was removed to incorporate the "ear muff" image. I cringed as I made the edit, but it seems that there are several others who believe the "ear muff" image is critical to the article. I would say the "ruff" is a more typical characteristic of the Maine Coon than "ear muffs", but I have removed myself from the discussion. Since the "ruff" image would be most appropriate in the "Breed description" section, and there has been much debate over the "ear muff" image, there is not enough room to allow all images. I no longer have an opinion either way. I simply want this resolved and I am only giving you my explanation for what happened. You have argued excellent points. Hopefully, your argument will be taken into consideration by others. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 06:09, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Besides, the Ruff is visible in several of the other pics. I personally don't see how the fact that a single source doesn't echo a point of view renders that point of view obsolete.--Marhawkman (talk) 06:48, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

What I'm trying to say is that "ear muffs" are not a common physical characteristic of the Maine Coon cat. People come to this page to learn about Maine Coons. Because we can only put a limited amount of pictures on the page, that space should be utilized to facilitate in the understanding of main and general characteristics, not what only a few Maine Coons have.

Also, the way in which the paragraph is written makes it seem that the ruff around the neck is only a winter adaptation. This is obviously untrue and should be changed. Wo0ter08 (talk) 17:02, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Just a heads up: I have removed the Iams reference at the end of this particular paragraph (the one that contains the glossary). Per the GA review, this is only citing a glossary. Not that Maine Coons possess "ear muffs". A new reference, stating that Maine Coons possess "ear muffs" will need to be found. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 17:28, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank-you for the heads-up, but please read my previous discussion entry again. Zicoon (talk) 13:29, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to discuss the changes that were previously made to the original Winter Climate Physical Adaptations paragraph, and the changes that I have made now. I have made several compromises and leave some of the things that I feel less strongly about in the form that they were changed to. I did change back (at least partially) some of the things that I felt more strongly about.

I have no doubt that the paragraph can be considerably improved, but please be courteous and propose or discuss any significant changes here before making them, or at least explain why you are making them.

The sentence on the Maine Coon's tail was unnecessarily too heavily edited. The characteristics of the Maine Coon tail as being long and raccoon-like were removed. I am adding these back in because over and over, I see references to Maine Coon tails as being long and raccoon-like. Quote: "The resemblance is partly in the Maine Coon’s tail, which indeed is long, bushy, extravagant, and sometimes ringed—remarkably like a raccoon tail." It also seems that a change was made to the wording in an attempt to keep the sentence short, but in the process added a repeat of the word "tail" to the sentence in a manner that I believe reads a little odd ("A bushy tail prevents the tail from ..."). I attempted to correct this while honoring the previous editor's intent of keeping the sentence short. I also believe that curling or wrapping the tail around themselves, and using it to keep warm, needs to be explicitly mentioned. Quotes: "Don't you think that this would also be a big factor in keeping the thin parts of the face warm since the cat could curl the tail across its face?", "as they curl up, they could insulate the parts that are sparsely furred".

The mention of polydactyls' paws being especially suited for walking on snow was apparently needlessly removed (or at least without discussion). I've added it back in. The reference that I previously used was, quote, "because the paws are usually double-wide in size. They can walk through snow more easily, hence another nick-name of snowshoe cat; but most often though, they are simply called polys." The author, Beth Kus, has an authoritative bio (see bottom of ), but I'm guessing that the reference was removed from the article because it points to a geocities web page. So I'm changing the reference: "I don’t think anybody would argue with us, that the increased area - the area mass increase compared to the weight mass increase of the polydactyl’s feet - would give them a greater capacity to walk on snow. That alone would be sufficient selective advantage that it would not surprise me at all that polydactyl was very prevalent."

On a related note, and in response to the question as to why an image of a polydactyl Maine Coon is not necessary: An image of a polydactyl would be great! Especially an image of a polydactyl walking on snow! Even more especially the photo of Dirigo's Dazzle walking on snow (http://www.geocities.com/heartland/2250/thumsnow.jpg). I love that photo! Anyone care to see if we can get permission to put it up on Wikipedia? And yes, I believe that we can find the room to add another relevant photo.

I don't see why "and further aid walking on snow" was removed from the toe tufts sentence (again, the removal was not discussed), so I added it back in. Clarity is removed without those extra words. It's in the reference. Quote: "Why tufts on the feet? Same reason, it gives you more structure on the foot for support on the snow. It's like putting on a snowshoe. Tufts are light, yet they distribute the weight on a larger surface so the feet don't push down in the snow. And, of course, for warmth as well."

The revised sentence on ear furnishings was unclear and made it sound like they were optional, whereas to my knowledge they are not (unlike lynx tips, ruffs, and ear muffs which are all optional). I changed it back to my original sentence but added the words "ear furnishings" with a reference to the Iams' Glossary of Cat Terms.

I added the words "lion-like" back to the mention of the ruff. As with raccoon-like tails, this is a common description and clarifies the text. Quote: "They may a have a ruff (like a lion’s ruff) of fur around their neck." Moved mention of lynx tips back into the optional adaptations sentence.

As I have discussed on 31 December 2008 (above): I changed the spelling of "earmuffs" to "ear muffs". I am using a combination of the photo on "Iams Cat Breed Guide - Maine Coon Cats" and Iams' "Glossary of Cat Terms" as a reference for ear muffs.

I stayed up much too late doing this. Zicoon (talk) 13:29, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I won't make any further edits to the section. I'm over this entire argument. Just to clarify my edit, the Iams reference did not state anything about "ear muffs", so it was moved. We still need a reference stating that "ear muffs" are a characteristic trait of the Maine Coon and that they are a physical adaptation to winter climates. I was unable to find anything. This is the only thing holding the article back from GA status. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 18:45, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

The Maine Coon in the photo in the Iams reference has ear muffs and this reference is presented only because you have not been happy with the multiple textual references that I have found so far. Zicoon (talk) 02:35, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Zicoon, please do not proceed to tell me what I am "happy" with or unhappy with. As another editor has pointed out, using a photo and a glossary term would be considered original research. The references that you have found so far are not reliable and I have explained why. I'm sorry if this is so disconcerting to you. And I'm sorry that the Iams reference is not reliable and did not say anything about "ear muffs". But that is not my fault. This has nothing to do with my opinions on reliable references, but about Wikipedia's policies. Since I plan on attempting to get this article to FA status, the references would be a problem. I honestly don't see why this is still an issue. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 19:02, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Zicoon, I will add my thoughts to Ms. Sarita's. Using a combination of a photo and a glossary is asking for an accusation of original research. If these "ear muffs" are so famous and common in Maine Coons, there must be a reliable source stating that somewhere... You seem to care a lot about this article, and so I would hope that you are interested in helping it to become GA and then FA status. However, this cannot be done when original research, iffy sources and fact tags are present in the article. Ms. Sarita has done a lot of very good work on this article, and it would be nice for other editors to help her, instead of simply accusing her of claiming "ownership". She is not trying to own the article, she is simply trying to improve it with good sources. Please provide a reliable, non-original research source for this claim of Maine Coons having "ear muffs", or this claim may have to be removed. Dana boomer (talk) 19:09, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

My research is not original research, but it is source-based research, which is allowed and encouraged by Wikipedia.

There are plenty of references to Maine Coons having ear muffs out there (see my 31 December 2008 discussion above for some of them), it's just that ear muffs are not explicitly mentioned in the cat show standards for Maine Coons, which most Maine Coon descriptive material is based on, and the term "ear muffs" is unknown to most people and so ear muffs tend not get explicitly mentioned but are instead lumped together with ear furnishings (often also lumped together with lynx tips and collectively referred to as ear tufts). Thus I have so far been unable to find a reference that Ms. Sarita is happy with. Incidentally there are many photos of Maine Coons with ear muffs available from sources that everyone would be happy with, including printed books on Maine Coons. As I have said previously, there is no denying that many Maine Coons have ear muffs.

Seeing that Ms. Sarita has much more time, and internet access, available than I have, and apparently much more of a willingness to work on this article than anyone else, it would be nice if Ms. Sarita would stop taking a negative approach and redirect her energies in a good way and contact some Maine Coon organizations and authorities and try to find a reference for ear muffs that is to her liking. I'm open to alternate wording in the meantime. I'd like to get this resolved amicably.

I will also continue to try to locate a source that everyone can be happy with, but I don't have anywhere close to the amount of time and resources that Ms. Sarita has. Also keep in mind that I frequently have extended periods without internet access, so please don't expect quick responses from me. Zicoon (talk) 02:35, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Since the only thing holding this article back from GA status (see the GA review below) is the earmuffs portion and its questionable ref, how about we remove it for the time being, the article gets its GA status, and when a proper reference is found, we can add it back in. If it really is a common trait and one that is recognized to be specific to the breed, then there should certainly be a reference out there to support it. Holding the article back from GA status just so a picture can be kept is just petty in my opinion. When you (or anyone else) finds a proper reference, we can add it back in, but for the benefit of this article as a whole, can we just do what is needed to get it to GA, rather than hold it back on one small detail?--Terrillja _talk 18:06, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with me, my time, or my resources. Please do not make me the scapegoat. It took me 10 minutes to conduct several Internet searches for "ear muffs" or anything similarly mentioned. I don't have as much free time as you'd think. I simply know that reliable sources, and using them correctly, are the way to go. Read WP:OR, specifically where it states, "Even with well-sourced material, however, if you use it out of context or to advance a position that is not directly and explicitly supported by the source used, you as an editor are engaging in original research..." Using an image (such as one in the Iams breed profile) and a glossary of cat-related terms together to cite "ear muffs" is a characteristic physical trait and/or a winter climate adaptation of Maine Coons, according to the original research policy, is considered original research. Neither reference specifically states "ear muffs" as being a trait of the breed. And I have yet to see a reference that states this is a trait due to the Maine Coon's adaptation to cold climates. This has nothing to do with me taking a negative approach or finding a reference that is to my liking. If you truly do wish for this information to be in the article, prepare to put in the work. I have tried to find you a reference, but was unable to, so please stop the accusations. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 19:02, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

If one of the above editors (Terrillja or Ms. Sarita) would like to remove the information in question from the article, I will be happy to pass the article to GA status. The information can of course be added back in when it is properly sourced by non-original research. Also, the picture itself doesn't have to be removed, but I would like to see the part of the caption referring to "ear muffs" removed until a source can be provided for the info in the text. Dana boomer (talk) 20:17, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

I will leave this decision up to Terrillja. I know that if I remove the information, I'm going to get chewed out for it. Hopefully this can be accomplished so the article can get its GA status and I can begin working on the PR. Thanks for everyone's input! – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 00:09, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

 Done I kept the picture, which will hopefully keep Zicoon happy, removed the Iams reference and the "ear muffs" bits and the part about lynx tips keeping the ears warm, since they just stick up. I moved the lion-like ruff up to the rest of the fur characteristics, where it makes more sense. Hopefully my edits will be satisfactory for the article to get its GA status and keep moving towards FA. As always, drop me a note on my talkpage if you have anything you need to talk to me about. --Terrillja _talk 03:58, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Native population

This indicates that native Maine Coons can no longer be used for breeding. Isn't it strange that breeders like to play up the naturalness of the breed yet the actual naturally existing Maine Coons are nothing more than mongrels from the show ring perspective.

Does the local population of Maine Coons still exist? Is the reported extinction in the 1950s based on pedigreed Maine Coons or does it take into account the native population? Same question for the polydactylism trait. When we say "the trait was almost eradicated from the breed", are we just taking about pedigrees? --Dodo bird (talk) 00:22, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

You have brought up excellent points, all of which, I believe, has been brought up in the PR (which I will try to begin working on by the end of the week). By the way, thank you for making that edit to the article. I believe the wording is now much better then what I had done in the revision. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 09:20, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

"Rectangular"??

"Maine Coons possess a rectangular body shape". What does this mean? Although some cats have longer torsos and some shorter, IMHO the degree of "rectangularity" of all cats is about the same. What's notable about Maine Coons? -- 201.37.230.43 (talk) 15:42, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

If you look at all of the breed standards listed in the infobox, you'll notice that Maine Coons are to possess a "rectangular" body shape (i.e., a long torso). I'm only going by what the sources tell me. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 16:21, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

We should either clearly say in the article what "rectangular" means in this context, or avoid using the term, or make plain in the article that "The breed standard says that MCs are to have a "rectangular" body shape", but we don't really know what that means. (I suppose that my concern comes under WP:JARGON - if we use some odd term that specialists understand, we should define it for the general reader.) -- 201.37.230.43 (talk) 19:18, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

I honestly don't see how WP:JARGON comes into play here. The word "rectangle" isn't a subject-specific term. The average reader knows what a rectangle looks like and I'm sure has enough common sense to know how the shape would pertain to a feline. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 20:30, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Male Maine Coon?

In the Origin section of this article, there's a picture of a beautiful Maine Coon (File:Maine_Coon_2.JPG), the 'problem' is that according to the description, this is a male cat, but its coat looks like it's a (somewhat diluted) tortoiseshell pattern, which means that this cat is female. Can someone throw some light on this subject?
200.26.173.114 (talk) 12:13, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I'd really like to know how you came to the conclusion that the cat in question is a tortoiseshell. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 14:47, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi. I can see a light orange (or cream) color in many parts of his/her fur, specially in his/her upper lips, s/he has black color in an apparently tabby pattern and white in his/her chest. So, I assume it's a tortie or at least something similar :P
200.26.173.114 (talk) 18:03, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

These reasons are not enough to conclude that the cat is a tortoiseshell. The markings on the head alone are classic signs of a tabby. The person who uploaded the photo is the one who took the picture and added the caption in the article. It'd be pretty far-fetched to assume that the uploader was unaware of the gender of this cat. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 18:35, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Pardon me, but if the cat presents these three colors, it has to be a calico or a tortie, which means it's female. In order to be a male and a tortie, the cat must be a chimera or must carry an extra X chromosome (Klinefelter's syndrome), which is very unlikely (or at least statistics say so). Also, the person who uploaded the picture isn't necessarily the person who 'owns' the cat or takes care of him/her. In fact, there's a possibility that the person who took the picture and the user who uploaded it could be different people. Cheers ^^
200.26.173.114 (talk) 18:50, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Pardon me, but there's no need to get snippy. I am not arguing with you on the fact that tortoiseshell cats are overwhelmingly female, so I don't understand why you brought the genetics argument into play. A cat possessing cream/"light orange", white, and black does not mean that it is a tortoiseshell. My cat has all three of these colors but he is a classic tabby and most certainly a male. Please read the source listing of the file where it states, Own work by uploader. The fact of the matter is this: You do not have enough evidence to state that the cat is indeed a tortoiseshell. However, since you seem adamant about being correct, I will change the captioning to gender-neutral terminology. Hopefully, this will satisfy you. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 19:15, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

(outdent)Indeed, this solves this problem. However, the problem of your arrogant, impolite and rude attitude is one that doesn't seems to have solution. I won't lower myself to your level and insult you (or try to) since I'm not here for confrontations but to make this great page even better. I hope you learn what proper manners are and what a debate is and isn't. May you have a good day and a good life and thank you for solving this. Farewell my fellow cat lover/enthusiast =]
200.26.173.114 (talk) 19:46, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Farewell to you, as well. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 20:02, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

The Viking Connection

Can anyone please come up with one single, concrete piece of evidence to support the notion that the Vikings brought cats with them when they settled in Canada? Where is this information taken from? Any reliable sources? Facts? Or is it just conjecture? Wild fantasies? Facts please! Facts! And, yes, I know that the Maine Coon really, really looks like the Norwegian Forest Cat, but that doesn't mean that they were brought over from Norway in the 11th century! --Grumpy444grumpy (talk) 09:43, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Here you go! Also, realize that the article never states that the connection between Maine Coons and the Vikings is a fact. Only a theory. Just thought I'd point that out. Cheers! – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 15:21, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it states that it is a theory generally accepted by cat-breeders, but this theory is based on what? Superficial physical attributes? If so, I think, for the sake of clarity that the article should state so. Ultimately this should be an interesting one for all those clever DNA chaps out there if anything ;) --Grumpy444grumpy (talk) 15:37, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

The fact that this is a theory is referenced, with 4 sources. ::shrugs:: If I rewrite the article to state something along the lines of, "This theory is based on superficial physical similarities," then I would have to find another reference to cite that. Doesn't make much sense when this "clarification problem" was never brought up in either the GA or peer reviews. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 16:18, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

And of course, if nobody questions a statement it must be true? So it remains then, a spurious theory based on, well nothing ::shrugs twice:: You don't have any problems with people asking critical questions about an article, do you? --Grumpy444grumpy (talk) 19:37, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Seeing as how I handled both the GA and peer reviews, I would say I have absolutely no problem with critiques of the article. Nor did I ever imply that "if nobody questions a statement, it must be true". :::shrugs thrice::: The sources are not citing that the MC/Viking connection is a fact, nor does the article state that this is a fact. The sources are citing that this theory exists, that this theory is the most acceptable one among breeders, and why it is the most acceptable one. I honestly don't see what the problem is. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 20:18, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

OK, I yield. Peace? :) --Grumpy444grumpy (talk) 17:14, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Cosey?

Is the information about her and her picture really necessary to the article? I would imagine that most people come to this page to find general information about Maine Coons...not for information about a cat show that happened over a hundred years ago. If anything, that information should be moved to a page about the history of cat shows, or something of the sort. I think it's unnecessary to get into such detail about the cat and her owner. The picture of the 3 show-quality Maine Coons is more supplementary to the article than an old antique-looking photograph of a cat in 1895. Wo0ter08 (talk) 21:21, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Do you realize that Cosey is a Maine Coon?--Dodo bird (talk) 22:55, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

The Maine Coon has a long history with cat shows. This history is part (if not most of) the reason why the breed almost disappeared with the introduction of more "exotic" (if you will) cat breeds. Cosey, who happens to be a Maine Coon, was the first cat to win a national North American cat show. I think mentioning her is important in the history section of the breed, as well as in an article about cat shows. We cannot assume that people only visit the Maine Coon article to only find general information about the breed, and thus expunge information that is tied to the breed's history. If you feel that information from over 100 years ago is unnecessary, then, by logic, we should remove most of the information in the "History" section. I could care less about the image. You two can work that out. – Ms. Sarita ^Confer 04:32, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Ownership

I have been reading the discussion on this page and it does seem like that Ms. Sarita is trying to own the page.--68.19.210.175 (talk) 23:47, 15 May 2009 (UTC)