Talk:Common loon

Re: Horror Film Sound Effects?

J. Michael Reiter here, again. Which Horror Films has the Loon's distinctive Laughter appeared in as a sound effect? User:Michael_Reiter

Should we not be consistant at using either diver or loon throughout the article? Right now they are both used throughout.say1988 01:45, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

I've removed the only superfluous loon. All the other are necessary, to give the NAm species and family names, or because they are part of local alterantive names. jimfbleak 05:34, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Name

Shouldn't the article reflect the name given by the AOU (Common Loon) as opposed the European one? Most of this species breeds and winters in North America. Why then is the article's title and content based on the European name?

unfortunately there is a world beyond the USA. This species breeds in Europe, in Iceland, and is a common wintering bird on the Atlantic Coast and to a lesser extent inland. The agreed policy WP:MOS#National_varieties_of_English is that unless an article is about something specifically American (eg Red-tailed Hawk) the original spelling used stays. jimfbleak 18:08, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

That's sounds like a rather arrogant position to take when supposedly countering US arrogance. It's not just the Americans who use the term. It's also Canadians. [And, really, the opinion of Europeans who speak English as a second language matters on issues of English terminology? They can define things just fine in their mother tongues.] Incidentally, I think the the word "loon" comes from the Old Norse word for the bird's cry. I'm not so sure it's the original spelling even in the UK. 27 May 2007

This isn't about spelling, so your point about policy is moot. Nor is this specifically about the USA. The AOU names are accepted by more than just the USA. My point is that this is PRIMARILY a North American bird. Sure, it breeds in Iceland, but so? >95% of the population is found in North America. This IS a North American bird, for the most part. Shouldn't that be reflected in the article by using the North American name and mentioning the European name briefly, instead of using the European name and mentioning the North American one briefly? Could someone else (who hasn't made up their mind already) weigh in? 70.48.44.57 18:47, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Surely the same policy should apply to bird names as to spelling? If your argument was applied to spelling, the large majority of English speakers (including many in N Am) use "colour" rather than "color", suggesting that that spelling should be used for all articles not restricted to US topics.

Perhaps more to the point, I don't accept that it's only the breeding range (which to remind you does include Europe) that matters. There is no doubt that GND is a common bird in Europe. On your argument, species like Brent Goose, Bewick's Swan and Whooper Swan shouldn't count as British because none of them breed in the UK, despite internationally important numbers wintering in Britain. Incidentally, doesn't the GND spend less than half the year in its breeding range?

What English-speaking countries in the Old World use the AOL name? (Don't go by Avibase lists which use US spelling and names globally). The UK, Ireland and South Africa at least use "European" names for most species.

jimfbleak 05:52, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

As an afterthought, I would accept that, for example, species that are rare in Europe, such as Gray Catbird should be named and spelt as per AOL. My point is that GND is a common European species. jimfbleak 05:58, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

"Common loon" gets many more Google hits than "great northern diver." It should be changed.-Cyanocittacristata 20:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Google is biased towards the US. Common Loon redirects to GND, and the NA name is mentioned in the first line, so there is little chance for confusion. (I suppose we could put it at Gavia immer and be done except that violates the naming conventions. Dsmdgold 01:24, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

If you wish the agreed policy WP:MOS#National_varieties_of_English to be changed, that's the way to go about it. GND is a common bird in Europe (although the MOS policy doesn't actually specify that names used depend on proportions between US/European areas anyway), it winters in large numbers, and is seen regularly well inland. Google is bound to have a NAm slant because that's where all the computers are. There are cases where the American spelling is more appropriate, such as Gray Catbird, where it's also used by the British and Irish authorities, but none of the divers has an exclusively US/Canada breeding and wintering range. Jimfbleak 06:26, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Ask.com and Yahoo! Search also give more results for "common loon." And if Google is biased towards the US because there are more computers, that means there are more PEOPLE, and so more people know it as the common loon. "Cricket," much to my chagrin, goes to the sport, not the insect, because there is more on google about it. The common loon is PRIMARILY a North American bird. I'm not saying it does not occur in other places. But it is primarily a NAm bird.-Cyanocittacristata 20:49, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Interesting idea, computers = people. Dsmdgold 03:19, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The MOS policy says nothing about the number of people being relevant - if you want to do the numbers game, all of wikipedia should be in British English since there are more speakers of that version worldwide (if you doubt that, you are forgetting the Indian subcontinent). And GND both breeds and winters in Europe, so it's not exclusively or almost exclusively American, which is what the policy says Jimfbleak 06:14, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Of course you're forgetting the loon's cultural status in North America. It is a very iconic bird, especially in Canada. As mentioned in the article it has official status in both Ontario and Minnesota, appears on various currency and in various First Nations legends. Can you say that the Great Northern Diver holds this same distinction in Europe? And let's look at the places it lives that also speak English: Ireland & the UK vs. Canada & the US: yeah, I think more people who live along side it refer to it as the Common Loon.--Lairor (talk) 06:13, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

It's on the Canadian dollar coin (known there as the "loonie"). While the common loon overwinters in North America and Europe, it breeds predominantly in North America (global population of 580,000 birds, with roughly less than 5000 pairs breeding in UK or Ireland) [1]. Quoting that source, "Although the size of the European population could render it susceptible to the risks affecting small populations, it is marginal to a much larger non-European population." Globally, it's arguably (based largely on its iconic status in Canada) more frequently referred to as the common loon. The association with Canada is strong enough that it would also probably be appropriate to have the rest of the article conform to standards of Canadian English. (I am not Canadian.) Does the loon have a competing association with Europe or some European English-speaking country? Quaternion (talk) 04:26, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

GND breeds and winters in Europe, the Wikipedia policy is not based on numbers, or even on cultural associations. As a way forward, why not take this discussion to Wikipedia:WikiProject Birds, lots of Americans and Europeans there? Jimfbleak (talk) 06:57, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Good idea. I've moved this discussion to WikiProject Birds. Thanks. Quaternion (talk) 13:49, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

The problem in the article now is that if the bird is present in significant enough numbers in Europe that "Common Loon" shouldn't be used in the title, that fact does not appear clearly at the beginning of the article. Instead, we are told (1) that the apparently secondary name of "Common Loon" is used in North America, and (2) that its breeding range is almost entirely in North America. Not until the third paragraph do we see mention of populations living in Europe. A non-birding reader (like myself) will read this and wonder "Why isn't the article called Common Loon?" Since the strong feeling of those who support the current article title is due to the bird's presence in Europe, shouldn't that fact be a little more prominent? And if not, that would be a good reason for changing the article title. --Ken Gallager (talk) 17:05, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

There is a move at present to adopt Gill & Wright (2006) common names both on Wikipedia and more widely. Under their proposal, the GND would become Great Northern Loon, so if the page is eventually moved, presumably it would be to that title. However, it's a bit premature as yet. Jimfbleak (talk) 17:17, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

It's also worth mentioning that the map on this page only shows North America. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.129.51.87 (talk) 18:54, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Why is it that the Loon article goes by Loon, while the common loon goes by Great Northern Diver? If you're going to force one to use the European naming, then what of the other?Annihilatron (talk) 17:13, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Does Wikipedia only demand consistency within articles (and not between related articles)? In some articles "loon" is the main term used and in this one "diver" is the main one being used.

On a separate note, I did browse through WP:MOS#National_varieties_of_English, as jimfbleak suggested, but a search for "original spelling" only resulted in non-helpful hits. If it is true that "unless an article is about something specifically American (eg Red-tailed Hawk) the original spelling used stays," (jimfbleak), then why isn't the Primary color page the "Primary Colour" page instead?

What I did find on WP:MOS#National_varieties_of_English that seemed particularly relevant was the section on "Strong national ties to a topic". I would say that Canada has strong national ties to this topic (see previous comments from other users). So perhaps Canadian English should be used, eh?

In the end, as long as "common loon" redirects here, and it is mentioned in the first paragraph, it really isn't that big of a deal. A "lay-person" will be able to figure it out, which is what Wikipedia is all about. Adammanifold (talk) 21:30, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Wow. Should definitely rename this article. I have never, in 30 years of living around this bird, heard someone refer to it by any other name than "common loon." It's official name is "common loon," and it is referred to as such both in common speech and in literature related to the species. The province of Ontario refers to ths bird (the official bird of Ontario) in government literature as "the common loon." In fact, the article "loon" itself refers to this species as "the common loon." There is no reason that this article should have any other title.69.60.237.4 (talk) 19:49, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

and in the UK I've never heard it referred to as the Common Loon, the official name here is Great Northern Diver, so arguing from where you live is unhelpful. This is not a specifically NAm topic, and was written in BE originally jimfbleak (talk) 06:25, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

The fact that 300 million+ people refer to it as "common loon" and 60 million call it "great northern diver" says a lot about what the title of the article should be. More people refer to it as "common loon." The majority of references for this article call it "common loon." The AOU refer to it as "common loon." There are 408000 results for the Google search "common loon," and 272000 results for "great northern diver." Do you have a VALID reason why this article's current title should remain?69.60.237.4 (talk) 18:12, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Arguing from populations is nonsense (apart from the numbers being incorrect). If we are going to do that, let's have "colour", "grey" and "favourite" please - far more people use these spellings than the NAm spellings (BE isn't only used in the UK - Ireland, Australia, South Africa, India, Pakistan, Nigeria, many other commonwealth countries, estimated number of speakers outside NAm about 700 million). The AOU uses American spelling, what a surprise - the BOU uses British spelling! There are more computers in NAM than elsewhere, so the Google count is irrelevant - almost any search will bring American spelling in the majority. Unfortunately for US cultural imperialism, the Wikipedia policy is not

1. I have lived in America for 30 years and and only my spelling is valid
2. America organisations use American spelling, so only that spelling is valid
3. I think that there are more AE speakers than BE speakers, because I only know one country that uses BE. Therefore everyone should use AE because only numbers count.
4. OK, I'm wrong about the numbers, but only the US matters anyway

Unfortunately, there is an valid agreed policy. Either stick to that or get the policy changed, not make up your own chauvinist rules. jimfbleak (talk) 05:59, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Have you noticed, jimfbleak, that you're the only one defending the current title, while everyone else who has posted to this discussion disagrees with you? The common loon is the official bird of Canada's most populous province, and of an American state. It appears on Canadian currency. This is not a spelling issue, but a naming issue. Even the article states that this is primarily a North American bird. Since the bird is so well-beloved by the Canadians, and it's such a central part of their national iconography, it seems like the Canadian name should be used primarily. It seems that way to everyone except you--read the above discussion, and it's clear that you're simply being stubborn. 99.150.119.209 (talk) 02:41, 18 June 2009 (UTC)