Talk:Mitochondrial Eve

MRCA versus IAP

The article states: No contemporary of Mitochondrial Eve or Y-chromosomal Adam is an ancestor of only a subset of people alive today, because both of them lived much longer ago than the identical ancestors point.

However, this is not possible, as the IAP is necessariy further in the past than the MRCA - as correctly stated in the article on identical ancestors point: In genetic genealogy, the identical ancestors point (IAP) is that point in a given population's past where each individual then alive turned out to be either the ancestor of every individual alive now, or to have no living descendants at all. This point lies further in the past than the population's most recent common ancestor (MRCA).

I have deleted the paragraph, because it is wrong, and I cannot immediately see how to make sense of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.72.95.45 (talk) 22:51, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

MRCA lived 3000 BP?

The article states that the MRCA of all humans (not M. Eve or Y. Adam) lived 3000 BP. But the land bridge to the Americas was crossed over 15,000 BP and there was no significant contact between the old and new worlds from atleast a couple thousand years after that until 1492 (vikings contact with northern tribes don't count I don't think). There are Amerindians that have no European descent right? So how can they have a MRCA in common with Europeans AFTER the land bridge was crossed but before 1492? I can't fathom how that is possible? Brentt 23:38, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I know. I found it hard to believe myself at first. But see the Time Estimate section in Most recent common ancestor. Dawkins also talked about this in the Ancestor's Tale. Fred Hsu 03:05, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually the Viking influence would be very relevant to the Amerindian / MRCA date question. It would only take one cross-breed left behind.... --Michael C. Price ^talk 08:30, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

This makes no sense, how can every human on earth have the same matrilineal ancestor stretching back only 3,000 years, this has to be an error. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.125.69.227 (talk) 09:40, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

In any case, the section on this subject was woefully out of shape and poorly written, almost incomprehensibly so. I've tried to correct some wording to make the point more obvious, but if I've munged anything up, someone should feel free to revert. JWAbrams (talk) 14:37, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

The information about the MRCA living 3,000 years ago is woefully taken out of context, and I recommend that it be deleted from this article. (The poor explanation will also confuse young earth creationists who will almost certainly misinterpret it as legitimizing their views about a young earth.) First of all, the MRCA talked about in the Wiki is the MRCA of the *mitochondrial* DNA. The MRCA talked about in Nature has nothing to do with Mitochondrial DNA. It appears that the MRCA talked about in Nature is the most recent living person who all humans on earth could claim as an ancestor (according to their computer mating model). That person was most definitely not the source of all humanity's mitochondrial DNA, and would've contributed virtually nothing to the genome of each individual human being. (To use an example: All my cousins and I have a MRCA of two generations ago - we all share a pair of grandparents. However, the MRCA of our mitochondrial DNA is much more than two-generations back because we didn't all inherit our mitochrondrial DNA from that grandmother.) So, it's confusing and misleading to jump back and forth with different types of MRCA, as this article does. I would also add that no professor or scientist would ever make the mistake of mixing these things together like this if they were writing an article about the subject.

Nominated most ancient common ancestor for deletion

Someone created a new article called Most ancient common ancestor. Notice that it is ancient, not recent. It appears to be a new name coined by the author without research backing (i.e. original research). I nominated that page for deletion. Please visit Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Most ancient common ancestor if you wish to participate in the discussion. I am posting this message in this discussion page because the topic in question is closely related to this article. Again, please note that I am not nominating the Most Recent Common Ancestor article for deletion; I am nominating the newly created Most Ancient Common Ancestor. Fred Hsu 05:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Confused paragraph

A paragraph has been added to the misconceptions section:

Suppose Mitochondrial Eve lived before the identical ancestor point. Then, she would have to live with some people that are not ancestors of all the population and who have passed-on their own mitochondrial dna to their descent up to now. As such Mitochondrial Eve can not be considered the Most Recent Common Ancestor for Mitochondrial DNA because a subset of the common descent will not bear its mitochondrial DNA. Note that this reasoning can be applied to all genes, which means that a gene-specific MRCA has to be older than the identical ancestor point.

It seems rather confused to me.--Michael C. Price ^talk 15:07, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I removed it. 'Ancestors' referred to in identical ancestors point are ancestors via both paternal and maternal lines. An ancestor in this case may actual leave no gene from himself/herself today because of meiosis and recombination. mtEve is defined strictly by mitochondria inheritance, on the other hand. I can't fathom how one can produce an argument based on identical ancestor point and mtEve based on this logic. But I could be wrong. But until a better paragraph is written and reference is cited, I don't think we should have the above in the article. Fred Hsu 15:38, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I just moved the sub-section on identical ancestors point in Most_recent_common_ancestor#MRCA_of_all_living_humans to a different place. Hopefully this will make it more clear. Fred Hsu 15:55, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Further clarified this in Identical ancestors point. Fred Hsu 16:03, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I though an "absurd reasonning" could clarify the timeline between Mitochondrial Eve and Identical Ancestor Point. I will double check what I wrote and try to have a clearer version. --Donvinzk 20:00, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you talk through changes here first, before altering the article.--Michael C. Price ^talk 21:32, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I will for sure since all previous edits have been immediately reverted. As for the last one, it was just to give a small explanation to the assertion "contemporary woman to mitochondrial eve can not have matrilineal descent to current population", which I did not grasp at first and though I could help others similar to me. I wanted to use "contraposée" and "absurd reasoning" which are French barbarism since I can not find the English term.--Donvinzk 00:21, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Proof by contradiction is the term.--Donvinzk 00:21, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I see where you are coming from. I'll try to clarify the section. --Michael C. Price ^talk 00:25, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Obviously, you meant to improve the article. We appreciate that. The article already states "every mtDNA in every living person is derived from hers..." in the lead section. If every mtDNA in every person is from mtMRCA, then obviously no other contemporary woman of mtMRCA could have passed down her mtDNA. As MichaelCPrice said, your absurd reasoning isn't helping in this case. We can add the same absurd reasoning to pretty much every single wikipedia article. Notice how the paragraph rigth above the on you last edited talks explicitly about how contemporary women of mtMRCA could have left descendants today, but her descendants will NOT have her mtDNA. Fred Hsu 00:28, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it's mostly a language issue -- I won't add anything unless it looks quite necessary. But it has to be admitted that some parts of the article do require close reading; but then it is a complex subject to outsiders. --Michael C. Price ^talk 00:38, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

No offense for me. I might understand things better argumenting by contradiction than by direct proof, and this does not mean I should edit every single articles to fulfill this need. However, it is a complex subject, I am an outsider to the field, and I think the article might need some "graphic" example, I'll share ideas here if I think of something. (And, by the way, my argument was a tautology, not a non sequitur ;-) )

Correction accepted.  :-) --Michael C. Price ^talk 01:02, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Michael, thank you for copyediting. I think, however, you may want to preserve this line: "Eventually, only one single lineage remains which includes all mothers alive today and their male and female children.". That paragraph talks about how females pass mtDNA to daugheters. Sons are dead ends as far as mtDNA is concerned. This sentence is explicitly saying that the 'last' generation of mothers pass the same mtDNA down to living people at the present. Fred Hsu 01:24, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

The previous wording seemed to leave open the possibility that we know of humans-alive-today-with-deceased-mothers with different mtDNA. Now I know that it is extremely unlikely (but not impossible) -- but the wording seemed to suggest it was a known fact. So it should be written "Eventually, only one single lineage remains which includes all mothers alive today and their male and female children and all mothers not alive today and their male and female children who are alive today." -- so we might as well just say "everybody alive today". --Michael C. Price ^talk 01:43, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

mt DNA statement

The statement

Unlike mtDNA, which is outside the nucleus, genes in nuclear DNA become mixed because of genetic recombination, and therefore we can be statistically less certain about their origins.

seems wrong. Whilst mtDNA is outside the nucleus this has nothing to do with recombination (a single mitochondrian contains multiple copies of mtDNA and undergoes recombination to maintain its integrity). Thus it is not the recombination that is the source of the mixing but the fact that we inherit two nuclear alleles, one from each parent, whereas we inherit mtDNA from only one parent.--Michael C. Price ^talk 01:02, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that paragraph can be made clearer: the trouble with tracking nuclear DNA is caused by both meiosis and Chromosomal crossover/Genetic recombination. See better phrasing at Most_recent_common_ancestor#Patrilineal_and_matrilineal_ancestry. Fred Hsu 01:32, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Michael, I see that you have also enhanced Mitochondrion. As I said in previous comment, the difficulties with tracking nuclear DNA is not only due to the 1/2 chance of inheritance from either parent. Yes, that makes it more difficult, but you can still infer statistically about what would happen in a long period of time. But with further recombination, the task becomes exponentially more difficult. I have read it somewhere, and perhaps I'll find references to it. I don't think it is wise to simply drop recombination from the article. Fred Hsu 04:57, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

But the tracking difficulty with nDNA can't be due to recombination per se, since mtDNA also recombines. I've updated the description about recombination at Mitochondrial DNA and mentioned it here. --Michael C. Price ^talk 10:07, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Wanted edit

In Science, 2. January 1998, the article "Calibrating the Mitochondrial Clock" refers to evidence that the 140 000 years referred to in this article are not so certain. Could someone please make this article a bit more balanced on this point? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gubbanoa (talk • contribs) 21:07, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to add the point yourself, but make sure you cite your source. WLU 21:08, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

You are right about me not putting the reference in the text and two wrongs do not make a right. However, I think it is a shame you took out critisism of the weak claim you have left unquoted. I cannot see why. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.204.181.130 (talk) 10:19, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

If you are very motivated, you should edit it with proper citation. Or at least provide an URL to make it easier for people to help you. At the moment, Mitochondrial_Eve#Eve_and_the_Out-of-Africa_theory should provide some of the answers. Yes, mitochondrial DNA alone is not enough to support African origin of 'human race'. However, it is good enough for the African origin of 'mtEve', as long as you keep in mind that mtEve is nothing special (there are thousands of other ways to trace common ancestry by different gene pathways). I'll try to find the article you are talking about when I have more time. Fred Hsu 03:22, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Mitochondria in sperm

Someone inserted these (in bold):

[quote]We know about Eve because of mitochondrial organelles that are passed only from mother to offspring. (Strictly speaking, the sperm do bring some mitochondria to the egg, but their contribution amounts to at most about 0.01% of the fertilized egg's total, so is normally ignored.) Each mitochondrion contains Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA). [/quote]

This is actually not quite right. One of Sykes book actually talks about how sperm mitochondria are destroyed by the egg or later in the embryo. I don't have time to look it up right now. But in any case, the main article on Mitochondrial DNA already talks about this. The section in MtEve actually links to it as 'main article'. There is no need to interrupt the flow of this paragraph with such details, in my view. I reverted the change. Fred Hsu (talk) 23:39, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it was Sykes', Seven Daughters of Eve, that refutes the notion that some mtDNA comes from the father. Says that more detailed studies failed to show any such paternal effect. --Michael C. Price ^talk 20:30, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Reference on date of Mitochondrial Eve

TalkOrigins has an interesting short article on the date of Mitochondrial Eve, with references. - http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB621_1.html "created 2004-2-26" --
"Revised studies of all of the mtDNA ... placed the age of the most recent common mitochondrial ancestor at 171,500 +/- 50,000 years ago."
-- Writtenonsand (talk) 22:32, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion to clarify opening sentence.

I suggest adding the qualification "via the mitochondrial DNA pathway" to the opening sentence, so it reads:

Mitochondrial Eve (mt-mrca) is the name given by researchers to the woman who is defined as the matrilineal most recent common ancestor (MRCA), via the mitochondrial DNA pathway, for all currently living humans.

Para 3 contains this qualification, and expands on it. Omitting the qualification in the opening sentence is potentially confusing (at least it was for me, having come to this page after reading the page on MRCA). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.41.169.168 (talk) 07:58, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

The word "matrilineal" (a link to another article) essentially means the same thing. So either we keep it the way it is, or we drop "matrilineal" and replace it with the longer qualification sentence. I vote for the shorter version, but I understand how how reader may miss this one word. Fred Hsu (talk) 16:13, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Fred. The problem with the clarification is that it is redundant -- the matrilineal ancestor is, by definition, the mt contributor. A reader may think that these must be distinct concepts since they are both mentioned, which will really confuse them. The sentence as it is (now) looks fine.

I suggest the deletion of for over a hundred thousand years from the 2nd sentence, because mtDNA has been passed down for well over a billion years, not just 100,000. --Michael C. Price ^talk 20:27, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Note to user: MichaelCPrice

Howdy -- I'm the author of the "concrete example," and I wanted to see if you thought a diagram might be better than a narrative? I have a sort of love affair (scientifically speaking) w/mitochondria and the whole dynamic of mitochondrial DNA is so fascinating, especially w/r/t "Mitochondrial Eve," that I want badly to make the notion of matrilineal descendence of m. DNA crystal clear, even to the most unscientific-minded. Sadly, though, and as much as I also love Wikipedia, I think this is one of those instances where words muddy instead of enlighten. I'm thinking about making a simple flow-chart-type thingie (via graphics software) to illustrate both the matrilineal line of mitochondrial DNA *and* how it's possible that Eve could have had contemporaries whose m. DNA was not passed on as Eve's was, but whose regular DNA *was*. I think that point is probably the basis for most laymen's confusion, and I think that ,as a result, it's at that point where the whole premise might lose its impact.

So I'll make a little graphic in the next few days & post it and you (and everybody else watching this page) can take a look and tell me what you think, yes?

cheers, Sugarbat (talk) 17:27, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I hope you didn't mind me removing the concrete example you gave, but I found myself getting lost in the details. Anyway, glad to see that you took it positively: diagrams are always a great idea -- a picture paints a thousand words and all that -- so go right ahead. The concept definitely creates a lot of misconceptions for the layman, and anything that clarifies this is good.--Michael C. Price ^talk 20:17, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

3000 y ago

is it so difficult to read fool sentences? I hope the books quoted (whose are in deleted paragraph) are misquoted and not based on this '3000 years' false assumption. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.201.241.2 (talk) 03:10, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Calibrating the Mitochondrial Clock

I took out "yet based on the newly calibrated Mitochondrial clock she is only but 6000 years old." part in the article. According to

Calibrating the Mitochrondrial Clock [1], the 6000 year part is a part that "nobody believes" and that experiments haven't been done in a large enough subset.

This piece of text was cut / paste to try and sneak creationist credibility into the article --SeventhCycle (talk) 00:03, 12 January 2009 (UTC)SeventhCycle

Uhmmmmm.... it said "citation needed" so I looked it up and posted a citation along with information taken from a credible source. Yes, it is true that nobody believes the results cause it doesn't fit the "expected" result, but that is the results of the Mitochrondrial Clock. I've included the disagreement in the next sentence with a citation which talks about it. If you wish to add further details of the disagreement you may, but don't remove the results. Potatoeist

Since it's an area of needed expansion, I went ahead and moved it to a separate section of it's own, titled "Mitochondrial Clock." Potatoeist January 12, 2009 —Preceding undated comment was added at 20:00, 12 January 2009 (UTC).

Utter Rot, for Homo sapiens she was not.

The variance in physical parameters in the 'races' of the human 'species' clearly indicate parallel evolutions with some very recent hybridizing, as seen in many other animals. For any species except humans, a variation in average height of in excess of 20%, combined with significant difference in physical prowess (consider how the more globalized, less culture-specific Olympic sports clearly dominated by African males and Slavic women - unlike intellect, this is a product of nature, not nurture!), given good nutrition for both populations, is grounds for considering them different. In other words, who ever said our common ancestor was of homo sapiens?! If it indeed exists, Mitochondrial Eve is most likely a higher ape. Political correctness is making us hypocrites. What we are observing with globalization is clearly the mixing of several different Homo species, not the divergence of one, as evidenced by highly mixed-race communities ending up at a mocha-skinned, dark-haired, dark-and-slightly-slanted-eyed, average height common denominator. The human race (Homo sapiens), in the common ancestry with everyone sense propagated by political correctness, as such exists in Cuba or Hawaii, at the convergence point of the different races. The politicized idea of common ancestry and a common human race is great for peace and tolerance, but suffers from being untrue: neither the pale blue-eyed blond Scandinavian, nor the dark-skinned, dark-eyed, dark-haired Congolese are Homo sapiens in the PC sense. Now, if they intermix, their great-grandchildren just might be. NOTE: this written by someone not matching any common denominator, in appearance, build, or ability, thus not exactly Homo sapiens under his own definition, and therefore clearly not using these views to preach discrimination. Instead, I see this as a time to recognize and celebrate difference, rather than try to continue mixing up the concepts of legal equality and genetic sameness. 83.167.100.243 (talk) 12:55, 11 February 2009 (UTC)Adieu

the above is, as the section title indicates, utter rot. "the mixing of several different Homo species" is already a contradiction in terms, since by definition separate species don't mix. ME is estimated to have lived about 140 kya. Homo sapiens is estimated to have appeared about 130 kya. These figures are within each other's margin of error. Thus, it is anyone's guess whether ME should properly be classified as narrowly pre-sapiens, or narrowly sapiens. --dab (𒁳) 20:33, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Mitochondrial Eve/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

I feel that this article (promoted in 2005) has too much emphasis on popular perceptions, and the "Academic investigation" section is too poorly sourced (in breadth not quality, Nature is fine) for a GA by today's standards. There are also sizeable passages with no obvious source—the list of sources with no inline citation being quite long. Xasodfuih (talk) 14:32, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

No improvements since this reassessment began more than a week ago, so I'm demoting this article. Xasodfuih (talk) 08:05, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Mitochondrial Eve lived longer ago than the MRCA of ALL HUMANITY?

The introduction states "[Mitochondrial Eve] necessarily lived at least as long, though likely much longer, ago than the MRCA of all humanity." I don't understand how this can be true, but perhaps it just has to do with the confusing terminology in this article.

Mitochondrial Eve (ME) is the matrilineal MRCA of all humans ALIVE TODAY. But the MRCA of ALL HUMANITY would by definition be an ancestor of ME herself (she was human, correct?). Therefore the MRCA of all humanity must be older than ME, right?

Restated another way:
1. The MRCA of all humanity is the MRCA of all humans who have ever lived.
2. Mitochondrial Eve was a human.
3. Therefore, the MRCA of all humanity is an ancestor of ME.
4. Ancestors live before their descendants.
5. Therefore, the MRCA of all humanity is older than ME. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.21.219.163 (talk) 17:18, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

No. Evidently the article is not as clear as it should be. The matrilineal MRCA is "harder" (much harder) title to occupy than just the plain old MRCA because all the lines have to be purely matrilineal for the former. Hence they converge much further back in time. --Michael C. Price ^talk 19:46, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

people often fail to grok that "mrca" always means "mrca(t)", i.e. time dependence is implicit in the term. I did hope this was made sufficiently clear at the mrca article. ME (i.e. mt-mrca, meaning her mitochondria are the mrca of everyone's mitochondria today) is of course a common ancestor. Just like Y-Adami is also a common ancestor, and a more recent one than ME at that, hence the "most recent" common ancestor must be more recent than Y-Adam (or, in theory, identical to Y-Adam, but that's astronomically unlikely). --dab (𒁳) 20:26, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

According to the identical ancestors point article, MRCA existed 2000-5000 years ago. Shashamula (talk) 00:14, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I know, but that is just the result of a simulation, not of any measurement taken in the real world. --dab (𒁳) 15:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Do we need a Pop Culture section

Really? Why would you want to put a spoiler for the very last episode of a popular television show for any poor biology student trying to do some studying? Honestly. 99.241.82.85 (talk) 03:32, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I don't think this sort of article should have a pop culture section. Wood also had this situation. --Mosquitopsu (talk) 14:45, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

I seem to recall Mitochondrion(Eve) having a popular culture section in the past. The history proves otherwise although. Anyhow, I see no harm in referencing Mitochondrial Eve to popular culture. I can recall several references in film, literature and video games. As well as some that have used it as the primary theme. Someone looking for works with this theme would, no doubt, appreciate a compiled list. --Redhood (talk) 20:04, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

removed utterly pointless Battlestar Galactica reference —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.117.27.57 (talk) 01:39, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

"Continued edit war over Battlestar Galactica reference". There, fixed that for you. Let's work this out here for consensus first instead of fighting it out in the article. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 04:51, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Cut a bunch - we don't need the whole story, those interested can go to the fiction article. Fiction header more descriptive. Vsmith (talk) 12:09, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

You wouldn't add to the log cabin page "In BSG, we saw the spot where xxxxx was going to build his log cabin", in the suicide page you wouldn't add "In BSG, xxxx made the decision to take his own life because...", and on and on. Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a playground for Battlestar Galactica fanwank. 24.117.27.57 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:51, 22 March 2009 (UTC).

Hey mister unsigned, we get it, you didn't like BSG. Now get over yourself and stop deleting things just because of your personal preference. If you'd notice, they're asking for a GENERAL CONSENSUS before it is deleted. You, alone, do not make a consensus. Theroguex (talk) 15:14, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I watched every single episode - loved the show. That has no bearing on whether this article needs fanboys screwing up the place. Perhaps I'll go through all Wikipedia articles detailing how they all relate to Babylon 5. How about I go edit the Tenancy articles and shit them up with how Captain Sheridan had to get around a newly imposed rent increase by reallocating 60 credits a week from the military readiness budget... blah blah blah". That's the level of usefulness this BSG reference is at. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.117.27.57 (talk • contribs) 16:03, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Please read WP:CIVIL and WP:POINT. That said, I agree that the trivia does not belong in the article. Vsmith (talk) 16:15, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Why not? It attests to the concept's notability, and mirrors similar sections in other scientific articles. --Michael C. Price ^talk 16:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

The BSG characters also used guns that fired projectiles. Should we add a BSG reference into those articles also? Let's do our best to change Wikipedia into Lostpedia24.117.27.57 (talk) 17:25, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

No need to be sarcastic. Can you make your point civilly? It's much more likely to get consensus that way. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 17:32, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

You know, this is why schools don't allow students to use Wikipedia as a source. Instead of someone just removing pointless sections that have no need to be included in an article there's a huge song and dance about "consensus". More often than not this consensus is reached when one side of the argument just gives up banging their head against the brick wall that is the article's "owners" - the editors that have more time to sit in front of their monitor hitting F5. Consensus on Wikipedia generally means "the person who held out the longest". I've already been warned that my last edit will cause me to be banned from wikipedia so like I said before - go change this scientific article into TVGuide. 24.117.27.57 (talk) 17:41, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

No, WP usually IS 'just do it', but when things get controversial, we need to work things out. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 20:10, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Plenty of other scientific articles have pop culture sections. No reason why this should differ. Bear in mind that BSG will some people's first introduction to Mt Eve. --Michael C. Price ^talk 20:47, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Other science topics have rejected popular culture sections. Wood did this, for example. --Mosquitopsu (talk) 21:11, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Mitochondrial Eve is not a very common term though, unlike wood. You'll find wood (or projectile weapons) in nearly any tv show, or book, or movie. You won't find mitochondrial eve mentioned in most. For many people it might even be a concept they have never heard about. Also, it becomes a major theme in the final episode of BSG, unlike wood or guns. I'm not saying there should be an 'in popular culture' section, but if there is, than BSG deserves to be on it. And many similar articles have 'in popular culture' sections. I don't see what makes this one different. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.97.225.165 (talk) 21:20, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with wikipedia's protocols. How is consensus measured? Is there someplace you vote or is it established from the comments people make in this section? Thanks. Thespyofcharles (talk) 05:18, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Ideally, we all make reasoned arguments and, being reasonable people, we all end up agreeing with each other. Ideally, that it.... But seriously, it's not normally a vote. --Michael C. Price ^talk 07:08, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Usually, like I said, one side just gives up because they have other things to do in their lives and it's not worth the hassle to prolong the argument with Captain Cheeto-fingers that a 17 page synopsis of some anime crap doesn't need to be in an article that was supposed to be about Mount Rainier, no matter how awesome that episode where the dragon totally created Mount Rainer over a thousand years with the help from the forgotten space people was. 24.117.27.57 (talk) 01:20, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

If it's taken out that's fine with me. However, I would like to point out that this isn't exactly a household term, and it was used as a central part to a very popular show. Even if this article doesn't, I'm sure that BSG's mitochondrial eve will be referenced in all sorts of ways for years to come. Juventas (talk) 02:18, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't think mitochondrial eve has any pop cultural significance. Being mentioned in a science fiction movie doesn't make Eve a pop cultural icon. Shashamula (talk) 19:56, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

It makes it notable. Live with it. --Michael C. Price ^talk 01:38, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

There are a number of wikipedia policies, guidelines and essays that deal with such issues including

• Wikipedia:Avoid trivia sections
• Wikipedia:"In popular culture" articles
• Wikipedia:Handling trivia. Defines trivia as "information that is not important to the subject it is being presented in relation to."
• Wikipedia:Fancruft- Defined as "A term sometimes used in Wikipedia to imply that a selection of content is of importance only to a small population of enthusiastic fans of the subject in question."

In general the guidelines seem to prefer integrating trivial sections into the main body of the article. The guidelines also discourage lists of disjointed information in preference for prose. My concern about the current information is how sustainable is it. Will people be talking about mitochondrial eve's appearance in BSG in three years time. Wapondaponda (talk) 07:28, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I have moved the popular section to a separate article Mitochondrial Eve in popular culture and created a link to the article from this article. In this way this article can focus on issues directly related to mitochondrial eve, and the popular culture article can deal with pop culture. Wapondaponda (talk) 06:05, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Looks like a good idea. --Michael C. Price ^talk 09:50, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

In Pop Culture AfD

If you have an opinion on whether the pop culture entries should be maintained as a separate article then I suggest you make your views known here. --Michael C. Price ^talk 00:06, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

"Scientists Explore a Controversial Theory About Man's Origins"

I would be interested in how Newsweek managed to contort this into a "controversy", when all the Cann study did was put a rough estimate on the age of the mt-mrca. That there must be a mt-mrca to any population is clear even without such an estimate, and their estimate wasn't too far out to be controversial in any way, so I really have no idea what the title is referring to. --dab (𒁳) 14:42, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

The Cann study did create some controversy, I think it took several years before mitochondrial eve was accepted. There was the controversy relating to Paternal mtDNA transmission such as Paradise lost: Mitochondrial eve refuted . Alan Templeton also disputed Eve, as in this New York Times article. Critics Batter Proof Of an African Eve Wapondaponda (talk) 16:23, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

misconceptions section causes misconceptions

The misconceptions section implies that both mitochondrial eve and the MRCA are the same number of generations removed from every human. It's not just "do any of my 8 great grandparents overlap with any of your 8 great grandparents?" You need to compare all ancestors to find an MRCA. Things like, "do any of my 8 great grandparents overlap with any of your 32 great great great grandparents?" Similarly for ME, but you only need to compare the maternal line.

Sstrazdu (talk) 17:57, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Mt-Eve's Haplogroup (mtDNA) classification

Has the ME sequence been reconstructed, so that we can specify her Haplogroup classification? Groups L0-L6 are not extinct, according to Haplogroup L0 (mtDNA). Is Eve simply L0, or could she be L1? I suspect we can't be sure, but can only assign probabilities to her classification. --Michael C. Price ^talk 09:23, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

This article has a suggested sequence for ME. Wapondaponda (talk) 21:33, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

A great link! Thanks. Is it just my browser, or does Figure 1 display okay? --Michael C. Price ^talk 22:24, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

It works in explorer if you accept to run the scripts. Wapondaponda (talk) 22:28, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Seems off line for the present. I'll try later. Plenty of meat to chew over meanwhile. Thanks again. --Michael C. Price ^talk 22:41, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

PDF version also available.--Michael C. Price ^talk 00:11, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

mtDNA recombination and heteroplasmy invalidate assumptions used to come up with mitochondrial Eve

In reality different pieces of the mtDNA come from different individuals so there was no mitochondrial eve.

Inheritance of Mitochondrial DNA Recombinants in Double-Heteroplasmic Families: Potential Implications for Phylogenetic Analysis

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B8JDD-4RDBM6P-B&_user=10&_coverDate=02%2F28%2F2007&_alid=928554744&_rdoc=4&_fmt=high&_orig=mlkt&_cdi=43612&_sort=v&_st=17&_docanchor=&view=c&_ct=194&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=c8d243e036e3c6179df34a2299518405

Mitochondrial DNA clonality in the dock: can surveillance swing the case?

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TCY-4KXDW93-3&_user=10&_origUdi=B6VJ1-48H2VNN-3&_fmt=high&_coverDate=11%2F30%2F2006&_rdoc=1&_orig=article&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=241c04ec37381228ba4bf0ce409a75b4

Eve ‘n’ Steve: recombination of human mitochondrial DNA

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VJ1-4D98J1S-1&_user=10&_origUdi=B6TCY-4KXDW93-3&_fmt=high&_coverDate=11%2F01%2F2004&_rdoc=1&_orig=article&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=def3fd0267652dc2979019e4be4b0615

Williams, R. Sanders (2002), “Another Surprise from the Mitochondrial Genome,” New England Journal of Medicine, 347:609-611, August 22.

http://www.bioforensics.com/conference/mtDNA/NEJMpatmtdna.pdf

Sergiacid (talk) 04:08, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Only the 2nd link has any evidence of (a single example of) paternal inheritance. The other links all relate to recombination within the maternal line. --Michael C. Price ^talk 13:39, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Reverted good faith edit by 76.16.176.166

I reverted this good faith edit by 76.16.176.166: diff. New half-baked sentences about limitations of mtDNA and multiregional evolution are valuable information, but should not be simply inserted randomly into the lead section without supporting changes in the main sections. Fred Hsu (talk) 03:59, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Check out similar changes by the same user to Most recent common ancestor in similarly reckless manner. It was reverted swiftly as well. Fred Hsu (talk) 04:10, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree. It is important we keep this article from fraying. It can be added to, but only by way of editorially sound, clean additions, not a sprinkling with factoids here and there.--dab (𒁳) 06:46, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Did you read the source? Fred Hsu did not but he somehow get it. 76.16.176.166 (talk) 16:53, 1 July 2009 (UTC)