Talk:Borg

Borg Queen

The article suggests the Queen was introduced in First Contact, thus seeming like an illogical plot device. The writers have always intended the Borg to have an insect-like hierarchy

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Borg_Queen "To counter this, and to expand some on Gene Roddenberry's original notion of the Borg as an insect-hive type of race, they created the Queen as a focal ..." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.36.17.82 (talk) 21:09, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Earlier Encounters With The Borg

The second paragraph of the history section... am I the only one who thinks this is totally wrong? From what I understood of Regeneration, the ship that was found was the wreckage of the Borg Sphere destroyed over Earth in Star Trek: First Contact. The First Contact page states this in the trivia section.

And as for the subspace thing... the Borg have transwarp portals. Note that Voyager was able to travel back to the alpha quadrant much quicker than they could actually send a subspace radio transmission.

mattbuck 20:20, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I reverted to an earlier version. It seems that User:CaptainDigness added the misinformation. Gdo01 20:21, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

User:CaptainDigness reverted it, I just reverted it back... goddamn him. mattbuck 18:58, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

User:CaptainDigness keeps on insisting the Borg are from the past but the production report clearly states that these are the Borg who survived from First Contact. Gdo01 19:10, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Do we use production reports as ways to resolve these issues? Now to me it is quite clear that these are the surviving Borg from First Contact but there is no dialogue or indication in Regenerations that they are the same. Which takes precedence, the wishes/fantasies of the production team or what is actually on screen? Mmm commentaries (talk) 08:55, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Reply from User:CaptainDigness

This is Captain Digness speaking.

The reason I have kept on editing your work should be rather apparent. If you say these borg came from the future why is their technology limited i.e. They are weaker than a pre-Federation starship. What is more is that I personally spent hours researching this subject before I made such claims. Do the research; all the evidence supports my claims. Check for yourself.

Please read the policy on original research. We aren't here to apply our own research to articles. We're here to report on research that has already been done by reliable sources. Your claims may be correct, but you need to provide a source that agrees with them. --Onorem 18:23, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Alright I too agree. I will do research and bring it to you personally the results and I realize that I was right about the subspace factor and the Borg traveling pre-trans warp due to the fact that they would no doubt have used to evade the Enterprise rather than being destroyed. The fact that they did not suggests they did not have those capabilities at the time. In fact they went the other direction than where the subspace sorridor was located. If you look this up you will see that I am correct. However if you need proof I will bring it to you also by the end of this week. And I request of you to defend against my statement that if the Borg technology is more primitive than that of first contact how are they from first contact. Unless you can answer this with substantial proof I will continue my editing until someone or something puts an end to this.

Any edits you make that constitute Original Research or uncited claims will be removed. CovenantD 18:55, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

As will yours! CaptainDigness

You do see the production report link above. Here it is again. The official Star Trek site says these are the Borg from First Contact. Gdo01 05:49, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

This is captain DBZ Bane 09:11, 10 March 2007 (UTC) speaking.

The Borg only learn by assimulation, thats why species 8745 (or whatever that number is) did so much damage to them in star trek voyager in the episode title scorpion, this was all explained then. Maybe they couldn't assimulate anyone in the future and V'Ger brought them here. DBZ Bane 09:11, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Noooo.... V'Ger didn't happen for another 200 years. mattbuck 09:20, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

V'Ger had the ability to travel to different planes of existance, it can probably travel through time with easy. DBZ Bane 09:27, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Other Species

Why is it that no other major power has been threatened by the borg? The only encounter that the Romulans seemed to have with the Borg is mentioned in The Neutral Zone and then, only outposts were destroyed. The Federation seems to be the only entity that is outright attacked by the borg. The same goes for the Dominion. The Dominion is such a huge territory, I find it hard to believe that the Borg have no interest in it. The technological level of the Dominion is not that much greater than the Federation either, if at all. Again, I think it is unlikely that the Borg would have no interest in the Dominion. Rajrajmarley 21:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

This isn't a forum. Only stuff about improving this article should be here. Gdo01 21:53, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

It makes for a better plot if the attacks happen to the federation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DBZ Bane (talk • contribs) 09:30, 10 March 2007 (UTC).

look in Borg in games i know for in Armada the borg go after the Dominion for tech. and they trun on the Romulans for omega. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.70.31.15 (talk) 03:24, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Voyager features other species assimilated by the Borg, keep this for discussion of the article itself Alastairward (talk) 15:40, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

HR Giger?

Is it just me, or does the interior of the Borg ships look an aweful lot like the works of HR Giger? I'm just curious if there is any basis in his works; either official or otherwise. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.191.17.168 (talk) 02:55, 4 March 2007 (UTC).

Borg Children on Voyager

I am not knowledgeable enough to write it myself, but someone should maybe include the Borg Children like Mezoti and so on in this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.237.52.56 (talk) 06:39, 5 April 2007 (UTC).

Borg as Cybernetic vampirs.

I'm not trekkie but I've been reading this entry and what strikes me is this. No one notes the likeness between the Borg and Vampiers. Like vampiers the Borg don't simply kill their enemies, they take them over, adding to their strength. This stealing of people, technologies or 'powers' is a very big advantage to simply destroying them and triggers a very powerfull response.

This trick is often used in games. One opponent can steal your guns. And as a response the player goes after the thief first, all the others can wait. Usually the thief leads you into big trouble.

Amrypma 13:32, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, the Borg weren't originally supposed to be that way. In Q Who, they were only interested in the Enterprise, and not its crew. In The Best of Both Worlds, Picard was assimilated by the Borg in order for them to have a representative when they conqured the federation, as well as to make abosolutely certain that they had adapted to all Starfleet technology. Note that he was the ONLY one assimilated, and that the crew was quite surprised that the Borg would care about assimilating an individual being into their culture. By First Contact and Voyager, what had once been a plot twist had now become a cliche. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.225.190.6 (talk) 01:49, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. In "Q-Who", the Borg were introduced as a completely alien, unstoppable force to be dreaded. A new level of enemy for the complacent Federation. But by Voyager, they had become the "knuckleheaded zombies" of Trek, a laughable shadow of their original intent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.203.251.157 (talk) 05:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Borg Maxims

When I was on this article recently, there was a section entitled Borg Maxims and it included famous Borg speeches. I can't find it now. Is there a reason it was removed? I thought it was a very interesting section. Sir Akroy 14:29, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I deleted it. First, it contained no citations for what makes the various iterations "famous." The most significant and well-known part of their whole bit -- "resistance is futile" -- is already covered in the intro. Yes, you may think it's interesting, but WP:ILIKEIT is not a rationale for keeping something in the article. Add a citation establishing how each of those different versions of essentially the same bit is notable -- and/or how their progression/changes are significant -- and I'd be fine with it returning. --EEMeltonIV 19:17, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I apologise if this has been mentioned already. The explanation for the Queen's ability to exist in multiple places is simple. The female body is merely a hardware body for the collective's software mind. The body itself is probably cloned/built. Perhaps there's a few queen bodies on every borg ship and they just activate one when they need to. Neil R, 5th June 2006.

automata

Are they really automata? They all think one thought simultaneously, and by definition, this would mean they think independantly. --Teamcoltra 04:14, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

The use of the term automata in the context of the Borg collective consciousness suggests the notion that as individual drones they function only to serve the will of the hive-mind rather than meaning independant units. The term may also suggest that they are independant in terms of their self-sufficiency and nothing futher.

It does not seem reasonable to assume that all Borg think one thought simultaneously as this would be in-efficient especially considering there are Borg scattered throughout the entire Milky-way galaxy and inter-dimensionally. It is more likely that all Borg experience NUMEROUS thoughts simultaneously, or that groups of Borg (or uni-matrices) depending on their inter-spacial context have different thoughts based on the will of the collective drive to assimilate other races, technology and information and that an awareness of their actions rather than that specific unimatrix's actual thoughts are permeated throughout the collective. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shaneo26 (talk • contribs) 12:21, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

The return

This has probably already been covered, but just in case, Shatner wrote in his novel The Return that the Borg programmed V'ger, as there are other book plots mentioned in this article should that not be mentioned also? I'm unclear as to the canon-non-canon boundaries so best to leave it for someone who knows (unless it is in there and I'm just blind) SGGH ^speak! 20:45, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Emblem

At memory alpha, it shows a Borg emblem. Since when do the Borg have an emblem?

Maybe you should go to Memory Alpha, and find out. Specifically where it has already been discussed. --OuroborosCobra 23:48, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Endgame

In the Voyager finale, the borg Queen, unicomplex, and transwarp network were destroyed and a "neurolytic pathogen" spread throughout the collective. Were the Borg destroyed, or temporarily defeated?

they purposefully left it vauge. I don't know why, maybe a future series/movie? swat671 (talk) 03:56, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I didn't understand much of Endgame as it was, but didn't Janeway do something to create some time paradox to prevent her future self from making that sacrifice? Kasha4890 (talk) 04:59, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Wording

Shouldn't the first sentence read The Borg are a race of cyborgs in the fictional Star Trek universe, first introduced in the Star Trek: The Next Generation TV series instead of The Borg are a fictional race of cyborgs in the Star Trek universe, first introduced in the Star Trek: The Next Generation TV series? As it stands, does it not read that the Borg are fictional within Star Trek? 128.253.228.176 13:03, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Yep. I've changed it per your recommendation. Next time, be bold and edit it yourself! --Dan East 13:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Strogg

This question has most likely be addressed multiple times but I wonder if the Strogg from the Quake series were inspired or even directly designed from these Borg creatures. I've not watched much Star Trek in my life, and I haven't played alot of Quake either, and I even though I see some big differences between the two, I look into their histories, appearances, motives etc., they're very similar. Could be a coincidence but since I've noticed alot of sci-fi material is directly tributed to, or inspired by the Star Trek series, I can't help but wondering if that's where the entire concept of the Strogg come from. And for the record I have no intention of modifying the article, but I'm tossing out the possibility of the connection, and where there's a possibility of connection, there's a possibility of sources. ~ Saibot —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.114.216.9 (talk) 14:52, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

On Endgame

There are two reasons that the Pathogen would be rendered essentially not applicable. One, the temporal stuff. Think about it. Admirl Janeway introduces the pathogen, allowing Voyager to get home. Because Voyager gets home, the timeline is altered, and the Admirl Janeway who introduced the pathogen would no longer exsist, therefore the Pathogen would not have been introduced. Confusing, isn't it? Janeway herself tells Kim to not even try when dealing with Temporal Mechanics. Second, think about it in a cenimatic point of view. Had the Pathogen completely destroyed the collective, it would have effectivally wiped the most deadly and most versitile adversary off the face of Star Trek, meaning that they could not be used again. That would just make no scense to the producers. So because the Borg survive due to cenematic stuff, now we deal with the transwarp hub. The Borg still have 5 left, and they could build another, because they originally had to build them. On the unicomplex, however, we see that the think is HUGE!!! They can probably rebuild it, but it would take a lot of time and resources. Also, on the first subject, if the Borg were completely, it would conflict with probably all of the Computer games involving the Borg. We know from Armada that a main Borg complex was destroyed by a de-stabilistation of an Omega Particle. We cannot place that event before or after Endgame, but if Omega destroyed it, the the Pathogen couldn't of. Also, on the Box of Armada 2, there are 2 Intrepid Class ships. That means that at least Intrepid and Voyager, the first two Interpid class ships, were produced at that time. Mabye even Voyager had gotten home by then, meaning that Endgame would have had to happened. And in Starfleet Command 3, Picard states that Voyager has gotten home, but the Borg still show up. Because these games deals with the Borg, I think its safe to say that the Pathogen did not completely eliminate the Borg and that the Borg would have gotten back up on their feet after the destruction of Unimatrix one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.36.166.253 (talk) 03:44, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

While I tend to agree that the Borg have not been wiped out, one must remember that games are non-canon, and often directly conflict with canon. --OuroborosCobra 04:44, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I understand that some people want to believe in CANON so much that they want it to be real, in life. Never forget that all TREK is fiction, an accepted lie, and is NOT REAL. Let the people make up their own minds! WIKINAZIS be damned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.91.104 (talk) 17:18, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the utterly useless post and insult. Guess what, you can still choose to believe whatever you want REGARDLESS of what is written in the Wikipedia article. We haven't implanted you with the mind control chip that forces your devotion to WP and forces you to edit 6 hours a day. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 18:24, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Vs Cybermen

I think this section should be removed. There is no connection noted between Doctor Who and the Cybermen in the article and the original Borg concept was for an insect race (hence the Queen introduced later) The budget allowed only for "robot looking things" and allegedly there were costumes left over from the production of the film Dune that could be used. The whole thing reads like fannish original research and so I'll take criticism of its removal quite happily here in the talk section Alastairward (talk) 10:15, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The Borg as a cultural allusion

Another section that seems unnecessary, especially given that only one sentence of the whole thing refers to any cultural allusion. I suggest removal Alastairward (talk) 15:42, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree. But the one line that does note an allusion is good. We oughta keep that somewhere. BlueCanary9999 (talk) 22:11, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

The article takes an almost in-universe style (possibly deserving a tagging for that) so we're not left with anywhere in particular to drop the reference. Really there should be a section on the creation of the characters, it would go well in there Alastairward (talk) 14:00, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Borg Queen...

This article states the borg queen is species 125...Shouldn't a hive queen have always existed? If so, why isn't she from species 1? =P Is this an error, or just a problem in the show itself? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kasha4890 (talk • contribs) 05:02, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Her being a member of Species 125 is stated in the episode "Dark Frontier". This isn't an error. It is only a problem with the show if you choose to identify it as such. For all we know, the Borg hive mind did not always have a queen, and it was an addition made after a peak size was reached that required more central organization (odd, since the Borg are supposed to be inherently decentralized), the original queen could have been a member of Species 1 and Species 125 was found to be better suited to the role, or any number of other possible reasons. If you choose to take it as an error in the show, then you are adding preconceived notions that have not been explained or stated in the show. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 05:17, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Assessment

I have added a quality assessment rating and importance rating to this article. Feel free to change them as the article improves! Also, feel free to add more issues to the list below, and strike them out (strike) when they're completed. — OranL (talk) 21:30, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Notable issues

• The article is missing a lot of referencing and citations, which makes the reader feel as if the article is original reserarch. It may all be true, but it needs verifiable sources.

Original research tag

The article is already tagged as needing additional citations, I don't see the merit in adding a separate gloabl OR tag. If there are specific pieces of OR these should be specificaly tagged in line or section wise, but if the global tag is being placed as above merely on suspicison due to lack of references, I suggest it is redundant with the presence of a global citations needed tag. MickMacNee (talk) 22:01, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your reasoning. I will remove the tag. — OranL (talk) 23:48, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh, no way. This needs to go back on. There's original research basically throughout the article; it needs serious review from the bottom up. "Borg behavior resembles that of vampires and zombies"? "The Borg were a concept born out of necessity for Star Trek to feature a new antagonist and regular enemy that was lacking during the first season of The Next Generation"? "Prior to the movie Star Trek: First Contact, there seems to be no evidence of a hierarchical structure within the Borg collective"? I'd have to plant fifteen or so tags on this to replace the current one. The top template should go back on pending review. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:10, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, the global tag is back, despite the examples above being fixable through adding citations. I shall now a attempt a mind meld to discern what the other fifteen or so examples of OR are, given the complete lack of any other constructive pointers (like more helpful inline tags). MickMacNee (talk) 18:05, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to try to work on this myself, but it's a big job; the last time I did heavy work on this article (serious reworking from the ground up) was eighteen months ago, and it's difficult to keep atop articles like this one. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 22:21, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

To clarify, the article may be completely correct. All of the information contained in it might be true, but, according to WP:V, all information must be sourced. While the sources may be included in the prose, the sources are not obvious at first glance. They should be completely obvious so that readers can feel completely comfortable in the reliability of the information contained in the article. The best way to do this, in my opinion, is to use the <ref> tags with Wikipedia-style in-line citations. Using these tags also helps compile a reference list, which readers may then use to do further research on the topic and easily create a Works Cited or Bibliography page. — OranL (talk) 22:56, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Biotechnological Critique deleted

The Biotechnological Critique is a total mess. It contains, as its primary problems, an alarming number of uncited opinions that appear to be original research, hard-to-read run-on sentences with points that go around in circles, practically off topic references to other works of science fiction, and, overall, a complete irrelevance to most of the article. Some of the points made could be briefly used in another section as long as they are properly referenced. But this section itself is so sloppy and unnecessary that I decided to completely delete it. Abodos (talk) 04:28, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Good call. What a mess that was. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:50, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the section was written like a personal essay, but it wasn't that hard to read. It has some save-able points if re-written from a factual basis, for example the fact that most collective organisms found in nature do not go on the relentless attack as the Borg are portrayed. While nobody in a source may have said that, it certainly isn't personal opinion, and it's not original research as it doesn't make any claims. MickMacNee (talk) 13:23, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

If it's not OR then it's a complete non sequitur, this not being the article on other collective organisms. It's an observation, made in the context of the Borg, which has not been advanced by a secondary source. This makes it unsuitable for inclusion. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 13:37, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

The secondary source argument is frankly over used in Wikipedia when referring to factual information. As for relevance, I am not aware of any other fictional collective organism as famous as the Borg, so it can be argued that this is a fair piece of information for this article, notwithstanding the creation of fictional cybernetic collective organism as a general topic. MickMacNee (talk) 14:41, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Please read the deleted section carefully. Then come back here and tell me, with a straight face, that the section was usable in any way, shape, or form. — OranL (talk) 17:17, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I already gave a specific fact that in my opinion could be mentioned. Given the idea this is meant to be an out of universe article about the Borg, then comparison of their depiction/characterisation with that of the real world example of collective organisms is quite valid for an encyclopoedic article. MickMacNee (talk) 17:25, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Not when all such comparison is original research. As for "the secondary source argument" being "frankly over", once upon a time I thought the war against Pokécruft was unwinnable, but even that seems to have been changing recently. I'm sure that there are plenty of existent secondary sources which could be used to write a similar section in future without all the general horridness of the presently-deleted one. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 17:51, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Did you actually read my replies? I said "over used", not "over". And I was not advocating keeping the current version, the idea is to edit it per my above reasoning. Comparing the portrayal of the Borg to nature is not original research as it advances no opinion/argument. MickMacNee (talk) 19:05, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Without sources, this section is not valid for Wikipedia. Wikipedia documents the facts; it does not accept uncited, unpublished synthesis for inclusion in an article. The section begins with "But, as many life scientists and cyberneticians have pointed out, [no reference] the Borg should not have been as monstrous as they appeared, and could have in fact been a very attractive race.", and ends with, "The Borg thus are a disappointment in many ways, and scientifically as well as psychologically no more than fear inducers at best." Both are conclusions, and both are unsourced. The rest of the section follows that example and uses phrases like "The best guesses are…" and "Both theories are equally unprovable…". These are not facts, and they do appear to be published opinions. There's no doubt in my mind that this section doesn't belong on Wikipedia. — OranL (talk) 18:09, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

As above, did you read my replies? I was not advocating keeping the current version at all, the idea is to edit it per my above reasoning, to extract the useful facts, making no conclusions or asserting no opinions. I'm frankly getting tired of this talk page being used as a battleground with every editor semmingly assumed to be an OR/SYNTH/POV pushing idiot who doesn't know the wikipedia policies. MickMacNee (talk) 19:05, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Calm down. Nobody's accusing you of trying to push OR - there's legitimate disagreement over whether a comparison consistutes OR if it isn't made by a source, that's all. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 19:36, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

So you're saying that we should add facts about a different subject into the article, comparing the two subjects without drawing any conclusions? How would you propose doing that? — OranL (talk) 23:08, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

The Borg are portrayed as an aggressive fictional collective organism using assimilation for the goal of improvement. It is notable that by contrast, no actual collective organism in nature acts in this way, and they merely act to survive. Or something along those lines. But it's moot anyway, don't worry, I won't even be attempting to add anything to this article, as it's clear what the current working environment is in here. MickMacNee (talk) 02:54, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Q Who Borg ship on its way to Earth?

The text mentions that the way to explain the disparity of the Enterprise episode Regenerations also explains why the Q Who Borg ship was already on its way to Earth. Nowhere in Q Who is it indicated in any way that the Borg ship is heading to Earth. Q threw the Enterprise close to a Borg ship in that part of the galaxy. I think this needs to be changed. Mmm commentaries (talk) 08:52, 4 July 2009 (UTC)