Talk:Bonin Islands

Cleanup

I did what I could to clean up the page. There were some redundant lines, and other things I thought needed to be added/removed/rearranged. Perhaps the subtropical moist forest part should be its own article? --The chuck 17:00, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I removed and corrected some erroneous info about transportation. Also added a few lines about the linguistic situation. (Thanks for the requests for info about that.) I would like to help clean up the info done by automatic translation from the Japanese page, but it is a mess.

Poll notice: "Ogasawara Islands" instead of "Bonin Islands"

Please vote in Poll: "Ogasawara Islands" instead of "Bonin Islands", to resolve inconsistencies within WP:MOS-JA.

Proposal — Use "Ogasawara Islands" instead of the common English name "Bonin Islands", in body texts and in page names.

This poll is intended to resolve the conflict between the current page name Ogasawara Islands, and the English words of Japanese origin rule of WP:MOS-JA.

• A "support" vote suggests a change in WP:MOS-JA to make an exception for "Ogasawara Islands".
• An "oppose" vote suggests a page move from Ogasawara Islands → Bonin Islands.

Please see Poll: "Ogasawara Islands" instead of "Bonin Islands" for details, and vote there. This poll will end Dec. 13, so please hurry.--Endroit 18:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Poll result

The result of this poll was "oppose", which means that this article needed to be moved from Ogasawara Islands → Bonin Islands. See Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)/Ogasawara Islands debate for details.--Endroit 09:07, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Extent of the Group

Regarding the recent edits, it is to be noted that the term Bonin Islands relates to Ogasawara Guntō, not Ogasawara Shotō. The former is a geographical term that does not include the Volcano Islands and remote islands. The latter is just a collective terms of all islands that belong to the municipality of Ogasawara.--Ratzer (talk) 05:39, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Please amplify the rationale which informs your interesting edit to this article. I would have thought your fine-tuning edit was not the best approach to this article at this stage of its development? Alternately, I would have thought your edit would need explaining in the context of the text which remains? --Tenmei (talk) 14:48, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi, an initial explanation I left here along with my edit. Administratively, the Volcano Islands, Nishinoshima (Rosario Island), Okinotorishima (Parece Vela) and Minamitorishima (Marcus Island) are part of Ogasawara municipality (let them be mentioned and listed in the municipality article), but geographically, they are not part of the Bonin Islands, which consist of the Mukojima, Chichijima and Hahajima subgroups only. If it is required, I shall produce ample evidence of the latter, but I hope it suffices to cite the standard work of Otis W. Freeman: Geography of the Pacific, 1951, which I had been able to acquire last year (pages 229 bis 235, with many sources, still available here) , and the Britannica article Unfortunately, I cannot read Japanese sources, and online translations are of bad quality. Greetings, --Ratzer (talk) 17:10, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

I've tweaked the text using your words -- a step in a constructive direction; but I'm wondering if this isn't one of those cases in which fuzzy logic is a little better than precise language. I'm not arguing with you -- not at all. At the same time, I'm not persuaded that the points you raise are resolved simply by citing Freeman's text.

My guess is that Freeman's mid-century perspective needs to be modified in our 21st-century Wikipedia, but until you or I or someone else presents a citation which expresses a slightly different taxonomic analysis, the Freeman standard is unassailable. What matters most is WP:V; or, in other words,

"[t]he threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true."

Your fine-tuning is undeniably sound. The article is enhanced; however, for me, there are areas of plausible uncertainty which still remain open questions. --Tenmei (talk) 21:08, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

I think any geographical work will limit the extent of the Bonin Islands/Ogasawara Gunto to Mukojima retto + Chichijima retto + Hahajima retto. At the most, Nishinoshima will be included occasionally, because of relative proximity, although this is geographically incorrect (separation by deep Ogasawara Trough). The notion of including Kazan retto, Minamitorishima and Okinotorishima, which is also found in official Japanese sources, comes from reference to the administrative unit (village, mura). Modern standard encyclopedias like Britannica and Encarta describe the Bonin Islands also in the geographical sense, and not the municipality in the administrative sense. In WP we can do both, because we have an article for the municipality (Ogasawara, Tokyo) and for the geographical objects it is composed of (Bonin Islands, Volcano Islands, Nishinoshima, Tokyo (article pending, see de:Nishinoshima (Tokio)), Minami Torishima and Okinotorishima).--Ratzer (talk) 10:20, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I believe that your proposed taxonomy is justified by mid-20th century English-language sources, and your approach to the factors which distinguish administrative and geographical groupings is reasonable. Reviewing the history section of the article, I speculate that Nathaniel Savory, Matthew C. Perry, Lionel Cholmondeley and George H.W. Bush would likely agree with your thinking, but I'm not convinced that this should be construed as definitive. Instead, I'd like to suggest that we consider this more tentatively -- as only the best strategy we can devise in mid-2009? --Tenmei (talk) 15:14, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Bonin Islands gallery

Hello Tenmei, what happened to the Bonin Islands gallery? The pictures related to the Volcano Islands (Kazan retto) I put there, but I didn't find where you put the remaining pictures.

• 
  Mukojima
• 
  Chichijima
• 
  Minamijima, a small island in Chichijima group
• 
  Hahajima

--Ratzer (talk) 06:32, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Mukojima

Chichijima

Minamijima, a small island in Chichijima group

Hahajima

In the gallery, I am seeing no images, only empty boxes with captions. The placement of these gallery boxes remain unchanged, only hidden by an editing tool/device pending further investigation:

<!-- (a) images are not displayed and (b) is this the best position in which to post a gallery of photos? -->

<!-- (a) I don't know what problems you are experiencing, I can see the pictures (b) perhaps further down in the article, which I shall do (Ratzer) -->

I also wondered about reversing the order in which the gallery photos are "read"? The more interesting questions you raised did distract my attention. I forgot to post a follow-up inquiry about these blank non-image boxes. This odd mystery is explained as nothing more than a mistake. --Tenmei15:33, 7 July 2009

now the images are sorted north-south.--Ratzer (talk) 17:30, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I see only blank boxes -- nothing but white in this gallery of 4 empty boxes? --Tenmei (talk) 18:13, 7 July 2009 (UTC)