Talk:American Airlines Flight 77

Fatalities doubts

The real number of fatalities is uncertain. It was suggested to be 95 (65 AA passengers and 30 on ground) based on page 7 of "Mass Fatality Management for Incidents Involving Weapons of Mass Destruction" (PDF). U.S. Army Research Development and Engineering Command and the Office for Domestic Preparedness. August 2005. http://www.edgewood.army.mil/hld/dl/MFM_Capstone_August_2005.pdf. Retrieved on 2008-06-24." Other sources (citation needed) suggest different numbers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.253.176.90 (talk) 01:35, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Pentagon doubts

Does anyone have a source for this claim?

Some people have voiced doubts about whether a plane really crashed into the Pentagon. Video footage from a nearby Sheraton hotel was confiscated by the FBI. An amateur recording taken just after the impact does not give the impression that a plane had just hit the building.

If not, it should probably be taken out. --GD 23:05, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

I agree, this comes out. This whole Flight-77-did-not-crash-into-the-Pentagon business does not belong here at all. It is discussed under the misinformation and rumour page. Arno 04:48, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

The fact that it is discussed there does not mean it's irrelevant on this page. In any case, at least a link to that page is in order. There are several sources for the claims (see the misinformation page, which I now linked), if necessary the sources can be copied. Even though it's a conspiracy theory, it has enough merit, compared with the official version (which has no direct evidence at all) to be included. Paranoid 13:49, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I must say i strongly disagree with this. And there is real proof. I believe there are even slideshows free to download on this subject on the web. One very good example would be a "movie" called Painful Deceptions - An analysis of the 9/11 Attacks, which can be downloaded via the ed2k network: ed2k://|file|Painful_Deceptions_-_An_Analysis_of_the_911_Attacks.avi|405514240|84FDF929F34A6CD69A814FE891C0A216|/ NoSuchUser

The fact that there is a "doubt" to the accuracy of the facts by paranoid and factually uneducated individuals - whether or not they are Wikipedia users - is irrelevant. The article on the Moon landing does not use words such as "allegedly" and "most believe," and with good reasons: Because consipiracy theories regarding the Moon landing are hogwash, plain and simple. The same holds true for the "no-757" conspiracy theories. There is a page on the conspiracy theories. That page should exist, provided it presents the facts. A link to that article is sufficient. These conspiracy theories have no business on this page, which is intended to present the facts, not what some people wish were the facts./JCaesar.

The theory that the pentagon was not hit by a plane is excellently debunked by snopes.com , and the link which is under that catagorey apparently contains a number of half-truths, total lies and have even modified quotes etc. I don't think a site like that that clearly contains delebriatley incorrect infomation indented to trick people into beliving lies should be linked to without a disclaimer

Nitpicking time :D "Some people have voiced doubts about claims that the Pentagon was not hit ..." I'd put it "Some people have voiced doubts about claims that the Pentagon was hit ..." -andy 80.129.100.99 00:11, 22 September 2005 (UTC) The "not" is illogical. People claimed that the Pentagon *WAS* hit, and those other people DOUBTED it. ;)

It is very true that many educated people throughout the world (I wish someone made a survey!) have simply not found an explanation that clearly correlates the photographic evidence of the crash site and the official Flight 77 story. There may be an explanation, but the published photographs do not show clear evidence of the remnants of a large aircraft, and it is very logical that doubts have been raised. I don't care about conspiracies, I don't question any other story about 9-11, I make every effort to remain objective in anything I discuss. Shutting down and disregarding those who present these doubts is not fair. I have respectfully expressed in Wikipedia the fact that the same questions about Flight 77 have been raised independently throughout the world, but my contribution gets deleted within minutes no matter when I do it. WHY? I am not denying the official story of Flight 77, I am only saying that it is constantly debated by many. And that is true.

2007 continuation

I know people are going to hate me for saying this, but I really think there should be a small section about the fact that there are so many conspiracy theories. I dispute nothing, it's just I think it's best to talk about it, rather than vaguely allude to it. For instance, the "witnesses" section clearly gives an indication that some feel the need to prove it happened. Somebody mentioned the moon landing conspiracies. Well, there is a section about them in the Moon_landing article, as stupid as they are. I guess some feel that precisely because too many people believe that no plane crashed into the Pentagon, it shouldn't be mentioned. My point of view is, the more people believe it, the more we should talk about it, otherwise the lack of comment just fuels the flame. Maybe I'll add a proposition here in the talk page later today. Ratfox 20:04, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

It's fair enough to mention the conspiracy theories, but please use mainstream reliable sources which discuss them (not the conspiracy theorists themselves). As an example see Flight 19#Bermuda Triangle connection, where a reliable source is used to discuss the "other" theories about what happened to the flight. Anynobody 20:53, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, here is a proposition. I am open to suggestions and critics, you can make your own version if you want. I mainly ripped off other wikipedia articles. I just think there should be a section about it, that is all. Ratfox 00:53, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Hoax accusations (proposition)

Main article: Pentagon not hit by a Boeing 757

Due to the important political consequences of the 9/11 attacks, a number of conspiracy theories challenging the mainstream account have emerged. These propositions range from claims that the government of the United States had foreknowledge of the attacks and deliberately let them happen, to allegations that the whole event was staged.

In particular, one of the most well-known theories contends that the Pentagon was not hit by a Boeing 757, but by a smaller object (typically a missile or smaller aircraft). Various physical models are proponed claiming the damage to be insufficient for such an impact, and the witnesses are accused of having been paid off. The suspicions are fueled by the lack of clear video footage of the impact.

Due to the high visibility of the event, this theory is controversial amongst conspiracy theorists themselves, many of them now believing it was indeed flight 77 which crashed into the Pentagon. Some of them go as far as suggesting that the crash happened, but was engineered to make it appear that it did not, the purported goal being to divide, distract and discredit their community.

Okay. After waiting one week, I have now added my proposition to the page. I further suggest that no details of the theories should be given here, using instead the page dedicated to all 9/11 conspiracy theories, or eventually creating one just for this event.

I repeat, I think the hoax accusations are widespread enough to justify a small section. Even the moon landing page has such a section. Ratfox 21:29, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

The section is overly long, and is poorly sourced. The only source provided is not a reliable source. Also, if we include such a section, it needs to be titled "Conspiracy theories" and not "hoax accusations". --Aude (talk) 22:19, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, my proposition was here for one week, waiting hopefully for such comments. I don't mind if we change the name, I don't mind if we change the text. I just think that there should be a section talking about the theories, no matter how crackpot they are... I'll try to make a new version, hopefully more to your liking. Ratfox 23:14, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

The current Conspiracy Theory section is biased and does not reflect the fact that 70 percent of the people in the US believe in this "hoax". I proposed that it be changed to reflect a NPOV. I don't believe in the conspiracies either, but reading the article sounds like it was written by someone who wants to express his disdain for such theories. --DesmondE —Preceding undated comment added 16:18, 28 March 2009 (UTC).

Conspiracy theories (2nd proposition, following suggestions)

Main article: Conspiracy theory about 9/11 attack on Pentagon

Due to the important political consequences of the 9/11 attacks, a number of conspiracy theories challenging the mainstream account have emerged. These propositions range from claims that the government of the United States had foreknowledge of the attacks and deliberately let them happen, to allegations that the whole event was staged.

In particular, one of the most well-known theories, started by Thierry Meyssan in a book, contends that the Pentagon was not hit by a Boeing 757, but by a smaller object (typically a missile or smaller aircraft). Though the book and its claims have drawn wide criticism from many sides, the theory is still popular with some conspiracy theorists.

Okay, second try. The section is shorter, named "Conspiracy theories", and uses about the only reliable source (Not of what happened, but of what the theories are). Let's try to agree on something so we can put it on the web page. For the moment, it a bit odd, because the article is debunking the theory without even telling what it is. Ratfox 01:14, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually the article isn't debunking conspiracy theories so much as it is simply giving the facts of what happened. Anynobody 02:05, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Maybe "debunking" is a slight exaggeration. Still, for instance, there is a section named Witnesses. The term somewhat implies that there is a need to prove something. There is no such section in any of the other crashes. Also, in the section Security camera video it is said that it was released in the hope that it would dispel conspiracy theories, and concerns are expressed that the video are not clear enough to "end the talk of a conspiracy". Well, what conspiracy theories?

More or less, I guess I consider this particular theory to be the most famous one, and the wildest, ever since people pretended the moon landing was fake. In comparison, making allegations of dark governments secrets or pretending planes are remote-controlled are rather easy to do. But pretending that a plane which crashed in the middle of Washington didn't actually exist, that's really huge. That apparently many people still believe it, that's also huge. So we should mention it.

But I write, I write, and I see only now that you took care of it! ^^ Ratfox 20:47, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

... And there's a new version again. I don't mind, everything is summarized quite clearly. Ratfox 20:57, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Just a quick friendly FYI before I respond, you shouldn't feel compelled to try out potential versions here first, stuff almost never gets done unless editors are bold about editing.

I understand your concerns regarding using the word witnesses for a section, however speaking as someone who edits airline crash articles regularly, it's not really unusual. If there are a lot of witness accounts given in a source they could find their way into a relevant section devoted to eyewitness accounts. (In this case for example, the taxi driver who's cab was hit by debris from a street light isn't much different than people on the road near where Air Florida Flight 90 went down in 1982 and gave accounts of what they saw.) Anynobody 22:54, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Sigh. Tsk Tsk Tsk. I know I may sound like a typical conspiracy theorist, but the evidence is all there. You just simply have to look for it. http://www.serendipity.li/wot/pentagon/spencer05.htm By the way, it's quite obvious that a small blip like that of a plane is not a Boeing 757. Sheared lamp posts in the area also suggest a path that the plane might have taken. Judge for yourself. 71.131.182.235 (talk) 01:24, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Idiot should be mentioned

I want to make it clear that I don't agree with the French guy's idea of the US launching a missile against the Pentagon. His "theory" got coverage in major media as the first conspiracy associated with the Pentagon though, and some people in France buy it. It really should be mentioned in the article. Anynobody 21:45, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

If it was only the people in France! I feel ambivalent about giving this guy more coverage than he should get, but I guess he's the guy who brought the whole thing to mainstream attention... Ratfox 22:19, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

There are reliable sources about Meyssan and his theory, so it's reasonable to mention him. I think that Dylan Avery and David Ray Griffin learned about Meyssan and caught on later. --Aude (talk) 22:41, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

You're probably right about Avery and Griffin. In my experience with "theories" like this, one author comes up with something and two or three others go with it.

Ratfox is also right, there are plenty in the states and abroad who believe this nonsense. I've also never encountered anyone who buys this stuff but could give me a straight answer to a very simple question, Where is Barbara Olsen? (Along with the 757 and other passengers). They never seem bothered by their inability to answer it either. Anynobody 07:47, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Easy: She never existed, and the whole list of passenger was fake. Or if you know her personally, she's in prison somewhere. Or she was in the conspiracy. Or maybe you're the one in the conspiracy! ^^ Ultimately, I think some people believe that because they are just happier that way. Who want to be unhappy? Ratfox 21:12, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

The ability of a B757 do travel at 530 mph at an altitude of 10 ft should be proven before it is included in the page.Also how it was immune to the aileron reversal phenomenon at this speed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.38.70.236 (talk) 05:25, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Terrorists?

At what point does an organised attack on a Government military instilation equate to terrorisms in ANY context? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.221.102.42 (talk) 13:51, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Hijackers

we lack the flight manifest which would put those hijackers aboard, couldn’t find one, if you stumble upon it, remove the tag. Quantumentanglement (talk) 04:33, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

photo caption

Captions should be written in a manner that they can act as a substitute for the image for people who cannot view them, or for the vision impaired, or others who are using screen readers to 'view' the photo. I changed the caption to Officially-released DOD footage from the Pentagon shows a "thin white blur" followed by an explosion as more descriptive of what the video shows than flight 77 crashes into the Pentagon. Someone viewing the film will not see flight 77, but will see "thin white blur" (cited quote) followed by an explosion. 67.49.8.228 (talk) 07:52, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

There's no reason to be so disdainfully literal. The video shows, albeit in poor-quality, what hundreds saw that day: Flight 77 crashing into the Pentagon. To present it as something else just raises undue doubt upon the reader. And "thin white blur" is more confusing, in my opinion. -- VegitaU (talk) 15:55, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

You DO know that the camera was shooting at a blistering speed of 1 FPS. It isn't going to capture anything useful other than cars stopping to pay the toll or get the ticket. The aircraft was going at 500+ MPH. Simple. Havoc1310 (talk) 14:09, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

The anonymous editor has a point about the video, but while we really can't expect much from a camera designed to take (low quality) photos of vehicles entering a parking garage, it's also all we have. Given the difficulty discerning what the video shows for users with poor eyesight/monitors I made the gif highlighting flight 77 from 2 frames of it, of all them it shows the part people need to see most, a few pixels of one showing a large black object with large tail obscured by a parking ticket dispenser followed by a white blur.

I'm not saying the gif replaces the ogg, which should be kept to provide the complete picture. Anynobody(?) 04:33, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Outstanding issues

I'm a bit dismayed at the FAC process, that this article passed with outstanding issues. I don't think it is FA quality just yet. Not sure whether to bother with my time, but here are outstanding issues:

1. There should be a section on rebuilding the Pentagon and construction of the Pentagon memorials. It need not be long with excess details, but per WP:SUMMARY, this article is the place to go into more detail about Flight 77 and the effects on the Pentagon. That they had to reconstruct the portion of the Pentagon is because of Flight 77, and the memorials are for what happened with Flight 77.
   1. Added very brief information, though a little more could be said. --Aude (talk) 16:59, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
2. Witnesses section can use some tweaking. Steve Riskus should be added with a reliable source. For the quotes from Dave Winslow and Tim Timmerman, it is unclear if they were in the same place as the Metro passengers.
   1. Took out the Metro passengers bit. --Aude (talk) 16:59, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
3. I think that information about the debris belongs in the recovery section. Firefighters and others in the Pentagon (evacuating or during rescue/recovery) found not only the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder, but I know they found things like airplane seats. Some even contained victims. I'm quite sure Patrick Creed and Rick Newman mentions these details, though not sure the page number.
   1. This is partially done. More information is in Creed and Newman's book. --Aude (talk) 16:59, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
4. Some YouTube links to legit material may be okay, including material posted by Judicial Watch and Scott Bingham from FOIA requests. Also, the Purdue University simulations.
5. More could be done with the bit about Donald Rumsfeld. The fact that he came out to help, I think help load some victims onto stretchers probably could go in a different section than talking about the casualties. That he left his office meant that he wasn't right there to speak with other government officials (e.g. the Vice President), though I know his deputy was there and handled that. Then, what about further response on an official level to keep the DOD operating? He could have gone to Site R (a backup site), but I think they sent Paul Wolfowitz. With Rumsfield's personality (known as stubborn), he insisted the Pentagon keep operating. The National Military Command Center continued to operate, even with smoke coming in. In the rest of the building, the power mostly stayed on. Rumsfeld had people come to work the next day at the Pentagon. I know that Steve Vogel talks quite a bit about this in his book.
   1. I had added something about this in May [1] with a link to the NPR interview with Rick Newman and Patrick Creed. This could be readded (with the NPR reference which people might like to hear) and expanded upon. Don't need to go into excessive detail, but something should be said about how the DOD responded through the ordeal.
      1. This is added, though can be tweaked per information in Steve Vogel's book. --Aude (talk) 16:59, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
6. For the sources, there are some other offline sources that I think are worth consulting for this article to make it more comprehensive. These include The Pentagon by Steve Vogel was published in 2007. It is more broad than 9/11, but talks a bit about 9/11 and rebuilding the section of the building. Another is Firefight: Inside the Battle to Save the Pentagon On 9/11, which is recently out.
7. Something else that is lacking is discussion of how the Pentagon structure held up to the crash. The fact that this section was recently renovated, with reinforced concrete, blast-resistant windows, ... and the nature of the structure compared to the twin towers is something to address in the article. The ASCE report is a good source for this.
8. The section about the hijackers, something should be added about how these five hijackers worked together largely separate (in San Diego and Arizona) from all the others. And, that Hani Hanjour was not part of the Hamburg Cell.

I have limited free time right now and periods of time with no internet access, while I am on wikibreak to work on this, but could help out when I do get some free time. --Aude (talk) 13:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I have spent some time on these, though a bit more work is needed. I will have no internet access for approximately a week, but can come back to this later. --Aude (talk) 16:59, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

"Vandalism" or a self-appointed policeman’s overreaction?

On August 7, 2008 User:VegitaU (“Veggy”) stowed the following warning into my user Talk Page:

“ August 2008

This is the last warning you will receive for your disruptive edits. The next time you delete or blank page content or templates from Wikipedia, as you did to American Airlines Flight 77, you will be blocked from editing. If you have a problem with cited material, bring it up on the talk page, don't just impetuously delete it. Veggy (talk) 18:31, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

”

---

This is the first time that I’ve been accused of vandalism, ever. Such accusation is false and groundless. In addition, it is impolite and inconsiderate. Therefore, I ask for your patience, for I must defend myself from this grievous and unjust attack.

Yes, I did have a problem with an absurd little piece of text, as explained next:

ORIGINAL TEXT of 01:29, 5 August 2008:

“ In 2002, the remains of the five unidentified victims were buried at Arlington National Cemetery, with a five-sided granite marker inscribed with the victims' names at the burial site.[76] ”

With all respect for the victims of 9/11, I suppose you will agree that it's a little difficult to "inscribe the names" of "unidentified victims".

---

Reasons for my deletion

In WP:No reliable sources, no verifiability, no_article , Wikipedia founder Jimbo Wales is quoted writing:

“ Jimbo Wales agrees

Specifically with regard to BLP

I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative "I heard it somewhere" pseudo information is to be tagged with a "needs a cite" tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons. - Jimbo Wales, 16 May 2006 (Zero information is preferred to misleading or false information

More generally I really want to encourage a much stronger culture which says: it is better to have no information, than to have information like this, with no sources. Any editor who removes such things, and refuses to allow it back without an actual and appropriate source, should be the recipient of a barnstar. - Jimbo Wales, 19 July 2006 (Insist on sources)

”

---

Thanks to my deletion (and this is a good example where 'to delete' may ultimately have a positive effect), said User talk:VegitaU obviously felt compelled to review and rewrite such phrase , which resulted in a better and augmented text, plus a refurbished, useful citation this time. So, now the article is a bit better –but I got a harsh reprimand nonetheless.

CURRENT CORRECTED TEXT of 14:38, 7 August 2008

“ In 2002, the remains of twenty-five victims were buried collectively at Arlington National Cemetery, with a five-sided granite marker inscribed with the names of all the victims in the Pentagon.[76] ”

NEW TEXT ADDED 14:38, 7 August 2008

“ The ceremony also honored the five victims whose remains were never found.[76] ”

---

Far from being vandalism, my edit had this clear and signed statement:

“ (--> Remains: "names of the five unidentified victims"??? - good grief! - text deleted) ”

..so I guess your Siebot tool overdid it this time, and you fully believed it before making a more humane, more logical judgment.

---

ORIGINAL CITATION:

“ 76. ^ Vogel, Steve (13 September 2002). "Lost and, Sometimes, Never Found; Pentagon Families Bury 25 of Their Dead Together and Mourn Five Not Identified", The Washington Post. ”

It's simple to check how the only verifiable data in that quote was its date.

---

CURRENT CITATION: adding a new link to "Lost and, Sometimes, Never Found"

“ 76. ^ a b Vogel, Steve (13 September 2002). "Lost and, Sometimes, Never Found" , The Washington Post. Retrieved on 7 August 2008. ”

Notice the new and useful link.

In short, I deleted a brief portion of text that made no sense, along with an useless citation, for the reasons that it was illogical, absurd, and in doing so I fully complied with the Wikipedia founder’s deletion policy.

In return, I’ve been accused of vandalism, no less (that is, I’ve been insulted), and have also been threatened to be blocked ‘‘the next time I delete or blank page content’‘ (even if when so doing I’d be in full compliance of Mr. Wales’ guidelines).

However, to my great relief, I’ve noticed this warning in User:VegitaU ‘s Talk Page:

“

You have been temporarily blocked from editing in accordance with Wikipedia's blocking policy for abuse of editing privileges.

”

The above block notice, probably put there by another Admin with more judgment and authority than User:VegitaU (“Veggy”) thinks he has, is a testimony toward the lack of maturity, or impulsiveness, of this Colombian youngster that has made American Airlines Flight 77 his own pet article.

Back to the beginning.

Other Admins, whenever they’ve made me a complaint (nobody’s perfect, I make my mistakes, so I don’t purport to be) have often had the courtesy of starting with a nice Thank you for your edits.

But User:VegitaU (“Veggy”) wrote, very menacingly:

“ This is the last warning you will receive for your disruptive edits. ”

Well, if it’s the last, it also happens to be the first, so I haven’t much of a chance, have I?

But, just what "disruptive edits"are you talking about? That's just your own POV.

Youngster, you need to learn some manners, some courtesy, and to have some respect. It looks like your Air Force’s education was not enough.

Regards, --AVM (talk) 03:55, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Sure can write a lot. That may have been useful in this case, but alas...

Not sure where you're confused here. You deleted a properly cited sentence from a reliable source. Big no-no. If it was poorly written this is where you could have brought that issue up for clarification. The remains were unidentifiable, the victims were not unknown. Either way, I've improved the wording as you didn't want to make the effort. Thank you for your edits. -- Veggy (talk) 05:38, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Discrepancy

"The 189 victims of the attack are memorialized in the Pentagon Memorial adjacent to the Pentagon. The 1.93-acre (7,800 m2) park consists of 184 benches, one for each of the victims,"

How can there be "one for each of the victims" if there were 189 victims but only 184 benches? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.88.84.123 (talk) 03:48, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

uhm, well there is no discrepancy. There were 189 deaths if you include the terrorists, and I don't think people would want them memorialized.Jason1170 (talk) 15:19, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Overlooked Conspiracy Fact

A lot of people overlooked the fact that nearly 100% of America's airline pilots (and the world's) acknowledge they could never, ever, ever run their plane into the Pentagon, even if their life depended on it, or anything that is of a normal height, or the height of the Pentagon - even if they were at the minimum required speed to stay in the air. That's the best hardcore, undeniable, indisuptable fact that should be included, that 99% of our pilots do not believe an airplane hit the Pentagon, knowing they could never ever hit such a building in their wildest dreams, or, in reality on a flight simulator.

Then, being so low to the ground at the alleged speed... yeah, pilots have a few things to say about that as well. Then further, hitting the pentagon on the outer-side, instead of the inner-inside, or crashing through the roof. Even if you guys don't put this in the article, you guys should talk to a pilot about the pentagon crash, you'll hear the same answers every time. I do have a question for anyone who knows. Did this attack, attributed to terrorists, on the American military play a major role in getting the legal approval to send troops to war? Jason1170 (talk) 15:42, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

• Do you have any sources for these statistics? Consentium (talk) 14:32, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Conspiracy theory section

The conspiracy theory section is not an attempt at explaining the nature of the conspiracy theories, but an attempt to debunk them. This is clearly a wrathful overreaching on the part of people who are not letting themselves remain neutral. On top of that it's laden with weasel words like "minutiae". 24.174.82.195 (talk) 15:51, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Reality Check

On top of the fact that so many professional pilots admit they could not perform that manoeuvre, Hani Hanjour was described by his flight trainers as a terrible pilot who could not properly perform the most basic tasks. There are no photos of large pieces of debris, which a crash like that would certainly leave (as has been proved in all airline crashes, no matter how violent). The explanation that jet fuel melted most of the debris is fundamentally false, as it is scientifically impossible for jet fuel to burn at such a temperature to melt steel. The only images of the impact itself do not contain an aircraft. And yet the article states, against all scientific and logical reason, that Hani Hanjour hijacked Flight 77, a plane of which type he had never even attempted to fly (he was trained on regular flight training aircraft, I don't know which planes exactly but they are similar in size to an average Cessna), got past NORAD - the tightest air defence system in the world, performed a circular descent to near ground-level, a manoeuvre that his flight trainer stated he could not have performed, and crashed into a low building perfectly.

Looking at the evidence it's fair to say that this article deserves more than just a small "Conspiracy Theories" section. -92.11.156.43 (talk) 16:14, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Propposed changes to the lead

"American Airlines Flight 77 was the third flight hijacked as part of the September 11 attacks,. and iIt was deliberately crashed into the Pentagon.

(Pbreak)

The scheduled U.S. domestic flight from Washington Dulles International Airport, near Washington, D.C., to Los Angeles International Airport was hijacked by five Islamic terrorists less than 35 minutes into the flight. The hijackers stormed the cockpit and forced the passengers to the rear of the aircraft. Hani Hanjour, one of the hijackers who was trained as a pilot, assumed control of the flight. Unknown to the hijackers, passengers aboard were able to make calls to loved ones and relay information on the hijacking.

The aircraft crashed into the western facadeside of the Pentagon at 09:37 a.m. Eastern TimeEDT..."

A few minor changes. The "and," is just weird. Paragraph break needed. "Domestic" and "Near...D.cC," seems redundant. Facade is the exterior. Technically true but "side" sums it up better since it broke through. Eastern Daylight Time (do we need a GMT conversion)? Any objections, tweaks, whatever?Cptnono (talk) 09:36, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

David Ray Griffin *is* a reliable source for conspiracy theories

User:VegitaU reverted my edits with the following note:

David Ray Griffin is a noted conspiracy theorist and his fringe views are not citable as reliable sources.

Yet, the fact that he is a "noted conspiracy theorist" is precisely why he *is* a reliable source when it comes to 9/11 conspiracy theories. In fact, he is cited a full *9* times in the main 9/11 Conspiracy Theories article, linked to in the Flight 77 conspiracy section.

Reverts by User:VegitaU and User:A_Quest_For_Knowledge are examples of WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. 97.104.226.129 (talk) 14:33, 3 August 2009 (UTC)