Talk:Spanish colonization of the Americas

Colonization or conquest?

This article needs to be very, very careful. The Spanish never really colonized the new world, but conquered it. Although much of Central and South America speaks Spanish, these people are not from Spain, but are ancestors of Native Americans. Very few Spanish came to the new world, and most of those who did came as governors and left a generation or two later. The idea of Spanish colonists coming to America to settle needs to be tempered in this article, if not completely removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.90.150.79 (talk)

This is not true at all. The Spanish conquest caused huges losses to the native population due to disease and enslavement. Because cite your sources for the statement that "very few Spanish" came to the New World. A very large percentage of Latin Americans, if not the majority are "Mestizos" mixed race people of Spanish and Native Indigenous origin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.167.236.227 (talk) 18:09, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the guy above me. But there ARE people who have Spanish ancestry living in Central, South America, even Mexico. Hint hint they are called Criollos. Look it up. Oh and by the way I have parents who hail from Ecuador and they have Spanish Ancestry.

---

FYI, there are some good works on demographics for Spanish America. In general, individuals of Spanish descent represented between 10-20% of the colonial population, depending on region, urban/rural, etc. By the late 16th c. onward Indigenous people tended to account for 55-65% of the population, again varying over time and space. The remaining 25-35% would have been made up of African slaves and individuals of mixed African-indigenous-European descent. Slave ownership tended to decrease in most parts of Spanish America post-1640 (Cuba post-1770s being the major exception). Spaniards did immigrate, even by the late 16th c., many Spaniards and their families resident in the Americas claimed to be "antiguos pobladores." Spain did attempt some direct colonization after conquests. Puebla de los Angeles in Mexico was originally founded and intended to be a Spanish town settled by average Spanish labradores. What is true about the top statement is that many Spaniards never intended to STAY, nonetheless, the cost of travel and the difficulties involved led many Spanish settle permanently after arrival.

All of the below works discuss to some degree the demographics and racial profile of Spanish settlement in Mexico:

Aguirre Beltrán, Gonzalo. La Población Negra De México: Estudio Etnohistórico. Colección Fuentes Para La Historia Del Agrarismo En México. México: SRA-CEHAM, 1981.

Cope, R. Douglas. The Limits of Racial Domination: Plebeian Society in Colonial Mexico City, 1660-1720. Madison, Wis.: University of Wisconsin Press, 1994.

Martin, Cheryl English. Rural Society in Colonial Morelos. 1st ed. Albuquerque: University of New Mexico Press, 1985.

Palmer, Colin A. Slaves of the White God: Blacks in Mexico, 1570-1650. Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1976.

Restall, Matthew. Beyond Black and Red: African-Native Relations in Colonial Latin America. Albuquerque: University of New Mexico Press, 2005.

Seed, Patricia. "The Social Dimensions of Race: Mexico City 1753." Hispanic American Historical Review 62.4 (1982): 569-606. Airflorida 08:28, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Removal

removed:

- However, Spain was the first European colonial power to pass laws protecting the natives of its American colonies as early as 1542 with the Laws of the Indies ‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.› . The Laws of the Indies consisted of many regulations on the encomienda system, including its prohibition of the enslavement of the Indians and provisions for the gradual abolition of the encomienda system. It prohibited the sending of indigenous people to work in the mines unless it was absolutely necessary, and required that they be taxed fairly and treated well. It ordered public officials or clergy with encomienda grants to return them immediately to the Crown, and stated that encomienda grants would not be hereditarily passed on, but would be canceled at the death of the individual encomenderos. - - The Spaniards were committed to converting their American subjects to Christianity, often by force, and were quick to purge any native cultural practices that hindered this end. However, most initial attempts at this were only partially successful, as Native American groups simply blended Catholicism with their traditional beliefs. On the other hand, the Spaniards did not impose their language to the degree they did their religion, and the Roman Catholic Church's evangelization in Quichua, Nahuatl and Guarani actually contributed to the expansion of these American languages, equipping them with writing systems. Many native artworks were considered pagan idols and destroyed by Spanish explorers. This included the many gold and silver sculptures found in the Americas, which were melted down before transport to Europe. - - In most areas, the Natives and the Spaniards interbred, forming a Mestizo class. These and the original Americans were often required to pay taxes to the Spanish government and were expected to obey Spanish law. In other areas, the Natives stayed ethnically distinct, and continued to resist intermingling for more than two centuries. Nowadays, descendants of Native Americans (mostly of mixed ancestry), constitute a major part of the population of the countries that comprised the Spanish Empire in America (with the exception of Argentina, Uruguay, Costa Rica and the countries of the Caribbean. Several Amerindian languages, like Quechua and Guaraní, have reached rank of co-official languages in some of the countries where they are spoken. - - The accounts of the behavior of Spanish conquistadors from both inside and out were part of the source material for the stereotype of Spanish cruelty that came to be known as the Black Legend spread mostly by Protestant foes, such as the Dutch and the British. As a result of this political propaganda campaign against the Spanish, little is known outside the Hispanic world about certain Spaniards, such as the priest Bartolomé de Las Casas, who defended Native Americans against the abuses of the conquistadores. In 1542, Bartolomé de las Casas published A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies (Brevísima relación de la destrucción de las Indias). His account is largely responsible for the passage of the new Spanish colonial laws known as the New Laws of 1542, which were used in an attempt to protect the rights of native inhabitants (the governor and men sent to enforce them were killed by rebellious conquistadores). These New Laws of 1542 established a very early - compared to British or French colonies - abolishment of native slavery (see the Valladolid debate).

These paragrgraphs have nothing to do with the spanish effects on heath section it was in. Gabrielzorz 17:33, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Sections

Obviously a disconnect as one jumps from the discovery of America to an obscure, if important battle on the Great Plains, but eventually needs to be all filled in. Filled in completely this promises to be a monster of an article and eventually will need to be divided into sections. For example a Caribbean section, A Mexico and North American Section, perhaps including Florida, etc. User:Fredbauder

Since I happen to be working with two books, one on the Rio Grande and one on the Yucatan I'll see if I can put a summary here and detailed info into New Mexico, Texas and Yucatan articles and see how it goes. User:Fredbauder

Removal of paragraph

I removed this paragraph:

Nowadays, the descendants of the native Americans constitute the base of the population of the countries that long ago comprised of the Spanish Empire in America, excepting Argentina, Uruguay and the Caribbean ones. Two of the Amerindian languages, Quechua and the Guarani have reached rank of co-officials in Latin American countries. There was Latin American President from Indian origen, as Benito Júarez, in Mexico or Alejandro Toledo, in Peru.

It doesn't speak to the subject of the article. The first sentence could be usable but it would be better to list the countries where it is true, since the article does not yet mention all the countries which were once part of the Spanish empire. Rmhermen 18:49 May 12, 2003 (UTC)

Further removals

Removed:

They did these things to 'civilize' the Amerindians. The Amerindians used quipu and adored many gods. The Crown felt that without a phonetic writing system, set religion, and steady economy, the Amerindians were mere savages. They imposed Catholic religion on the Amerindians to begin 'civilized living'.

It is redundant and I am not certain it is exact.

Their idols were ruined by inspectors and their goods were traded to Europe, for the Amerindian signature design of geometrical designs were much different from the realistic figurative art of European countries.

I'd remove this as well -- Error 02:17, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Encomiendas

Encomiendas were not tracts of land as the article suggests. They were instead grants of forced native labor, which could be used on different tracts of land and for other purposes in constructing the colonial insfrastructure. Unless I overlooked this, there is no mention of Hispanicized blacks (free and enslaved) who took part in all phases of "Spanish" colonization of the Americas, who were part of the Spanish world well before 1530 (well before the reconquest in fact)---this is not new information among scholars of colonial Latin American history. Finally, the sources listed are sparse and outdated. The article is a good start, but still needs much, much more work. Kemet 28 March 2006

'Effect on Natives' pro-Spanish bias

"However, Spain was the first European colonial power to pass laws protecting the natives of its American colonies..."

Because they were the nicest colonial power, it seems to read. Of course, the reason the Spanish were the first to pass such laws is becaue they were the first to colonize -- in 1542, there was no real European presense in the New World except the Spanish! Further, to imply that the Encomienda system was beneficial to the natives is flatly incorrect.

The last two paragraphs are the worst, though; I don't need to explain why, just take a look at them! The author doesn't describe Spanish treatment of natives, he tries to rationalize it, and to explain why the Spanish have an undeserved bad rep. Regardless of the accuracy, these items don't belong here, and they clearly reveal the bias of the author. --Xiaphias 04:35, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, yes. Spaniards have an undeserved bad reputation. Just take a look at the Black Legend article. Having said that and taking in account that what you've read is true, a colonial empire is still a colonial empire, with inequality, slavery, torture, death, mysery and this kind of stuff going on there... Just if later colonial powers had been better instead of plainly worse...

The Portuguese Empire

I think it's stupid to include an anachronistic map showing Portuguese possessions as being part of "pretense" Spanish overseas territories.... Spain never really controlled Brazil, even under Phillipine rule in portugal, Portuguese colonies were still under Portuguese rule. Besides most of the land that comes in pink wasn't even settled in the 16th/17th century it was much later that it was settled and conquered to Portugal and recognised by Spain in the Treaty of Madrid in 1750. --85.138.18.45 13:50, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

"Clean-up" header still needed?

A substantial amount of work appears to have been done on this article since April 2006, when "clean-up" header was posted. Does it still need this header? While there is still work, the article appears as good as most WPedia articles. Is it time to remove the "clean-up" header? NorCalHistory 18:25, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I concur with the removal of the clean-up header. NorCalHistory 23:25, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Seocnded. errr, thirded? 158.165.5.52 20:40, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

There's no such "Americas"

Concerning the use of the term "Americas" There's no such Americas. America is the whole Continent. The usage of the term America to refer to the United States is wrong, imperialist and it leaves behind the other countries with a vast richer culture. This article should be called "Spanish colonization of America" and so the contents should be changed in this sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Robertico (talk • contribs)

Regardless of whether the term "America" should be used to refer to the United States or not, I think you are interpreting the phrase "the Americas" in a different sense than the one that is most commonly used. Your interpretation takes "the Americas" to mean "two Americas - the United States and the rest of the continent". The sense that I think is most commonly understood is "two Americas - North America and South America". If you use this sense of the phrase "the Americas", then there is nothing objectionable about it. --Richard 07:13, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Don't forget Central America!--Lord Kinbote 14:32, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Needs finishing touches, Citations

I cleaned up the page a bit. Broke a line after the Spanish Colonization table, and switched the European Colinization article to a link at the See Also section. It's a lot cleaner now but it seems to be missing something... Maybe another picture, or an into paragraph? -Rich

No neutral article.

Compare this article with the british colonization article or any other about the european colonization.

This could be the most biased artical on wikipedia. "While native culture was marred by Spanish proselytization..." or "and the cruelty and exploitation of native labourers and imported African slaves is undeniable, regardless of the putatively noble intentions and efforts of the Spanish crown and elements of the Catholic Church" this artical is extreamely anti-catholic. It clearly violates the neutrality policy.

Well, to be fair, Spanish occupation was far more brutal that that of the other two European powers. France and England desired colonization; Spain desired conquest. --141.157.106.115 13:06, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

== In the Composer's Defense. The composer of this "biased" article was merely stating the facts. The Roman Catholic church was, as a whole, quite brutal in its imposition of an alien faith on the indigenous peoples of Mesoamerica and in South America. One has only to review the Spanish post-conquest codices to find evidence of the barbarity of the friars, and their exportation of the Holy Inquisition to the shores of the New World in the name of their god. To state that this article violates the neutrality policy is to ignore the very testimony of Spanish friars themselves. RCP —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.3.48.40 (talk) 22:44, 11 April 2007 (UTC).

In the Composer's Defence: In researching an essay on this very topic, it is hard to ignore that there are two very different points of view in research. If anyone has come accross Bartolome de las Casas' "A short account of the Destruction of the Indies", it will be noticed that there is a very strong Anti-Catholic bias in this account. As very little written evidence exists, the only evidence either comes from Spanish missions, thus a rosey picture of the conquest is painted, or those Westerners who saw it as brutal, thus a brutal picture is painted. Since the Inca, Mayans and Aztecs were largely illiterate, there is very little in terms of written records to know exactly what happened.

colonization, conquest, ideology

Notions of conquest and colonization do not have to be mutually exclusive. It will be important to define what these terms mean when used in this article. Generally, conquests tend to be historical phenomena with a major millitary dimension of shorter duration than projects of colonization. From a historian's point of view, the ethnic identities of today's inhabitants of these lands are not necessarily useful as testimony to specific instances of both conquest and colonization as they occurred in history. Complex and particular historical questions cannot be evaluated by a single conclusion about the effects of a 500-year span of history. To be sure, different interpretations and historical models of conquest and/or colonization would result when considering 16th-century Yucatan, 17th-century Potosí, or 18th-century Baja California.

Moreover, it is very difficult to to postulate uniform and unified attitudes and policies of large institutions, like the church or the state. The church was divided systemically both horizontally (holy orders, administrative departments, etc.) and vertically (hierarchy of priests, bishops, archbishops, etc.). For example, holy orders competed with each other in the Americas. Clergy exhibited different attitudes toward native peoples. That is not to say that brutality and oppression were absent. However, generalizations that cover so much intellectual territory can never be completely categorical without cheapening the complexity and nuance of history.

I believe bias in some sections of this article reflects important ideological world views of recent times, and they should be removed. However, I suggest that a section be added on how notions of the Spanish conquest (or Spanish colonization) are used in modern times to support of different ideologies (such as Che Guevara's "mestizo culture" or liberation theology). 71.146.78.30 06:59, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget that england also desired to establish trade and slavery here too!

Gabrielzorz 17:17, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Albrech's image

Caption should briefly describe map

Is there any reason Albrecht's Spanish colonization of the Americas image isn't being used in this article? The table of colors is quite large, but would make for a nice table. —Viriditas | Talk 21:36, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

This map is POV - it implies that the Portuguese Empire was part of the Spanish Empire. That was never the case, even if there was a period between 1580 and 1640 that both countries and empires had the same kings, in a Personal Union of the crowns in the period called of the Iberian Union. If maps of the Spanish Empire continue to push this POV, then maps of the Portuguese Empire will begin to push the opposite POV - that the Spanish Empire was part of the Portuguese one in those 60 years! The Ogre 14:11, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Come on, The Ogre, you know that is not true. Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.55.201.56 (talk) 18:05, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

"Columbus conquers Hispaniola" passage

The whole section is remarkably poor. Bias probably could be tuned down and the quotation marks floating around could all be eliminated.

138.16.40.158 02:43, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

More black legend and Anglo propaganda

This article:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080320205224.htm

Is very interesting because it shows how the populations under the Spanish empire have survived to this day in the majority, mixed or otherwise. The Anglo model has been sadly much more different. Where are these native populations in North America and what per centage of the present population do they represent? Because they happen to be the majority in Latin America.

But then read this article and then this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_colonization_of_the_Americas

This is a shame for Wiki, a place of propaganda and big lies. Where is the intelligence of the people behind these articles. Why is Mexico full of people of Amerindian ancestry and the US and Canada so empty of the same people. Where did the real genocide take place. I am not going to change anything, but someone should. This is a great example of the nature of the people behind these lines, mainly ignorant Americans who are among the worst genocidal peoples on earth (built their nation upon the anihilation of the Native American peoples) and love ignorance or propaganda. But people are believing you less and less. Anyone can see what I mean in the two articles and in this discussion page. These Americans who had a South Africa like society until the very 1970s. What a bunch of genocidal liars. Jan.

Maunus has deleted these comments and the link to the article. Is there anything that is not true. Is it not about time that reality is decribed the way it should. Again, just read this article, and then the English colonization one, for a comparison. Who do they want to cheat. People are not that stupid anymore. Take a look at the English or North European model of colonization in America, Australia, South Africa, and then at the Iberian or Spanish one and then again read the articles that I have mentioned, and the Spanish one is far from good but in comparison a wonder from heaven. This degree of progaganda is intolerable. Northern Europeans and North Americans have been getting away with it for centuries, but people are not that stupid anymore. This article should be deleted or written again, if objetive criteria are to be taken into account. Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.153.158.30 (talk) 12:14, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Terrible, terrible article. What a shame for Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.24.202.216 (talk) 03:01, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Something could certainly be said on the Spanish approach to the indigenous people, but the reason Mexico still has a high proportion of indigenous people compared to America is that before European conquest the indigenous population in Mexico was far higher than anywhere to the north--with cities and complex societies that dwarfed anything northwards. Mexico was the demographic and cultural center of indigenous North America. Compare--Spain also colonized and ruled Texas for a long time. The indigenous population within Spanish ruled Texas was next to zero by the time of the Texas Revolution. A better case might be made for California or Florida, and something could certainly be said on the basic approach indigenous peoples by the Spanish vs the British, French, etc. Still, the notion that the present-day proportion of people of indigenous ancestry in Mexico means the Spanish were nicer is flawed. Demographics is much more important. Mexico was able to sustain epidemics with mortality rates of 95% repeatedly and still have a relatively large population. Pfly (talk) 03:50, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

This is a terrible page

• This is a terrible page. It needs much more information to cover the enormous expanse of Spanish colonization. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.10.172.155 (talk) 04:19, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Recent change in summary

Hi. The Spanish cavalry and their forces were very tenacious, but common sense dictates that the "Conquerors" of America were the native inhabitants. There were almost a million native auxiliaries fighting the civil war. Without these forces, the Spanish simply could have not colonized America without the whole of the European continent. The real catalyst for the fall of the great Empires were the Muslim cannons they used. In coherence to that fact, their sloops or brigs (boats) were their real weapons.

1) Copper spears in closed ranks could effectively stop and dismount cavalry. To be successful, volleys of cannon fire or musket fire would be needed. To advance costs casualties---to effectively do this without the attrition factor against repetative guerilla tactics, multitudes of Indian auxiliaries would be needed for skirmishing.

2) Atlatls could penetrate chain mail at short ranges and steel armor if the spear is used as a long range weapon---gaining massive momentum from the pendulum-type swaying of the flexible spear.

3) The Mapuche learned to wrought iron and use horses and cannons effectively. Their use of horses to simply move infantry allowed the implementation of the local, over total superiority which, in turn, allowed them to cause some 90,000 native and Spanish deaths---along with countless civilians from both sides. In fact, they were one of the most effective wagers of war who ever lived... Ex: They had these guys called "Clown soldiers" who were used to simply to lure fire to cost the Spanish $$$. I forget said, "These Indians are in the habit of doing clownish things: throwing themselves to the ground, dancing, advancing---suddenly retreating." They had special soldiers who had hooks on their spears to carry away dismounted knights. Francisco Nunez (the happy captive) reported that the massive Mapuche clubs could "fell a horse".

4) Slings, which used very dense lead-type stones, could crush a steel helmet and break a sword in half from 50 feet away.

5) Bronze, stone, or copper maces were used very effectively against Caballeros (knights).

6) In the Amazon, the warriors would often lure them into the swamps and ambush their barges after pouring blood in the vicinity (crocs).

7) The Zacoteca long bows were extremely effective. They could produce tremendous velocity because they used their feet as the left arm and their arms as the right arm. I don't know if they could could penetrate steel, though.

8) Even with the natives, they lost against the Chichimecas.

9) Wave after wave of Spaniards were killed in trying to subdue the Maya. Only after they recieved help from the Xiu Maya (some 40,000) did they manage to subdue the Chichen Itza.

10) Cinnabar covered darts or "dust-bombs" could easily poison any soldier causing massive distortians in the senses before hand---eventually killing them.

11) Hornets could cause a massive delay in time and morale if they're exposed to crossing a hornet-covered bridge (not fatal).

Basically, thats it. InternetHero (talk) 17:22, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

South-east United States and even further north

The article omits any mention of Florida or parts further north. A colony, Pensacola was founded and abandoned. St. Augustine, Florida the first continuously-settled European colony in the future United States was founded. Several landfalls, territorial claims, and attempts at colonization were made (cf. Lucas Vázquez de Ayllón). In fact, the entirety of North America was considered by Spain to be Spanish by virtue of the Treaty of Tordesillas until a intervention by King Francis I of France in 1533. Of course, at this time there was still some doubt if these lands were part of Asia or a new continent. Does an expansion of this information belong in this article, some other article, or should it be a new article? patsw (talk) 02:20, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Some relevant articles that come to mind, on the northern areas of Spanish colonization: Spanish Florida, Spanish Texas, Santa Fe de Nuevo México, Alta California, Commandancy General of the Provincias Internas... and certainly others. Of course the page could be expanded with more info on areas to the south as well. Pfly (talk) 14:44, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

What does "bum of the people" mean?

I was tempted to remove it, but would hate to impose my ignorance on others. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will make some of the fixes mentioned in this discussion page! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.138.93 (talk) 04:16, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

INFOBOX

should there be an infobox ? 69.157.68.212 (talk) 23:05, 23 August 2009 (UTC) UNknown