Talk:Salvation

Talk:Salvation/Archive 1

Re: "...Mormon / LDS view"

To include Mormons in the christian section of the article is incorrect. The only group discussed in that article who would claim otherwise are the mormons themselves. Mormons pull some common ideas from Christianity, but then so do Voodoo and Santeria. So if Mormons are included in the Christian section, then the two aforementioned religions should be included as well. The other option would be to create a new section (I would have no idea what to call it). That section could include (for lack of a better word) "fringe" groups who hold to doctrines that are so far removed from christian belief that the the doctrines nullify each other. ... The point made regarding 'without works faith is dead' is fallacial. Those verses do not refer to salvation, they refer to sanctification. It is true that after salvation our work is not yet done. After salvation the process of being made holy starts (i.e., sanctification). We are called to strive for holiness ("Be holy, as your Father in Heaven is holy."), and this process can only start once the barrier of sin is removed...

This next point is not really related directly to the topic, but it refers to comments made about the topic...

If I was trying to make a point regarding salvation to a Jew, I would have to speak from the Old Testament for it to carry any weight with him/her, since Jews don't recognize the New Testament.. By the same token, a mormon trying to make a doctrinal point to Christians would need to use the Old and New Testaments only. Using the book of mormon to support an argument made to a Christian does not carry any weight, since we believe that Joseph Smith made it all up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Virtua67 (talk • contribs) 01:27, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

What?! Let's not think too muck like Sheri Shepard from the view. --Firefly322 (talk) 14:54, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Anonymous Christian

Need to add something on Anonymous Christian--Firefly322 (talk) 16:00, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Arminianism section change suggested

Arminianism section of the Salvation article appears to me some misinformation.

"However, John Wesley taught that continued backsliding could inevitably lead to loss of faith, and consequently salvation, if left uncorrected."

This was not Wesley's position. Wesley's clearly taught that committing sin was the grounds for loss of faith which is lose of salvation. Lose of faith didn't require continued sin accord to him.

I will drop back a bit later with citations for what I think is the correct position and what I suggest the article should be changed to. In the mean time perhaps there can be some input on this. bobmutch (talk) 02:35, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Judaism changes by SLR and me

This edit shows the removal by Slrubenstein of an introductory paragraph to the Judaism section written by me. Wheras my version tries to be categorical and logical in treating the concept within Judaism, Slr's version simply states that "Death and the question of life after death are not contral[sic] concerns in Judaism." I don't know if this is actually true, though I know Slr will come up sooner or later with a source to support this statement. Certainly Judaism has the concept of Olam Haba, and the Mishnah states, "this world is like a lobby before the World-To-Come. Prepare yourself in the lobby so that you may enter the banquet hall." SLr has not provided a source yet, so sourcing must not be the issue. Hence, he apparent dislikes using the basic abstract categorizations of salvation's dominant aspects, or even the relation of salvation to Judaism itself — which would appear to belie its inclusion in this article. Note, his statement "not particularly c[e]ntral" does not indicate that it lacks importance. Further, he redirects his own language with a "nevertheless" introduction to Pharisee-derived treatments, which appear to be quite, for lack of a better term, universalist in nature. Slr, why the redirection? I'm sure there is a better, more encyclopedic way of handling it. -Stevertigo 22:54, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Lede changes by SLR

I like SLR's decision to split a compound sentence into two, and qualify the judgment concept as belonging to particular religions. My only issue here is the removal of the link to conceptions of God, and this is largely due to the fact that its quite often more appropriate to refer to "x's concept of God" rather than to "the God of x" where x indicates a religion. Its a bit of a tangential issue within this context, but as a rule I would prefer to make a habit of linking to the concepts article. -Stevertigo 22:57, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Special Salvation

I changed this to a less damning explanation, removing some POV words. Let me know if it is generally accepted. Joshua Ingram (talk) 00:09, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Hi Josh. The statement you refer to says

"The concept of special salvation refers to all theological doctrines that assert a one true faith, and that others will not be saved."

You seem to suggest that there should be a qualifier at the end, and while I may disagree with your choice of concepts and the language used to describe them, I may not disagree with the idea that there might be some qualification added there. But changing the statement to..

"The concept of special salvation refers to all theological doctrines that assert a one true faith, and that others will not be saved, unless they repent."

or

"The concept of special salvation refers to all theological doctrines that assert a one true faith, and that others will not be saved, unless they repent of their sins."

..doesn't work and here is why: This article deals with the general concept of salvation [from death], as adminstered by God. We aren't at this point dealing with more subtle aspects such as "salvation from sin," which obviously does require "repentance." Thus "repentance" is used here as a condition, not just good advice to get one unslaved from sin, and thus "salvation as long as one repents of sin" falls under the concept of "conditional salvation," not special salvation.

And more importantly, the usage of "repentance" in this context would put it within particular theological frameworks wherin it is just a theological codeword for "change your religion" and otherwise has little actual meaning. To explain, consider that according to certain concepts, belief in any "non-[particular religious tradition]" is a "sin." In this context, "repentance" does not refer to "repentance of sin" but rather to "repentance of belief," to which is applied the concept of "conversion of faith." Asserting that salvation is attached to a particular belief system is actually quite "special."

Joshua wrote: "[The current text] sounds like predestination."

It has nothing to do with predestination; that deals with free will. This deals with who gets saved and how. In the most universal sense, "getting saved" requires being good. That is all. In "special salvation" concepts, the requirements are more particular; one has to have the right Bible, the right underwear, etc. Thus your choice of the term "repentance" or even "repentance of sin" would be only inaccurate, if it actually even fit into the categorical descriptions we are using to describe "salvation" and who recieves it. So if you can deal with the above, and then consider another way to expand upon the section, I will give it my honest consideration. Regards. -Stevertigo 08:14, 25 April 2009 (UTC)-Stevertigo 08:14, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

After reading your explanation, I'm starting to agree with you, except for the part about "'getting saved' requires being good." But that is POV on my part, and shouldn't be included (my bad). However, I do think something needs to be added. Maybe "others will not be saved, unless they meet the requirements of a specific one true faith"? Joshua Ingram 12:11, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Well the general idea that most people have is that really bad people cannot be saved. True, its not always just a matter of "good" and "bad," but those are the very generalized concepts. The language "..others will not be saved, unless they meet the requirements of [that] specific.." is exact, albeit keep in mind it's a general formula attaching one's own belief to one's own prescription for the fate of someone else. The "special" category simply covers all beliefs which are rather particular and not generalistic or unversalist such as that such consider salvation [as] based on one's 'deeds in life' (sin), indicating the "content of their character," (goodness, evil). These are not particular at all, and it would be hard to find any religion that didn't promote the view that good and evil deeds are directly relevant to God or Heaven.

Beyond that is the concept of good and evil character, such as effects how someone might get along (or not) in Heaven, even well after "salvation" (such that affects their "ultimate salvation"). That one is interesting, and different theologies deal with it differently. Anyway, regards, -Stevertigo 20:32, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Fictional redemption

An example of redemption using Darth Vader. Seriously? 99.240.146.252 (talk) 04:54, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I removed it, at least for now, even while considering that it might belong in a future "salvation in fiction" section. It's an extremely good example of science fiction treating salvation, and even better, it's an example where the apparent salvific result is not at all faithful to either truth or reality. Though Lucas, to his credit, was trying to deal with the impossible paradoxes regarding the salvation of some among his generation, and in any case his fictionalized product isn't any more unrealistic than many religions' special salvation doctrines. -Stevertigo 18:44, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

AP edits

The following paragraphs were added by User:Afaprof01. I removed it for now, to discuss it on its merits. AfP also removed the "purpose" paragraph and I restored it to the lede, and will discuss its issues here as well.

Salvation in its nature must answer to the plight of humanity as it actually is. It must offer individuals redemption from slavery to sin, forgiveness from guilt, reconciliation for alienation and "renewal for a marred image of God." <ref name="Stagg"> . ''New Testament Theology.'' Broadman Press, 1962. ISBN 0805416137</ref>{{Rp|80|date=June 2009}} World religions share the notion that humanity needs salvation from its present condition since humanity does not manifest its purpose of existence. Author Ernest Valea says three important aspects must be analyzed in assessing the meaning of salvation in those religions: the resources needed for attaining salvation the actual way of getting saved and the meaning of being saved. <ref name="Valea"/> {{quote|…some religions claim that salvation can be attained by using only inner human resources. They demand the use of meditation, accumulation of wisdom, asceticism, rituals, good deeds, etc. Other religions state that humans can be saved only through the grace granted by an external personal agent. This agent can be God, a ''bodhisattva'', an ''avatar'', etc. One’s duty is to recognize the impossibility of being saved by one's own efforts, and therefore accept grace unconditionally. <ref name="Valea">Valea, Ernest. "Salvation and eternal life in world religions." Comparative Religion. 13 June 2009. http://www.comparativereligion.com/salvation.html#10</ref>}}

There are a few problems with the text. It is sourced, for one, but to whom? More importantly, while it has elements of conceptuality that are necessary for inclusion in a lede, it gets into specifically nuanced and loaded concepts that are not encyclopedic, and must be attributable to the authors alone. Ledes can and thus must be written in a conceptual, general, flow-chart way, such as to outline all of the relevant concepts, with a little bit about how they interrelate, without getting into particular details and notions.

What we can do, however is deal with some of the concepts. The one that stands out is redemption, and this is something that I admit is a bit lacking in the current version. The important thing here is to deal with the concept of redemption as its usually linked to salvation —not just quoting particular statements as expressed from the point of view of particular theologies —many of which have certain issues, such as that they may implicitly assert divine precedence, ownership, or even others' inadequacy or dispensation. -Stevertigo 21:41, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Stagg, Frank turned red due to my error. I neglected the parentheses in the title. The correct Wiki link is Frank Stagg (theologian).

A critic of a lede should consider rewriting it rather than summarily replacing it with unsourced new material.Afaprof01 (talk) 04:38, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Responses by SV.

Good to know Frank has an article! Baptist apparently. Now how about Ernest Valea? And is this comment about "critic of a lede" coming from someone who just added a bunch of POV commentary to the lede, and removed certain non-commentary like things from it? Your concept of sources is only valid if you consider WP:WEIGHT, and it is due to weight that I deal with conceptual articles in a conceptual way. This is not to say that statements shouldn't have sources, but rather to say that articles about concepts require a conceptual approach that does not allow quotations of particular individuals to dominate in the place of good NPOV writing that covers the topic. I note that you have not taken up my olive branch about dealing with the "repentance" and "redemption" issues. You should do that promptly.

And even though your selections were somewhat generalistic, there are also special-theology issues with them, such that prohibit them from dominating the lede, regardless of how "sourced" the quotes are. Special theology views, for example, present certain conceptual paradoxes that are difficult to deal with in accord with (holy) NPOV. The first is the dubious notion that God loves just them, and noone else. Another fishy notion within special theologies claims that anyone can be saved if they just "repent," or "believe" —there have been real human demons that just don't deserve "salvation," regardless of whether they do either.

And in any case, going back to article issues, does this terse "repent" concept indicate a repentance of sin, or (more particularly) repentance of sinful acts, or (even) repentance of "sinful belief" (ie. "you need to convert to our religion now")? Many theologians are notable for their conceptual facility, but in any case to associate salvation::repentance of sin → conversion to the way we think is not particularly clever, interesting, or NPOV, and therefore needs to be isolated.

A while ago, Josh (above) wanted to amend a phrase thusly (underlined):

"The concept of special salvation refers to all theological doctrines that assert a one true faith, and that others will not be saved, unless they repent".

I noted that this view about conditional salvation upon "repentance" is often tied to a view of salvation upon "conversion of belief." Thus making it problematic, let alone unsuitable. In other words it turns a general conceptual statement into a special salvation concept. Again, special salvation concepts don't belong in the lede, or anywhere else without qualification, classification, categorization, and containment.

So in the lede we have to be extremely conceptual only, and using a concept cloud might work well here to deal with that. No coloration or leanings toward particular theolgies is allowed —we have to separate particular theologies from the concept of salvation, period.

You also raised an issue about my edit with regard to the angels clause saying "Removed "angel" erroneous statement. Angels never were human beings. They are specially created beings. cf. Psalm 8:5." A wonderful comment on your part to be sure because it addresses several conceptual problems on your part, and only one on mine. Mine first:

1. There is an issue with the phrase as it previously was written, and needs to be clarified, probably in the form of questions that deal with its two dimensions: 1) Do former human beings become angels? 2) If so, is this transmigration an "automatic" or "manual" process?
2. Your assertion that the statement you removed was "erroneous" is an opinion based on an interpretation, and deferring to your view alone would violate NPOV. In fact it shows your view to be *Adventist, and a particularly uncommon one at that. Your citation of Psalm 8:5, while interesting, is too interpretive to be regarded without question (what in the Bible isn't?), and, coincidentally, cannot be sensibly inferred from the passage. I quote Psalm 8 in full:

O LORD, our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger. When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

• Note: "made [man] [..] lower than the angels" does not directly imply that "the angels" were also similarly "made," rather it means simply that man (on Earth) is put in a station that is "a little lower" than that of "the angels" (in Heaven). In fact "the angels" in this context is a poetic term, and the phrase, passage, and even book of Psalms itself should be interpreted to some degree from a poetic view.

• Further, the concept that human beings —made of "clay" and "spirit" —are only "a little lower" than "the angels" should also tell you something that contradicts the view you espouse. In any case, the concept of angelology ←→ salvation needs to be dealt with, not just because most people have a very straightforward fetus → person → angel concept in their theology, but because deferring to your view alone would violate NPOV. Where exactly, by the way, do Adventists say people go when they get "saved?"-Stevertigo 07:59, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Continued..

Responses from AFAProf01

Thank you, User:Stevertigo, for taking the time to explain your reasoning. I must admit to finding some of your comments terse and sarcastic and don't believe I deserved that.

I don't know anything about Adventists and can't answer your question.

Re: angels. Am in total disagreement that such misinformation that is completely unsourced and is at best urban legend should be in this article, much less in the lede. The claim of "most people" belief does not justify placement. I cannot find even one citation to back up that proportion. I've always found "most people" to be a Weasel Phrase. Unless the following credible sources are wrong, then the severe criticism you leveled on my effort is uncalled-for:

• Angels are regarded as supernatural beings organized before God in a hierarchy (e.g., Dan. 7: 10; 9: 21). <ref>W. R. F. BROWNING. "angels." A Dictionary of the Bible. 1997. Encyclopedia.com. 17 Jun. 2009 .</ref>

• "Angels" (i.e., "messengers" of God) we ordinarily understand a race of spiritual beings of a nature exalted far above that of man, although infinitely removed from that of God—whose office is "to do him service in heaven" (Smith Bible Dictionary)

• "Angel": name of spiritual beings created by God but superior in nature to man. Some ancient Church fathers held that angels were created "before the heavens and all material things." (A Catholic Dictionary By William Edward Addis, Thomas Arnold p.25)

Seems like you are more concerned about your legalistic views of microcosms (viz., angels when you put a totally unsourced and spurious by all but folk lore standards) and gag at gnats in the name of NPOV violations. At some point, a greater good mentality needs to prevail when someone with good intentions tries to move the intro off the proverbial dime and it ignites an uncalled for flare of accusations of wrong intentions and ineptness.

I believe you to be a very talented and knowledgeable editor. I hope it's my misperception and not your intent that I sense a real negative, critical attitude in your comments (to me and to others). I am not overly sensitive and have fairly thick skin as an academician, but to me your critiques have been quite offensive. I respectfully request a change in your approach to sincere efforts. I'm a volunteer just as you are.

Meanwhile, let's do our best to end up with the best lede possible and believe the best of editing colleagues until someone proves us wrong.

• Be welcoming
• Be polite
• Assume good faith
• Avoid personal attacks

Regards, Afaprof01 (talk) 22:32, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Responses (Afaprof01 in quotes, me after)

• "Thank you, User:Stevertigo, for taking the time to explain your reasoning."- Thank you Afapro, for joining me in discussing your changes. You (AfP) listed a few civility concepts. Keep in mind that prompt and open discussion of your edits is one of them.
• "I must admit to finding some of your comments terse and sarcastic and don't

believe I deserved that." - I disagree. I undid your changes because they were untenable, and asked you to discuss them. You then chose to restore your changes instead of dealing with me directly. I usually keep my sharpness in appropriate degree to the requirements of the situation.

• "I don't know anything about Adventists and can't answer your question." - Your degree of theological understanding suggests otherwise, such that would likely include a similar understanding of the major denominational variances. But I will not argue with your claim.
• "Re: angels. Am in total disagreement that such misinformation that is completely unsourced and is at best urban legend should be in this article, much less in the lede." - Keep in mind that we are discussing the "salvation" of human beings from death. This is the concept. If you are from a particular theological background, such that rejects the concept of an afterlife, and thus you use the term "salvation" itself to mean only "salvation from the slavery of sin," then I suggest you consider this a warning, that I will seek to have you blocked for a week to give you time to consider our concepts of neutrality, and whether or not you can write in a manner that is compatible with them. Consider for a moment WP:CLOUD. At issue is whether the current wording is accurate, or whether certain concepts don't fit, or have other issues. This is not just a manner of expressive writing. The cloud is a way for people to collaborate in writing a neutral article.
• "The claim of "most people" belief does not justify placement." - It does, for the simple reason that "most people" are not idiots (WP:AGF), and two, this encyclopedia is written for "most people," not those who hold particular theological notions.
• "I've always found "most people" to be a Weasel Phrase. Unless the following credible sources are wrong, then the severe criticism you leveled on my effort is uncalled-for" - Again, you are trying to use special and only tertially notable sources in combination with attacks on my arguments as a way to promote your particular views. Its not going to happen.
• "I cannot find even one citation to back up that proportion." - Nonsense, and I've dealt with this above. Salvation, in this concept refers to people going to "Heaven", ("Heavenly salvation") wherin the term "angels" appears to be somewhat relevant. You give a few example of sources that deal what might be called "proto-angels":

1. "Angels are regarded as supernatural beings organized before God in a hierarchy (source above)": - Scriptural source?
2. "(i.e., "messengers" of God) we ordinarily understand a race of spiritual beings of a nature exalted far above that of man, although infinitely removed from that of God—whose office is "to do him service in heaven" (Smith Bible Dictionary)" - Note that "race" here is a bit obtuse, and gets into specious angel-mythological territory like the nephillim etc.
3. "name of spiritual beings created by God but superior in nature to man. Some ancient Church fathers held that angels were created "before the heavens and all material things." (A Catholic Dictionary) - Note that "some ancient Church fathers" =/= Scripture.

• "Seems like you are more concerned about your legalistic views of microcosms (viz., angels when you put a totally unsourced and spurious by all but folk lore standards) and gag at gnats in the name of NPOV violations." - Hm. I know there is a point here, but I cannot figure it out. Perhaps you could restate it in more clear terms?
• "At some point, a greater good mentality needs to prevail when someone with good intentions tries to move the intro off the proverbial dime and it ignites an uncalled for flare of accusations of wrong intentions and ineptness." - This sounds like a threat, and if any comments I have made about removing your additions have sounded like personal attacks, I apologise. But in reality, you are not going to win any arguments about "greater good" if you don't discuss your additions, and can't keep them at a high-level of conceptualness, such as to fly over any localising theologies.
• "I believe you to be a very talented and knowledgeable editor." - Thank you. I likewise sense in your choice of additions a serious thoughtfulness for the subject matter, and indeed, I consider your submission to be quite relevant. Please separate my criticism of your behaviour, from your editing, and these from rejecting the relevance of your expressed theological views.
• "I hope it's my misperception and not your intent that I sense a real negative, critical attitude in your comments (to me and to others)." - Do not confuse "negative" with "critical," "attitude" with "conduct," and "comments that are directed at concepts" with "attacks on your person."
• "I am not overly sensitive and have fairly thick skin as an academician, but to me your critiques have been quite offensive." - Please indicate any personal attacks I have made to the appropriate dispute resolution forum.
• "I respectfully request a change in your approach to sincere efforts. I'm a volunteer just as you are." - This is my request for you as well. And I am not a "volunteer," I am a lifer. -Stevertigo 00:56, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Response from AFAProf01

I made an AGP effort and now end up with your "warning, that I will seek to have you blocked for a week to give you time to consider our concepts of neutrality, and whether or not you can write in a manner that is compatible with them." I choose not to play your game any further. It is sheer arrogance.

Does this mean you don't want to discuss your edits with regard to redemption on their merits? I was actually looking forward to that. For purpose of disclosure, there was an error in the statement that you quoted that I just now corrected, with underline. Otherwise, I am sorry to see you have taken such an obtuse approach, such that I have to refer you to NPOV for review at your discretion. The warning, while perhaps overplayed, simply indicated that you are operating under certain inaccurate conceptions about how sources and NPOV writing interact, such that all of this discussion has been only to serve the advancement of your views. The angel issue was serendipitous, as it revealed your agenda. Again, if you have an issue with my comments, we can take this to a WP:DRR if you like. -Stevertigo 01:50, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Salvation is a divine PROMISE bind to Allah in Quran

Islam teach about the ORIGINAL GRACE[20:122] NOT original sin

Then his Lord chose him(Adam) for HIS grace,and turned to him with mercy and guided him[20:122]

Because(Mankind)was created WITH the ORIGINAL FORGIVENESS,ORIGINAL GRACE Of Allah Quran [20:122],NOT original sin

All Over the Quran Muslims Male and Female and ANY ONE whom believe in Allah then remain steadfast,[2:62][5:69], will have the Divine promise and blessing binding to Allah to enter Eternal Heavenly Garden of Eden/paradise with their parents, wives, and children in the presence of their Lord (Allah, The All-mighty)e.g[9:72],[13:23-24 ],etc

The Qur’an (in it’s own words) for example announces:

•Allah الله has PROMISED male and Female believers gardens with rivers flowing under them, remaining in them timelessly, forever, and fine dwellings in the Gardens of Eden.(9:72)

•And Allah الله never fails in His Promise(s)! (25:16, 30:6, 39:20 etc).

Gardens of Eden that they will enter, and all of their parents, wives, and children who have acted honorably. Angels will enter in to welcome them from every gate: "Peace be upon you because of your steadfastness! How wonderful is the Ultimate Abode!" (13: 23-24)……see also 40:8

•Whosoever does an evil deed, will not be requited except the like thereof; and whosoever does a righteous deed; whether male or female and is a true believer (in the Oneness of Allah, & the Qur’an), such will enter Paradise , where they will be provided/rewarded therein without limit”. {40:40}

•“.. receive the glad tidings of Paradise which you have been promised! … therein you shall have (all) that your inner-selves desire, and therein you shall have (all) for which you ask”. {41:30-31}

•“You will see (on the Day of resurrection), the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong doers) fearful of that which they have earned, and it (Allah’s Torment) will surely befall them. But those who believe (in the Oneness of Allah, and the Qur’an) and do righteous deeds (will be) in the flowering meadows of the Gardens ( Paradise ). They shall have whatsoever they desire with their Lord. That is the Supreme Grace (Success)” {42:22}

With these awesome rewards in mind, I am therefore left wondering as to whether (in accordance with your claims) you are actually receiving any of these here on earth, and/or whether the Bible even makes any such explicit promises to e.g. its female adherents. I am unaware of any, and raise this in light of for example the following Biblical statements: “ A man …. is the image and glory of God, but the woman is the glory of man. ….. Neither was man created for (the sake of) woman, but woman for man”. {1 Corinthians 11:7-9}

The Bible further emphatically states (contrary to some passionate wishes) that a total of: “ … 144,000 virgin men … who did not defile themselves with women” will ultimately be with Jesus. (All of whom being exclusively from the 12 tribes of Israel ). {Revelations 7:5-8, 14:4}…….. and the Bible gives the size of heaven as smaller than U.S

This is in line with Matthew 19:28 which again clearly indicates that in the Hereafter (as on earth (Matthew 10:5-7; 15:24 , 26)), Jesus’s role is exclusively associated with the 12 tribes of Israel

I am unaware of any Biblical passage which specifically promises “any of the gentiles”, whether males or females (even those ‘undefiled by women’), “that they will actually enter Paradise ”, and offer them anything approaching the awesome rewards announced in the Qur’an. This comparative Biblical silence on these crucial issues is ‘spiritually deflating’, and strongly indicates that there is actually “no reward in waiting” for gentiles who adhere to the Israelite’s exclusive covenant (viz. the Bible Isaac and his Blood line alone GEN 17:19)).

Please correct me if I am wrong by providing Biblical proof which explicitly states otherwise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.101.77.63 (talk) 16:08, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Christian salvation doctrine vs so called "Christian mysticism"

The article says: "In Christianity Jesus is the source of salvation and faith in his saving power is stressed."

I agree.

Please help me stress this point in article Christian mysticism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Torchrunner (talk • contribs) 02:30, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

NPOV

The first paragraph applies to Christians perhaps but not to Jews. In fact, I do not think salvation is a major issue in Judaism. I would make this article focus on the concept in Christianity. The concept is not universal, or doesn't ean the same thing to all peoples, so this is the place for a content fork - if someone wants to write about salvation in other religions they can, but this article is strong only with regards to Christianity, so why not play to its strengths. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:55, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree. The article is problematic for several reasons. Overall, there is an attempt to kumbaya all religions under the umbrella of salvation by defining it in a certain way. This sleight-of-hand is supported by reliance on secondary sources, such as MacMillan Dictionary of the Bible and Jewish Encyclopedia. Offhand, I don't recognize any Jewish *primary* sources in the references. Third, this article is very obviously against the WP principle of proportionality, which advises that the length of text in a section should match the proportional significance of that section to the topic as a whole -- is there anyone who doubts that Christianity dominates this article?

As noted by the commentator (above) on Islam, as well as my Oxford American Dictionary, salvation is essentially redemption from sin. If there is no concept of original sin (or original samsara in the case of Buddhism), then salvation is not an essential part of the religion. Redemption via the Jewish Messiah does not mean the same thing as salvation, as evidenced by the Jewish Encyclopedia article cited on this WP page.

The reader of WP would be served better by a clearer contrast between religions that are classified as "soteriological" (e.g., Christianity, Buddhism) and those which are not. This distinction crops up several times in the article (e.g., general statement about Jews focusing more on "here and now"), but is drowned out by the lead and general tone that "of course, all religions believe in salvation". L'shanah tovah. Martindo (talk) 22:32, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I wonder if Judaism considers salvation to be something that occurs annually or repeatedly (which would fit in quite nicely with what gets uttered during High Holiday services, at least in the Reform version with which I am familiar). L'shanah tova to you too. 68.32.48.221 (talk) 03:47, 20 September 2009 (UTC)