Talk:Shinto

Summary

The summary section prior to the actual article seems too long, does anyone else think it should be shortened?96.49.141.252 (talk) 07:19, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Shrines Section is pitiful

I am going to rewrite it. Let me know how it goes. Takashi Ueki (talk) 04:18, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Unclear sentence

Question, is the "area" in the sentence "if anyone is injured on the grounds of a shrine, the area affected must be ritually purified" refering to a place in the shrine grouds where someone was injured or a spot where the person was injured? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.139.73.132 (talk) 00:57, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

A brief about Dao vs Tao

The old westernized Tao pronunciation is not the currently accepted use in Publishing and Literary circles. The Library of Congress uses "Dao" as the Pinyin system is considered more accurate and ISO also has adopted it as has the UN, and most other international organizations.

...proponents for both sides of the Daoism-Taoism debate make valid arguments. Some prefer the Wade-based Taoism because it is more familiar than Daoism and because the borrowing is a fully assimilated English word anyway; such words are generally unaffected by later systems of romanization. However, many of these traditionalists will accept using pinyin for more recent Chinese borrowings. Others prefer pinyin-based Daoism because of growing acceptance internationally of Hanyu Pinyin as the standard romanization for Chinese, as reflected in other recent spelling changes such as the pinyin Beijing that replaced the Wade Pei-ching or Chinese Postal Map Romanization Peking. In conclusion, three illustrative outcomes of Daoism vs. Taoism are given from publishing, library, and Wikipedia spheres.

First, publishing houses have profit concerns about changing romanizations of foreign books. Many more English translations are titled Tao Te Ching than Dao De Jing, making the former spelling more familiar to native speakers. Academic publishers are more likely than others to adopt pinyin; Columbia University Press changed the titles of Burton Watson's translations from "Chuang Tzu" to "Zhuangzi" and from "Han Fei Tzu" to "Hanfeizi".

Second, libraries have independent concerns about revising legacy Wade-Giles catalogs to contemporary pinyin. After the Library of Congress converted to pinyin in 1997, librarian Jiajian Hu (1999:250-1) listed three reasons why they deemed Wade-Giles unsatisfactory and added four more.

   * First, it had phonetically redundant syllables.
   * Second, it failed to render the Chinese national standard pronunciation.
   * Finally, it wasn't able to show the semantic distinctions between multiple readings of single characters. …
   * The Pinyin system of romanization of Chinese is now generally recognized as standard. …
   * Most users of American libraries are now familiar with pinyin romanization. …
   * The use of pinyin romanization by libraries facilitates the exchange of data with foreign libraries. …
   * Pinyin has more access points than Wade-Giles for online retrieval.

Therefore - Dao it is. I will continue to make that change.

Finally Recruited a Real Expert

I have found a high ranking Shinto Priest to assist in the accuracy of this article. There appear to be some competing interests in getting the "new shinto" religions recognized and this should be expanded. Also I will be bringing a discussion of the Jomon period back into this as clearly Shinto did not just pop up in 300 BCE, but now with actual citations of archeological evidence. Also I noticed a great amount of editing of cited text. Clearly the citations are to quote the work accurately and if you change the text you need to either cite the work you are using or refrain from doing so. I've also noted that there seems to be a bias for either questionable or really poor online articles to be cited. Random unpublished and non peer reviewed work has no place cited in a good article. Just because somebody online said it, does not make it true. Also making major changes without any discussions or logging in is a very questionable practice. I am going to ask for limitations on this article to keep the sources clear. This has been vandalized regularly and cited material removed even though it is accurate and appropriate. There is a long way to go here, but in a couple of weeks, I will have a complete audit, with a Shinto Historian/Priest, and try to come to a near final article in 2-3 weeks. Takashi Ueki (talk) 19:57, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Four Affirmations

Bearing in mind Shinto's supposed lack of dogma, where do these "four affirmations" come from? At least a citation would be nice. If there not, then perhaps they should become "four things that the majority of Shintoists feel important" rather than "affirmations?" I don't think that they are fairly on the mark. But I am not aware of the existance of any "affirmations."--Timtak (talk) 23:52, 19 July 2008 (UTC) I found a reliable source! http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2056.html

Bad Formatting of References

Somebody needs to clean up the references in this article. "(Averbuch, Irit pp.83-87)" & similar citations appear bracketed in the main text, whereas they should go in footnotes. Also somebody has tacked a load of sources as bullet points onto the bottom of the references section, which does not make it clear what part of the text is referencing these sources.

Please see Wikipedia:Citing sources and Wikipedia:Citation templates for the proper ways to write & format citations. Weasel Fetlocks (talk) 12:02, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I've done my best to sort it out. There are a few books listed which are not directly cited. Rather than delete them, I've put them in a 'Further Reading' section, as some other articles have this. Weasel Fetlocks (talk) 12:37, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

A Conflict?

I noticed that it says that both Ko Shinto and Shrine Shinto (in the Types of Shinto section) are the oldest. Which is older, and if it is not known, could we change it to reflect that? 74.95.174.161 (talk) 04:01, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Ko Shinto means "old Shinto"; I have no idea who actually practices Ko Shinto, and I thought it was just a historical category. Shrine Shinto, which is the original form AFAIK, is distinguished from Sect Shinto, which is an attempt by the leftover structure of old State Shinto to integrate several 19th century NRMs underneath the "Shinto" banner. Shii (tock) 21:58, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Is Koshintō actually is own sect (seperate from sect shinto or shrine shinto) as this article implies? Are there any sources for the word used this way other than Yamakage? Despite being a Japanese religion major, I had never heard of Koshintō until this wikipedia article.221.23.238.148 (talk) 10:20, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

What up Japanese religion major buddy. I think Koshinto is an academic category that does not have any corresponding sect. Shii (tock) 00:36, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Hello! Always nice to see a fellow. Concerning Koshinto, do you (or anyone) think it should be included in the 'Types of Shinto' section in this article? Would it be better to perhaps talk about it in the History section? I don't want to change things I am (obviously) not an expert in.221.23.238.148 (talk) 05:21, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Downgraded to C

I am an expert in Japanese Buddhism, not Shinto, but this article is hilariously bad. A few examples from the first two paragraphs:

1. "Shinto is the Japanese religion": two citations without page numbers. One is to a popular encyclopedia of world religions-- the type of book that is notorious for misstating the nature of Far Eastern religions.
2. "Some kami ... represent ... processes": A bold claim indeed. I'd like to see a source for that.
3. Self-contradiction between "The earliest Japanese thoughts do not refer to a unified religion" and "Some differences exist between Shintoism (the ancient Shintō) and the many types of Shinto taught and practiced today". The first statement was added by me and is correct. The second, despite being sourced, is very confused (what is "Shintoism", anyway?).
4. "compound words [in Japanese] use Chinese pronunciation": Not all of them.
5. "[Shinto] is considered the native religion of Japan." By who? Hint: the category "religion" was invented by Western scholars.
6. "...to which few people give religious connotations". The previous sentence of this article was from the Western academic's POV: in this sentence, Western academics are ignored entirely. Now we need to figure out whether Wikipedia is going to stick with the modern academic analysis of Shinto or how it was popularly seen in Japan in each respective era. Pick one or the other, or even both, but don't contradict yourself.
   
   A few more prize examples of the awful state of this article:
7. "Though Shinto has no absolute commandments for its adherents outside of living 'a simple and harmonious life with nature and people', there are said to be 'Four Affirmations' of the Shinto spirit." Weasel wording for an unsourced claim, which is then repeated in full.
8. "Kagura is the ancient Shinto ritual dance of Shamanic origin." There is only one Kagura? Also, how does Shinto differ from shamanism? The previously unmentioned prehistoric shaman connection comes out of left field.
9. "the customs and values of Shinto are inseparable from those of Japanese culture" Sounds like a budding D.T. Suzuki wrote this passage.

Shii (tock) 21:52, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Look at this nonsense passage:

A more personal purification rite is the purification by water. This may involve standing beneath a waterfall or performing ritual ablutions in a river-mouth or in the sea (misogi). This practice comes from Shinto history, when the kami Izanagi-no-Mikoto first performed misogi after returning from the land of Yomi, where he was made impure by Izanami-no-Mikoto after her death. These two forms of purification are often referred to as harae (祓).

First: pick a term, misogi or harae. You can't explain both at once. Second: don't repeat just-so stories from mythology at face value. Wikipedia is supposed to cite secondary sources. Shii (tock) 00:56, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

History section?

Where is the founding date? famous Shinto priest? where is all the history? Does Shinto even qualify for being religion when there is no texts written? --Korsentry 00:36, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Well Considering almost all of Japan's native people (how big of an almost I don't know for certain) follow the ideology of shinto(and zenbudhism) I think it qualifies as a religion. There is no known founder or start date to the religion and it started off as nature worship. Unlike Christianity or other western monotheistic religions Shinto does not have a holly book of stories or what have you, that doesn't mean that the religion just started yesterday.71.94.63.105 (talk) 18:29, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Semi-protection

Considering how often this page is vandalized (most changes to it are vandalism-related), wouldn't it be better to semi-protect it, limiting editing to registered users? urashimataro (talk) 00:51, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Clearly a bad article

Shinto is one of the world's oldest religions, unfortunately this article does not support the depth and breadth of Shinto in Japan or its history. As such and being a Shinto lay historian I am going to endeavour to get this page on track. I am going to do a complete rewrite of this entry to see if wiki can present a good article about this topic. Unfortunately this current page has been taken directly from only about 2-3 texts and they are clearly a Christian interpretation of the 'pagan' religion. I will start this over and restructure it first and then flesh it out. Patience and I welcome all discussion and input to make this better than it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Takashi Ueki (talk • contribs) 21:26, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Please see my "Downgraded to C" section below. I agree with you wholeheartedly: Shinto should be described for what it is, not how it relates to Christian concepts of religion. Specifically, the "theology" of Shinto should be mostly removed because the Kojiki is not a theological text and did not lay out the rules for preexisting institutions. Sections I would want to see, if you don't mind the suggestions, are pre-Buddhist religious practices, the period of Japanese-Buddhist syncretism (e.g. shugendo being a practice based on Japanese beliefs but justified by Shingon theology), and a description of State Shinto and the drastically changed function of ethnic religion after WW2. I think that would give a very enlightening summary of Shinto, although I am not Japanese myself. Just be sure to cite everything! Shii (tock) 18:59, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

By all means I will cite, I am working on a complete work now. If you would like to see one of my edits, see Yasukuni Shrine, one that was clearly biased and problematic. I have sections on history, important persons, religious practices, important holidays, and traditions. We will see how it goes from there. What do you all think about a section on gods in relation to regionalism? Takashi Ueki 1:55pm May 16th —Preceding undated comment added 20:56, 16 May 2009 (UTC).

That sounds like a good idea. Other articles on ethnic religions don't seem to summarize these local cults, but I think talking about the importance of locality and place would be an improvement over the strict Amaterasu->Izanami+Izanagi->others hierarchy. Shii (tock) 07:15, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Rewriting of this page

I have begun the sectional rewriting, and am attempting to add citations as possible, please give me some patience and I will be happy to take critical review as the work progresses. The article was laughable initially, but I am going to make a run at a complete overhaul. I will add a history section, with a timeline, religious developments, and important people given the time. I will also change some photos to the more relevant shrines and images, and not the travel guide pictures that are currently displayed. I will use my own photos as I have a very large collection from many shrines in Japan. Takashi Ueki (talk) 21:53, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Bad formatting of "Practices" section

I tried to correct some misspellings in the "Practices" section, but found that the "edit" links did not relate to the content. Something is seriously screwed up in the HTML. Can anyone put this right? Thanks. Bricology (talk) 23:41, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism

There is regular vandalism to this page, it is very conerning as this must be considered "hate" related vandalism. My wish is that this page can be somewhat locked to prevent consistent vandalism by unregistered users and those wishing to damage the truth. If this can be done, please do it. Takashi Ueki (talk) 15:45, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Is this verifiable?

Quote: "It is generally accepted that the vast majority of Japanese people are Shinto. This same number may also be considered Buddhist and neither faith has exclusivity within its dogma. Most people in Japan are both by practice."

Is "generally accepted" correctly applied here? 96.255.106.92 (talk) 00:49, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Expansion

I am continuing to expand this article to its full culmination of history, and relevance. However the section on impurity, purification, and some other article matter is very thin. There needs to be a full discussion of the relevance of impurity and purification as an in depth part of this very rich and deep religion. They make it sound as though these are like washing your hands. Although the blessing of Apollo 11 and other events may be interesting facts they are not relevant to Shinto as a major religion and should be a footnote not a core article discussion. I will re-edit these sections after the history section is complete.

Pardon my lack of citations, my citation document has been lost and I will have to recreate it. Give me some time. Takashi Ueki (talk) 14:58, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Taoism vs Daoism

This is not the place for discussion of esoteric arguments of spelling. I have chosen to address this by adding alternate spellings so that there is no argument here. I care very little for this argument, and if you want to discuss this topic or add relevant content, feel free, however if you are simply going to change the spelling of a contested word, please go elsewhere. Both are acceptable based on many sources, but I will add both for the benefit of all. Reference the section on Daoism/Taoism here in Wikipedia and you will see. Takashi Ueki (talk) 02:33, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Criticism of Shinto

There should maybe be an article on criticism of Shinto, since there are already entries on criticism of Buddhism, criticism of Hinduism, criticism of Judaism, criticism of Christianity, etc. ADM (talk) 05:20, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

This would be a very boring page. It would say that Shinto supported nationalism and the response would be that this is either untrue to Shinto theology or government masquerading as Shinto. I think the critics and apologists would be arguing at cross purposes. Shii (tock) 17:17, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Agreed Shinto is not a national institution now, and criticizm pages usually are simply points for argument starters. Also the criticism frequently is based on one sect or another but applied to the religion as a whole, making the arguments spurious at best, lies at worst. Takashi Ueki (talk) 17:32, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

On the other hand, the same is true of arguments against most belief systems - Christianity is often identified by the beliefs of extreme fundamentalists rather than moderates, Islam is often overshadowed by the publicity terrorists get, Communism is for many associated with Stalin's purges, and so forth. -moritheil^Talk 10:37, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Shinto and shoes

The article says that in Japan, removing one's shoes is an influence from Shinto. Any source on this? I know that other Asians, such as the Chinese, also tend to remove shoes in the home, whereas Shinto is a Japanese religion. This would seem to contradict that Shinto is the main motivating factor for shoe removal. -moritheil^Talk 10:34, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Removed as spurious Shii (tock) 17:11, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Shoes and Shrines

In what shrines are you supposed to remove your shoes, in the five that I visited in tokyo, none had any signs or people crying at us and pointing at our feet. I understand that Tokyo receives heavy tourism and even more foot traffic around anything that glints in the sun; like the Meiji shrine, which has floors made of granite or slate, made to tolerate millions of people. Unless they counted the Jika-Tabi (note: I was not wearing Jika-Tabi just because I was going to Japan, they happened to be my only comfortable footwear) I was wearing as not shoes or it only applies to indoor carpeted shrines, this leaves me in a rather confused state. The only time that anyone ever fussed at me was when I sat on the steps at the foot of the Meiji shrine.

User:Aryeonos 71.94.63.105 (talk) 18:22, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Edit request

New Section to go after 'Shinto and Buddhism', quote referenced with permission from the ARC:

{{editsemiprotected}} ===Shinto and Ecology===
It is the forests, and not the buildings, that mark the true shrines of Shintoism. The deities are invited to these forests, where they and their environment are protected by the local community, which in turn is protected by the deities.

So although the 'chinju no mori' or sacred groves around Shinto shrines are revered as the dwelling place of the kami spirits, it is the kami which are worshipped, not the trees.

Most of Japan’s largest and oldest trees (some dating back several thousand years) lie within chinju no mori, protected because of their sanctity. The following was extracted from a paper given by Reverend Kuniaki Kuni, Chairman of the Association of Shinto Shrines, at Visby’s Faith and Forestry Gathering:

For the Shinto, purity and righteousness are important factors—preserving the beauty of nature and the purity of heart. However, the decline in religiousness in Japan has led to increased littering in public places. Rubbish can be found on the mountain trail of Mt. Fuji which has become a public issue. I am increasingly realizing the role the Shinto can play to help tackle these issues. It is important to remember how our ancestors appreciated and recognized nature’s blessings. We must reflect on our sense of values since often we place too much emphasis on materialism. To realize the reduction of CO2 emission prescribed in Kyoto Protocol, and to improve and resolve the world’s environmental problems, we must recognize that each individual plays an essential role. Also, together with governments and leaders of various fields from around the world, we, religious people, must persevere in our efforts.

As part of their environmental ethos, then, members of the Shinto faith have devised a “long-term commitment” to protecting the environment in cooperation with The Alliance of Religions and Conservation. With support from the U.N. they will be attending the Windsor Conference in November 2009 to present their plan for Sustainable Management of Sacred Forests, which will include management all of their sacred forests in sustainable ways, and the purchasing of timber solely from sustainably managed forests on behalf of their 80,000 or more shrines. Laurajanejackson1984 (talk) 13:37, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

 Not done: Sorry, but the entire section is an almost word for word copy of the source. Celestra (talk) 14:57, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Neutrality

The very first sentence, "Shinto (神道, Shintō?) or kami-no-michi is the natural spirituality of Japan and the Japanese people," absolutely reeks of a lack of neutrality. How exactly can a country, or any other entity, have a "natural spirituality." Kronos o (talk) 13:48, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I think "natural" might mean "nature-based". Shii (tock) 03:49, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

"Yamatokotoba" and "kami no michi"

The article states the opposite, however; these two terms are of different meaning! "Yamatokotoba" refers to words native to Japan (as opposed to words derived from China etc.). "Kami no michi", 神の道, is equal to the term Shintou, 神道, in meaning (the way of the gods), but different in that it is the native Japanese reading, in other words the "yamatokotoba version" of the term. "Shintou" is the adapted Chinese-like reading of the two Chinese characters meaning "god" and "way" (both abstract and actual ones).