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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Achromatic (talk | contribs) at 05:56, 20 October 2009 (→‎David Shankbone: millions of people?). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

David Shankbone

David Shankbone (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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This article uses spurious sourcing (namely the subject's blog, various other blogs, and Wikinews) to create a piece that appears to be a valid article, yet really isn't. It should be noted that the subject of the article has an account on Wikipedia (User:David Shankbone). While there are news references to the subject, there isn't sufficient coverage to merit inclusion. --MZMcBride (talk) 22:39, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete. Pure navel gazing; we're not David's personal PR operation, and if he were writing for any site other than Wikipedia this would have been A7'd. (For some perspective, that "major interview" averages 11 views a day.) We already went through this with David Gerard, who with all due respect is considerably more notable than his namesake Shankbone. – iridescent 22:42, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I find the claim that "he became the first citizen journalist to interview a sitting head of state" to be enough to meet WP:BIO. ("The person has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field"). Additionally, the Columbia Journalism Review piece indicates there is verifiability. Prodego talk 22:43, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Before we go keeping this article over that pretty substantial claim, considering it is the basis of the notability argument, could you actually find a source for it? It sounds plausible but unlikely to me without a reference, and might just be a misunderstanding of the line "its reporter was the first Wikinews staffer to interview a head of state" from the InformationWeek article. (That would be a considerably weaker claim.) Dominic·t 23:27, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • If that claim is not true, then that drastically changes the notability of Shankbone. I would say that my 'keep' is dependent on that claim in fact. Prodego talk 23:51, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • What exactly is a "citizen journalist" and how is it defined in any regard different than a standard journalist? (this would require a citation actually using the term and in a manner that is applicable for him being the "first", plus a citation verifying it, each independent sources that are reliable. Then you would need to prove that citizen journalist is a real term, as the page seems to suffer from WP:NEO and is promoting something as opposed to being encyclopedic) And, regardless, why would it matter? Furthermore, who would even define it, especially since he is an amateur journalist or a professional journalist (its an either or), and both have interviewed heads of states, so, I don't see the assertion really standing. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:49, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm not convinced on this - I would want to see appropriate verifiability. In Australia, I remember school children interviewing the Prime Minister of the day following journalism competitions. While some might claim that's not journalism per se, it's no more or less "journalistic" than anything else. Achromatic (talk) 01:56, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've left a note on the author of the article's talk page regarding that statement - hopefully he will promptly respond and clarify the strength of that statement. Prodego talk 02:55, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • This has now been changed, per discussion on the talk page. He was the first WikiNews citizen journalist to have interviewed a sitting head of state, and this is what InformationWeek actually stated in their sub-title and lede section - Alison ❤ 08:07, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per me. Prodego talk 17:06, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The CJR piece, interview in the Brooklyn Rail, and the article in Jewish Week support notability, and the Information Week article says that Israeli newspaper El Haaretz covered Shankbone's visit and Wikinews' coverage stemming from the visit. I've no interest in promotional articles, but minus the puffery I think there's enough here to satisfy WP:BIO. JNW (talk) 22:55, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Prodego, pending confirmation of basis. While I realize we should guard against navel gazing, if one of our own becomes notable, we should not flinch from a biography on that individual. KillerChihuahua?!?Advice 00:35, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - reads like a puff piece. If this is kept it needs some rebalancing I think. Not yet decided about whether he's notable enough, like Prodego I'd like that source verified. ++Lar: t/c 00:45, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - all sources are minimal at best and fails the threshold for "significant coverage". Clearly non-notable individual. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:52, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Ottava Rima; if the claim Prodego emphasized is proven to be true, this may require revisiting. Until then, this individual is not sufficiently noteworthy. –Juliancolton | Talk 00:54, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Without discovering the details, I have learned that the subject is controversial here, and I acknowledge the danger of encouraging articles about figures "notable" for Wikipedian reasons. However, I agree with Prodego re the citizen journalist, and even if all the Wikipedia-related material were removed from the article (I don't think it should be) the subject would still be marginally notable. Johnuniq (talk) 00:55, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Navel-gazing, dubious notability. Achromatic (talk) 01:56, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Until flagged revisions are implemented on BLPs on marginally notable subjects they should be deleted. Cla68 (talk) 02:10, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. The Columbia Journalism Review and InformationWeek coverage would seem to indicate to me that verifiability has been satisfied. I'm not convinced he's (yet) the Barbara Walters of citizen journalism, but, nevertheless, I think the pieces illustrate that our requirements for notability have been met. user:J aka justen (talk) 02:17, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - I'm not convinced about the references and, per Prodego, would like to see that reference. We've had quite a few notable editors here in the past - many who have their own articles (User:Jokestress comes to mind) - but notability via Wikipedia leaves me twitchy indeed. Outside WP, David, who's an excellent yet amateur photographer, doesn't seem to have established the required notability. Also, the article needs serious editing for balance and neutrality. Further-urthermore, it'll also serve as the perfect focus for BLP-related attacks from David's enemies, of which he seems to have a few. I've already move-protected it as I await the inevitable. In short, NN, somewhat dubiously-referenced, currently reads as a puff-piece and is a BLP disaster waiting to happen. I'm no particular fan of David Shankbone (David Miller seems much nicer. Seriously), but I don't want to see him suffering the kind of BLP-related attacks that others have had to deal with here - Alison ❤ 02:39, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The ample reliable and verifiable sources are far from "spurious" and included the in-depth coverage that satisfies the Wikipedia notability standard. Alansohn (talk) 03:40, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • KeepDelete The sources don't address the subject in substantial detail, so this doesn't meet WP:N. All we have is a pile of trivia. He acts like a journalist and gets a lot of interviews -- so do thousands of other people who get published. Same goes for photographs. Even the Columbia Journalism Review article, which might have substantial coverage of him, is used for trivia. There doesn't seem to be any source out there that gives us the depth of coverage needed for an article. JohnWBarber (talk) 04:18, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • You're absolutely right, it is detailed, and I have to change my vote. I still don't think this will be good for the subject, but I think this is marginal enough that he can get it deleted if he finds it a burden. JohnWBarber (talk) 18:48, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete at this time further comment now added below per Prodego - yes that's right per Prodego; and certainly if we can't get solid reliable sources that prove for example that David is the first citizen journalist to interview a sitting head of state. Indeed this addition sums up the general puffery of the piece insofar that it claims something that is probably impossible to verify - after all citizen journalists (defined in the article as members of the public "playing an active role in the process of collecting, reporting, analyzing and disseminating news and information) have been around for decades and longer. Is David the first to have interviewed a head of state? If yes well call me back here but until then this article should be deleted.--VirtualSteve need admin support? 05:16, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Alison's notification of a change to the "first citizen journalist" is noted and I am left still with the feeling that delete is the appropriate response here - else it appears wikipedia becomes its own reference. Thanks.--VirtualSteve need admin support? 09:48, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Sources aren't sufficient to meet WP:BIO Nick-D (talk) 07:29, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. I was waiting for the news on the "first citizen journalist" bit, now that that has been resolved it does not show sufficient notability to balance out the risk Alison discusses above. The Columbia Journalism Review articles states "though Miller has managed interviews with a few high -profile subjects like Peres, he's relatively unknown outside the Wiki community", so even they don't feel he is particularly notable. Kevin (talk) 09:44, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • That last statement isn't thattrue. It was an error the reporter blogged about and corrected. He wrote that he used a bad tool. About that first citizen journalist to interview a head of state I wrote: of course I don't mean school kids doing things for their high school paper, which makes a good photo op for a politician. What I meant was here was a guy who works as a paralegal, yet does all this stuff for free on this site in his spare time. He goes to Israel with Businesweek, Salon, and other big media sites - who scores the huge interview? The citizen journalist from Wikinews. I thought the InformationWeek and CJR articles made that clear, but I guess it's kind of SYN. He's the first citizen journalist to interview a head of state, and you won't find anyone else that fits that bill. He took vacation time from his job. So perhaps a citation doesn't exist, but neither does another example of anything like that. It was all volunteer, and it was a scoop for Wikinews, where he's accredited. --Huckandraz (talk) 02:22, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The blog you linked seems to correct something other than the part I quoted, and he didn't retract the part about Shankbone being "relatively unknown". Kevin (talk) 02:38, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The reporter offered an opinion, and then gave his evidence. The full quote is "Although Miller has managed interviews with a few high-profile subjects like Peres, he's relatively unknown outside the Wiki community. Some of his pieces have page views in the single digits." What the correction addressed was that the hypothesis, "He's unknown" is because "his articles have single digits". Obviously, if nobody read them, nobody knows him. The reporter corrected that the evidence to support that statement was wrong, and therefore so was the theory it was used to support. It's the only evidence he gives. Otherwise, you have all three major dailies in Israel, Jewish Week, InformationWeek and the CJR doing an in depth profile about somebody that nobody in journalism has ever heard of? The reporter and subject went out of the way to correct the record. --Huckandraz (talk) 03:03, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Although my duck test sniffer tells me this was created as a way to harass him there does seem to be plenty here to weave together a good article despite what seems contrary motivations. That his work is acknowledged as a Wikipedian is documented independent of us so would seem to pass that bar as well. At worst this, very new, article needs rigorous clean-up to ensure accuracy and that is already happening. Whatever the motivations the article is here now and should be given a chance to develop. They happened to do this work here but it is written about elsewhere. -- Banjeboi 10:17, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, obviously. Puff piece probably created by subject or an associate.67.160.100.233 (talk) 11:32, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • This template must be substituted. 11:59, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep. To have a profile in the Columbia Journalism Review seems to establish notability in and of itself, because it's significant coverage in a reliable source, which is what Wikipedia:Notability requires. In addition, there are the Haaretz and Information Week articles that are actually about him, not just containing passing reference to him; his work being used by The New York Times and Encylopaedia Britannica; and the comic strip based on his work in Time Out. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 13:11, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Whoa, Slim, I'm going to stop you right there. His work is "used by the Encylopaedia Britannica" in the sense that my work is "used by Wikipedia"; he happens to have uploaded some photos to the user-editable section of the E.B., and anyone else could do the same. If "used by the Encylopaedia Britannica" in this context is grounds for an article, then I'll get writing on LaraLove and Realist2 on the basis of their Maynard James Keenan and Michael Jackson Wikipedia articles being ripped off borrowed by the BBC. – iridescent 13:23, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Actually the article is wonkily constructed a bit - he did an art project of 4000+ images and freely licensed them. Those were in turn used in many places including Wikipedia articles, books, etc etc. Those are attributed images which would not seem to be directly comparable to group efforted text, which we have no expectation of attribution, which is then "borrowed". -- Banjeboi 13:29, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's incorrect to say the Haaretz and Information Week articles are about him. They barely tell us anything at all about him. Haaretz quotes his opinions and gives us a fact or two about him. Information Week has nothing to say about him other than that he got the interview with Perez. I can't read the Columbia Journalism Review article, but the article doesn't use it for more than a bit of trivial information, so I doubt there's any more to it than the others. This is a collection of trivial coverage from sources, each of which provide a teensy bit of information. If they all added up to a rounded picture of him, then fine, we could consider him "notable". But even with all those sources cited, the article gets us nowhere near giving us the coverage we'd want in a Wikipedia article, and it's not as if we can assume there's more out there somewhere. We have AfDs so that we don't have junky articles in the encyclopedia. If he is notable, he's only marginally notable, but he's more than just marginally controversial on Wikipedia, so for this marginally "notable" person we'd have editors and administrators wasting time patrolling the article, reverting vandals, arguing with his enemies. It isn't good for David Miller, or for administrators and editors here, and it isn't good for readers to get such a poor article that has little prospect of ever getting better. It's bad all around. JohnWBarber (talk) 13:44, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • I had to change my mind. The Columbia Journalism Review article is substantial coverage. JohnWBarber (talk) 18:48, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete fails WP:BIO, full of puff. --Cameron Scott (talk) 13:16, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Almost every journalist to ever interview a head of state has been a "citizen journalist" (and maybe all of them -- though a stateless hack or two is possible). As for "amateur journalists" interviewing heads of state -- that has been happening for at least 100 years. Whoever the first amatuer (both as in "unpaid" and as in "withough schooling or expertise in the field") hack to interview a leader was, I guess receives a trivia footnote, but probably isn't notable either. `Now, some interviews are notable in and of themselves and might reflect upon the notability of the interviewer (Frost-Nixon). But I see no evidence of this fellow ever breaking a major story or otherwise having done something journalistically that might have generated notability (and there are no reliable sources on this, likewise). Nothing of interest in the Peres interview, surely. Accepting a paid junket from the Israeli (or any other) government is a firing offense at old media (and if it's true that salon tolerates that bullshit, i'm embarressed for them) and if you interview the Prime Minister while on the government payroll that isn't considered journalism, it's considered PR. To wrap up: No reliable sources estabslish notability for this living person or cover him in sufficient depth to allow for independent verification of this articles claims.Bali ultimate (talk) 13:50, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Iridescent, Alison, and others. Marginally notable BLP. GlassCobra 14:17, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - I don't know, there seems to be enough reilable sources to piece together a good article out of this one. Good one for the Rescue Squad...--Unionhawk Talk E-mail Review 14:19, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, the sources don't establish notability. Everyking (talk) 14:41, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - The CJR piece is 1843 words long and the entire article covers Shankbone in depth on his photography and interviews, which I believe refutes the trivial claim, since it is clearly more than "significant coverage", per the WP:NOTABILITY guideline. Columbia Journalism Review—the prestigious, influential, and prominent professional journalism review from Columbia University's J-School—is clearly a reliable source. The article is behind a paywall at CJR, but can be read in full here. — Becksguy (talk) 15:10, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for finding that and posting the link. You changed my vote to Keep. JohnWBarber (talk) 18:48, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. The Brooklyn Rail article or the Columbia Journalism Review article alone, along with some supporting sources, are enough to establish notability. There's not much point in debating what the specific claims to notability are; the important thing is that he was regarded by multiple independent secondary sources as being worthy of an in-depth profile. We shouldn't apply different standards to Wikipedians than to non-Wikipedians. For a more detailed discussion on my views on the topic, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alex Nimo (2nd nomination). (For whatever it's worth, David is a former client and a close friend of mine, but my opinions are entirely my own.) -Pete (talk) 15:14, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Notablity requires more than cursory mentions, which the sources you list only provide such. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:52, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per John Barber above, at least one of the mentions appears to be anything but cursory. user:J aka justen (talk) 22:39, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Notability not established. David may be a decent enough hobby journalist and photographer, but that's all he is GTD 15:36, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep He was featured in Wikinews [2], there a picture of him shaking hands with the president of Israel. There are plenty of mentions of him in the news, references to reliable sources already in the article. Dream Focus 17:17, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Um, being mentioned in another Wikimedia project does not in any way convey notability. –Juliancolton | Talk 17:34, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unless that mention shows you shaking hands with the president of another country, you a notable enough reporter to fly over there and meet with the guy. And as I said, he was mentioned in other news sources. Dream Focus 22:30, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you interviewed him and millions of people read about it, then yes, that would make you notable. Dream Focus 23:08, 19 October 2009 (UTC) [reply]
  • Millions of people read about it? To quote a phrase popular here - "citation needed". Achromatic (talk) 05:56, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you were invited by another country to be a citizen journalist it sure would seem exceptional, and then add interviewing (not seeing) the president by granted interview which itself was reported on by independent media. Yea, it might, or at least suggest this is an exceptional situation. -- Banjeboi 00:11, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Being mentioned in a few news articles isn't the same as those articles being entirely about you. And even the ones that are more substantial, like CJR, appear to be more about the phenomena of citizen journalism and how Shankbone is an example of it, than about him himself. The rest of the blog and wikinews sources are not an indication of notability. rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 17:33, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Per sufficient references. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 18:27, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - he is the subject of multiple articles in Columbia Journalism Review and other reliable media; notable (if amateur) journalist. Disclosure: I read some of these articles on my own. Bearian (talk) 21:52, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as lacking substantial coverage, a marginal BLP. Grsz11 22:16, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep on the basis of the CJR article, a feature primarily about him. If he were not a Wikipedian, that source for notability would have been sufficient & this article would probably never have been questioned. The article needs some editing, but that's another matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DGG (talk • contribs)
  • Keep per justen, JNW, and the guy right above me who doesn't have a name attached to his comment. There seems to be some interesting bits in the article that we are being let know of. Can someone point me to the policy that this article is coming up against? Varks Spira (talk) 01:15, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The Columbia Journalism Review defines him as being below non-notable in his field: "Although Miller has managed interviews with a few high-profile subjects like Peres, he's relatively unknown outside the Wiki community. Some of his pieces have page views in the single digits." Warrah (talk) 02:33, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • weak keep A lot of the arguments being used here for deletion are questionable. For example the claim that because his notability extends from Wikipedia we should have a higher bar and not have "navel-gazing" isn't valid. Although we need to be especially careful for matters that related to Wikpedia, the bar for Wikipedia related material should be identical. Also, the claim that being described as "relatively unknown" in a major reliable source that discusses you in detail makes you not-notable misses the entire notion of what WP:N relies on, coverage. If (hypothetically) soemthing was covered extensively as the least known example of an X, it would make it a notable X. These weak arguments need to be disregarded. That said, my keep is only weak because while I think he meets the notability criteria, I'm not completely convinced of that. JoshuaZ (talk) 03:57, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep While I would certainly not trust Wikinews as any sort of reliable source, the individual has received coverage in numerous reliable sources outside the Wikirealm for his work as a journalist, thus meeting the criteria set by WP:GNG. And as interesting as it might be that one reliable source might define him as non-notable in his field, Wikipedia does not use their standards. We use our own... and it is the extensive coverage of him (despite their definition) that specifically makes him notable per Wikipedia's guidelines. MichaelQSchmidt (talk) 04:05, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • With all due respect, Wikinews has extensive reviewing and articles once completed and extensively reviewed are permanently protected. Wikinews is indeed cited on a variety of Wikipedia pages. (COI disclaimer, I'm a Wikinews admin) JoshuaZ (talk) 04:10, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Aplogies JoshuaZ, as no disrespect was intended. My first sentence was meant to be read with irony. As even the nominator discredits the article because of its use of Wikinews, I wished to underscore that the man's notability can be found through his coverage in numerous sources outside of the Foundation's children. MichaelQSchmidt (talk) 04:56, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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