Talk:Dragon

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• Talk:Dragon/Archive 1 - Archive of talk from creation - end of 2006.
• Talk:Dragon/Archive 2 - Archive from end of 2006 - mid 2007

Merging this article with European dragon

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

What do you think about merging this article? I myself think that both refer to Dragons; just different types of folklore, so it would be easier to find out about both if they were just in one article. Danny Sepley 20:52, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

• I agree in 100% --200.126.153.25 18:14, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
• STRONGLY disagree: European and East-Asian dragons are different enough to deserve their own articles, and a page concerning dragons as a whole (rather than a disambiguation page) is necessary due to commonalities and the fact that Europe and East-Asia are not the only areas with dragons in their mythology. Dragons are so enormous, diverse, and ubiquitous a part of mythology that merging can only result in (1) a page so generalized in its information as to be completely useless, (2) a page that would take a prohibitively long time to read in order to give any usefully detailed information, or (3) a list. This is a bad, bad, bad idea. --Þorstejnn 13:56, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
• As the person who added the tag, a merge is definitely in order. The #1 meaning of dragons is what is currently showing at European dragons, and there's a lot of wasted overlap between the two articles. It's arguable if the other dragons ever ARE dragons, as they are largely unrelated beasts given the dragon name by westerners, but even if they should be considered dragons they are by far the lesser topic and should be handled in more depth on their own article, as they already have. 16:05, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
• Merge - but disagree strongly with the injudicious phrase "they are by far the lesser topic"; dragons have a very major role in a lot of world cultures and are by no means a lesser topic. --Orange Mike 16:14, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
• Do Not Merge — Agree with Þorstejnn above: if there's too much overlap between the pages, move the European-specific content to that page. —Ryan McDaniel (talk) 03:22, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

• I think the dragon title should be used to represent all types of dragons, not just the Chinese dragons, but all. There should be different articles with different titles to tell about the other types of dragons, for example, a page called something like Chinese Dragons. However, I just checked that title, and found it existed, a whole article about Chinese dragons when there was already another one. I think one of them has to go, and I would choose the Dragon page, or I would change it to something that discusses all types of dragons as there are more stuff to that topic other than Chinese dragons. So I say merge. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slayerteez (talk • contribs) 23:56, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
• i agree 100% that european dragons should be merged to the chinese dragon page because i often refer to both types and find that it would be much easier to find the information on both types. so i say merge!!

Reasons NOT to merge Above, Danny Sepley writes, "I myself think that both refer to Dragons; just different types of folklore, so it would be easier to find out about both if they were just in one article."

This is not good enough a reason to merge. It's like saying that both the mythology page and Greek mythology page refer to mythology, just different types, so it would be easier to find out about both if they were just in one article, or that both the page on cuisine and Italian cuisine refer to food, just different types, so it would be easier to find out about both if they were just in one article. That's assinine. Is the argument here that we don't need a page on European dragons because they are indistinct from other dragons? Clearly, European dragons are just as distinguished as their own cultural variety as Eastern dragons are. Is it that the generalized dragon article covers mainly European dragons? If that's the case, then much of the information here should be moved to the European dragon page; the need for a page about dragons in general should be obvious (just as is the need for a page about mythology in general, or cuisine in general). If this page over-emphasizes European dragons and both this page and the European dragon page contain much of the same information and frequently overlap, the situation need be fixed the same way we would go about fixing a page about mythology that over-emphasizes, say, Norse mythology, or a situation in which both the mythology page and the Norse mythology page were to contain frequently overlapping material, or the manner in which we'd go about fixing a page about cuisine that over-emphasizes American cuisine or a situation in which both the article on cuisine and the article on American cuisine were to contain frequently overlapping material. Both European and Eastern dragons are distinct; they both deserve their own articles apart from the general article.

A merging is NOT the answer, but a restructuring is definitely in order. The general rule here on Wikipedia is "improve, don't delete" whenever possible. I doubt anyone would seriously contest the position that the need for a separate page on European dragons is obvious, just as is the need for a page dealing with dragons in general. The problem seems to be content. Either this page is too Euro-centric, or the European dragon page is too general. These are content problems which can, and as apparently is necessary, need be fixed. But deleting one page or the other would imply that there is no need for a page dealing with that page's subject matter; either that there is no need to address the subject of European dragons in its own article, or no need to address the subject of dragons in general in its own article, and that simply can't be justified.

This is how the page on Lovecraftianism got deleted: someone filled the page with information on Lovecraftian horror, so much so that it became the main focus of the page, and the Lovecraftianism page got merged into the Lovecraftian horror page, even though Lovecraftianism and Lovecraftian horror are two completely different subjects. Now Wikipedia lacks a page dealing with Lovecraftianism (the subculture and spiritualism), and it would be a damned shame to see that happen again, here.

Additionally, many pages here on Wikipedia cover similar subjects and overlap to an even greater degree than dragons and European dragons. Consider Norse mythology and Germanic mythology, for example, or American English and British English. The need to contrast European dragons with Oriental dragons is just as great, leaving only the option to delete the page on dragons in general by merging it into the European dragon page. But that would be like getting rid of the page on mythology, or the page on English, to extend the comparison.

I say again: These are subjects that deserve individual treatment. Dragons as a whole is one subject, and European dragons is another, more specific subject. If the content of the two pages is so similar that a merge has been proposed, then answer is to rewrite the articles so that this is no longer the case. In other words, "improve, don't delete"! --Þórrstejn [ˡθoɝ.staɪʲn]: Hammer of Thor ^talk 19:44, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

(P.S. Sorry for the extensive redundancies, but given the reasons I'm seeing for the merge and the fact that it was even suggested to begin with, as well as the apparent education and comprehension level of some of the contributors I see posting on the talk page, I felt the need to explain this using as many different wordings as possible.)

• Merge - The problem with leaving the page as it is (other than it being a huge mess of OR garble) is that East Asian "dragons" aren't really dragons, but lóng. They're generally referred to as "dragons" due to both creatures being large, fantastic serpents, but otherwise, aside from some latter-day psychological theorizing, their mythologies are completely unrelated. It's like having one page for "Unicorns" and another for "Western Unicorns", with the first discussing unicorns, qilin, and any other unrelated magical horned, ungulate-like beasts that have at one time or another had the "unicorn" label stuck on them. At the very least this article should become a disambiguation page with a short explanation of how the overgrown reptile motif is found in a variety of cultures, and links to all the various legendary snake or lizard creatures that have been called "dragons" at some point or another, and whatever article discusses generalized "dragons" in modern fantasy fiction. Kotengu 小天狗 06:15, 13 August 2007 (UTC) (--ANOMALY-117 (talk) 03:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC)i agree but chinese/japenese dragons are more or less serpents that are reltives to th dragon if any thing the word dragon should be hyperlinked to the europen dragon if not merged because when the word dragon what pops into your head does a little dragon/serpent thing pop up? or a huge euro dragon like Merlin's dragon Drake? Europe dragon should be the main species and all other dragon things should be sub-species.--ANOMALY-117 (talk) 03:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC))but they should at least be merged and cleand up so only what you can call a dragonshould remain

I'd mostly agree, except that this is the English language version of Wikipedia, and in the English language, the term "dragon" refers not just to Drakes (the stereotypical four-legged, two-winged fire-belchers), but to other western creatures like the Wyvern
yea example of sub-species --ANOMALY-117 (talk) 03:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
and the Tarasque, as well as to lóng
--ANOMALY-117 (talk) 03:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC)see above sentencr by me for my thought--ANOMALY-117 (talk) 03:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
and many other supernatural reptilian creatures all over the globe. We could choose to disregard this fact and decide that this usage isn't respectful enough to the post-millennial multicultural mindset, but that would be pushing a flavor-of-the-month POV -- a particularly nasty form of POV-pushing that rages almost completely unchecked here on Wikipedia (people have a tendency not to want to admit that a flavor-of-the-month POV is even a POV at all, because it is, after all, the flavor of the month). We can't just redefine the English language to suite our sensibilities. --Þórrstejn [ˡθoɝ.staɪʲn]: Hammer of Thor ^talk 13:21, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

• Merge - Partially for the reasons stated by Kotengu but also just for simple neatness. Where I differ is that I think it is the Dragon article, not the European Dragon article, that could be merged. Given the weight of dragons and dragon-like creatures in mythologies, I think Dragon itself could be a disambiguation page leading to more in-depth articles about the specific varieties. Onikage725 13:37, 14 August 2007 (UTC) (--ANOMALY-117 (talk) 03:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC)he has a point it sure aint neat--ANOMALY-117 (talk) 03:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC))

• Disagree. Individual dragon types are pretty distinct, it only serves to reason that we would have subarticles on 'european dragon', american 'feathered serpent' or 'asian dragon'.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  03:20, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

--ANOMALY-117 (talk) 03:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC) that is good idea but the article should start with a common trait between all dragons then have chapters on different species and their sybolism.--ANOMALY-117 (talk) 03:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• Keep and improve. Strongly agree with Thorstejnn. The debate on whether the Chinese long and other dragon-like creatures should be technically considered dragon isn't meaningful. The fact is that they are refered to as dragon, even if not completely appropriately. In this sense, dragon is really a broad category akin to, using Thorstejnn's examples, "cuisine" or "mythology". As such, it should have more emphasis on an overview and cut down on the details of the culture-specific stuff, but the separate articles should definitely be kept. o 23:25, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose merge just because there is plenty of room to expand both this article and European dragon that they are better off being two articles. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 20:59, 17 September 2007 (UTC) (two articles make it harder to find because not every kid knows evry type of dragon.--ANOMALY-117 (talk) 03:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC))

Dragons are some of the most talked about mythical creatures and there are a lot to talk about them. I think both articles should be separated (or, if you're merging European Dragon with this article, you should merge Eastern Dragon too).--Midasminus 16:28, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that there should at least be something about the european dragon on this page even if you don't merge the two pages. After all, dragons have appeared in almost every culture around the world so there must be some kind of connection between all of them. As for merging the pages, I vote yes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drizzt3737 (talk • contribs) 14:04, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

• Speedy merge All a euro is is another species of dragon. This entire discussion is stupid. Euros should have been in here in the first place.--Gp75motorsports 17:37, 6 November 2007 (UTC) (right on motor--ANOMALY-117 (talk) 03:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose merge European dragons are distinct enough to justify their existence generally from dragons. The person who suggested this ignorantly assumes that the word dragon in english generally refers to european dragons. While that may be true, scholars have noted the difference generally between eastern in western dragons. In the east, dragons can often be considered gods, wheras in western mythology they are monsters of some sort. (not all dragons are evil. but it needs to merge evil or not--ANOMALY-117 (talk) 03:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC)) I think it is a terrible academic travesty to merge these articles —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.197.252.213 (talk) 23:55, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

• Do not merge

There are clear differences between western and eastern cultural perceptions of dragons. While they are both called dragon, the European view of them is one of evil, fearful creatures with far different appearances than that of the Asian perception. Asian dragons are symbolically lucky, beneficial creatures by nature. To merge the two would be akin to merging Anchor and Anchor (climbing). The two are homonyms, and not one and the same. Danakin (talk) 03:55, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose merge: There's enough info here that it would be detrimental to the main dragon article (by cluttering it) or you'd have to remove and compress a lot of the info contained in this article. Keep them separate. --BHC (talk) 10:39, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

• Keep as is and Oppose merge: As per BHC may I remind you that wikipedia is not paper and there is enough topical information in this article to keep it as a separate entity. Is it that hard to just provide well placed links to this article? Even the Chinese, Korean and Japanese dragons have their own page. It would be both inconsistent and counterproductive to do otherwise. --Stux (talk) 15:36, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• Do not merge*: as per Danakin, and ANOMALY-117. All those types are differing enough to diserve their own article. However, there should be a couple of lines in this article explaining them, and then they can link to the Euro Dragon or Chinese Dragon or whatever. Exec. Tassadar (comments, contribs) 13:29, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• • • DO NOT MERGE***

Both articles are completely different and people should post only things about european dragons on the european dragon sight.

I do however think that the article "Chinese Dragons" should be changed to Asian dragons to dscuss that area as a whole.

Connor —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.209.131.176 (talk) 00:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Since their are many types of dragons, couldn't you make one article about dragons in general, with links to the other more specific pages, for people who lack knowledge of what type of dragon they are looking for? -Knowledgeabletome —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.57.125.252 (talk) 03:26, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Another Page for chinese lóng?

If we maintain one page for western dragons in order not to clutter the main Dragon page with all the Western Dragon info, then perhaps we should make another page for Chinese lóng. Since these are very different from not only, say Welsh dragons, but most dragons from Poland to Thailand, it is the lóng which probably needs a page of its own at least as much. The arguments on both sides here are reasonable and deserve a good think, so please keep ones tone apt, not smart-ass.

IceDragon64 13:16, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Note: Chinese dragon. Kuru ^talk 23:08, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Here's one- could we merge the Japanese dragon and Korean dragon articles with the Chinese Dragon article under a broader heading? They are all similar in concept, and different from those discussed in the European dragon article. Onikage725 00:33, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Please see Talk:Korean_dragon. Anyway, the Japanese dragon especially, but all three dragons (Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese), have enough information about them to warrant separate articles. If you're going to request merging them, then you should also be requesting merges for Slavic dragons, Chuvash dragons, and Dragons in Greek mythology into European dragon as well. It's not fair to only distinguish between the different European dragons and not the different Asian dragons. 24.14.198.8 03:36, 19 August 2007 (UTC) Chris G.

Irrespective of the subject, the intention of the wiki needs to be kept in mind that its purpose is encyclopaedic rather than a treatise on the subject. The development of Western and Eastern dragons share enough similarities for the layperson to search for Dragons without understanding the variables that set aside the two. For the facility of the user, the single page would be best. To those who discuss the matter with an inticate knowledge on the matter, a Wiki article is probably of little use to their existing knowledge —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.4.225.54 (talk) 13:11, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Um, that's fine, but it's Lung, not Lóng. I read that in Dragonology. --Pumagirl7 (talk) 15:23, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I think that if you were to get a different page for all the different types of dragons we would crash the internet. If we compromise and put all the different types on one page, listing general differences, and letting them do a manual search for the different dragons, it would be a litle more effeicient. For example-

Dragons of Asia- Asian dragons are called lungs, and resemble snakes with four legs. although the number of toes vary among them, they all have the same temperment and...

I think this would work. -Andromoidus

Why the deletion?

Why has the list of world dragon myths been shortened? The Taniwha is at least as much a "dragon" as the Feathered Serpent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by NakedCelt (talk • contribs) 07:39, August 25, 2007 (UTC)

Don't you mean amphitheare? Sorry to be such a smart alec, but i like dragons too much. Also, if it is just a single dragon,(for example Niddhog) It might be mistaken for a name, not a species. I've yet to hear of the Taniwha! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.181.125.250 (talk) 21:29, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, i too know that a "feathered" dragon is the amphitheare, but is it the American or the Mexican species? There is a subtle difference between the two.--Shadowfoot09 (talk) 15:46, 8 September 2008 (UTC) Dragonology: Book of Dragons

Watersprout Connection

Irememeber i read somewhere that legends of oriental dragons might come from watersprouts too. Can anyone confirm this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.52.102.115 (talk) 21:22, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

The greek meaning?

Is it worth mentioning, do you think, that the Greek word Drakon or Drakonta meant to guard or to watch. As it was these words that inspired the Latin word Draco or Draconis which in turn inspired our word Dragon i felt it was rather apt to explain the initial meaning of the word.

This also tells us a lot about the greek dragons characteristics or at least in part how the dragon was viewed and that perhaps they were thought of as guardians in europe, at least for a time. Much of this is speculation but the words meanings are fact.

Just a thought.

Dinosaur connection

No discussion of connections to Asians thinking dinosaur bones were dragons and thus our dragons? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.165.22.104 (talk) 05:51, 3 October 2007 (UTC) I believe dragons were dinosaurs, living with men. Many indications from history shows men have always known about Dinosaurs. The word "dinosaur" wasn't created until the 1700s so what else would they call them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.229.191.141 (talk) 22:13, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

There are many edge theories about it, but they are just mere theories, nothing scientific. First: "men lived in the time of dinosaurs". The problem is that human genre seems to be about five million years old, and dinosaurs extincted about sixty-five million years ago. The other explanation is "somewhere some dinosaurs lived up until the ancient times". It says that a small fortunate population did not extinct, and this caused the legendary beasts. Nessy was one of them, and Hidra and every other dragon, who lives in a cave or in a lake in tales was the son of a fortunate dinosaur long ago. This theory is not exactly shit, but up until now there is no proof. So it is just a cryptozoologic theory, and nothing more.

81.183.125.137 (talk) (DJS, hu.wikipedia)

Ground-up rewrite?

This article suffers, at its core, from the bogus assumption that the word "dragon" has a central meaning in the way that "color" or "frog" does. All of the sections talk about "dragons" as if there were some ur-Dragon, some common draconality at the heart of the discussion. In fact, of course, the English language lumps creatures from all sorts of mythic traditions together under this term, with some editors more aggressive than others in dragging other culture's big-reptile myths under the umbrella. We need to think about a total re-write of this article, beginning to end, reflecting this latter reality. --Orange Mike 19:18, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Just went to your talkpage to follow up on SCA (and Poul Andersen) and saw there was a conversation about dragons going on. Couldn't resist. After several minutes of "thinking out loud" I've cut most of what I wrote and posted it here. I've set up a sandbox at User:Paularblaster/Here_be_dragons to try out some radical editing and rewriting that won't be too disruptive. Haven't actually started yet. Feel free to join in everyone. --Paularblaster (talk) 01:09, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Uuum, regardless of whether a Chinese dragon has anything in common with a European dragon, the title of this article is "Dragon". That means that it must include any myth that is referred to under the word "dragon", regardless of any "common draconality" among the myths. And which "big reptile myths" have had "dragon" applied to them? Almost everything in this article is descended from either the Western dragon tradition or the Eastern dragon tradition, and everyone calls Eastern dragons "dragons". After a point, you just have to accept that English is a weird, imprecise language. Pafferguy (talk) 14:23, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Creation "science"?

i'm altering the phrase "creation scientists" in the section on christianity. to call themselves scientists becaus ethey have a science-related degree is one thing, but to call them "creation scientists" suggests that what they do is, in fact, scientific, when it most assuredly is not. - Metanoid (talk, email) 03:38, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

cut out the very last sent in the pgh, too. if they want to read more of this garbage, they can follow the citation. - Metanoid (talk, email) 03:49, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Look at The "Kent Hovind" article. His website is www.drdino.com, another good one is www.evolution-facts.org.

heard it, seen it, watched the movie. this denialism isn't new; grew up young-earth creationist, and the garbage is constantly recycled. get over it. - Metanoid (talk, email) 19:26, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Look at your rude comments. And Wikipedia claims to be unbiased. *Rolls eyes*--72.80.32.187 (talk) 05:19, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Links

Hi guys

I was wondering on what your opinions about the lack of sources refferred to and likewise, the lack of links. The dragons page on Wikipedia is pretty phenominal but it cannot cover everything. There are many aspects of the dragon mythology missing. Mainly that of different viewpoints. Because mythology often boreders the unknown there is much speculation surrounding the areas where there are no facts. Therefore i think it might be worth putting in links to valid websites which deal with dragons in a responsible way.

Now i have to admit that i have a not so hidden agenda here. I feel there are a few websites which deserve mentioning here.

The 1st and foremost i would like to put forward is the Dragon Stone by Polenth. A superb resource with a fair bit of infomation about dragons. Much of it is fact, much of it is speculation. But it does generally state which is which

I would also like to put my site forward as a link. Dragons Touch. I of course would vouch for its validity but i dont think i count due to being biased. However it is similar to Dragon stone in that it does state when reading is speculation or fact.

Just my opinion, but i feel sites like these would be a welcome addition to the Dragon wiki,

What are your opinions? Perhaps i am very mistaken?

(Dariune (talk) 16:15, 10 December 2007 (UTC))

Sorry, but neither of these sites meet our standards for reliable sources, nor our guidelines for external links. They are dragon fansites: venues for speculation and guesswork, with no scholarly content not better found directly elsewhere. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:19, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I had a feeling you might reply like that and if i can i would like to ask one more question. Could you elaborate? In what respect do you mean scholarly? Are we looking for university educated researchers? In which case i currently have a paleontology professer who teaches at a university in England (i cant mention which one yet) researching a theory for the dragons anatomy with me. How is it they break the standards? I can assure you there is no guesswork on either site. Though there is much speculation, there always is with hostory or mythology.

I am not trying to be argumentative nor do i actually have any real hope of getting either site onto the page. I am partly just creating conversation and mostly genuinly interested in where the Wikipedia boys are coming from.

Thanks (Dariune (talk) 16:25, 10 December 2007 (UTC))

Well, some of our best boys are girls, of course. More seriously: by scholarly, I mean the kind of thing that would pass peer review in a paleontological or archeological journal, as opposed to fun speculation and intellectual gameplaying of the sort that makes a good science fiction fanzine article. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:46, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Of course i meant girls as well ;) Orange thankyou for your answer. That short reply managed to answer all of my questions. I finally understand what it is you are looking for. I dont think Dragons Touch has potential to appear on here. Especially given the projects in circulation at DT at the moment. However, you are right, Dragons Touch is not ready to appear here as it stands now. I dont know what the Dragon Stone is currently working on, but i do know much of their infomation is recipricated. Therefore is also not ready to be here.

You may well hear from me again with the same question in the future. But not until i have subjected my own work for a Peer Review. And my own work will not be complete for a short while yet. (Dariune (talk) 16:54, 10 December 2007 (UTC))

The thing you have to decide for your site is what your goal is. If it's to be recognised as an academic resource of the sort that could be in a journal, you'd have to cut most of your site. It isn't just a case of making sure the mythology sections are researched well... you'd need to cut anything speculative from the whole site. It isn't worth doing that for the sake of a link from Wikipedia. Nor would most people suggest it. Your site doesn't have to match Wikipedia's goals to be a good site. Goals like fun and encouraging speculation/debate are perfectly valid goals for a site. Polenth (talk) 20:06, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh i couldnt agree more. hello Polenth :) No, what i will suggesting be put as a link will be the work im currently doing. But that will be for another conversation. I personally feel you cannot hav a site deciated to any style of mythology with out educated speculation or even guesswork. There are some things we just dont know, especially about a creature that doesnt exist. We are infact delving into the physche of the human mind during various periods of history. That being the case you cannot claim fact %100 of the time. The only facts are the pieces of physical evidence found and even then we can but assume on their purpose. So i do not propose to change my site to get a link from Wiki nor do i feel the need to make getting a link my goal. I was merely interested in Wiki's answer.(Dariune (talk) 09:27, 11 December 2007 (UTC))

I had the same problem with Wiki, being deleted and links deleted because of make believe dragon agenda here. Then I wrote Occult Dragon, and atheist from here eventually stalked me and deleted and attacked me again. With a editor, mentor wannabe in tow they deleted me and ran away. lmvao To the point "make believe dragon agenda", Well yesterday Marines' Sea Dragon helicopter crashed at Corpus Cristie, Texas killing 3.Wuotan (talk) 13:54, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Occult dragon was deleted for CSD G1 - patent nonsense. Wikipedia is not many things, and for fictional topics that border on cultural phenomenon, it's pretty difficult to write a strong article - lots of popular support, little academic attention. I'd guess that all of the cryptozoology articles are like this. WLU (talk) 14:25, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Here's a thought though, there is a DMOZ on dragons:

Template:Dmoz

Any thoughts on including it? It does include a lot of the fan sites and it means we don't have to link to a thousand of them. WLU (talk) 14:29, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

again a god damned idiot has the string on the back of his neck pulled and he insults me. Occult dragon is the truth and censorship against legitmate understanding is why it isn't here.Wuotan (talk) 15:47, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I would say that in an article on a mythological creature you should use sources on the original myths about dragons. These are the closest thing to being "canon" that you can get. Pafferguy (talk) 17:43, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Too many images

This article is getting crowded with images; we already link to the Commons gallery at the bottom (and could, if needed, add our own gallery). Any thoughts on which to remove? I'll wait a reasonable period for comments. – Luna Santin (talk) 01:41, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I've removed a likely non-free image which was recently added, and may well end up deleted. There's an argument for removing Image:Ouroboros 1.jpg on the basis that it doesn't illustrate the text near which it is placed, and can be seen at the article Ouroboros which is linked in a different paragraph. There's no mention in the entire article of the dragon waterspout at Ulm Cathedral, so I'm unsure as to why Image:Germany Ulm Dragon.jpg is being used. --Sturm 10:53, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Hadn't noticed this talk section before removing the Ouroboros and Ulm pictures, for exactly the same reason. The Naga could also go, under the same reasoning, and I'm not sure what the Peruvian artifact is illustrating, when the article makes no mention of Peru. --McGeddon (talk) 14:54, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I think you (guys working here) have done a nice image research. Congratulations.--20-dude (talk) 05:13, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Discovery Channel crap

Lately there have been several (or one that they rerun a lot) specials about dragons in which they talk about reptilian creatures that produced fire with their breath. I'm plenty aware Discovery Channel if not that good as a source of scientific cites, and I have not seen them myself (the special[s], of course :P), but several of my friends were left under the impression they were talking about creatures that really existed.

I'm not implying that we should go along with the Discovery's publication at all, stating that there might have been such creature. But it could be nice to talk about what the special mentioned and research where does its idea of such creatures came from. Something like Discovery Channel has said "this" about possibly real dragons, comming from "X" source, but "Y" top scientific/academic institution has "Z" position." You know what I mean?--20-dude (talk) 05:13, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

hey, waddya know, they might exist! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.229.236.72 (talk) 16:14, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I've closed the poll on the article merge

I've closed the poll on the article merge. It was opened all the way back in July of 2007 and there's been no clear consensus. Start a new poll if anybody wants to, I have no objection to a new poll. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 17:17, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Dragons breathe Ice

In the Spyro games, Spyro The Dragon can breathe Ice, he also can breathe lightning, so there are sources for this. The Winged Yoshi —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Winged Yoshi (talk • contribs) 01:33, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

This is very non-notable as related to the archetype on the whole; while yes, dragons traditionally breathed fire (and poison, incidentally, a trope which came back in D&D) I think it was D&D which really brought the "dragons breathing everything" to the forefront, and while perhaps slightly notable, I don't know that it is very important. Titanium Dragon (talk) 23:28, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Dragons could possibly control all elements, so there could be reality in Spyro, maybe not breathing, but manipulating. -Knowledgeabletome (talk) 03:38, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that it is reasonable to put ice breath under the dragon overview. The original Norse and Greek dragons were poisonous serpents, and later European myths called dragons fire-breathers along with adding wings and legs. However, the idea of dragons breathing ice was (as far as I know) not invented until modern times. With this in mind, I intend to remove the dragons breathing ice bit from the article. Pafferguy (talk) 22:09, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

I would support that. DreamGuy (talk) 15:21, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Weasel Words

Because of this edit:

Most experts on mythology and folklore argue that legends of dragons are based upon ordinary snakes and similar creatures coupled with common psychological fears amongst disparate groups of humans.

I've added the weasel words tag. X Marks The Spot (talk) 10:56, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

There are still many weasel words used in this article, especially in the Overview section. I am adding the weasel words tag back. Bourgeoisdude (talk) 18:18, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Two of the same picture

The carving in the Hopperstad church appears twice in the same section with slightly different captions. If someone has a good replacement image for one of these, that would be excellent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thee darcy (talk • contribs) 19:57, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Naga

Since when are Nagas dragons? The word Naga is more associated with serpents & giant serpents. (Because under the definition of this article, than a anaconda would be a "dragon") In fact the word is used, generically, to refer to serpents. Furthered by the fact that Nagas have human attributes, something dragons lack. Xuchilbara (talk) 18:17, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Dragon Toes

• It says on this page that Chinese Dragons have 4 claws on each foot, but it says on the Chinese Dragon page that it has 5 claws on each foot. Would somebody please find the right information and correct this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.194.224.134 (talk) 00:12, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
• The number of toes on Chinese dragons depends on the social rank of the man who is displaying the image. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:25, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
• Isn't there something about in what direction it is walking? --Knowledgeabletome (talk) 03:39, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Eragon Note

It was Morzan not Murtagh who was evil, Murtagh was his son. Megancara (talk) 14:18, 28 June 2008 (UTC) Murtgh was forced into serving evil. -Knowledgeabletome —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.57.125.252 (talk) 03:34, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Modern Literature

This whole section is poorly written and in rather bad taste if you ask me. Why has it survived so many edits? 24.65.181.254 (talk) 09:06, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Welsh Dragon

You got the white dragon representing the Saxons right, but the Red dragon is wrong. Why would a King Arthur related character predict the Welsh winning the war with the Saxons, the Welsh as such were not around at the time? Note; Merlin and King Arthur are part of English folk stories. Its the symbol of the English (or rather the Celts, however they were the "english" people as such at the time). At the time they were fighting with the Saxons over the right to England after the Romans had long left. The red dragon beating the white symbolised the English were going to push back and defeat the invaders, the Saxons, which we all know never happened.

I don't know the reason why the welsh ended up with the red dragon unfortunately. All I know is they did. I was once saw a documentry based on the question "How did the Dragon of the English become the symbol of Wales?" on it but never saw the ending of the program that explained it. --92.232.91.192 (talk) 20:08, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

It was the Celtic Britons collectively who wished to combat the Saxon menace. Centuries later, the idea was that the Welsh would use this old symbol of hope to repel the English, which we all know never happened. 98.221.133.96 (talk) 13:26, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

• The Welsh are descended from the Britons who lived in the area. The Welsh did manage to stop the Anglo-Saxons from overrunning Wales and changing its language and place names to Anglo-Saxon. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:27, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I meant ultimately, i.e. Wales is now part of the UK, and was actually annexed into England itself for a while. 98.221.133.96 (talk) 09:25, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, could someone change the reference to Welsh Dragons in the European Dragons list to indicate that the Red dragon is originally a Celtish symbol and that Merlin's prophecy was that of the Celtic victory over the Saxons, not the English (English being the term used to describe the people of England which includes Celts, Angles, Saxons, Normans, and many others). —Preceding unsigned comment added by WyrmUK (talk • contribs) 13:04, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Wrong title included.

In the article, the reference to J.K Rowlings first book in the Harry Potter series is improperly titled "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone". Could someone please correct it to read "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone".

Biggardener (talk) 20:39, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

It was only called that in the States because the concept of the Philosopher's Stone was regarded as a wee bit too difficult for the Americans.Janeinhouse (talk) 05:46, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Image suggestion

I found this image on commons and thought that it was good enough to merit inclusion in this article, but I don't want to disrupt the article's organisation. Could a resident author include it? Dhatfield (talk) 00:52, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Other notes on dragons

Dragons in general have become symbols of great power. Modern dragons are typically much larger than humans, fly, and have somekind of breath weapon. These three attributes are closely aligned with maleness, interestingly the first dragon mentioned was the Bablonian Bahemut said to be the mother, not father, of all evil. Bahemut was slain and her corpse became the world.

Magic: the Gathering (CCG), Talisman (board game), as well as Dungeons and Dragons (Roleplaying game) portray dragons as a great and brutal power although some do possess some intellectual-based power. Dragons are associated with rage and single-minded destruction.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Teslon (talk • contribs) 22:37, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Oriental dragons do not have wings for the fact that they fly via magic. Oriental dragons also gave the chinese their number system from the symbols on their back.

It is also said that the organs of dragons are usefull. Such as the heart that, once eaten can enable you to talk to animals. And the teeth that if you spread them out on the grond an army of skeletons or an army of some sort will arise and will obey youre every command. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mohawk guy8 (talk • contribs) 00:57, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

In Babylonian mythology, it's Tiamat, not Bahamut. And she was distinctly female. 75.35.115.198 (talk) 02:47, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Real Dragons

The name dragon is often given to animals. These animals bare no genetic relationship to each other, they just have some trait that makes them look like dragons. Some are listed below:

Lizards

Komodo Dragons, Dragon lizards

Snakes

Chinese water dragon, Australian water dragon

Fish

Leafy sea dragon, Weedy sea dragon, Dragonfish

Insects

Dragonfly

But komodo dragons are supposed to be evolved from dragons. And they do bare genetic relationships to dragons. The poison that is secreted from their mouths helps them to track their prey. They are the most similar in aspects of genetics, apart from the wings ofcourse. Assyria hightower (talk) 12:04, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Cham dragon

Why is the makara listed as a "Cham dragon"? First of all the makara isn't a dragon either in appearance or concept. It's a hybrid creature from Hindu mythology and the Hindu dragon is called a naga. Which brings me to the next point being that makara are not unique to the Chams at all. Being of Hindu origin, the makara comes from India and is the vahana of the god Varuna. Not just Chams but all Hindus believed in the makara legend.He believes that Dragons where once walking around, where we stand today and there are still some roaming around today."We just don't see them."He said. Morinae (talk) 11:36, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Missing symbols

I miss some other symbolic meaning of the dragon, such as "earth spirit" (especially in Asian mythology) and the phallic explanations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.183.125.137 (talk) 13:16, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Types of Dragons

I noticed that the table including the different dragon types across the globe has at least one error: Siberian Dragons isn't in the normal scheme but instead, is sticking off to the side and filling in three columns not existant on any other rows within the table. JourneyV (talk) 19:43, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Formatting error. It's been fixed. Arsonal (talk) 02:51, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Albanian Dragon

I entered the Albanian Dragon as it was missing from the table.The Albanian dragon(dragua) is mentioned in the "Tales of LLogora".It is described as an animal many times bigger than the horse and with strange powers,different than other animals.It cannot be killed by humans and the only one to kill that is the spirit of the forest (Oret).Humans cannot see that unless it unveils itself.It can live up to 100 years but not longer than that.It has a horn and big ears while his eyes are very powerful.It can see much more than the eagle does and he is more clever than a crow or the oldest wolf of the forest.It speaks in the human language.This is a short description I found in hte book overview.User:Nicholson1989 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 19:27, 13 November 2008 (UTC). I do not get this place? can u help me pepole

Zmey Gorynych has three heads, but the picture shows at least four

The article reads "Zmey Gorynych, the dragon of the Slavic mythology. Its name is translated as "Snake son-of-mountain", it has three heads, wings, and it spits fire (20th century painting)." But the painting there shows at least four clearly recognizable heads, and a few other bits which might be heads also. I thought that a bit odd. Dream Focus (talk) 00:46, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Mirrors

The note by 24.117.49.103 that dragons always hate mirrors begs citation (diff here[1]). Ghits show it's a feature of video game story so maybe it should be put that way and located differently? Julia Rossi (talk) 09:19, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

"Dragons always hate mirrors"? Why has this not been cut entirely? 82.35.56.65 (talk) 23:13, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Origin of Dragons

Is it too naive to consider the possibility that the mythology of Dragons began with early discoveries of dinosaur bones? Dinosaur bones can be found in many places around the world, and are impressive enough that no culture would be able to ignore them. Some prehistoric Asian, European, Greek, or whomever is looking for food in the mountains, rock slide, big dinosaur skull peeks out at him. Guy freaks out, runs back to his village, tells the story, and the mythology of giant lizards is born. Myth gets expanded on over time because giant lizards obviously capture the human imagination quite well. Seems like a good Occam's Razor argument to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.115.221.174 (talk) 17:21, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

We can't use Occam's Razor in an article, we'd need a good source. And we in fact have a very good one and I keep meaning to use it, Adrienne Mayor, who has written a whole book on it. See this for a flavour of what she says: [2] dougweller (talk) 18:50, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Babylon dragons

There are many Dragons in the ishtar gate which was constructed in about 575 BC by order of King Nebuchadnezzar II on the north side of the Babylon city.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ce/Pergamonmuseum_Ishtartor_02.jpg/800px-Pergamonmuseum_Ishtartor_02.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ayad71 (talk • contribs) 21:49, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

That is clearly a horse. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.105.121.125 (talk) 03:07, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Of course. All horses have scales, forked tongues and clawed feet. It's so obvious. 68.205.68.57 (talk) 20:53, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Correction to Biblical Translation

I speak fluent Hebrew, and the translation in both Isiah and Job refer to the sperpent not as a flying one, but as a serpent. And in Genesis, Chapter 1, Verse 22, G-d creates "sea monsters", meaning all animals that live in the water, not any type of mythical beast.--ARDelaney (talk) 04:10, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Koi fish turn into dragons.

I have recently heard that in Japanese mythology the dragon comes from the Koi fish. Hence their similarities with the wiskers and whatnot. In order to accomplish this the Koi fish has to swim up a certain waterfall at a ertain point in time in order to accomplish "Dragonhood." Based on this, people say Koi fish sybolize pushing forward in life. Or trying to acheivesomething, and even perseverance. Also from this it is said that Dragons symbolize an acheived level of maturity, accomplishment and wisdom. If anyone has further information on this please add it to the wikipedia page under "Dragons." Or simply reply. THX —Preceding unsigned comment added by JONQUINTANA (talk • contribs) 22:06, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

There's a start here on google[3] and the story ranges from 360 carp who tried and one who made it at the Dragon Gate, from all Koi having special qualities of character. Don't have tiime to pursue it, but you can improve the article if the references are more than a blog (unless the blog gives great references). :) Julia Rossi (talk) 21:35, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Reality of dragons.

The article discusses dragons as being purely mythological, yet in Europe until early modern times dragons were regarded as real creatures,on the basis of many supposedly dependable accounts. The guy who ultimately killed off dragons was Linnaeus in the 18th century, with his ambitious project of cataloging all living things: when his collectors spread out all over the world and came back with samples, skins etc., their findings did not include any dragons —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.183.134.208 (talk) 12:08, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Rahab link points to incorrect page

In section 2.7 (last sentence) the link is meant to point to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rahab_(demon) but instead it currently points to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rahab. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.101.58.26 (talk) 18:44, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

American (Pre-Columbian) Dragons

This should include "american" dragons, such as Pre-Columbian's Quetzalcoatl or Ojibwe's Mishipizheu, both of which—although considered deities—are "mythological" beasts (Feathered serpent and Underwater panther, respectively). Barroba (talk) 07:15, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Huh?

Chinese dragons can also develop wings over a life span of 3,500 years.

That sounds quite out of context? --Echosmoke (talk) 22:40, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Removed it, next time feel free to remove something like that yourself, but thanks for the tip. Dougweller (talk) 06:03, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Drakes

• And Dragons are two different things. I'd fix it myself but I do not know how to undo a redirect.

MacGvyer (talk) 20:05, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

• "Drake" is another word for "Dragon". Just because some fantasy series and the like use the two words for different things, doesn't change the meaning of either word. --Orange Mike | Talk 00:07, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
• To most people, at least here in England, "drake" first means an adult male duck. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:20, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Well, yeah, of course; but this new editor was trying to create a distinction between the dragon and other mythological wyrms called drakes, apparently based on a gaming system or fantasy universe where such a distinction is made. Given that these are just two Englishings of the Latin draco, I was not supportive. --Orange Mike | Talk 22:06, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Biased toward Atheism

Note: Darwanian Evolution and Origins aren't included in this article, which excludes specific religous worldviews clashing being the problem, but rather the article being biased towards the atheistic worldview.

Its not scientific fact that dinosaurs lived million of years ago. Its scientific fact that rocks date millions of years ago. Dating the fossils by what rock they appear in isn't accurate. Nor does that make it truth. It only relies on atheistic views which disregard any and all explanations. If they can keep their religion Macroevolution into the picture by stating theres a gap in the Geologic Timescale which explains why there aren't transitional fossils, then they'll do so even if it disregards fact.

Dragons and Dinosaurs go hand in hand. Its pretty obvious to everyone reading when the article ends with, "They made up Heros and Dragons fighting to describe a time when these bones existed". Obvious cover up for "Everything in all cultures spanning countries, peoples, and nations concerning dragons over a period of thousands of years are made up because unreliable dating methods, (specifically using rocks to determine the ages of fossils) says that dinosaurs lived 65 million years ago. And yet from 65 million years ago to today there is a HUGE gap from any other fossil/bones. How if 65 million year old bones are perserved, anything else within that timeframe, which would be billion and billions of fossils can't be found?

Also, they completelty ignore any other evidence from Human Culture/Historical Articles, like Solomon keeping a "dragon" in his Temple, how only 400 years ago actual Dictionaries accounted Dragons as "Real Serpantine Creatures that are rarely seen today", and how many cultures spanning nations all believe Dragons exist. The Book of Job mentions what sounds like a known Dinosaur. Scientists also fail to mention how they found a dinosaur bone that still had fleshy marrow inside of it. Are we supposed to assume 65 million years isn't enough to kill flesh?

Who stated the origins of Dragons are from snakes? Really? Dinosaurs existed and match perfectly with Dragons and yet the origins of Dragons are snakes? If thats not biased towards a belief that rejects everything Humans had to say on that matter, and rely soley on assumptions of the past, then I don't know what is. Isn't Wikipedia supposed to be unbiased? If this article fails to mention dinosaurs its because of one reason: They are biased towards secular scientist's worldview and not scientifc facts. Mwarriorjsj7 (talk) 23:39, 20 October 2009 (UTC)