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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 87.254.80.176 (talk) at 13:38, 21 October 2009. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Religious context

I find this section to be very vague and full of generalizations. I know that there are varying views, but there are too many times where "many" or "most" are used with zero substantiation. Anybody up to tackling this to make it more concise?142.221.110.4 (talk) 02:46, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. For instance--Lutherans and other protestants do not "celebrate the holiday as Reformation Day." This wording suggests that they have transformed Halloween into Reformation Day in the same way that some Fundamentalists have transformed Halloween into a harvest festival. Rather, Reformation Day is an entirely independent holiday commemorating the fact that Martin Luther nailed the 95 theses to the door of the castle church at Wittemberg on 31 October 1517. (Monty Python fans know the rest.)PurpleChez (talk) 18:17, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You Carve Pumpkins, Not Jack-o-lanterns

You carve a pumpkin to get a Jack-o-lantern. I propose changing it. Logrolls (talk) 16:59, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate the point, but by this logic one cannot sculpt a statue, paint a portrait, cook a meal, bake a cake, knit a sweater.... PurpleChez (talk) 18:27, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The festival that became Halloween in North America is not just an Irish festival

I noticed that this article slants a little too much towards the Irish influences in the cultural expansion of the festival of Halloween to America and beyond. The festival although celtic in origin has been celebrated throughout these islands and pre-dates all the countries. Still the festival that became Halloween in America has other influences and

The festival started well before the Irish famine and is noted in 1820, moreover every group (not just Irish, but Scottish, English, Welsh as well as German and Mexicans and Spanish) had an occult tradition that was incorporated into the tradition of Halloween. Also the Scottish and Irish and German influences in Appalachia are huge as cited in. Halloween: An American Holiday, an American History By Lesley Pratt Bannatyne

All saints day immigrated to America as an Irish and Scottish festival and evolved into a large scale festival by the early 20th century. Halloween: From Pagan Ritual to Party Night By Nicholas Rogers

Halloween traditions were taken by the Scots and Irish to America The Encyclopaedia Americana Volume 13 by Grolier Incorporated

The custom we celebrate in North America has its origins in the lands of Celtic Ireland, Britain…halloween traditions were brought to America by the English, Irish and Scottish. Halloween By Robert A. McCracken, Diana Colquhoun

I will edit accordingly if no objections Old man of the wood (talk) 15:04, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

At this time the claim is sourced that it was the Irish who introduced it to the USA. Your sources seem to disprove that source, I would sugest that something like "although often regarded as an Irish tradition (old source) others (one of the new sources) claim it was brought over by the Enlish or Scots, as well as the Irish (a couple of other sources)."Slatersteven (talk) 15:10, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The article also seems very slanted towards North American observance, when this tradition originates (and is still celebrated) elsewhere. --John (talk) 15:19, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It was always robustly celebrated in Ireland, from the old Irish tradition of Samhain. It was brought to USA by Irish people fleeing the famine, that much is certain. From my reading it was not celebrated in England or Scotland, although it would be a calender day, and Guy Faulks was the big event there for some hundreds of years, Nov 6th. For those reasons it never reached Australia, South Africa, or New Zealand until this last few years. Tfz 00:27, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It was a huge deal when I was growing up in Scotland in the 1970s. Guy Fawkes Night (November 5) was only celebrated by one side of the sectarian divide, for reasons that are obvious. But everybody dressed up and went out guising. --John (talk) 00:56, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The 19th century I meant. Scotland like England was very protestant up until then, and it was a no no. Certainly wasn't celebrated in England in 1970s when I lived there until I was 14. It was all Guy Fawkes then. Tfz 01:13, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Tfz, you’ll find that the festival which has its roots in pre-Christian northern Europe that is called Samhain was also robustly practiced in Scotland as well as the isle of Mann for centuries as well and like Ireland but that its origins are lost in the mists of time. It was a time when the old gods were worshiped in whatever form they took in these islands. The name may be gaelic but the harvest festival was important to all peoples especially to the pre-industrial gael and brythonic celts in Britain and the Island of Ireland. Even the name Samhain shows similarities to the Gallic French word Samonios which was held as a harvest festival at the same time and will have a common etymology.
I can understand what you’re saying about the reformation discouraging Halloween in Scotland. But into pre-history to the industrial revolution the people of Scotland like the people of Ireland celebrated Halloween and it never stopped due to the reformation. Nor was the fifth of November supplanted as the festival of choice in the 19th century over Halloween by the British government in Scotland. The traditions still were held strong in villages, kirks and communities throughout Scotland from the worship of the pagan spirit Seonaidh in Lewis to the samhnag and fires of Perthshire and the pagan origins of the fontingall fires and Càrn na Marbh as well as other festivals to celibrate throughout the country. As an example to back this up look at the following.
…There is no evidence that the state sponsored fifth displaced or radically altered the conventions of Halloween….the Scottish kirk took a pragmatic view attitude towards seasonal reveals that were important to the life-cycle and rites of passage of local communities especially where it anticipated real difficulty in curbing them. Resulting in Halloween co-existing indeed vie with the Fifth as a night of prankish fun.
The eve of all souls was quintessentially considered the more Scottish of the two festivals…
…In Scotland the festival is known as Samhain and many of these rituals are directly linked to the old celtic sagas….
The blending of pagan and Christian belief was also reflected in the Scottish customs.
The stations of the sun: a history of the ritual year in Britain By Ronald Hutton
Also I posted as Old man of the forest, but lost my password and will use this name just to confirm. Of the forest (talk) 13:17, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No OR please,. From the Chronical of Celttic folk customs Section headings on Halloweeen, Ireland, Isle of Man, Scotland(some ancient halloween customs observed up untill the 1900's), Wales (again some ancient traditions were still in use up till the end of the 19thC), Brittany. In a dictioanry of British folk customs it notes that Guy Fawkes night abosrbed many of Englands cutoms But also notes that in some areas there are still some surviving folk customs associated with helloween. So it is not true to say its an Irish traddition, or that it was more robuslty celebrated. It was an ancient Celtic festival celebrated by all with great ronbustness save the english (who instead moved it to celebration of one of the worlds first terrorist attacks).Slatersteven (talk) 13:32, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
And why not Australia and New Zealand, who both boast very major English and Scottish influence, the festival didn't exist there until brought from America. The Gaels from Ireland brought many customs to Scotland including the Scottish Gaelic Language, but the question here is not about the ancient origins and culture. Neither can we appropriate old Irish customs like Samhain, Bealtaine etc. The substantive point is that the USA tradition was brought over by Irish immigrants fleeing the Great Famine, from the 1840s onward, and that's certainly the case. Tfz 14:23, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The two books I used only cover eithere Britain or the lands of the Celts (they do not men tion the USA either). http://www.halloween-australia.com/halloween-history.php has this to say "Trick-or-treating apparently partly comes from the English medieval practice of "souling" odd they dont attribute it to the USA if they inported it from there. By the way Austraila also had a large Irish imigration too. It also should be ppointed oout that by the time Australia (and New Zeeland were colonised Guy Fawks night had already taken over from Helloween in Britain.Slatersteven (talk) 14:32, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That's the point I was making, 'All Souls Day' being a Roman Catholic festival, wasn't celebrated by Protestantism, so the festival if celebrated died out with Reformation and the turning away from Catholic Fest Days. Catholic Ireland kept it alive, and it was them and their version that the USA holds today. No doubt some of the customs have changed this last hundred years. Souling is a pan European practice, and it is also documented as part of Halloween in Ireland for several hundred years, it's not unique. Tfz 14:50, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I see what you’re trying to say about All Saints Day being perceived by protestant communities in Scotland (and therefore by association in Ireland too) as being phased out as I dare to say it by them as “popish” saint worship. However this is not and was not the case. The practice of the tradition of Halloween was encouraged as being an Ulster-Scottish and Scottish tradition. In fact the Scots Protestants clung to Halloween in Scotland as a cultural identifier and in Ulster as seen in an accounts bellow;

From 1770-1840; …The observance of Halloween is a distinguishing characteristic of the Ulster-Scots. Feasting and celebration was considered appropriate as harvest had been gathered in and cattle had returned from summer grazing… The shaping of Ulster Presbyterian belief and practice, 1770-1840 By Andrew R. Holmes.


…Halloween in Northern Ireland has English, Irish and Scottish elements in a creative amalgam of customs that form a unique celebration… The hallowed eve: dimensions of culture in a calendar festival in Northern Ireland By Jack Santino


And here in the following publication; …In 1799 a play entitled a “Scottish Spectacle” in the protestant borders was commissioned with Halloween themes to add atmosphere of otherworldliness. Influenced by the publication of the Burns poem “Halloween” which was inspired by the act of union in 1707 as many Scots feared a loss of cultural identity. Burns set to boister Scottish identity and pride with a poem in 1786 detailing the Scottish traditions of Halloween…


…By 1788 American booksellers had the book…and was read especially passionately by ex-patriot Scots in America and Canada where his poetry came to stand for Scotland before the act of union. The Scottishness of Halloween…on both sides of the atlantic inspired many poems....


Even a tale called “The Tale of The Ferry House: A Scottish Tale of Halloween” by John Galt published in 1834, so the Halloween culture and significance is a part of Scottish culture protestant or otherwise and well into the 19th century. A Halloween Reader: Poems, Play and stories of Halloween Past. By Leslie Pratt Bannatyne.


The following quote will be of interest and relevant to this discussion in America from the 18th century;


…The southern states were predominantly settled by the Scots-Irish (themselves who are protestant) and the English (who are protestant) and these traditions influenced the holiday of Halloween in America....


…The English shared a common celtic-folk heritage as their neighbours in the British isles…


More strikingly that;

…The culture of Voudon or Voodoo was influential in the formation of the modern holiday in the south.

As well as the Scottish, Irish, Scots-irish and German protestant influences to the modern Halloween tradition…


So Halloween according to Bannatyne does not originate from an exclusively Catholic Irish tradition, the American festival changed and adapted due to various Catholic, Irish Catholic, Scots-Irish protestant, Scots, English protestant, German protestant traditions and those of African Vudon (voodoo) influences. Just like America it was a melting pot of ideas that formed the modern holiday.

Or this one;

Halloween is not time for division in sectarian politics, and it was celebrated to bring groups together. In Canada the Scots societies observed Halloween with annual concerts and celebrated their Scottishness in the festival….(no doubt on the back of the Burns poem in 1786).


…Irish men and women and the persistent numbers of Scots as well ensured the festival would serve as a marker for ethnic identity…


…In 1864 trouble faired as the Orange order in Canada celebrated the holiday (again another protestant fraternal organisation in north America celebrated the festival of Halloween in 1860s)…

Halloween from Pagan Ritual To Party Night by Nicholas Rodgers. Ch 3. Coming over; Halloween in north America


The Scots and English were not culturally bereft of a Halloween tradition because they are protestant, they had their own folk culture rooted in the celtic practices of the British Isles that were pagan in origin and part of the Halloween tradition in writing and publication innthe 18th and 19th centuries and the church could never fully stamp them out. Protestants embraced the holiday and exported it to the states before the great Famine or Scottish Highland Famine. That saw 2 million irish and 1.7 million scots emigrate due to hunger. I think you will have to have some printed references to back up your claim the Irish Catholics are the sole contributors to the American Halloween tradition and culture. But it appears that such a view is contested. Regards. Of the forest (talk) 23:20, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I might get a lot of flak for this, but many of the customs/traditions/organizations we here in American generally perceive to be Irish Catholic in origin are probably really of Protestant Ulster-Scot (or Scotch-Irish in common American lingo) origin. I'm not sure why they are considered Irish/Catholic, unless it is because many Americans are not even aware of the "other" (i.e. Protestant) Irish, and tend to think of Ireland only in terms of Catholicism. My own family is originally from Ireland. We are Protestants and have been here so many generations that we have no family memory of Ireland, and I've had relatives ask me, if we were originally Irish, when did we give up Catholicism. Of course, we never were Catholic to begin with, but were Scotch-Irish Protestants. The point is that I think many Americans think in terms of "Irish" equals "Catholic". I wouldn't be surprised if that is the reason Americans view Halloween as Irish Catholic in origin. Eastcote (talk) 23:36, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There is a poor habit of trying to make things from the past fit neatly into the perception of who or what is "Catholic", "Protestant", "Scottish" or "Irish" in our time. Two (and a half) things to think about before expressing anything relating to Scotland/Ireland/Catholicism/Protestantism from the past: a) the word "Scot" originally referred to someone from the island of Ireland; b) the English (or actually the French!) originally invaded Ireland to make it Catholic (i.e. to bring it under the jurisdiction of the Pope, who the Irish, while Christian, did not recognise as having authority).
If something from the past doesn't fit neatly into what we perceive to the the correct box for it today, please don't try to squeeze it in. The modern association of "Catholicism" with "Irishness" is quite new and does not mean that Halloween has to fit into a "Catholic" box. Likewise, the fact that today, Scotland and Ireland are two distinct countries does not mean that Halloween had to originate in one or the other, but not both.
The remark from John above that when he was growing up in Scotland in the 70's, "everybody dressed up and went out guising", is something to dwell upon. "Guising" is a word that has long passed out of the Irish vocabulary - and has been replace wholly by the American phrase "trick or treating" - but it was the normal turn of phrase for the practice at least until the early 20th century in Ireland. For practical reasons of history, we cannot, without qualification, say that Halloween originated in America, and not Ireland. But for the same reason, it cannot be said that it originated in Ireland, and not Scotland.
It should also be borne in mind that customs are a thing that are fluid over time. They are not a thing that can be pinned down to one historical version that can be said to be the sole "authentic" variant. The modern "American(ised)" festival (if it is really much changed at all!) is hardly unauthentic or being of our time or for simply being the dominant form today - or simply for not have originated (whatever that means) in America. The festival as practiced in Ireland or Scotland today cannot be described as being to be "contaminated" or "replaced" by the Americanised version. In the same way, while the festival as we know it may historically have originated in Ireland-Scotland, of course it has influences from other places in Europe. Ireland-Scotland was not isolated from festivals in the rest of the Europe then - no more that they are isolated from Halloween as it is practiced in America today. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 00:58, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

modern halloween costumes are also very untraditional with carachters from television and movies costume possibilities are endless in our time, with all the stores and boutiques, you can find Halloween costumes almost anywhere. :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.7.104.222 (talk) 11:40, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To return to the root of the argument, there is too much of an Irish slant on this article. Celtic new year traditions were not unique to Ireland - for example, coverage of the ancient Manx festival "Hop tu naa" is missing. The reference cited as [4] seems to refer to an article that doesn't actually agree that Halloween was brought over by Irish immigrants as cited - it notes Irish immigration as a factor, but also acknowledges other influences that IMHO should be given equal credence if you're going to use it as a reference.

There's also some questionable Irishness about "Jack O'Lantern" which authoritative sources seem to disagree with - the online etymology dictionary, for example states "Jack o'lantern 1663, a local name for a Will-o-the-wisp (L. ignis fatuus), mainly attested in East Anglia but also in southwestern England. The extension to carved pumpkins is 1837, Amer.Eng.". The OxforD Dictionary of Phrase and fable (2006) says "jack-o'lantern originally a man with a lantern, a night watchman; from this, an ignis fatuus or will-o-the-wisp. The term in these senses is recorded from the 17th century. From the mid 19th century, jack-o'-lantern has also been used (originally in the US) for a lantern made from a hollowed-out pumpkin or turnip in which holes are cut to represent facial features, typically made at Halloween."

The association with the colloquial name for the lantern carrier/will-o-the-wisp is much more plausible than the Irish citation, which sounds like a myth made up to justify the name. IMHO, the article isn't well-referenced or neutral enough to be considered a good article at the moment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.254.80.176 (talk) 18:42, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Manx connection to Ireland is the same as the Scottish connection - they were both, at one time, Gaelic countries.
Jack o'lantern is not an Irish word, no more than "trick or treat" is. Carved lanterns were a part of the Irish tradition but not called "jack o'lanterns" as far as I know. In the same way, what we (in Ireland) would now call "trick or treating" was previously called "guising". This does not mean that people didn't dress up and go around the place. It just means that they called it something else. The origin of the words to describe things is different from the origin of the thing. Don't confuse the two. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 18:59, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a bit confused by your last sentence. To clarify, I have two specific problems that I think need to be looked at - the reference for [4] points to an article that does not specifically cite Halloween as a solely Irish tradition (which it isn't - there are several sources for the modern Halloween festival), and the content of the article identifies "jack o'lantern" specifically with an apocryphal "Oirish" myth, which authoritative sources do not. These need to be looked at, as there's an odd Irish slant to the article with them in. The article could be improved with links to materials on "Hop tu naa" and other Halloween traditions too.

Delete the Poem!

There are no other poems on this page, and it seems pointless if no other poems are included. 64.45.255.67 (talk) 13:43, 7 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Origin of Name

The term Halloween, originally spelled Hallowe’en, is shortened from All Hallow Even – e'en is a shortening of even, which is a shortening of evening. This is ultimately dervied from the Old English Eallra Hālgena ǣfen.[10] It is now known as All Saints' Day.

This is wrong. All Hallows is now called All Saints' Day (hallow means a holy person), but All Hallows Eve is the evening before, called Hallowe'en or, in a religious context, the Feast of All Souls. However Ghosts and demons can be quite cherpy around the house —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.11.29.167 (talk) 09:57, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nuttyskin (talk) 16:55, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Traditions/Superstitions

Should'nt you put in the superstitions about halloween? I'm just curious because i've heard of legends and superstious practices on halloween like the following:

  • Don't Blow out a Jack-o'-Lantern before midnight (Otherwise Evil spirits will have access to your house)
  • Don't walk through a grave yard (Hellhounds lurk near burial grounds especially around this time)
  • Don't Go to a house with no lights on (It may be haunted)
  • Hand out treats (or fear tricks)
  • Dress up (To blend in with the —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.96.44.7 (talk) 12:54, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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