Talk:Knit cap

Etymology

The tuque is decended from the toque, a fashionable sixteenth century women's hat worn in France and generally made of velvet. The French-Canadian Voyageurs borrowed the term and applied it to the somewhat similar knit hats that were a necessity for warmth.

I'm not sure about this. My Oxford Canadian says that tuque and toque are not related: tuque is "Canadian French, ultimately from a pre-Romance form *tukka 'gourd, hill'", whereas toque is "French, apparently = Italian tocca, Spanish toca, of unknown origin," and describes this spelling for the wool hat as being "by assimilation from Canadian French tuque." - Montrealais

It might be worth precising that tuque is CANADIAN French. I was quite surprised at first to read that this word uknown to me is "French". olivier 20:13, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

Spelling

Touque should be considered an alternate spelling rather than being characterized as a misspelling PC -- Vancouver

1. Google toque -wikipedia in English-language pages: 842,000 results (79.4%)
2. Google tuque -wikipedia in English-language pages: 183,000 results (17.2%)
3. Google touque -wikipedia in English-language pages: 36,000 results (3.4%)

About three percent of English-language Google results (that is, sites, not pages) misspell toque "touque". For all we know, there are more sites that spell it tuk, or tocque, or something else. I don't see any reason to put an inline external link to a Google search. Nor do I see any reason to include this original research in the article (what is the average percentage of misspellings of a word on the Internet? Is 3.4% a remarkably high rate of error for an unusual word?). —Michael Z. 2005-12-7 00:18 Z

Those hit counts are pages, not sites

Google sorting by language is highly unreliable; many of those "English" sites are not.

A similar percentage of French page hits for touque, arguably not a misspelling but a variant spelling or an intentional compromise for those who have nothing better to do than to argue whether the first vowel should be an o or a u.

That rough search doesn't determine the percentage of each spelling in which the meaning is the meaning associated with this article. For example, a search in any language for both words toque and chef gives 185,000 hits, and few of them will be the stocking cap meaning—contrarily, few of the hits for tuque will deal with chef's hats (28,200 hits for tuque chef). Throwing out restaurant names including one of these spellings and things like that would also greatly affect the results. Gene Nygaard 14:11, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I think Google normally shows only one or two page results per web site. If "touque" occurred on a thousand pages in a web site, Google would still only show it once or twice.

Anyway, I agree with your assessment; evaluating these results would obviously constitute original research. I was simply pointing out that 1. we have cited no real evidence that touque is objectively a notably common misspelling; 2. it's lame to substitute such a citation with a link to a Google search in the text. At best, this can be stated as a generality. —Michael Z. 2005-12-8 15:12 Z

It shows similar pages once or twice, but all of them are counted in the hit count xxx. If not all of them are shown, when you get to some other number yyy smaller than xxx, you get In order to show you the most relevant results, we have omitted some entries very similar to the yyy already displayed.

If you like, you can repeat the search with the omitted results included. (To do that, you click on the link on the last eight words starting with "repeat".)

It counts all the dissimilar pages on one site, including the ones only linked as "More results from URL".

Yes, it does only count pages with that hit, not the number of times the word is found. Gene Nygaard 17:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Despite what you said about not using Google, I see that you have used your flawed Google search (including "chef" hits, etc.) as the basis for your claim on the article page, which I dispute, that "tuque is usually spelled 'toque'". Gene Nygaard 17:07, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Toque is also used significantly more on English-language .ca sites according to Google, but as you outlined above, we can't make too much of Google results, perhaps nothing at all. And sorry for misunderstand the hit count.

I merely mentioned that as corroborating evidence for the Canadian Oxford Dictionary, which authoritative—it lists toque as the main headword, and tuque as a variant spelling referring back to the main headword. The Canadian Oxford is based on direct research about Canadian usage of English, so barring contradicting sources, we must accept its implication that toque is the primary spelling (p. xiii of the dictionary's usage guide, under "variant spellings": "The main headword represents the most common form in Canadian usage."). —Michael Z. 2005-12-8 21:27 Z

You've seen how hard that is to actually quantify. All we can really say is that "tuque" and "toque" spellings are both used for this word. There isn't necessarily any implication of any great difference; if two equally common spellings were used, a dictionary would still put it under one of them with a cross-reference from the other. It is probably also time-dependent. What is the time frame of the research of those lexicographers, for example?

For what it's worth, Webster's New World Dictionary (1961, additions in later editions are in a separate addenda but this is in the main part) has it under tuque with not even a mention of variant spellings there, but under toque it has as definition 1 c : TUQUE.

You can determine that Canadian Tire uses the toque spelling on its web pages.

You can find about 4 to 5 times as Google hits for "a toque is a hat" as those spelling it "a tuque is a hat", most of them quoting a Molson Canadian ad or doing take-offs from it.

There are also probably regional variations within Canada. A search on .ca sites for the words (not exact phrase) toque Alberta gives 963 hits; tuque Alberta gives 38,200 hits, or 40 times as many for the tuque spelling as for the toque spelling. Gene Nygaard 03:20, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Now you seem to be really reaching. This is an article about a Canadian word. The 2004 edition of the Canadian Oxford is the reference on Canadian English, based on actual research by a team of lexicographers in Canada, and updated since the first 1998 edition. It puts toque in the main headword, and says, I quote, "The main headword represents the most common form in Canadian usage." Your original research using Google and a 44-year-old U.S. dictionary don't carry very much weight.

"All we can really say is that "tuque" and "toque" spellings are both used for this word"—incorrect. We can really say that toque is the "most common form in Canadian usage", based on an up-to-date, unimpeachable reference on the subject. —Michael Z. 2005-12-9 06:02 Z

Just because a spelling is common doesn't make it correct. The hat is properly spelled "tuque"; even if "toque" were a hundred times as common in English as the correct spelling, it would still be objectively incorrect, because a "toque" is a different type of hat, only superficially related to a "tuque" by virtue of their both being hats. Bearcat 00:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

By Bearcat's logic, any "american" spelling of English words that, for instance, uses only an o instead of ou, is objectively incorrect If the term is only used in Canada, and the vast majority of Canadians spell it toque, that's how it's spelled

Merge suggestion with "toque"

My second edition Oxford Canadian has the primary definition at toque, and a reference at tuque. Any objection to moving this article? I doubt there's a better reference. —Michael Z. 2005-12-6 01:37 Z

Keep it at "tuque". Gene Nygaard 13:47, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, I see that toque is a different article. This one should really be merged into that one, since the Canadian English toque is a specific application of the same word. —Michael Z. 2005-12-8 15:15 Z

No, because they are two different hats with different histories. On the page about the French fasion / chef's hat, there should be For the Canadian wool cap see Tuque. And then this page should specify that toque is the normal English spelling but the page is at tuque for disambig reasons. Kevlar67 10:55, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Keep the articles separate, as the chef's hat is ONLY a "toque" and spelling irrespective, a "tuque" is a different thing for a different use entirely. Iamvered 06:20, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I have added content to this article and the one on beanie (which is a hot mess as well, as far as terminology is concerned), and I have removed the merge suggestion. If you want to open the subject back up for debate, put it back on. Iamvered 06:39, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Rather, the entry on "canadian variant" in the article toque should be all but removed, and linked here. It isn't a "variant" on the /tok/ toque, it is an entirely different hat. Since tuque and toque are both accepted spellings of /tuk/ but not of /tok/, it just makes sense to keep the /tuk/ article here. Erk 11:13, 13 November 2006 (GMT+9)

I feel that the other 'toque' page should be renamed (toque-french-hat), and this article should be the toque page. 'tuque', and 'touque' on english wikipedia, should redirect to 'toque' because 'toque' is the more common english usage referring to the knit winter hat. "merging" articles wouldn't be correct because they're two separate hats. 70.79.157.34 (talk) 00:32, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Touque Vs. Beanie

I'm not sure if this is common, but in my neck of the woods, a touque and a beanie are different things. The are both knitted hats, the difference being that a touque folds up at the bottom and a beanie does not. Anyone else encounter this? I'm from Canada. SECProto 20:35, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't know about beanies, but all of the tuques I have fold up at the bottom, unlike what the article currently suggests ("All tuques are tapered and brimless"). Wonderstruck 16:55, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I took out the brimless reference because I have many tuques, called tuques, with folded brims. I suspect the original author meant "without a wide brim" as in unlike a fedora, but since as far as I'm aware (I'm no millner), the fold on a tuque is also called a brim, so it was misleading. We could specify more, but I think the picture makes it clear. Regarding beanies, I have never heard anything but those silly hats with the propellers on top called beanies. A knitted, almost shapeless hat is a tuque whether it folds or not. That's in backwater B.C.... if you are from Ontario it might be different, I hear tuques are called beanies in the US sometimes so perhaps the eastern canadian slang has inherited that a bit? Erk 11:17 13 November 2006 (GMT+9)

To add to this, I'm in southern Ontario near the US border and, while I've always referred to it as a toque, 5 minutes over the border it's referred to as a beanie. In fact, at all the ski resorts within a two hour radius, the majority of people under 30 seem to commonly refer to a toque as a beanie. Urbanriot 00:57, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Also to add to this, as an American living in the state of Washington, I have never heard it referred to as a togue but always as a beanie. Even most of the canadians who come down here refer to it as a beanie. DaftPun 17:50, 14 Febuary 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.71.164.147 (talk)

Also a Washingtonian, have only heard it referred to as a beanie. Never encountered term 'touque' until I stumbled upon this page.LeeRamsey (talk) 03:31, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm quite Canadian and I've never seen it spelled tuque until this very moment. I think that this is a mis-reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 17.202.12.184 (talk) 17:30, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Hate to burst your bubble, but not all Americans call this a beanie - that's a baseball cap with a propeller on top (in 50 years, I've only seen them in cartoons). Stocking cap is most common term - watch cap if you want to have or feign a naval background. Jmdeur (talk) 01:45, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Steve Zissou

Wasn't Bill Murray's tuque in The Life Aquatic... a parody of Jacques Cousteau? I always remember him as wearing one very often. If so, perhaps the article could mention him, just to push the tuque reference as far as it can go. I might be wrong. Bog 05:03, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

A Bobble Hat

It looks to me (from the pics and description) that a touque is what in the UK is called a 'wooly hat' or, if it has a pompom on top, a 'bobble hat'. Mention of these words would clarify what you were describing for UK readers (and any other nationalities who use these terms).

As for a beanie - don't they always fit close to the head where a wooly hat needn't (but may). As for a brim, well I would have thought that was to do with the size of your head vs the size of the hat and was purely optional! It would seem that people are trying to create too much of a rigid definition for what is, after all, a simple knitted hat. Surely it is possible for beanie and touque definitions to overlap, or even for beanie to be a subset of touque?Ewan carmichael 03:54, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

+1 vote for woolly hat and bobble hat from the UK. 86.163.245.106 (talk) 06:24, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I'll tell you what: Walk around on the open prairie when it's a breezy minus 50, then tell me whether the extra wool of the brim is 'optional'. Heavenlyblue (talk) 23:54, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Dubious

The English spelling touque is not mentioned in the Canadian Oxford Dictionary. Let's find a reference for this, or remove it. —Michael Z. 2009-01-26 22:38 z

sure, the Canadian Government referred to this hat as a 'touque' at http://www.cic.gc.ca/ENGLISH/department/media/multimedia/video/waking/waking.asp 70.79.157.34 (talk) 00:39, 5 December 2009 (UTC) Also, you can find several other references to 'touque' at gc.ca

The Oxford Canadian Dictionary is Flat-out Wrong

I went to grade-school in Ontario about 30 years ago, and I was taught to spell the word 'touque'. I have polled all of my friends and family members, and they all learned exactly the same thing. My girlfriend attended grade-school in Alberta roughly 25 years ago. She and her friends and family also learned the form 'touque'.

A Google search means nothing. Many web-published materials have been spell-checked, and this automatically roots out any 'non-official' variants. As well, words that people tend to find difficult - 'touque', for instance - are often looked up in the dictionary. And on most Canadian desks, this means the Oxford Canadian Dictionary. And of course schools, newspapers and businesses also rely on this one source as the last word on spelling. Thus the fact that this form is being drowned in a sea of 'toques' and 'tuques' has no bearing whatsoever on its legitimacy.

Why the OCD has disparaged an extremely common and traditional Canadian usage is beyond me. I strongly suspect sloppiness, regional bias, and/or a persistent leaning toward American usages.

Heavenlyblue (talk) 23:50, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

It's not for Wikipedia to make pronouncements about what spellings the OCD should consider valid; our only job here is to reflect what is listed. If you disagree, contact the OCD to make your case; this isn't the place to raise the issue. Bearcat (talk) 23:00, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Images

I added an image of the famous sherpa-style orange tuque (I'll keep out of the spelling argument and stick with the article title until it changes - I never heard or read any of the variations until today) worn by Jayne Cobb, and reordered the images - is the bright green tuque image necessary ? I moved it to the bottom but it seems a bit superfluous. ☭  мдснєтє тдлк^ЅТЦФФ 12:14, 1 June 2009 (UTC)