Talk:Homeopathy

Strong Bias?

I see that many users have expressed their disagrement with the article point's of view. why only the negative part of the reviews and references are being used?

From the archives of your forum there are users who write correctly that the Shang reviews ( "negative" for Homeopathy ) were *heavily* criticized by a large numbers of researchers, including Linde, Ludtke, Rutten, Frass, Bellavite and others. Linde and Ludtde are extensively quoted for debunking Homeopathy but not when they object to the Lancet that : "Given these limitations, Shang and colleagues' conclusion that their findings “provide support to the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects” is a significant overstatement."..." The conclusion that physicians should tell their patients that “homoeopathy has no benefit” and that “the time has passed for … further investment in research” is not backed at all by the data. "

This is not a neutral approach. Read the britannica entry ( Homeopathy )to see the difference.Greetings. --70.88.10.190 (talk) 01:19, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Don't confuse our WP:NPOV policy for neutrality. While Wikipedia itself has no opinion, articles are required to document all significant opinions found in verifiable and reliable sources (V & RS), and give weight to them according to their "fringeness". The scientific consensus is very clear, so their POV gets more weight. That naturally reveals the existing bias that exists among reliable sources. The latest is rather astounding. See below for the British House of Commons Science and Technology Committee report. -- Brangifer (talk) 02:58, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

This is not honest: If the one sided anti homeopathy bias appearing in these sources requires the complete elimination of the other side which is published in the same sources ( Linde case for instance)of course it should not be adopted at least to justify this elimination. This is not the spirit of WP NPOV.--70.88.10.190 (talk) 09:57, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

If well founded, scientifically based sources that support Homeopathy are available they can be added. The 'bias' in the article is simply a reflection of the studies that have been done and are properly sourced. Bevo74 (talk) 12:59, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Since Linde's meta-analysis (“Linde 1997”) is used as a source in the article I guess you're complaining about not using “Linde 2005”. Whether you like it or not, this is a matter of weight. “Linde 2005” isn't a new study but a comment on the meta-analysis Shang et al. did. Comments aren't subject to peer review, so they're not a reliable source per WP:MEDRS.--Six words (talk) 14:45, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

British House of Commons Science and Technology Committee report

In the United Kingdom, MPs inquired into homeopathy to assess the Government's policy on the issue, including funding of homeopathy under the National Health Service and government policy for licensing homeopathic products. The decision by the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee follows a written explanation from the Government in which it told the select committee that the licensing regime was not formulated on the basis of scientific evidence. "The three elements of the licensing regime (for homeopathic products) probably lie outside the scope of the ... select committee inquiry, because government consideration of scientific evidence was not the basis for their establishment," the Committee said. The inquiry sought written evidence and submissions from concerned parties.

In February 2010 the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee concluded that:

... the NHS should cease funding homeopathy. It also concludes that the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) should not allow homeopathic product labels to make medical claims without evidence of efficacy. As they are not medicines, homeopathic products should no longer be licensed by the MHRA.

The Committee concurred with the Government that the evidence base shows that homeopathy is not efficacious (that is, it does not work beyond the placebo effect) and that explanations for why homeopathy would work are scientifically implausible.

The Committee concluded - given that the existing scientific literature showed no good evidence of efficacy - that further clinical trials of homeopathy could not be justified.

In the Committee’s view, homeopathy is a placebo treatment and the Government should have a policy on prescribing placebos. The Government is reluctant to address the appropriateness and ethics of prescribing placebos to patients, which usually relies on some degree of patient deception. Prescribing of placebos is not consistent with informed patient choice-which the Government claims is very important-as it means patients do not have all the information needed to make choice meaningful.

Beyond ethical issues and the integrity of the doctor-patient relationship, prescribing pure placebos is bad medicine. Their effect is unreliable and unpredictable and cannot form the sole basis of any treatment on the NHS.

The Committee also stated:

"We conclude that placebos should not be routinely prescribed on the NHS. The funding of homeopathic hospitals — hospitals that specialise in the administration of placebos — should not continue, and NHS doctors should not refer patients to homeopaths."

---

That's pretty powerful language from such an authoritative source. It's time for believers in homeopathy to show that they can learn and change their opinions. Otherwise they are true believers. For more, see this section above. -- Brangifer (talk) 02:58, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

---

why the article is not neutral- explanation

The scientific consensus is not very clear. If it were clear other encyclopedias like Britannica would heave adopt it. I read above that NCCAM ( American ) does not share this view as well. They accept that there is some inconclusive evidence for homeopathy and they do refund Homeopathy's research which is important.

This is not about weight. The writers of the article have not included very significant members of the Scientific Community who as active researchers published in major medical journals ( Lancet ) object to this point of view ( debunking homeopathy). You could have included their opinion in the article at least. But you don't even refer to these passages.

So you did not address my concerns and other users concerns about the neutrality of the current approach.You are repeating the one sided view.

Articles from different major reliable sources which have a different point of view on Homeopathy have been completely excluded. As I said these researchers are quoted only when they write negatively about the subject. --70.88.10.190 (talk) 03:37, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Have a look at reference 3 below, Evidence check: Homeopathy, House of Commons Science and Technology Committee, 20 October 2009, parliament.uk. Verbal chat 08:20, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

It seems that the problem with this discussion is that people don't rationally respond to what has been said or argued. There is a "I did hear what you said" thing. It is evident from the archives. I just asked for the second or third time why the previous important sources have been completely eliminated instead of given a limited space and weight and I get not response. --70.88.10.190 (talk) 09:38, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

The scientific consensus is extremely clear. There is no evidence of any effect beyond a (subjective) placebo effect. (There is no evidence of any significant objective effects from the placebo effect.) It's a "pure placebo", so it's unethical to use it on humans outside of a research setting, but it would be the ideal placebo in laboratory research. As a placebo it would only "work" if all subjects receiving it believed it was an active treatment. If they knew it was homeopathic, then some of them, knowing that homeopathy is a placebo, would not be deceived and therefore it wouldn't work as a placebo for them. -- Brangifer (talk) 15:15, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

The scientific consensus is not clear. NACCAM reports under controversies that "However, there are some individual observational studies, randomized placebo-controlled trials, and laboratory research that report positive effects or unique physical and chemical properties of homeopathic remedies." They also state that they refund homeopathy while the Lancet through Shang says that there is no reason for more research since it is all placebo and impossible. Its kind of funny you dont want to accept that this is a controversial issue and that there is not clear consensus. The sources you are using state that not me --69.125.7.24 (talk) 21:21, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I've just noticed that that quotation does not come from the "Controversies" section, but from the section headed "The Status of Homeopathy Research". The "controversies" section says that it is controversial "because a number of its key concepts are not consistent with established laws of science" while its proponents point to anecdotal evidence. Brunton (talk) 12:56, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

That doesn't invalidate the accurate reporting of the scientific consensus. Indeed, it would be unusual if there weren't some individual observational studies, randomized placebo-controlled trials, and laboratory research that had positive outcomes. The fact is, when taken together and properly weighted, homeopathy is found to have no effect above placebo, and is contrary to accepted scientific principles. By the way, have you previously had or currently have an account? Verbal chat (UTC)

What you say is only one interpretation of the reviews on Homeopathy. Other organizations like NACCAM as you see above hold a different view which for some reason has been eliminated. You keep reporting from NACCAM only the part you agree with. The other part about " positive effects or unique physical and chemical properties of homeopathic remedies and the fact that they fund research for Homeopathy is not reported. That;s all.--69.125.7.24 (talk) 21:35, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Please see the NCCAM article. It should be apparent to any independent reader that the organization exists for purely political reasons, not scientific ones.User:LeadSongDog come howl 21:45, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Why don't you object to the use of NACCAM quotes in the article (when these are used to debunk Homeopathy) then?--69.125.7.24 (talk) 21:52, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any other objections. I will add this to the article later.--69.125.7.24 (talk) 21:33, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

You will probably find that your changes will be reverted because it's quite clear that you haven't achieved any consensus for your proposed changes. Can I suggest that you put your proposal here on the talk page for "buy in" from the other editors who frequent this page? That way it can be discussed and consensus achieved. FWIW can I recommend that you get an account? --Shot info (talk) 22:36, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't reply sooner, I've been otherwise occupied. I don't see that the NCCAM cites are used to "debunk" homeopathy, only to show that homeopathic remedies are placebos. If you think placebos don't work, you are simply wrong. Within certain limits they do, and it is well established in the literature. Why some editors here persist in devaluing the placebo effect is mystifying to me. But as a general practice of argumentation it is accepted that when a speaker or writer makes a statement against interest it is more credible than the reverse. That's not specific to wikipedia. If the head of a big pharma company said that Bach flower remedies were effective, that too would carry more credence than if they were touting COX-2 inhibitors. Clear? — Preceding unsigned comment added by LeadSongDog (talk • contribs) 22:45, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

You have to provide a rational response to my question above."Why don't you object to the use of NACCAM quotes in the article (when these are used to debunk Homeopathy)? and why you don't want to include its other statements about homeopathy;s efficacy and research in the article. --69.125.7.24 (talk) 23:03, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

What part of my response above do you consider to be irrational? By my reading I responded directly to your question. Perhaps I'm missing the citation you find problematic: it would help if you would identify it.User:LeadSongDog come howl 04:12, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

[undent] 69.125.7.24 - you say "the scientific consensus is not clear"; however, if you look at the whole of the paragraph from which you took your quotation, you'll find it expressed there, albeit with something of a positive spin: "Most analyses of the research on homeopathy have concluded that there is little evidence to support homeopathy as an effective treatment for any specific condition, and that many of the studies have been flawed." There will always be a few apparently positive results even for a completely ineffective therapy. the fact that there are a few in favour of homoeopathy does not negate the rest of the evidence. Brunton (talk) 17:35, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

I hate to repeat myself, but the scientific consensus is extremely clear. There is no evidence of any effect beyond the subjective placebo effect. You need to read the section above: Talk:Homeopathy#British_House_of_Commons_Science_and_Technology_Committee_report. There the British House of Commons Science and Technology Committee has made it very clear, and has recommended that all support for homeopathy be withdrawn. NCCAM happens to be a political group whose funding is based on them finding positive results for alternative medicine. All they have produced is negative results in almost all studies conducted over ten years at a cost of $2.5 billion! R. Barker Bausell, a research methods expert and author of "Snake Oil Science" states that "it's become politically correct to investigate nonsense."[1] Needless to say, their days are numbered. They just happen to be behind the curve in relation to the Brits. Even our own NPOV policy, in the section about Pseudoscience and related fringe theories, ends with these words:

• "Pseudoscience usually relies mainly on weak evidence, such as anecdotal evidence or weak statistical evidence at just above the level of detection, though it may have a few papers with positive results, for example: parapsychology and homeopathy."

Those words are an added justification for why this article is placed in the Category:Pseudoscience. It fits the qualifications described in group 2 higher up in that section:

• "Generally considered pseudoscience: Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience."

There is no question that homeopathy is "generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community". If it had a proven effect beyond the subjective placebo effect, we wouldn't have this discussion. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:08, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Is this a meaningful and good faith conversation? I m asking a specific question and instead of responding to what has been asked and/or said you keep repeating the same thing. You have to respond to what has been asked and argued and in order to make some progress.--69.125.7.24 (talk) 21:42, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Neutrality - trying again

So lets try again.

The Lancet through Shang says that there is no reason for more research since it is all placebo and impossible and no research is needed.

Nacam website states the following "Most analyses of the research on homeopathy have concluded that there is little evidence to support homeopathy as an effective treatment for any specific condition, and that many of the studies have been flawed."However, there are some individual observational studies, randomized placebo-controlled trials, and laboratory research that report positive effects or unique physical and chemical properties of homeopathic remedies." Nacam supports homeopathy's research they pay for it. Also prominent researchers, who are quoted in this article, say in the Lancet that while homeopathy has not been proved as a therapy "Shang and colleagues's conclusion that their findings “provide support to the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects” is a significant overstatement."..." The conclusion that "physicians should tell their patients that “homoeopathy has no benefit” and that “the time has passed for … further investment in research” is not backed at all by the data. "

These are different views. Clearly.

The view expressed by NACAM and Linde is not in the article. Why? It is a simple question.--69.125.7.24 (talk) 22:11, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

So? Propose the change that you wish to make, otherwise these discussions can be deleted per WP:TALK because they are not improving the article. Shot info (talk) 22:53, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

:Don't delete my comments again. Not kind. --69.125.7.24 (talk) 23:01, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, part of me is starting to think that somebody is just here trying to prove a point :-( Shot info (talk) 03:55, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

It's just classic WP:TE and WP:IDHT. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:38, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

I did a quick Google search for NACAM and couldn’t find an organization relevant to homeopathy or human medicine, so I don’t think they’re important enough for their appraisal of the situation to be relevant to the article. — TheHerbalGerbil^(TALK), 12:45, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Try NCCAM. — Scientizzle 17:29, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Shelton, 2004

I'm really, really surprised Homeopahty: How it really works (Shelton, 2004, Prometheus Books) hasn't been referenced more. It's a book-length discussion of homeopathy, the publisher is solid, and it's book length! it covers most of the types of homeopathy, as well as the arguments for, and skeptical replies about, homeopathy. It's a very good book, if for no other reason than its comprehensiveness. I'm going to try to add more, and highly recommend it being read by anyone with a strong interest. I was mentioned in the archive only once, and only tangentially - and didn't appear on the page before I added it a month or so ago. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 00:34, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion for a neutral approach

I think that NACAM and Linde views cannot be excluded from the article.The objection from one editor that NACAM is a political group is not serious. House of Commons Science and Technology Committee, is also a political organization; NACAM quotes on Homeopathy are used in the article. Linde is also extensively quoted. If you want to be neutral we have to include their entire view not only the negative part. I will make my suggestions below. --69.125.7.24 (talk) 20:48, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Neutral doesn't mean "free of criticism". Linde has, I believe, retracted his conclusions (for both meta-analyses) and the NCCAM is heavily criticized for attempting to "prove" alternative therapies, rather than test them. The article should reflect the conclusions of the best research trials and theoretical commentaries. As evidence accumulates against homeopathy, the article should follow. The evidence is either against homeopathy, or sufficiently flawed that it can't be reported without criticism. The fact of the matter is, homeopathy seems to be winding down it's long life as research, particularly good research, continues to find it is as effective as placebo. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 00:33, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure why 69.125.7.24 thinks that "the NCCAM view" is excluded from the article. The NCCAM page that has been repeatedly quoted says "Most analyses of the research on homeopathy have concluded that there is little evidence to support homeopathy as an effective treatment for any specific condition, and that many of the studies have been flawed. However, there are some individual observational studies, randomized placebo-controlled trials, and laboratory research that report positive effects or unique physical and chemical properties of homeopathic remedies"; the lead of the article currently says "Claims of homeopathy's efficacy beyond the placebo effect are unsupported by the collective weight of scientific and clinical evidence. While some studies have positive results, systematic reviews of all the published trials fail to conclusively demonstrate efficacy." The NCCAM page says that most of the research is negative, but there are some positive results, and so does the article. Brunton (talk) 12:19, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Usefulness to the reader

I am not an editor here, but a reader. Apologies if I am making a mistake and this isn't where I should be writing in. It seems relevant to the quality of the article to me. I am a behavioural scientist, and many of the objections to homeopathy could be applied to psychology - it is near impossible to find proof of anything works other than "client felt better" - there is no measure or proof, yet millions are helped everyday and through numerous disciplines. Yet, that page is willing to look at it in appreciative detail - there is a criticism section, but the reader is able to find a lot of useful information on the subject he came to find out about. If I look around me, I know more mainstream people taking homeopathic remedies than going to a psychologist. Both professions seem to rely largely on the skill of the practitioner to get useful results.

I came to this page to find information on homeopathy, and what I found was opinions, method (in brief) and history. Its not bad in itself, but the problem is that it doesn't actually share what millions find useful about homeopathy - so what is homeopathy in today's world is totally missing. How and where is it applied by those who believe in it? I don't know much about homeopathy either, but the sweeping dismissals don't help me discover any thing other than something that could be summarized as 'bad idea' and linked to the reference list. What in the world makes it so widely followed? There must be some value people find, even if it is something as irrational as "at least I'm not putting chemicals in me". Whatever we call the scientific method, while homeopathy may not have been proven effective, it has been proven harmless. And science has not been able to disprove cures that have been claimed by many people as having alternative causes.

The list of possible reasons why a cure may have seemed to happen is hypothetical, just like the homeopathic cure. There have been no investigations that identified the alternative cause on any scale - this may sound ridiculous, but it is the same as saying that a shrink cannot make me happy, because he has no control over my life and circumstances, when the fact is that it routinely happens, for other reasons not considered/discovered. I find it pseudo-science to present skepticism or the presence of alternative reasons as enough cause for dismissal. It is like saying "It is unscientific to call the earth round, when it is flat" - who knows how proof will pan out either or both ways?

As a reader, I would have appreciated finding information in this article which is similar in nature to the other articles here - what is it all about, what does it claim to cure, how does it claim to work, how widespread is it, arguments in favour, arguments against.... Instead I am struggling to comprehend a lot of debunking of something that hasn't been adequately explained for the debunking to seem plausible. The criticism is very informative and it would have been more useful if I would have understood what exactly is the whole picture of what is being criticized.

Whether it works or not is secondary to what it is. I have found more information on the pro-homeopathy sites describing the method of preparation of remedies, ways in which the remedies claim to work, etc. Surely insertion of appropriate qualifiers and clear non-endorsements like "not explicable through scientific methods" or "claims to treat" or "clients feel (may not actually be) cured for reasons not understood" or "claimed but insufficiently proven" etc can allow the information to be available without endangering wholesale blind faith in gullible readers?

Sorry if I am asking for something that violates the guidelines, but this article is not helpful to me, the reader to grasp homeopathy in a way I can relate with.

Vidyut —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.182.4.38 (talk) 07:21, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Sorry for double post, but cures are not only chemical. If a placebo can cure something in the place of a medicine with questionable side effects, I see it as the more valid cure. If a person gives an infant with a cough a few sugar pills and the cough gets resolved, that's worth more than a clinical trial in the minds of the general population. It may not be scientific, but it is not helpful to totally omit this perspective. I don't believe homeopathy makes any claims to be a 'modern medicine' procedure. So why is there such an overwhelming measure from that perspective and no no perspective on the measures it considers effective?

Opening up to such possibilities might open the doors for very useful and critical information on real dangers of say for example discontinuing insulin (diabetes) or eptoin (epilepsy) to go homeopathic. However, it might be possible to try homeopathy for mild depression for those with an aversion to medicines. It opens space for warnings like most homeopaths claim that 'correct' remedies will start showing some effect within a short duration, so to explore alternatives if they don't find relief from treatment - fake or not, it warns them against delaying treatment if symptoms persist without using lack of understanding as a judgment against. This kind of information has the potential to be neutral as well as directly informative to many people seeking information here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.182.4.38 (talk) 07:53, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

I haven't understood what you think is missing. Half the article deals with the theory and practice of homeopathy and related treatments before getting into questions of science, regulation, and history. --Art Carlson (talk) 12:01, 18 March 2010 (UTC) P.S. I think it is entirely possible that many or even most of the perceived cures due to psychology and psychiatry would have occurred just due to contact with the practitioner (and possibly even without that), regardless of the methods employed. In those fields it is inherently hard or impossible to design placebo-controlled, double-blind studies. In stark contrast, it is trivial to substitute a placebo for a homeopathic remedy to perform a clean study.

A few comments…

1. Psychology isn't so much unproved as it is not quite scientific. Homeopathy isn't just unproved, it's disproved.
2. Placebos are not valid cures. The entire concept of placebo is that the treatment itself has zero effect and the outcome is entirely the result of the patient and/or doctor's expectations. — TheHerbalGerbil^(TALK), 12:24, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Other problems include homeopaths badmouthing drugs and medicine, while offerring their own placebos as cures (and they are placebos - there are no active molecules left in most homeopathic compounds, and no mechanism you would expect to work). Offerring someone a placebo as a treatment is not only highly unethical, it can be dangerous - it delays diagnosis and treatment of real, deadly medical disorders, by real doctors who aren't operating on the basis of ideas cribbed from the bronze age greeks. But overall, there is a lot of opinion but no sources to substantiate any changes. Please note that reliable sources are required to verify text in the main page, and talk pages are not forums to discuss the topic. If there are no suggested changes based on sources, we're pretty much done here. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 13:44, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

NAcam and Linde are major reliable resources ( already in use ) and I don't understand why you dont want to read them. --69.125.7.24 (talk) 21:21, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

I concur with all the concerns expressed above. I wish people who participate in this discussion to try to answer some of these questions.

Brunton says that the article includes the Nacam view. This is false: Nacam funds homeopathy research and they say that and "some laboratory research report positive effects or unique physical and chemical properties of homeopathic remedies." This must also be in the article; it is not included so far.

Linde,who is also extensively quoted, and reports to the lancet that "Shang and colleagues's conclusion that their findings “provide support to the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects” is a significant overstatement."...and that " The conclusion that "physicians should tell their patients that “homoeopathy has no benefit” and that “the time has passed for … further investment in research” is not backed at all by the data. " has to be included.

Otherwise we just cherry pick the negative part of someone's opinion.

Please try to respond to what has been said or asked and try to read the article before you comment. --69.125.7.24 (talk) 20:36, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

The lead of the article already states that on the whole the evidence is negative, but some studies have positive results, which is what your quotation from NCCAM says.

It is a little difficult to see where in the article most of your quotations from Linde and Jonas's 2005 letter to the Lancet could be included, as they are criticisms not of the Shang et al. paper but of the Lancet's accompanying editorial, which is not currently mentioned in the article. If they are to be included, then the editorial's conclusions to which they were a response would also have to be included. The one possible exception is the first quotation, which is at least about the paper mentioned in the article. Given the briefness of the discussion of Shang in the article, though, it might be difficult to include it without giving it undue weight; I'm not sure how much of an "overstatement" the conclusion was, given that it only said that the findings "provide support to the notion" that homoeopathy has no action beyond placebo - if it had said that it proved the notion, then that would certainly be an overstatement, but it didn't say this.

It would be easier for people to "respond to what has been said or asked" if you could reply in the original thread rather than starting a new one each time you post anything, by the way. Brunton (talk) 22:38, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Yeah...we don't need a new section on this. The NCCAM has been criticized for its naive view of homeopathy, and they are a funding agency, not a research body. Further, Linde has disavowed the conclusions of his study supporting homeopathy, and Shelton is explicit that Linde shouldn't be cited to support classical homeopathy because it's a flawed study. The conclusions are explicit and becoming more so - homeopathy has mixed results, no reason why it should be effective, and the better the quality of research, the less evidence there is for it being effective. We should be citing the most reliable reviews, in the most reliable sources, published in high-impact journals. Those continue to point to homeopathy being placebo-only. Please review the FAQ at the top of the page. There is no consensus for drastic changes to homeopathy being effective, and seeking "balance" is actually a way of putting undue weight on the opinions of proponents at the expense of the science. Not a good way to build an encyclopedia - the scientists are skeptics even if the public isn't but this is why we rely on scientists, not the public. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 22:59, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Trivial

- Art Carlson - "In stark contrast, it is trivial to substitute a placebo for a homeopathic remedy to perform a clean study."

I am not so sure. I have conducted some research, though not much, and it can get really difficult, perhaps impossible to standardize something that depends on experience to be effective. Apparently, people with similar symptoms can be prescribed different remedies. It says everywhere, including this page. This diagnosing and prescribing is a skill. I don't see how such a study would be possible unless a homeopath were to be presented with a large number of patients of which he could select those requiring the same remedy or something. I agree with you that many or most perceived cures in psychology and psychiarty could have simply happened through contact with the practitioner - in fact, simply attentive and accepting/non-judgmental listening is considered therapeutic (what Carl rogers calls 'deep listening' in client centered therapy). It may be possible that the deep inquiring happening for homeopathy with acknowledgment of every experience of the client on every level causes a similar effect. - Vidyut —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.182.10.54 (talk) 15:54, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

No, I suppose it's not trivial. I suppose, what you would need is to have a practitioner diagnose and prescribe, and to then substitute a different homeopathic remedy for the control group. The practitioner community would consider that unethical, though. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:24, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

The diagnostic approach has nothing to do with the placebo substitution, which is indeed trivial - at the end of the intervention cycle, the pharmacist or prescriber checks the subject number against the pre-randomized control sheet and gives them either what they were prescribed, or a set of pills that have the same label but no "active ingredient" (or as Arthur Rubin says, a totally separate remedy with the "prescription" on the label). Homeopaths and patients are unable to distinguish between a remedy and a placebo. That homeopaths generally don't agree on which remedy to choose is a separate matter, which presents its own theoretical and clinical set of problems, but they are irrelevant to the substitution of a placebo for a remedy. See Sheldon, 2004 for more on both these points.

The medical community considers homeopathy unethical in general, the homeopathic community may but they would disagree completely on the ultimate remedy anyhow. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 17:06, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Not only is it quite possible to design controlled trials of individualised homoeopathy, but enough had been carried out by 1998 for a systematic review of them to be published. It is already cited in the article: Linde K, Melchart D (1998). "Randomized controlled trials of individualized homeopathy: A state-of-the-art review". J Altern Complement Med 4 (4): 371–388. Most of the trials used methods similar to that suggested by Arthur Rubin, but at least one selected only patients for whom a particular remedy was considered appropriate, as suggested by 59.182.10.54. The review found that there was an effect when all trials were considered, but no significant effect when only the best quality trials were considered - entirely consistent with the results of trials of non-individualised homoeopathy. Brunton (talk) 17:34, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

So you say that the readers should know about the conclusions of the UK House of Commons Science and Technology Committee in 2009-2010 that homeopathy does not work better than placebo but they should not know that Nacam ( a major organization in the US ) funds homeopathy research and that the researchers ( Linde and ) you quote all the time in the article state in the Lancet that "Shang and colleagues's conclusion that their findings “provide support to the notion that the clinical effects of homeopathy are placebo effects” is a significant overstatement." Isn't that misinformation and strong bias??--69.125.7.24 (talk) 21:54, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Listen to somebody neutral who'd have to pay for it along with proven healthcare, or listen to somebody who has already pumped money into it. I'd call it not giving undue weight. Bevo74 (talk) 08:04, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Linde et al is both old, and criticized by Linde et al themselves for being flawed an inaccurate. The NCCAM has been criticized for being a mouthpiece for its creator, senator Tom Harkin, who has himself criticized the NCCAM for 'failing to prove that complimentary and alternative medicine actually work'. Science tests, to mandate that it must "prove" something is an interference of politics into the search for truth. See for example, the criticisms section of that very page, or if you're interested in more reliable sources, the article quoted in the page from Science (though you may have to request a reprint from the author or go to a library). For that matter, the NCCAM is primarily a funding body, though they do claim to disseminate authoritative information (though lacking the pedigree and history of the other centers). Further, the NCCAM's own statement on homeopathy has a very interesting Key Points section, which has a second bullet stating "Most analyses have concluded that there is little evidence to support homeopathy as an effective treatment for any specific condition; although, some studies have reported positive findings. " And as a final point - the NCCAM is funding basic research into efficacy which means it's still uncertain whether it even works. It's not like it's comparing different types of chemotherapy for evidence of incremental improvement, or two different heart medications. Funding research something doesn't mean it's true, effective or even worth looking at. They're funding TACT as well, and in the past they have funded much research into many ideas that proved to be worthless. Homeopathy is only different because it has a substantial and vocal support base of already-convinced advocates who refuse to accept that there is no good research base supporting homeopathy's effectiveness, and at least one of them is a senator with enough power to force it down the research community's throat. The NCCAM giving a tepid "research base is equivocal" statement is worth far less text than the UK HCSTC conducting a thorough investigation in which they come to a conclusion that clearly states there is no real evidence supporting the believe that homeopathy is nothing but a placebo. While the NCCAM is mostly about giving money away, the HCSTC was mostly designed to reach an evidence-based conclusion. And they did. So I think the weight given is appropriate. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 15:37, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

I realize that this is discussing the topic rather than the article, but to Hell with it, this needs to be said, and you need to sit down and listen: It IS trivial to do a double-blind study for homeopathy, despite the excuse that homeopaths “treat the patient, not the disease”. Here’s how it would be done: Randomly split the participants into a treatment group and a control group. Have both the treatment group and the control group consult with (a) homeopath(s). The homeopath(s) may prescribe whatever remedy or combination of remedies they believe are appropriate for each individual patient. But then depending on whether the patient is in the treatment group or the control group, a technician selects whether that patient receives his/her individualized treatment or a placebo. It’s as simple as that! It’s only the tiniest bit different from a typical DBRCT!! — TheHerbalGerbil^(TALK), 11:47, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

As I've already noted above, a systematic review of trials of this type (or similar) is already referenced by the article, in the "Meta-analyses" section: "There have, however, been a number of clinical trials that have tested individualized homeopathy. A 1998 review[122] found 32 trials that met their inclusion criteria, 19 of which were placebo-controlled and provided enough data for meta-analysis. These 19 studies showed a pooled odds ratio of 1.17 to 2.23 in favor of individualized homeopathy over the placebo, but no difference was seen when the analysis was restricted to the methodologically best trials. The authors concluded "that the results of the available randomized trials suggest that individualized homeopathy has an effect over placebo. The evidence, however, is not convincing because of methodological shortcomings and inconsistencies." In addition, this criticism assumes without evidence that classical homeopathy works better than other variations of homeopathy.[123]" Reference 122 is the review I've linked to above. Brunton (talk) 21:01, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

NACAM is a reliable source?

Question for all: if NACAM is a non reliable source ( for whatever reason) why dont you object to the use of its quotes in the Homeopathy article? Please respond and don't change the topic all the time. --69.125.7.24 (talk) 21:45, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

The limited quotes used in the meta-analyses section conforms with the mainstream point of view, thus giving due weight to the appropriate level of scientific support. However, they could easily be removed, and the ideas replaced with virtually any mainstream source. And frankly, it doesn't really belong in that section. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 23:00, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

FAQ

It occurs to me that the questions asked about homeopathy could probably be answered simply pointing to the questions in the FAQ rather than wasting time typing out replies. It's not like the Linde studies are new or anything... WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 23:09, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Questions about homeopathy should be answered in the article. The talk space is for discussion of the article text, not the topic. No need to waste time typing out an answer - just delete the question. If you really feel compelled to answer, take the discussion to User:Talk space. — TheHerbalGerbil^(TALK), 11:49, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

In other words, WP:NOT#FORUM. User:LeadSongDog come howl 13:12, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

DMOZ

What's wrong with it.

The only discussion on it, as far as I can tell, is at Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 38#External links - Associations and regulatory bodies — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:24, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

No matter what, an unbalanced DMOZ doesn't mean we should fill the EL section with a lot of links instead. We should choose a small number of extremely appropriate links. Visiting the actual DMOZ page, it does look like a couple hundred cheerleading links, and the only "anti-" section I could find is here, with only five links. Perhaps instead we include homeowatch, maybe the NCCAM link as well as it is supposed to be evidence-based (though reading through it, it looks more like a cheerleader as well - despite token acknowledgement of the utter lack of research base it still discusses it seriously). For NPOV, there should be a reasonable "pro-" site though given its antiscientific slant that could be difficult. Perhaps Ben Goldacre? WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 11:10, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

That particular DMOZ link goes to a one-sided collection of sites promoting homeopathy. It shows no semblance of balance on the part of that DMOZ editor. I'd be fine with having no ELs at all in place of the WP:LINKFARM, but in this case DMOZ simply fails to serve its purpose. User:LeadSongDog come howl 13:18, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I'll jump on board that bandwagon. I think we would be well-served to have some ELs, but I think we need to be much more judicious about it than the DMOZ appears to have been - they are universally positive in that particular link from what I can tell. I've replaced with homeowatch and the critical DMOZ page, but in the interest of NPOV we really should have something that is more "pro". That's a very tough call since the only people who really support it are the ones who make money off of it. For the love of Jebus, the WHO is against it!

Perhaps we could link to Ecch (pronounced like it sounds, and very appropriately so)? WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 13:34, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Undue weight, accuracy and neutrality

There is a misunderstanding of Undue weight in this page: The importance of the reliable sources define the weight of a given view. "How much weight is appropriate should reflect the weight that is given in current reliable sources. and also "Neutrality requires that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each."It also says that the mainstream view should be empahszied. It does not say that the minority view should be excluded or eliminated. Taking from reliable sources only the quotes which express the sceptical view and eliminating or excluding the other views which are presented in the same reliable sources like the Lancet ( LInde letter) NCCAM website info ( a major organization in the US which funds homeopathy reasearch) lead to a heavily biased article. According to wikipedia this his not neutral writing. Please reconsider.--69.125.7.24 (talk) 21:43, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

NCCAM. It's not NACAM. If you're going to perserverate over this issue, at least start getting your argument precise if not accurate... — Scientizzle 21:52, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

References

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