Talk:Chamar

Confusion over Ramdasia and Ramdasi

Ramdasia and Ramdasi are not same. Ramdasi are Ravidasi and can be used interchangeably. Due to similar sounding words ambiguity often occurs. A famous case on this ambiguity arose few years back that had to be handled by Court which clarified the issue. Here is a News cutting from Tribune Newspapper :-

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2001/20010220/main4.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.245.223.34 (talk) 16:08, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

This is very interesting. Are there any other sources for this?

Bal537 (talk)bal537 —Preceding undated comment added 19:19, 24 May 2010 (UTC).

Ramdasi is a surname used by Ravidasis who are non Sikhs and there is no such thing as 'Ramdasi Sikh' but Ramdasia Sikh.If you search for 'Ramdasi' you will find loads of names and profiles of people with surname Ramdasi and all of them non Sikhs. Both Ramdasi(chamars) and Ramdasia(Jualahas) both come under schedule caste list and is added under same section because of confusion of 'a' and without 'a'.

Indian Govt Link : http://india.gov.in/howdo/service_detail.php?formid=19

Jatt people are fighting case against Ramdasia as they say they have been added to the schedule caste list fraudulently using Ramdasi and Ramdasia consufion.

Chamars known as Jat

I undid deletions by Information-Line. He has not provided any reason for his deletions.

The line he is deleting comes from this source:

Briggs, Geo(1920). The Religious Life of India - The Chamars, Page 20, ISBN-10: 1406757624

http://books.google.com/books?id=PTgsR0xjG4MC&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=Baluch+Mochis+and+Chamars&source=bl&ots=2YCBAq3PVs&sig=3t2gF90vAhuU0DFPAlMZ0B7YQ2o&hl=en&ei=ZoS1SqLgIMaf8AbS1bGTDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#v=onepage&q=Baluch%20Mochis%20and%20Chamars&f=false

Bal537 (talk) 01:30, 20 September 2009 (UTC)bal537

Jat is a Sindhi word which means camel rider or horse rider. There is nothing special about it.---By user Odinel

Sorry but why does it have to be given in the opening paragraph? it is to misguide readers obviously,if you wish to place it somewhere put it somewhere more relevant to the topic in hand Information-Line 11:59, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Miscellaneous Comments

I undid Fabonian's comments dated 6-9-2009 as his comments seemed to be objectionable and could result in dragging of Wikepedia in court case. Following para is inserted in the para on background and origin. The contents of this para seems to reveal the real facts and any attempt to delete the same would tantamount to unauthorised deletion of the real facts. The revised para reads as follows;

[edit] Background and origin

Chamar were basically engaged in manufacturing, processing and trading in leather and leather goods. Apart that farming is also their most important occupational stay either in their full ownership or on share cropping basis in which they used to get 1/3rd or 1/4th part of the farm produce. They do not belong to any one particular group, clan or area, but are those people from various castes and tribes who joined Chamar community from time to time for various reasons and purposes such as employment, political, and spiritual etc. The spiritual enlightenment of Saint Guru Ravidass attaracted many people toward Ravidassia Sect. Saint Ravidass was one of those few saints who were directly linked to God witout being stuck to false and hoaxful rites. It was due to such top graded spiritual enlightenment of Saint Ravidass that many people became his disciple. Tanning being profession of Chamars in past, they could be both from the original tribes who were living in India even before the Aryan Invasion and they were also Aryans who came from the Central Asia. Historians believe they are true Hindus. India being shut out from the rest of the world by the mountains and the sea, there grew up a division of labor which gradually crystallized into the caste system, elaborate schemes of religious philosophy were built up by the sages; the trades were fenced round with religious sanctions, so that for a man to follow his fathers calling was made sacred duty, a thing to which he was born, and which, as his fate, he must perforce accept.--Nivilot —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nivlilot (talk • contribs) 07:16, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

**Please do not use the word "Low" caste. Use the word Dalit or Scheduled castes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.182.80.222 (talk) 16:50, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Is this page reserved for chamars from Punjab only?

To the person who stated that Chandragupta Maurya was of the Chamar caste, please could you specify a reference to prove this statement true. Thank you.

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I saw this in a book. I will try to locate that book.

Wrapping the situation of Chamars and other dalits in euphemisms makes this article difficult to understand outside India. Of course no Indian needs to be told that dalit is more or less the same as untouchable, but this same understanding does not necessarily hold throughout the English-speaking world. LADave (talk) 22:13, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Bal537's edits

1. User Bal537 is a vandal.
2. Ramdasia [Weavers(english), Julaha(hindi)] are not Ravidasia[Cobblers(english), Chamars(Hindi)]. Stop spreading FALSE information.
3. You have been warned on several occasions before.
4. You created FALSE page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamar_ramdasia to spread FALSE information.
5. You have used spoofed I.P addresses (12.182.80.222's,72.79.80.198) , on several occasions to indulge in vandalism on Ramdasia section.
6. You are posting this same FALSE information on Ravidasia [Cobblers(english),Chamars(Hindi)] section too.

Singh online121 (talk) 07:43, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I have provided plenty of proofs. Just to a google search on "Ramdasia Chamar" and you will find countless links showing that Ramdasia's are Chamar. Bal537 (talk) 20:00, 6 August 2009 (UTC)bal537

User 12.182.80.222's edit

User 12.182.80.222 is a vandal.

He is posting bogus information on various sections including Ramdasia.

Some of the various False Facts posted on Chamar Section:-

a) Baluch Mochis and Chamars are also classed as Jat meaning camel rider.

Jat is a separate caste and has nothing to do with Chamars or Ravidasia. Chamars are impersonating themself as Jats (Farmer), Mehra (Khatris), Chopras (Khatris).

Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jat_people ( Clear mention of Jat) Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khatri (Clear mention of Khatri Clan which includes Mehra) Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chopra (Punjabi Khatri)

I would request Chamars to stop impersonating other castes and avoid posting BOGUS information.

If other castes are not updating information on wikipedia, it gives no right to any vandal to distort facts and create bogus information to misguide others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Singh online121 (talk • contribs) 21:46, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

IT IS WRONG TO ASSUME THAT CHAMARS IMPERSONATE OTHER CASTES AND USE THEIR GOTRAS. CHAMARS GOTRAS ARE THERE SINCE ANCIENT TIMES AND IT IS NOT ANYTHING NEW COPIED FROM OTHER CASTES.GOTRA IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR CHAMARS AS IT IS THE BASIS FOR SOLEMNISING MARRIAGES. CHAMARS, ESPECIALLY IN HARYANA, WESTERN U.P ETC. AVOID GOTRAS OF SELF, THE MOTHER, AND THE GRAND MOTHER AND CAN NOT MARRY IN THESE THREE GOTRAS ON WHATSOEVER BE THE GROUND OR COMPULSION. IF OTHER CASTES WANT CHAMARS TO FORGET THEIR GOTRAS, IT WOULD BE A GREAT SIN AS BY DOING SO THEY WILL NOT KNOW WHTHER THEY ARE MARRYING IN THEIR GOTRA OR OTHERS. FOR CHAMARS GOTI NAATI BHAI BHAI,' AND BAAKI SAB COULD BE ASHNAI.' SOME CHAMARS SEEMS TO BE USING IMPROVED BUT SIMILIAR SYNNONYMOUS GOTRA NAMES SUCH AS MEHRA IN PLACE OF MEHARIA OR MEHARDIA WHICH ALSO CONVEY THE SAME MEANING. AS SUCH THERE IS NO DEVIATION AND THIS COULD BE LITTLE BIT CHANGE FROM ORIGINAL LOCAL DILECT WORDS TO IMPROVED HINDI OR SOME OTHER LANGUAGE. THIS IS A KIND OF SHIFT FROM LOCAL LANGUAGE E.G FROM HARYANAVI OR RAJASTHANI TO POPULAR HINDI OR PUNJABI NAMES. BUT ONLY VERY FEW PEOPLE HAVE IMPROVED THAT MANNER WHILE MOST OF OTHERS USE THEIR ORIGINAL GOTRA NAMES ONLY. BUT AT THE TIME OF COMPARING GOTRAS FOR MARRIAGE PURPOSE THEY TAKE UTMOST CARE AND INSIST FOR ORIGINAL GOTRA NAMES IF THERE IS A CONFUSION.------comments by Odinel

I have provided plenty of proofs. Just to a google search on "Ramdasia Chamar" and you will find countless links showing that Ramdasia's are Chamar. Bal537 (talk) 20:00, 6 August 2009 (UTC)bal537

Bal537's edit

This user is vandalising wikipedia by posting false information.

I have provided plenty of proofs. Just to a google search on "Ramdasia Chamar" and you will find countless links showing that Ramdasia's are Chamar. Bal537 (talk) 19:59, 6 August 2009 (UTC)bal537

July 25,2009

User Bal537 alias 12.182.80.222 is posting false information and indulging in vandalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ravinder121 (talk • contribs) 19:48, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Reservation topic

To state that chamar have taken advantage of reservation is a bit offensive(like chamar's have over exploited it).this is a not a fact and shouldbe changed.Many others such as Marasi's,Nai etc have used reservation too so pls change these lines.

Yes Maurya is one more name of Madiga or Chamar. It is well known fact Chamar collected animal skins. They also collected Peacock feathers and feathers of other birds. A group of chamar who collect this peacock feathers are known as Maurya ( those who collect peacock feather). Hence Chandra Guptha belonged to this group. Chanakya who was against Kshtriya found these group strong enough to fight kshtriya. Simillar thing was done by Shivaji maharaj. He used local dalit to build Maharashtra. It is said that one of the main reason Ashok Maurya was not accepted as Emperor by Kalinga was Kalinga Kshtriya could not tolerate Dalit being their emporer. There still set of Maurya people in north. This caste conflict is one main reason for Chandra Gupta Maurya to convert to Jain and Ashok Maurya to convert to Buddhism

Every body who lives in the world who take breath, have skin,blood,and mass (meat) is chamar. Because cha for chamdi (Skin),Ma for mass Meat and ra for rakt (Blood). Actually the every person is chamar who worked or doing buisiness of leather (Chamda).But in India every body who says themselves brahmin, vaish jain etc. hate the chamar but they don't hate chamda's (leather) buisiness they make Chamda (leather) goods.

VALMIKI

Oi lembher is not a chamar, he is 100% Valmiki! YOU NEED TO GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT!!!!!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.8.139.100 (talk) 00:57, 23 December 2006 (UTC). GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT KAILSH KHER IS A BRAHMIN AND HANS RAJ HANS IS A VALMIKI !!!

Maharshi Valmiki is not chamar. wheteher he was a brahaman or a valmiki, it is a matter of debate. But for sure he was not chamar.

'IF HANS RAJ IS VALMIKI WHY IS HE SINGING A SONG ON YOUTUBE CALLED TO PATTAR ANARA DEY, JIN SANU MILNA HOVE, VERE AJJA CHAMMARAN DE! EXPLAIN! the link is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0pzHoru_Mo&feature=related'

Part of original text Chamars are mainly labourers and peasants, some of them are traditionally engaged in professions such as Leatherworking. However, many Chamars living in rural areas have branched out into other occupations such as Weaving. Because of their Dalit status, which was considered to be the lowest in the Indian Caste System, over the centuries, the Chamars have been subjected to discrimination, as a result of which many of them remain poor and backward to this day. Many Chamar families share the same names as families from other castes, this is because they had belonged to those other castes in the past but had fallen down the hierarchy due to poverty or exclusion from the family.

Most of the Chamars in states like Haryana have given up their traditional leather working profession and have now changed their profession to small business, govt. service, medical and engineering services, defence services, and excellence in all walks of life. It is one of the most hard working, honest and progressive caste group.

One example of discrimination against Chamars is cited in an Amar Chitra Katha book concerning Ishwar Chandra Vidyasagar. According to this source, Vidyasagar and several assistants of his, offered food and provisions to victims of a famine in Bengal. Vidyasagar asked his assistants to distribute oil to Chamar victims with parched skin. However, he noticed that one assistant did his bidding only from a distance. When asked why he could not move closer to the Chamars, the assistant replied, "How can I touch a Chamar?" (Vidyasagar then touched one Chamar and said, "What makes you think you can't?")

Today in India, Chamars are politically organised for their status in the society and these changes really helped them to improve their status. Uttar Pradesh, Maharashtra and other states of India are examples where this caste is very much more conscious.

CHAMARS IN states like HARYANA, U.P, Rajasthan etc.

Chamars have diffrent gotras at diffrent places. Almost all gotras of chamars in states like Haryana are same to those of Rajputs, Gujjars etc.

Chamars seems to belong to original Kshatriya class which was reduced to lowest status with ill impact of Kaliyuga. As per one theory Chamars belong to the same race as that of Telgu Brahmanas/kshatriyas who established very good empires in ancient India. The leather and weaving busines, however, seems to have attracted a number of people in pursuit of a livelihood.

CHAMARS are spiritually better than most of others. Saint Ravidass (one of famous chamar guru) proved relative superiority of a noble hearted Chamar to that of a Brahmin. The teachings of Saint Ravidass attracted many Rajput Kings, Jats and others who become disciple of His Holiness. Famous Meera Bai is also stated to be the disciple of Chamar Saint Guru Ravidass.

LEATHER BUSINESS AND CHAMARS

The lucrative leather business attracted many people toward it. This probably made the leather industry one of the most important industry alongside cotton textile industry. Chamars were very good experts in making beutiful designs of shoes and cotton cloth. They were known as julaha, chamar-julaha, raigar, jatia etc. etc. Chamars are very good at farming as well as weaving, shoemaking etc. etc. Chamars are one of the most intelligent castes in India but they are not given due importance becouse of their poverty and low social status. Chamars rarely kill any living animal despite being engaged in skinning of dead animals. Chamars can never resort to begging due to which they find it very difficult to demand even their own legitimate wages for their labour in most of the cases. Chamar has never been understood by anyone due to which this talented caste has always been neglected and subjected to a number of prejudices and discriminations. But this only in India, but in countries like France A person like LUIS PASTEUR, who's father was also engaged in leather dyeing job, could become a good researcher.

Of the four varnas, (Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra), the Chamars belong to the last category - the Shudras.

They are not Vaishya as stated in the article at present.

CHAMAR IS NOT A CASTE

chamar is not a caste, its totally related to profession. like farmer is not a caste but a profession there are many kshatriya,brahmin,baniyia doing farming. they are not of same caste and called as farmer caste . so same as this case they are called as different name as jatav,and ravidassia etc. so we people have to stop mentioning calling chamar as caste. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.178.69.198 (talk) 10:05, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. Farming is not very relevant to someone's ritual status within Hinduism, but leatherworking is very relevant. This is because its practitioners dispose of dead animals by removing and processing the skin and may even consume the flesh. These practices make them ritually polluting in the eyes of orthodox Hindus.

Of course anyone is free to complain that this is a silly prejudice, but the fact remains that it is thoroughly institutionalised. LADave (talk) 22:24, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Mr LADave perhaps doesnot know that very few chamars used to do the kind of job mentioned by him. More than 99 percent chamars are doing no leather related job atleast since past 50 years i.e a half known century. Almost all Chamars' children donot know anything about leather etc. Many other lower as well as upper caste are doing boot polishing and repairing jobs in big cities and many of them are not at all from the traditional stock of chamars. No chamar dispose of dead animals today for your kind information.Therefore it is unwise to make fictious stories based upon some past halucinations from the black past......Neobie

• —Preceding unsigned comment added by Neobie (talk • contribs) 14:32, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

MANY MYTHS AND FALSE PRESUMPTIONS HAVE BEEN CREATED AGAINST CHAMARS SINCE MANY PAST CENTURIES. MANY PEOPLE USE THE WORD CHAMAR AS AN ABUSE BECOUSE EACH CHILD IN INDIA HAVE BEEN TOUGHT BY PARENTS OR OTHERS THAT CHAMAR IS THE SINISTER AND UGLISET GROUP OF PEOPLE. tHIS IS FAR FROM REALITY BECOUSE CHAMAR IS NOT AT ALL SINISTER AS HE DOESNOT COMMIT ANY SIN THROUGH OUT HIS LIFE. A TRUE CHAMAR DOES NOT KILL ANY LIVING ANIMAL, DONOT BEG, DONBOT STEAL, DONOT CHEAT AND POSSESS ALL ATTRIBUTES OF A NOBLE HUMAN BEING. tHE PROCESSING OF LEATHER WAS CONSIDERED BAD BECOUSE THE POOR CHAMAR COULD NOT MAKE USE OF COSTLY MACHINES AND CHEMICALS AND HAD TO DO EVERYTHING BY THEMSELVES. EVERYBODY NEEDED LEATHER GOOS AS IT WAS PROBABLY THE BEST OR SECOND BEST ITEM FOR USE BY HUMANS IN THE UNSCIENTIFIC ERAS. IT IS REALLY SHOCKING THAT CHAMARS ARE/WERE ERRONEOUSLY BEING CONSIDERED MUCH POLLUTED PEOPLE DESPITE THE CONTRARY FACT THAT THEY ARE ONE OF THE HIGHELLY SPIRITUAL AND PURE HEARTED AND MORALLY GOOD PEOPLE.PEOPLE HAVE TO COME OUT OF THE FALSE PRESUMPTIONS AND BELIEFS AND STOP FEEDING THE MINDS OF THE CHILDREN WITH RACIST COCEPTS AND THOUGHTS. ...............Neobie —Preceding unsigned comment added by Neobie (talk • contribs) 15:08, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

B.R. Ambedkar...

...as far as I know, was not a Chamar. Didn't he belong to another community/caste called the Mahars? --Kuaichik (talk) 02:24, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm taking the liberty of removing that claim. It has no reliable sources and was inserted by someone who seems to have done this deliberately. Or am I assuming bad faith due to the edits I've been trying to deal with lately?! Geez, I hope not! --Kuaichik (talk) 02:41, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes Dr B R Ambedkar belonged to Mahar caste of Maharastra . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.196.224.73 (talk) 18:19, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Bal537's edit

User Bal537: Stop posting false information —Preceding unsigned comment added by Singh online121 (talk • contribs) 13:25, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I have provided plenty of proofs. Just to a google search on "Ramdasia Chamar" and you will find countless links showing that Ramdasia's are Chamar. Bal537 (talk) 19:59, 6 August 2009 (UTC)bal537

Bal537's edit

User Bal537 is indulging in vandalism and posting bogus information to misguide others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ravinder121 (talk • contribs) 17:55, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I have provided plenty of proofs. Just to a google search on "Ramdasia Chamar" and you will find countless links showing that Ramdasia's are Chamar. Bal537 (talk) 19:58, 6 August 2009 (UTC)bal537

Ramdasia are Chamars - message to Ravinder121

A simple google search of "Ramdasia Chamar" will show countless links that Ramdasia are Chamars who have taken to weaving. http://www.google.com/search?q=ramdasia+chamar —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bal537 (talk • contribs) 12:36, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

If you feel that this is not true, discuss here. Provide proofs, links, verifiable links. Otherwise, I will keep on reverting the edits and report you (Ravinder121) as doing vandalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bal537 (talk • contribs) 12:34, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Please Give Your PROOF

PLEASE both Ravinder121 and Bal537 give your proof of your reasoning of why you think you are right.

Bal537: (Please explain here (Added new section showing verifiable links that Ramdasia are Chamars Bal537 (talk) 13:09, 10 August 2009 (UTC)bal537)

Ravinder121: (Please explain here)

We don't want to block anyone, but if we have to, we will. Please confront each other one each others talk page. I mean actually talk to each other, you have to try to understand understand both of your reasons.

Good luck, Cubs197 (talk) 20:44, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

No proof of anything is needed at all. en.Wikipedia is about verfiability, not proof. Gwen Gale (talk) 03:16, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Ramdasia are Chamars - Links and sources provided by BAL537

Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province by H.A Rose, IBBETSON, Maclagan (http://www.archive.org/stream/glossaryoftribes03rose#page/n5/mode/2up)

On page page 148 of the book (Page 311 of online book), the author writes "Just as the Muhammadan Chamar is styled Mochi so that Sikh Chamar is called Ramdasia"

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Panjab castes by Sir Denzil Ibbetson (http://www.archive.org/stream/panjabcastes00ibbe#page/n7/mode/2up)

On Page 269, the author writes: "Similarly, if the Ramdasias do not follow the occupation of Chamars, it is no reason to separate them from that castes. So if a Ramdasia is Julaha, that is a weaver, and if he is 'Bazzaz' that is a draper, his caste remains unchanged. If a Chamar, a leather-worker becomes a Sikh and receives 'pahul' to-day, he at once joins the Ramdasias. The Ramdasias do receive the daughters in marriage of ordinary Chamars, but give them 'pahul' before associating with them"........."The the Ramdasi is still a Chamar".

On page 300, the author writes: "The Sikh Chamar or Ramdasia. — It will be seen from Table VIII A that in the north and centre of the Eastern Plains a very considerable number of Chamiirs have embraced the Sikh religion. These men are called Ramdasia after Gui-u Ram Das, though what connection they have with him I have been unable to discover. Perhaps he was the first Guru to admit Chamars to the religion. Many, perhaps most of the Ramdasia Chamars have abandoned leather-work for the loom ; they do not eat carrion, and they occupy a much higher position than the Hindu Chamars, though they are not admitted to religious equality by the other Sikhs. The Ramdasia are often confused with the Raidiisi oi Rabdasi Chamars. The former are true Sikhs, and take the pdhul. The latter are Hindus, or if Sikhs, only Nanakpanthi Sikhs and do not take the pcikul ; and are followers of Bhagat Rav Das or Rab Das, himself a Chamar. They are apparently as true Hindus as any Chamars can be, and are wrongly called Sikhs by confusion with the Ranidasias".

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The Religious Life of India - The Chamars by G.W Briggs ISBN: 8175361840 (http://books.google.com/books?id=PTgsR0xjG4MC&dq=The+Religious+Life+of+India+-+The+Chamars&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=2YBHFq1QVx&sig=xxt0ynAhjQrOkuASylmaGWYNqx0&hl=en&ei=HxWASquUHpWMtgfq17T3AQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2#v=onepage&q=ramdasi&f=false)

On page page 28, the author writes: "the various subcastes of chamars originated due to different occupations. Quote: "The Chandar does not tanning and is the highest of the subcastes"....."The Ramdasi is a weaver"..."The Bonas are weavers of blankets who are Sikhs".

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According to the Constitution of Indian (1950 Amendment,)the Official Census of India (Source: THE CONSTITUTION (SCHEDULED CASTES) ORDER, 1950](C.O.19) (http://lawmin.nic.in/ld/subord/rule3a.htm) (Source:List of notified Scheduled Castes: http://www.censusindia.gov.in/Tables_Published/SCST/SC%20Lists.pdf In the state of Punjab, the Chamar is known as Adharmi, Chamar, Jatia Chamar, Rehgar, Raigar, Ramdasia, Ravidasi

In the state of Jammmu and Kashmir, the Chamar is known as Chamar or Ramdasia

Many other states also list the Chamar & Ramdasia as the same (See links)

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According to the Official Delhi Government website; the following are the Chamar Castes of Delhi (Source:LIST OF SC/ST UNDER GOVT. OF NCT OF DELHI) http://dcnorth.delhigovt.nic.in/SC%20List.pdf

In Delhi, the chamar is known as CHAMAR, CHANWAR, CHAMAR, JATYA OR JATAV,CHAMAR MOCHI, RAMDASIA, RAVIDASI, RAIDASI,REHGARH OR RAIGAR

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Dalits and the Emancipatory Sikh Religion by Raj Kumar Hans from History department of MS University of Baroda (Based on a Draft Paper presented at University of Pennsylvania at the Conference on Dalit Challenges to Academic Knowledge: The Great Paradoxes) http://punjabpanorama.blogspot.com/2009/06/dalits-and-emancipatory-sikh-religion.html

The author writes that "Another dalit Naxalite poet Lal Singh Dil was born in a Ramdasia Sikh (Chamar) family in 1943."

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Academy of the Punjab in North America on the poet Lal Singh Dilhttp://apnaorg.com/articles/nirpuma-4/

Born to a low-caste Ramdasia Chamar (tanner) family, Dil was the first of his clan to pass Class X, while doing his daily labour, and go to college.

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The well known newspaper columnist, Harish K Puri, writes in his research paper Scheduled Castes in Sikh Community A Historical Perspective http://www.sikhspectrum.com/112007/scheduled.pdf

In the customary scheme, outcastes such as mazhabis (Churah Sikh), balmikis and ramdasias (chamar Sikh)/ravidasias were not allowed to own land.

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Perspectives on Sikh Studies by Jagjit Singh (1985, published by Guru Nanak Foundation, Near J.N.U and Qutab Hotal New Delhi 110 067) http://www.globalsikhstudies.net/pdf/per-sikh-studies.pdf

on Page 75 the author writes that "The Ramdasia's or the Sikh Chamars occupt a much higher position than the Hindu Chamars".

On page 77 the author writes that "By changing their name to Ramdasias, the Chamar Sikhs could alter positon in the Sikh case hierarchy, becoming Sikhs and refusing to marry or interdine with Chamar Hindus.

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Punjab Government Website, Listing steps for getting a scheduled caste certificate.

In this website, the have listed: "Chamar, Jatia Chamar,Rehgar, Raigar,Ramdasi of Ravidasi, Ramdasia, Ramdasia Sikh, Ravidasia, Ravidasia Sikh" under the same bullet point indicating that all members belong to these castes are the same. http://india.gov.in/howdo/service_detail.php?formid=19

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The website http://www.sikhlink.com/Glossary.htm lists the following: "Ramdasia- The Sikh section of the Chamar caste, an outcaste Sikh"

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In the website http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=44491&st=156, In the forum post 161, a member writes

"Sikhs who were formerly Hindu chamars but converted to Sikhism are referred to as RAMDASIA Sikhs. This is because Sikhism under Guru Ram Das saw the maximum conversion of Hindu Chamars to Sikhism"

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In the website http://www.ambedkartimes.com/page14.html on Kanshi Ram

"Mr. Kanshi Ram was born in a Ramdasia ( Chamar ) low scheduled caste, dalit family on 15 March 1934 in village Khawaspur of Ropar district , Punjab, India."

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Matrimonial Profiles posted on the internet

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2009/20090614/class-f.htm, a post states:

Alliance for Ramdasia/Chamar/Ad-dharmi 26/5'-3" girl, pursuing B.A. Part I. Computer. Chandigarh family.

http://www.matrimonialsindia.com/main/detl1.php?sl=173609 ..Caste written as Ramdasia/Chamar —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bal537 (talk • contribs) 13:06, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Bal537 (talk) 13:10, 10 August 2009 (UTC)bal537

False Propaganda to malign Ramdasia Section

India constitution consists of various castes, backward, economically backward and various other minorities. However, it does not imply that every single community is a tanner.

If you go to this link http://www.punjabsewa.gov.in/citizen-services/showServiceInfo.jsp?sid=1.9

You will find "Julaha" listed under both SC list as well as Backward List "Jullaha". Just a difference of single L and double L although both have same meaning.

How can 1 sect listed in two separate categories ?? This clearly exposes serious flaws in the Indian Constitution.

There are not 1, but literally thousands of ambiguous terms used in the Constitution. Worse, several malicious edits have been made to suppress various communities in India.

Take for example, the marriage of Sikhs, Jains and Budhist are covered under Hindu Marriage Act. This can give enough ammunition to vandals to label budhist as Hindus, Sikhs as Hindus and Hindus as Budhist.

Refer to : http://www.panthic.org/printnews/129/ARTICLE/4952/2009-05-22.html (This article clearly outlines the mischievous works done by Corrupt officials in Indian Government to Malign/Suppress Minorities.). There are thousands of similar articles.

Sikhs, Budhist and various other minorities are fighting for their rights for the last 50 years. The Indian Government refuses each time they ask for a separate clause in the constitution. The Pakistan Government has made separate marriage act "Anand Marriage Act" which gives separate right to the Sikhs who marry in Pakistan.

Just search "Sikhs are Hindus", or "Budhist are Hindus". You will find thousands of malicious webpages proving that Budhist are Hindus and Sikhs are also Hindus. This clearly outlines the deep rooted conspiracy to suppress minority religions and communities and to devoid them of their rights/dignity by the corrupt officials working in the Indian Government.

There are several malicious edits which were made to the original content related to Ramdasia. If you go to the original document you would see clearly that the original author [navdeep] has clearly mentioned Ramdasia as a caste of weavers and not any other.

Ramdasia section was created on March 20, 2007 which clearly mentions Ramdasia as Weaver Sikh Community. On the other hand the Chamar section was created on 2nd July, 2008.

Ramdasia [Weavers, Julahas] have no relationship with Ravidasia[Cobblers,Chamars].

Refer: Refer: http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Julaha

====None of the what has been written above is relevent, you have not shown any verifiable links on the origins of Ramdasia. I too agree that they are weaver but they are Chamars who have taken up weaving. I have posted 3 books sources written by british authors that show even about 100 years ago, Ramdasias where known as Sikh Chamars. (Please note, no-one is trying to malign the Ramdasia community. I don't understand why being associated to the Chamar caste is considered a bad thing)==== Bal537 (talk) 12:57, 12 August 2009 (UTC)bal537

=== It has a deep relationship with the false propaganda started by the corrupt officials working in Indian Government who are trying their best manipulate minority communities, as well as religions ===Ravinder121 (talk) 13:37, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

==== This text in this link itself is copied from a wiki page, which itself is incorrect ==== Bal537 (talk) 12:57, 12 August 2009 (UTC)bal537

Guru Ramdas was a Sikh Guru. Guru Ravidas(Hindu Guru) belonged to a Hindu Family whose scriptures are imbibed in the Sikh's Guru Granth Sahib (similar to Bible).

Everyone has right to follow whatever religion or profession they want to take up, but when someone starts to manipulate/vandalise information just to present his own Eccentric views someone has to correct it.

Whetever malicious edits have been made in the past few months into the Ramdasia section is a part of deep sinister plot to malign Ramdasia Weavers Community and to vandalise their unique identity.

I would request editors to safeguard Ramdasia section permanently. There were also malicious edits which were made in the Sikh Light Infantry, but it was reverted back by another admin.

The Government of India issues a caste certificate to those belonging to cobbler community has only written "CHAMAR" (Nothing Else) which is hindi word for a Cobbler on it. Government of India has never ever issued any certificate which has ever written Chamar on the certificates of Ramdasia. Ramdasias get a caste certificate which has clearly written "Ramdasia (Julaha)" on it. THERE IS NO OTHER CASTE CERTIFICATE pertaining to these two separate communities.

==== A wrong statement since I am a Chamar and my birth certificate says "AD-Dharmi", my friend birth certificate says "Jatav" and he is a Chamar too". As you can see in the govt of india links, the associated Chamar castes lists are given, which includes "Ramdasia" ====' Bal537 (talk) 12:57, 12 August 2009 (UTC)bal537

=== I have seen several certificates from your community. They have only written"Chamar" and nothing else. Stop your false propaganda === Ravinder121 (talk) 13:37, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

There are various discrepancies in the Indian Constitution which are being exploited by vandals in order to suppress identity of any one community. The entire Chamar Section is a cocktail of Fallacies and nothing else. If you look at the comments posted by other users you will get to see several white lies mentioned in their section.

==== Everything in the Chamar section is sourced or will be sourced once I get permission to edit it ==== Bal537 (talk) 12:57, 12 August 2009 (UTC)bal537

Take for example, they have written that Chamars are known as Jats or Camel Riders which is another attempt to malign Jat/Jatt Community.

==== This has been sourced to a book and an ISBN also provided ==== Bal537 (talk) 12:57, 12 August 2009 (UTC)bal537

=== The section is full of fallicous facts=== Ravinder121 (talk) 13:37, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Refer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jat_people

Jat means those who are indulged in Farming. Government of India does not issue any caste certificate to Jats and this has given opportunity to few malicious people to malign Jat community by labeling them as Camel Rider.

There is no Hindi word which ever mentioned Jat as a Camel Rider.

Search Google for "Jat are Chamars" and you will find thousands of pages. The recent Shooting incident which took place in Vienna Ravidas Temple was a result of growing resentment among the Jat community (Farmers) towards Ravidas Community (Chamars).

There are various other fallacies in the Chamar Section. Probably, this is the only section on Wikipedia which is objected regularly by several readers on several accounts.

Some of the various false propaganda started by Ravidasias are as given below :-

Search Google for "brahmins are chamars", you will find concocted tales of Chamar community to malign this community as well. There are several false book published by Chamars which mention that "Earlier Brahmins and Chamars were real brothers". There were several famous singers,actors from Brahmin community such as Kailash Kher whose name was added maliciously into Chamar section just to vandalize identity of Priest Class. Everyone in India knows that Kher is a Brahmin (Priest Class) surname and not a Chamar Surname.

Check out these deleted pages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhapa . These pages had reference to Chamar, Jatt Sikh and Ravidasia which was aptly deleted by an alert admin.

The Chamar section has references to Brahmin, Kashatriya (Many Chamar families are descended from Kshatriya communities). The fact is none of the Chamar families ever descended from Kashatriya community, otherwise they would have been Kshatriya.

The entire Chamar section is just a cocktail of fallicious facts posted and manipulated regularly by eccentric people who want to use Wikipedia as a game of Monopoly and present contrived facts just to misguide worldwide readers.

PLEASE CHECK THIS GOVERNMENT WEBSITE LINK : http://www.punjablaws.gov.pk/laws/33.html

This is the original government link which clearly has mentioned "Ramdasia Sikh or a Kabirpanthia Sikh".

Kabirpanthis (Weavers) [i.e followers of Bhagat Kabir, a Hindu-Muslim saint] who converted into Sikhism [became followers of 4th Sikh Guru Ramdas] are only known as Ramdasia, Ramdasia Sikhs/Julahas or Weavers.

==== I went to the website and the entire text is "each returning two members, of whom one shall be a Mazhabi Sikh, a Ramdasia Sikh or a Kabirpanthia Sikh and the other shall be a Sikh who is neither a Mazhabi Sikh, a Ramdasia Sikh nor a Kabirpanthia Sikh.]" This clearly states that Ramdasia Sikh and a Kabirpanthia Sikh are different not the same. ==== Bal537 (talk) 13:00, 12 August 2009 (UTC)bal537

Ravinder121 (talk) 06:22, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Ramdasia (Weavers) Links

Following are the live matrimonial links from various websites which proves that Ramdasia is a caste of weavers.

http://www.gurmatparkash.com/?title=RAMDASIA_SIKHS http://www.askht.com/suiteable-match-for-ramdasia-sikh-weaver-girl-29-5-1-iid-37955431 http://ramdasiashadi.myehunt.com/?tag=ramdasia-sikh-boy http://www.ramdasiashadi.com/?cat=12 (Who are Ramdasia) http://www.shaadi.com/partner_search/matrimonial_search/profile.php?profileid=jaswinderMBA_2509&set=85d9db0dfbf61c0cabce7d190a053c18 (subcaste:weaver) http://profile.hindimatrimony.com/profiledetail/viewprofile.php?id=H1600822 (subcaste:weaver) http://classified.aapkancr.com/index.php?a=2&b=38213 http://www.tripatlas.com/Ramdasia http://profile.punjabimatrimony.com/profiledetail/viewprofile.php?id=P730502 [preferable match from Ramdasia (Weaver) cast ] http://www.olx.in/suitable-match-for-delhi-based-ramdasia-sikh-weaver-iid-18397107 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ravinder121 (talk • contribs) 20:30, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I have posted matrimonial posts showing people posting as both Ramdasia & Chamar. I know some my relatives when they posted matrimonial ads, they posted as Ramdasia Bal537 (talk) 13:07, 12 August 2009 (UTC)bal537

The Sikh Gurudwara Act of 1925 clearly mentions "Kabirpanthi Sikh or Ramdasia Sikh". This act is part of the Pakistan Government Punjab Laws. Pakistan was part of India in 1925.

Ramdasia[Weavers,Julahas] have no relationship with Ravidasia[Chamar,Cobblers].

Ravinder121 (talk) 13:31, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

warning to all

Any user who uses terms like "false propaganda" or "vandal" again in talking about this topic will be blocked 24 hours for personal attacks. Gwen Gale (talk) 13:44, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Discussion on links/sources provided

I think I provided more than enough sources and links that show the Ramdasia's are Chamars. The sources are books written by british authors 80-100 years ago, research papers, Indian constitution and official government of India websites.

If anyone disagrees, please post here with valid (& reasonable) arguments with verifiable links. Please answer these questions:

1. Numbered list item Why would three books (see above for links) say that Sikh Chamars are known as Ramdasia?
2. Numbered list item Why would so many research articles (see above for links) write that Ramdasia are Sikh Chamar?
3. Numbered list item Why do all official Indian Government websites state that Chamar & Ramdasia are the same?

Bal537 (talk) 23:49, 12 August 2009 (UTC)bal537

It has been several days since I asked for discussion on this. Please respond to the questions I have asked. If no-one responds I will assume that everyone agrees that Ramdasia's are Sikh Chamars.

Bal537 (talk) 14:29, 17 August 2009 (UTC)bal537

Silence is not consensus. As yet there is no hint of consensus for your proposed edits. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:35, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Chamar Populations by state (Will add to main page if no objections)

The Chamar caste is the 2nd largest caste in India (after the Brahmins). With a population estimated at 50 million (with about 20 million in the state of U.P alone), they are spread over several North India states.

Bengal http://censusindia.gov.in/Tables_Published/SCST/dh_sc_westbengal.pdf

The Chamar population is 995,756 or 1.25% of the state's population.

Bihar http://www.censusindia.gov.in/Tables_Published/SCST/dh_sc_bihar.pdf

Chamar is the most populous caste with a population of 4,090,070 or 5% of the state's population.

Delhi http://www.censusindia.gov.in/Tables_Published/SCST/dh_sc_delhi.pdf

The Chamar population is 893,384 constituting 38.1 per cent of the total SC population or 17% of the city population.

Chandigarh http://censusindia.gov.in/Tables_Published/SCST/dh_sc_chandigarh.pdf

The Chamar population is 48,159 or 5.3% of the city population.

Chhattisgarh http://censusindia.gov.in/Tables_Published/SCST/dh_sc_chhattisgarh.pdf

The Chamar population is 1,659,303 or 8% of the state's population. Chamars have registered large number in Raipur, Bilaspur, Janjgir-Champa and Durg districts. Ganda have their maximum population in Raigarh and Raipur districts.

Haryana http://www.censusindia.gov.in/Tables_Published/SCST/dh_sc_haryana.pdf

Chamar are numerically the largest schedule caste group with a population of 2,079,132, constituting 50.8 per cent of the state’s scheduled caste population or 8% of the state’s population.

Jharkand http://censusindia.gov.in/Tables_Published/SCST/dh_sc_jharkhand.pdf

The Chamar population is 837,333 or 3.1% of the state's population.

Jammu & Kashmir http://censusindia.gov.in/Tables_Published/SCST/dh_sc_jk.pdf

The Chamar population in the state is 187,277 population or 1.9% of the state population. The Chamars are mostly concentrated in the Jammu district.

Madya Pradesh http://censusindia.gov.in/Tables_Published/SCST/dh_sc_madhya_pradesh.pdf

The Chamar population is 4,498,165 or about 7.5% of the population. Though Chamar are primarily concentrated in Sagar, Morena, Rewa, Bhind and Chhatarpur districts, they have their highest proportion (75.7 per cent) in Morena district.

Punjab http://www.censusindia.gov.in/Tables_Published/SCST/dh_sc_punjab.pdf

The Scheduled Caste (SC) population of Punjab is 70,28,723, which constitutes 28.9 per cent of the total population of the State. The Chamar population according to the 2001 census is 2,888,805 or 12% of the state's population. District-wise distribution of the SC population shows that they are mainly concentrated in the districts of Amritsar, Ludhiana, Jalandhar, Sangrur,Gurdaspur, Hoshiarpur and Patiala. These districts account for 62.5 per cent of the total SC population.

Rajashtan http://www.censusindia.gov.in/Tables_Published/SCST/dh_sc_rajasthan.pdf

The Chamar population of Rajasthan according to the 2001 Census is 2,465,563, which constitutes about 4% of the state's population or approximately 25% of the total scheduled caste population. Chamar constitute highest proportion (76.7 per cent) of the total SC population in Bharatpur district, followed by Dhaulpur (68.2 per cent), Jhunjhunun (59.7 per cent).

Uttar Pradesh http://www.censusindia.gov.in/Tables_Published/SCST/dh_sc_up.pdf

The Chamar population in this state the highest of all states at 19,803,106 constituting 56.3 per cent of the total SC population. The Scheduled Caste (SC) population of Uttar Pradesh is 35,148,377 at 2001 census, constituting 21.1 percent of the total population (166,197,921) of the State. Uttar Pradesh holds 1st rank and 4th rank in terms of absolute number of SC population.

Uttaranchal (Uttarakhand) http://www.censusindia.gov.in/Tables_Published/SCST/dh_sc_uttaranchal.pdf

The Chamar population in this state is 444,535 according to the 2001 Census or 5% of the state's population.

Will add more states soon Bal537 (talk) 14:01, 13 August 2009 (UTC)bal537

Dr. Ambedkar

Hello; I don't think was a Chamar. He was from Maharashtra and from Mahar caste not Chamar caste. He was a great man and one of the most influential men of India. Chamars have deep respect for him but he is not from our caste. Go to www.ambedkar.org for complete info. SandeepSingh1980 (talk) 15:13, 31 August 2009 (UTC)sandeepsingh1980

You are right. Dr B.R Ambedkar was not from the Chamar caste, he was from the Mahar caste. Bal537 (talk) 23:23, 31 August 2009 (UTC)bal537

Music Section & Sport section

Hello Dr. Bhim Rao Ambedakar bassicaly from Mahar Cast Equal to Chamar ,Mahar is doing same work in Maharstra , for leather work Hello; There are some names listed in these sections that I am pretty sure are not from Chamar caste such as Gurmeet Kaur Bawa is from Brahmin caste, PT USHA is definelty not Chamar caste, Akshay Kumar is from Khatri caste and Manmohan Waris is from jatt caste. SandeepSingh1980 (talk) 15:20, 31 August 2009 (UTC)sandeepsingh1980

To Sandeep Singh, Why cant they be Chamars? Every second or third person around you could be a chamar, take it for sure. They are present in all walks of life and many of them have excellent exceptional qualities, but they hide their identities at most of the occasions. That is why credit for all excellence finally goes to non chamars.....posted by neobie —Preceding unsigned comment added by Neobie (talk • contribs) 04:41, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree that some these people are most likely not from the Chamar caste, but not 100% sure Bal537 (talk) 23:24, 31 August 2009 (UTC)bal537.