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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Duke Atreides (talk | contribs) at 02:16, 12 June 2010 (→‎Recension nomenclature, yet again: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Recensions

I see this has been discussed before although the article hasn't been edited. Modern linguistic terminology refers to Bulgarian, Macedonian and Moravian recensions. It seems as though a user has mistakenly "described" these recensions as Western and Eastern Bulgarian while specialists use "Bulgarian", "Macedonian" and "Moravian" to differentiate them. Please correct me if I'm mistaken regarding Wikipedia's policy for specialist terminology. --124.169.35.72 (talk) 13:12, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And the biggest part of "specialists" regard them as they were prior to your edit. You're correct in one, though - this has been discussed and this is the version we got to. --Laveol T 21:33, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. From what I can see (and believe me, I've been digging all over the place), this article is the only one to every use those terms. --124.169.205.21 (talk) 10:21, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]


!!! I don't know how to start a new article, but... I believe the items in this article should be set in a cyrillic face. I can't stand the romanization. It's sacriligious? How do you spell that? Thanks.

Recensions, again...

  • Sometime around the end of 2005, an anonymous editor added the term "Macedonian recension" which VMORO swiftly removed.
  • User:Crculver rightly advised VMORO that the terms "Macedonian recension" and "Old Macedonian" are valid and "quite common in contemporary English handbooks" to which VMORO erroneously replied was "extremely rarely found name which on top of it is used for the Ancient Macedonian language", instead insisting on the terms "West Bulgarian" and "East Bulgarian". Crculver reverts again and, understandably frustrated, says "Do you even own the English handbooks (Schmalstieg, Nandris, Lunt, etc.)?".
  • User:Kroum removes "Old Macedonian", Crculver reverts ("The term "Old Macedonian" is widely used in English handbooks, such as Schmalstieg's and Nandris'").
  • Over the next few years, there are reverts here and there. Several discussions are start on the talk page:

The four sources given for "Macedonian recension" attest for its use in Western academic literature and even distinguish it from the Bulgarian. This is not the case for those sources given for "Western/Eastern [sic] Bulgarian":

  • The first source states: Codex Marianus is an Old Church Slavonic text of West Bulgarian provenience.

I can give several arguments for why this doesn't apply, but it just doesn't attest the use of the term "Western [sic] Bulgarian recension". The phrase "of West Bulgarian provenience" in this context especially isn't a linguistic one by any stretch.

  • The second source states: Der Text [Codex Zographensis] stammt aus dem westbulgarischen (makedonischen) Raum und wurde Ende des 10.Jh. oder Anfang des 11. Jh. geschrieben. Am archaischsten ist er hinsichtlich seiner Phonetik, während die Morphologie neuere Züge aufweist.

This text isn't even in English: it cannot attest the use of scholarly English full stop.

The terms West(ern) Bulgarian and East(ern) Bulgarian recension can only be found in this Wikipedia and its mirrors.

It is my opinion that several users (from both sides of the revert war) have made this an issue of ethnicity. I can't believe that this has been kept for 4 years. --124.169.205.21 (talk) 06:45, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The fact is that users like you have turned this into an ethnicity issue (and continue doing so). The fact is that the political entity within which the language was developed was the First Bulgarian Empire. I know it's hard to believe, given a certain education background, but it's a fact. Hence, the name. It's been heavily discussed in the past as well. Think of them as the two aspects of identifying the language. Geographically the Western recension was developed in Macedonia (the region) and the political entity that supported it and in whose educational/spiritual centres that developed it, was the First Bulgarian Empire. Thank you. --Laveol T 09:39, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I do not dispute the political entity in which the language developed, but rather the English scholarly terminology used in literature which isn't represented in this article. "Macedonian" in this context is unrelated to the political entity the Republic of Macedonia. This does not mean we as editors need to accommodate for any misinterpretations a reader may or may not have which can be resolved with a simple opening sentence stating such ("the names of the recensions in contemporary literature as based on..."). Why do you insist on using a particular terminology invented solely for this article? That's is why I suspect that you believe (whether consciously or unconsciously) this to be a matter of something other than linguistics. I'm sorry if I've offended you, perhaps I've misunderstood something. --124.169.205.21 (talk) 17:16, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I totally agree that Macedonian recension is widely used. That language is quite different than the language used in BG at that time and that's why it is mentioned separately in the linguistics. I heard this term West BG recension here on Wiki, off course after the BG POV presented here. In Macedonia and in the Slavistics the Macedonian recension uses different language that the Bulgarian and that's why it is separated. Even the earliest Macedonian writer Partenija Zografski explains this in his book and states the differences between the Macedonian and Bulgarian language. I support the use of Macedonian recension only.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 18:11, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As Laveol pointed out, we have to make sure that readers do not misunderstand what 'recension' refers to. It is very important that we avoid an association between the Bulgarian language of the Ohrid Literary School and the modern Macedonian language. The way MacedonianBoy and other contributors who have received similar education view the matter, it is very easy to mislead the reader. It is also quite clear that some contributor's actually aim to make the section easy to misunderstand and to purposefully associate the modern Macedonian language with the Bulgarian language of the Ohrid Literary School by not naming it 'Bulgarian' altogether.
The language of the Ohrid Literary School was simply put the language spoken in that area of the Bulgarian Empire, i.e. a western Bulgarian vernacular. The Ohrid recension displays some of the features of that vernacular, which means that the 'Western Bulgarian' nomenclature is perfectly logical. An argument against naming the recension 'Macedonian' might be that the region did not bear that name at the time: the medieval theme of Macedonia was actually in modern Thrace. What's more, Ohrid was not the only centre of Western Bulgarian literature: there was also the early centre Devoll, which is in modern Albania, not in the region of Macedonia. Of course, the name 'Macedonian recension' is a valid name used by scholars, so I'm not against retaining it in parentheses, as wrong as it may be.
I am opposed to any attempts to remove 'Western Bulgarian' as the name of the recension, however. Even reversing the wording ("Macedonian (Western Bulgarian) recension") will make it look like a modern political argument, which it is not. The way we currently have the names, it is as clear as possible to the reader that the recension is unrelated to the modern Macedonian language, but rather refers to the modern geographic region where it was used, and which fell in the western part of the Bulgarian Empire.
In short, the name 'Western Bulgarian recension' is both more accurate and 'safer', and the name 'Macedonian recension' is ambiguous and extremely misleading (see MacedonianBoy's post above as a good example of an attempt to use it to deceive the readers). Todor→Bozhinov 22:48, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]



As Laveol pointed out, we have to make sure that readers do not misunderstand what 'recension' refers to. It is very important that we avoid an association between the Bulgarian language of the Ohrid Literary School and the modern Macedonian language.

So why were terms such as "West Bulgarian recension" and "East Bulgarian recension" invented in place of contemporary terminology? Why can't this possible misunderstanding be resolved by a sentence explaining the context in which these terms are used in contemporary linguistic studies? The problem remains that the recensions are only named "West/East Bulgarian" in this article and nowhere in academic literature!

The way MacedonianBoy and other contributors who have received similar education view the matter, it is very easy to mislead the reader.

This has nothing to do with what is taught in Bulgarian schools VS schools in the R. Macedonia. This is a subject which has been studied in Western academia for a quite a while now.

The language of the Ohrid Literary School was simply put the language spoken in that area of the Bulgarian Empire, i.e. a western Bulgarian vernacular. The Ohrid recension displays some of the features of that vernacular, which means that the 'Western Bulgarian' nomenclature is perfectly logical.

Nobody is disputing that, but it is illogical to use the 'Western Bulgarian' nomenclature because it was invented for this article. Secondly, it is confusing because it is a term used in modern linguistics to distinguish the dialect groups within the modern Bulgaria. I can provide several sources to support this, but you can just read other articles here where they are used in that very same context.

An argument against naming the recension 'Macedonian' might be that the region did not bear that name at the time: the medieval theme of Macedonia was actually in modern Thrace.

You're getting way off-topic. The problem is not whether or not these terms correspond to anything back then, but the terminology used in modern English-language literature. By that logic, Russian language should be renamed Great Russian language because that's older nomenclature. But we are talking about contemporary terminology developed and considered standard in Western academia. Not politics. Not ethnicity.

I am opposed to any attempts to remove 'Western Bulgarian' as the name of the recension, however. Even reversing the wording ("Macedonian (Western Bulgarian) recension") will make it look like a modern political argument, which it is not.

For the umpteenth time: this is not an issue of politics or anything other than current terminology! If you are so worried the use of "Macedonian recension" will somehow detract from your national myth, perhaps you can add a sentence (or paragraph, knock yourself out) explaining the context in which the term in used.

The way we currently have the names, it is as clear as possible to the reader that the recension is unrelated to the modern Macedonian language, but rather refers to the modern geographic region where it was used, and which fell in the western part of the Bulgarian Empire.

So why can't we state that in the article instead of inventing West-this and East-that? --124.169.205.21 (talk) 05:19, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I don't why I'm bothering. The two sources for "Western [sic] Bulgarian" don't support the use of that term, nor are there any sources for "Eastern [sic] Bulgarian". --124.169.205.21 (talk) 05:48, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]


TO END THE DISPUTE
I would like to remind you all that :
The Bulgarians were a small tribe that was assimilated in the large population of Slaves (Serbs or whoever they were – this is not known), and by remaining Thracian tribes. They all finally adopted slave language, but lost declinations – so they adopted it as foreign language.
The state has been Bulgaria for over 10 centuries and its name was based on the initial Bulgarian dynasty, but the adopted language was a variant of the slave language, not Bulgarian language.
The Thessaloniki and that part of the Balkans was Macedonia since 4-6 centuries BC. The people who lived there were geographically Macedonians and traditionally Macedonians and belonged to the inheritance of the Macedonian empire of the Alexander III. At the ancient times all what counted was officially accepted citizenship (as this should be also today!) and ethnic belonging was of little importance. Initially then, after Alexander III, Macedonian empire kingdoms were replaced by Roman empire which become Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantium). During all that time Macedonian provinces remained as the provinces or themata. This stayed like this even after the Slave invasion in 5th and 6 century, as well as during Ottoman empyre. Macedonia always existed. Who are the people who are there, is the other, ethnic and I think question wity strong racist conotations.
The population around Thessaloniki was by the 6th – 7th century obviously predominantly Slave and certainly NOT Bulgarian. So the language was Slave. This was the language of the Old Slavonic, which remained in these Slave regions (including Russia and other Slave countries) as Church Slavonic. There is no old Bulgarian as such. The name of the Eastern version is nevertheless linked to the Bulgarian kingdom from these times (it was even recognized as empire for a short period of time), and the name is technical and has NOTHING to do with the ethnic structures of the populations. What may be "Bulgarian" in the modern Bulgarian language, is probably the absance of the declinations and other similar impurities. The "Old Bulgarian" is in fact old Slave, or probably it was the most close to the Old Macedonian (of Cyril and Methodius, and not of the ancient Macedonia, which was the language of Phillip II of Macedonia).
The claims that now Macedonians are Bulgarians is equally absurd as the claim that modern Macedonian language is the same as the Ancient Macedonia of Fillip II and Alexander III. But the populations of Bulgaria and Macedonia ARE a mixture of predominantly Slave and populations of the ancient Thrace and Macedonia.
Therefore for the time being, technical as they are, the linguistic definitions of the languages in question, Old Church Slavonic and its various “recensions”, are correct. To use the imperfections of these definitions in order to advance local political aspirations, is polluting the site and should be avoided.HERODOTUS1A. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.46.7.165 (talk) 10:45, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]


It's quite a disgrace that an IP defended Wikipedian rules, while longtime registered users, who should have known better, defended nationalist POV. All the learned considerations that all the Bulgarian users here have expressed are completely irrelevant, because Wikipedia is supposed to reflect English academic usage, full stop. Wikipedia may not invent and use new terms, this is the job of scholars, and if you do it here, it's Original Research. Do you people seriously think you as Wikipedians are qualified to correct academia's allegedly "mistaken" and "misleading" terminology? This is completely opposite to everything that Wikipedia is about. And you have the nerve to be sarcastic about "certain education backgrounds", when your behaviour is the living example of the fact that once someone has passed a Bulgarian nationalist education, no amount of foreign language learning and international project experience can change anything. --91.148.159.4 (talk) 20:50, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Consonant clusters

Are there any consonant clusters with more than three consonants in Old Church Slavonic? --84.61.151.145 (talk) 17:42, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Old Macedonian

How does the term "Old Macedonian" apply to Old Church Slavonic? If I am not mistaken, there was no language called Macedonian until the 1940s. Further insight would be much appreciated. Robercie (talk) 03:20, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Old Macedonian" is an alternative name (along with "Old Bulgarian") used in academic literature to refer to the Old Church Slavonic language. It's obviously taken from the name of the region in which the language originally developed. Whether or not you believe a Macedonian nation or language existed pre 1940 is irrelevant and completely unrelated to the term itself. --203.166.230.176 (talk) 12:15, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you follow the link, you'll see the sources which attest its use. I'd even go as far as to say "Old Macedonian" dominates over "Old Bulgarian" when discussing alternative names. --203.166.230.176 (talk) 12:18, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Understood and duly noted. I hope you can see how, living in the present, a patron might be able misconstrue the meaning of the term. Also, I did not wish to convey an opinion on the presence of a Macedonian language prior to the 1940s; I simply made a statement in accordance with the best of my knowledge. Robercie (talk) 18:04, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

West/East Bulgarian

I am removing the above terms from the article because:

  • no references have been given to attest the academic use of "East Bulgarian recension" or "Moesian recension"
  • the two references for "West Bulgarian recension" do not attest its use in academic literature:

Recensions

I don't see why some registered editors feel like the earlier recensions need to be grouped together under a single heading. It also doesn't make much sense to have "Bulgarian recensions: Bulgarian, Macedonian, Moravian" or "Moravian recensions: Moravian, Bulgarian, Macedonian". They are not grouped as such in literature dealing with OCS. --124.150.58.207 (talk) 10:06, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Recension nomenclature, yet again

So, I'm really not sure why this article takes pains to state that the Macedonian recension is so distinct from the modern Macedonian language. The Codex Marianus, for instance, shows some distinctly Macedonian reflexes for the strong yers (occasional though the mistakes are), and while modern literary Macedonian certainly didn't descend from the Ohrid school, there are clear phonological relations. It just doesn't make any sense to take such pains to so heinously misrepresent to readers in the service of what's clearly Bulgarian nationalism. Duke Atreides (talk) 02:16, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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