Talk:Our Lady of Guadalupe

Codex Escalada

Does anyone have more details on the objections of Poole et. al. to the veracity of the Codex Escalada? Saying "it's too good to be true" isn't exactly a scholarly critique. It's been 15 years since this codex surfaced, surely they have something more substantial by now? Also, perhaps more details could be added about what the Codex supposedly says? I don't know much about it; maybe someone who does can add it. SHarold (talk) 22:00, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Bellarmino (talk) 07:17, 1 May 2010 (UTC) I agree, it's entirely unscientific and displays a kind of desperation. Scholars who have staked their reputations on denying the historicity of the apparition simply could not cope with the discovery of a fact which was incompatible with their published works on the subject, so they denied the fact. The silence about it since is telling, surely.

Gregorian or Julian Calendar

Did the event of the revelation of Our Lady of Guadalupe occur on the dates given according to Julian or Gregorian Calendar? --Xact (talk) 00:35, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Gregorian. {..::M@®©™ ::..} (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with File:Virgin of Guadalope Veroart.jpg

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This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --01:21, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Hillary Clinton?

Is Hillary Clinton's visit to the shrine sufficiently relevant to merit inclusion here? Frank Lynch (talk) 19:44, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, it certainly didn't belong in the "pontifical pronouncements" section! It was also selectively copied from [1] without attribution. Removed. The news report may be useful to cite in other places in the article, though. Gimmetrow 19:52, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Guadalupe as symbol of Mexico

I'd say she is a symbol of Mexico, even non-Catholic Mexico (though the current "symbol of all Mexicans" phrasing is bad).

I'm not alone in believing this:

Carlos Fuentes -- "...one may no longer consider himself a Christian, but you cannot truly be considered a Mexican unless you believe in the Virgin of Guadalupe."

Octavio Paz -- "When Mexicans no longer believe in anything, they will still hold fast to their belief in two things: the National Lottery and the Virgin of Guadalupe. In this I think they will do well. For both have been known to work, even for those of us who believe in nothing."

In the book Chicano art inside/outside the master's house, Alicia Gaspar de Alba wrote that "The two earliest icons of Chicano/a popular culture are the images of the brown-skinned Virgen de Guadalupe and the black thunderbird, both revolutionary symbols of Raza empowerment. Known as the 'empress of Mexico,' the Virgin symbolizes Mexican racial and religious mestizaje. While this is a problematic image for contemporary Chicana feminists, during el Movimiento the Virgin iconographed the biological source of Chicano brotherhood (i.e. the Mexican motherland) and also constituted a symbol of indigenist resistance to spiritual colonization..." (p. 47)

Guadalupe's been used to symbolize Mexico and Mexican independence (i.e. as the flag for Hidalgo and Zapata's armies and as the name of an EZLN "mobile city"), and shows up in pagan and nonreligious as well as political Chicano contexts (i.e. by Cesar Chavez and the United Farmworkers, in US-based Mexican Independence Day parades, and in queer Chicana art). (And see also discussion of Guadalupe-as-symbol-of-Mexico in Rafaela Castro's Chicano Folktales, Stafford Poole's Our Lady of Guadalupe. The Origins and Sources of a Mexican National Symbol, and various writings by Eric Wolf and Virgil Elizondo.)

en mexico hasta los ateos son guadalupanos, Katsam (talk) 20:15, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

That is simply not true, and frankly the Paz and Fuentes quotes are disturbingly chauvinist to the millions of Mexican citizens who do neither believe in the virgin nor much less worship her. They are also clearly meant as caricatures of the "mexican national character" rather than as statements of actual fact. Fact is that Mexico has an ever growing number of protestants and areligious people, Mexico's constitution has been areligious since 1918 and no-one is required to believe anything to be a "true Mexican".·Maunus·ƛ· 15:35, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I feel like we're talking past one another. Of course not all Mexicans believe in the Virgin of Guadalupe. That isn't the question I was trying to raise, and I apologize if my using that last quotation made you think that's what I was arguing.

The issue I was raising is is the Virgin of Guadalupe widely seen as a symbol of Mexico and/or Mexican identity. There is ample documentation to support this claim, as seen above. I am satisfied with the fact that the top of this article says that Guadalupe "has been used as a symbol of the nation," and would be fine striking the "symbol of all Catholic Mexicans" part altogether. ~~ (Damn I've been off Wikipedia so long I don't even remember how to sign my name. Katsam (talk) 10:44, 27 November 2009 (UTC))

Article is crappy tag

I agree with the tag that says the article has a lot of problems, but could the tagger point out specifically what they think needs attention? Maybe in triage format.

Also, could someone archive the talk page? I don't know how. Thanks. Katsam (talk) 20:17, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Archive done. Marauder40 (talk) 20:28, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

The Pope & Karol Wojtyla

Maunus, I will not revert to Wojtyla again, but I do insist that that is his official name and it should not be a problem using it instead of "The Pope" in the context of this article. Like I said before, I was just trying to make the "He" on the original sentence a little bit more clear.

I usually visit this article every year a couple of days before the festivities of Dec. 12 to make sure it's not too messy. People try to add their POV's all the time and it ends up being very unconnected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by IFeito (talk • contribs) 19:22, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I am not adamant about it either, but in the context of first having used Pope John Paul II, then he, and then using the name Karol Wojtyla made it seem more confusing to me rather than good writing. Secondly I do think that theologically speaking Karol Wojtyla never had the power to canonize, that power is vested in the office of the Pope who is known by another name. If anyone else agrees with IFeito rather than me I encourage them to change back to IFeito's version - I shall not revert again. Anyway I am glad that someone else is taking and interest in the article, which as you say does tend to become messy quickly. Thanks for arguing in good spirit. ·Maunus·ƛ· 22:03, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Maunus here, in the context of this section he should either be referred to as "he", "the Pope" or "Pope John Paul II". Using his given name, doesn't reflect that he was Pope at the time of the canonization. Marauder40 (talk) 22:06, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I will not revert, but just for the sake of argument, when you discuss the President of the United States you can either say "The President" of Barack Obama; nobody would consider those two not being interchangeable. Wojtyla used the Title of Pope John Paul II while he was in office; can't see why they would be any different; the article states it was done in 2002, well within the term of his papacy. Schicchi (talk) 02:24, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

The difference is that the president doesn't change his name when he becomes president. The Pope does for all official matters. Once he become Pope you refer to him by that name. We don't know what he does in private matters, but on all official matters of state and church related things he goes by his new name. Marauder40 (talk) 13:55, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Historicity debate and controversies: incorrect Virgin of Extremadura

• (Discussion moved to bottom of page. New subjects are added at the BOTTOM of talk pages.)

Incorrect Virgin of Extremadura is referenced and displayed on page. Leoncio Garza-Valdés talks about a high relief sculpture located in the choir section from an Extremadura monastery. Leoncio states "This Virgin of the choir is from 1498. It is made in high relief sculpture of wood. I traveled to Extremadura to check, he explains." [2]. Further investigation points that indeed the Virgin he was talking about was dated 1498-1499; thats 30~ years before Our Lady of Guadalupe of Tepeyac painting. Following are the correct version in which Leoncio was referring to:

1. Shown here [3] in black in white. Translated: "Sculpture of Our Lady, placed in 1499 on the front wall of the choir in the Monastery of Guadalupe, Caceres (Extremadura). Its invoice [form] of Flamenca. Has some similarities with Our Lady of Guadalupe of Tepeyec." Source: Revista de Impugnadores[4]

2. A version in color at a blog source [5] with more detail. Source: Virgen de Guadalupe: Dos imágenes que desmienten definitivamente "El milagro"[6]

It's unclear if the high relief sculpture of Our Lady in the Choir, and Lady of Guadalupe (Extremadura) are located in the same Monastery. Our Lady of the Choir is described to be located in Monastery of Guadalupe, Caceres, while Lady of Guadalupe (Extremadura) located as monastery of Santa María de Guadalupe. This may or may not be the same location. Its important to note Extremadura is an autonomous community (similar to county or state) of western Spain whose capital city is Mérida.

Clearly Our Lady of Guadalupe of Tepeyac have very similar aspects from Our Lady in the choir of Monastery of Guadalupe, Caceres (Extremadura). Both have a kind of winged guardian, light rays, stars in the mantle, half moon and the Immaculate conception. --Djcasual (talk) 22:07, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

The Virgin of Guadalupe in Spain is a statue, not a relief wall-carving, which is what you have linked to. The image in the article is therefore correct, being the actual pilgrim statue from the 1300s. Xandar 00:26, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Im not disputing that the pilgrimage statue of Virgin of Guadalupe in Spain [7] is incorrect or invalid, and Im certainly not trying to take anything away from her or replace her. Thats not what I'm trying to correct here.

Let me re-word the heading since I can see how this may be confusing. I'm simply pointing out that in Leoncio Garza-Valdés research he was refereeing to a completely different virgin statue; a high relief statue found in the choir wall of Monastery of Guadalupe, Caceres (Extremadura). This is exactly what he had stated on this article paragraph 29 [8]. Weather or not the Virgin of choir is also named Guadalupe is up for debate, but thats not what I'm trying to correct here.

In this article Historicity debate and controversies gives incorrect statement from Leoncio Garza-Valdés. Article reads 'He also stated that the original image showed striking similarities to the original Lady of Guadalupe found in Extremadura Spain' which is wrong and thus the picture is also wrong. --Djcasual (talk) 20:07, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

I see what you mean now. Leoncio Garza-Valdés views on this seem to be quoted incorrectly from a Spanish language source. This is one reason why English Wikipedia should only use English language sources. There is one English language source given for Valdes, [9], but it doesn't say what our article currently claims. Perhaps this statement should be removed or rewritten. Xandar 02:04, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Historicity and documentation edits

Bellarmino (talk) 00:08, 12 February 2010 (UTC) I'm new to this. I have made some edits adding some sources and infomation supporting the historicity of the apparition and they have been deleted without a trace. I have two questions - why does the "history" not show that these edits were made and undone, and why were they undone?

Bellarmino (talk) 00:35, 12 February 2010 (UTC) Now an "undo" has belatedly appeared on the "history" page and still there is no sign of the log of my edits to begin with. Is this a technical fault? Further, the reason given for the undo was "not sufficiently neutral" when entire sections of the article are a sustained assault on the historical truth of the apparitions. If neutrality were really valued, you'd just about have to wipe the thing and start again. If you can specify which bits of text are not "sufficiently neutral" I can edit the article more effectively, but I am lost as it stands - my edits were rational, supported by references to published, scholarly, documentation, and more importantly they were factual, unlike some of the material I deleted. I can only presume that some sentence or perhaps adjective falls afoul of the "not sufficiently neutral" notion.

Bellarmino (talk) 00:38, 12 February 2010 (UTC) I see now that I have been looking at the history of the discussion, not the history of the article. That explains that much. However I still would like answers to my other, substantive, questions please.

I can't answer your questions about why you apparently couldn't see your edit history or that of the article. It must have been a technical glitch or an oversight. However it should be abundantly clear that your edits are not neutral you even write in your edit summaries that they are intended to put the apparitionist account in a more positive light. That is the definition of "not neutral". Further more you use weasel terms and synthesis (your bit about how the entire aztec tradition is derived form postcolonial sources is a synthesis of your devise - and it is a fallacious argument as well). You also introduce spurious non-reliable apparitionist sources "The wonder opf Guadelupe" is one such. The long quote from Virgil Elizondo is in conflict with the use of quotes allowed by the MOS. He is also not even a reliable source to be used in the article for any claim other than perhaps his own opinion if that is somehow notable - which I highly doubt. Scholars don't question the codex escalada because its inconvenient, but because it is MUCH TOO convenient. Your comment about "the codex escalada as fact" and "Poole and Brading's unscientific sneer" isnothing but your personal opinion and is simply inadmissible to the article. You should try by reading WP:VERIFY, WP:NEUTRAL and WP:RS before you edit further.

Bellarmino (talk) 12:06, 12 February 2010 (UTC) Your use of the term "apparitionist" betrays your own prejudice, as does your contentment with the numerous editorialising and tendentious features of the original article. If you can identify anything other than the word "sneer" that I have used, please specify and I will happily edit to remove them. As for the assertion that I seek to "put the apparitionist account in a more positive light" you must be referring to this comment: "adding some sources and infomation supporting the historicity of the apparition." I must have misunderstood and assumed that the aim was accurate data in the disinterested search for truth, which presupposes an objective and unprejudiced approach rather than the kind of unscientific mentality you express. Identify the "weasel" terms, state the reasons for dismissing my sources (believing in the truth of the apparitions is not sufficient, any more than I can reject Poole's stupidities merely because he is a rationalist-priest - we need to put the facts and form sound judgements). As for my argument about extant sources, I don't mind if you don't find it compelling. Evidently you don't grasp the case put by Poole and others, which is that the absence of extant contemorary documents is crucial in assessing the truth of historical facts, a stance which is pretty dumb for any putative historian to have put, and especially when one considers that on that basis the entire history of Mexico before the Conquest would be a blank slate.

Our Lady of Guadalupe (Our Beloved Mother)

Ref. Our Lady of Guadalupe

On 26 January 2010 14:41/CET, you reverted my edit of 26 January 2010 13:52/CET, where I had sub-edited my previous edit of 26 January 2010 13:39/CET (Footnote on the real meaning in Nahuatl of Tonantzin (to-nan-tzin): "Our Venerable Mother"), with the following change:

• Tonantzin (to-nan-tzin): "Our Venerable Mother" => "Our Beloved Mother"

It is not clear to me from the comment appended to you edit ("revert - not an improvement") if (1) you simply wanted to revert to my first version ("Our Venerable Mother") OR (2) if you wanted to scrap even that one.

• If (1), I would obviously bow to your linguistic competence, not without informing you that I have carefully consulted English/Nahuatl dictionaries before the edit ("Our Venerable Mother" => "Our Beloved Mother")
• If (2), I will ask you to justify the reason for your action, also because, contrary to you declared observance of the "1 Revert Rule", and your declared policy ("if I revert an edit I discuss it on the talk page immediately and refrain from reverting the same edit if inserted again"), you have obviously NOT talked of the reason for your action on the Talk Page.

In any event (as per 1 Revert Rule), please contact me before taking any further action on that article.

Thank you.

Miguel de Servet (talk) 22:04, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

The most important reason for my reversal was that the foot note you introduced was not sourced. I believe that if a translation of Tonantzin it should be sourced to a reliable source. Linguistically there is no clear reason to choose venerable over beloved or vice versa, the -tzin reverential suffix means both. That is why it would need a source. If you find a reliable source translating Tonantzin as one or the other then that is ook and I will not object to its inclusion, I would even suggest that it go into the main text instead of a footnote. But on the contrary the choice between which one to write is Original Research and essentially arbitrary. I am sorry that I didn't immediately discuss on the talk page, I should have done that. I will copy this discussion to the talk page of Our Lady of Guadelupe. ·Maunus·ƛ· 08:03, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Reliable sources

I've raised the issue of the reliablility of the Texas Catholic Herald, which is the official publication of the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston, at WP:RSN [10]. At the moment, all we have is what is basically a 'house organ' and we need to be able to verify this. In particular, we need to know who did the tests, what the tests are, and what the exact results were. Also, this is a WP:REDFLAG issue. Our policy (note, not just a guideline) says:

Exceptional claims require exceptional sources

See also: Wikipedia:Fringe theories

Certain red flags should prompt editors to examine the sources for a given claim:

• surprising or apparently important claims not covered by mainstream sources;
• reports of a statement by someone that seems out of character, embarrassing, controversial, or against an interest they had previously defended;
• claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community, or that would significantly alter mainstream assumptions, especially in science, medicine, history, politics, and biographies of living persons. This is especially true when proponents consider that there is a conspiracy to silence them.

Exceptional claims in Wikipedia require high-quality sources.If such sources are not available, the material should not be included. Also be sure to adhere to other policies, such as the policy for biographies of living persons and the undue weight provision of Wikipedia:Neutral point of view.

Dougweller (talk) 08:41, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

The same is the case with "The Wonder of Guadalupe, Francis Johnston, TAN Books, 1981" - this book is obvious devotional literature (TAN books[11] is a catholic press) and not a scholarly source. It is also published ten years before the seminal works by Burkhart, Poole and Lockhart were published€ and so can not in any way be considered up to date on these issues. As a source it is simply not up to the standard and can not be used to argue against scholarly, peer reviewed sources such as the before mentioned. ·Maunus·ƛ· 08:55, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Deleted possibly-defamatory comments by User:203.16.9.138 - I've given grounds over at Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Are_these_talk_page_attacks_acceptable.3f the BLP noticeboard. --GenericBob (talk) 02:35, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Ok, you have stated your opinions now, I am sure that felt good. Now I must stress that in order for you to continue editing this article you must comply with the policies that we have for editing. The most important of these as they relate to this case are that all claims must be verifiable and supported by reliable sources and that wikipedia is not a publisher of personal opinion, of original research or even of the truth. This means that wikipedia is not "open to those who are by nature excluded from the universities" - as far as this means open to publish opinion and research that is not supported by established scholarship and science. It is also important to understand that decisions about what to include in articles and how to include it are made by [[|WP:CONSENSUS|consensus]] - and the way to influence consensus is by provide arguments backed by reliable sources. Untill you take this advice to heart and acts the part as well I am afraid you will find your experience at wikipedia dissapointing and maybe even exasperating.·Maunus·ƛ· 12:33, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Bellarmino (talk) 07:53, 1 May 2010 (UTC) You've stated your opinions now, and I presume based on your comment on mine, you did it to feel good. I certainly didn't. The difficulty with religious issues is precisely that the universities are dominated by rationalists - that is, people whose entire mindset is dominated by the dogma that supernatural events don't occur. Therefore, having excluded a priori all facts which support the historicity of supernatural events, they cast about for theories, no matter how irrational, that will serve as cover for their prejudice. This is how universities generally work, and if you're not familiar with it you evidently haven't spent time in one. I have. Now, the situation makes it very difficult, practically impossible, for scholarly work to be peer-reviewed and published if it violates the anti-supernatural dogma. This is all evident. In the present case we have a transparent example of the application of this violent prejudice. The denial of the reality of the Codex Escalada as soon as it was discovered and ever since by those whose theories it is incompatible with, and the refusal to take seriously anything published by Catholics who display "devotion" to the Apparition, make this clear. If a work is "devotional" it is a priori excluded from "reliability." If you could make the imaginative effort to see how you would feel if you examined the evidence and came to the conclusion that the Apparition was real, you would see that the belief in it has practical effects on a person. Devotion follows naturally from belief. This is not irrational, it is rational. One does not lose one's critical faculty by accepting a supernatural event as real. This is obvious to men of reason, but apparently not to you. I purchased "A Handbook on Guadalupe" recently to see what data it had about this matter and it is filled with perfectly credible factual statements concerning various scholars who investigated aspects of the Tilma and what they found. I have not bothered to type any of it into the Wikipedia article because I am presently convinced that it would be ruthlessly deleted as "not reliable." Newspaper articles about frauds who claim the Tilma is a painting or that it is not made of Agave fibres, despite having never examined the original, are permitted to stand. Entirely unsourced assertions are permitted to stand (e.g. the story concerning Leoncio Garza-Valdés). But they support "denial" and therefore comply with the anti-supernatural dogma. Why did the rigour you display against edits "favouring" the Apparition suddenly evaporate when considering such worthless material which favours your prejudices? Since you have stated that your standard of judgement concerning motives for writing here is whether or not it feels good, such blatant inconsistency is inevitable. There is manifestly nothing scientific about it.

We could do something useful here if we at least had some kind of consistent application of principle - even if it were the purported scientific rigour you claim to believe in. Perhaps you could start by editing the article to make it at least appear to fit that model, then we could see what's left and see where to go from there.

References section

What is this meant to be? If they are references, then they should be cited and we don't need this section. The external links should go in the external links section if they are references - but there are too many links already, this should be brought into line with WP:EL. WP:LAYOUT does allow a 'further reading' section. Dougweller (talk) 14:06, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

looks like a glorified external links section to me. ·Maunus·ƛ· 14:42, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

WTF???

One leaves this article for a while and suddenly all controversies and serious studies are removed. I cannot believe how zealous the followers of this myth can become! —Preceding unsigned comment added by IFeito (talk • contribs) 23:25, 28 June 2010 (UTC) Schicchi (talk) 23:27, 28 June 2010 (UTC)