Talk:Serbian language

Kosovo and Metohija is a part of Serbia

Kosovo and Metohija is a part of Serbia and there's no need to mention that Serbian is official in Kosovo. You have mention it is official in Serbia. If you want to separate it, then mention Republika Srpska and other parts of other states!

Serbian language is older than Serbo-Croatian

As you know, Serbo-Croatian is communist construction. It is well known that Croats adopted Serbian as literal language in 1850. by Vienna's agreement, so you can not mention that Serbian is dialect of Serbo-Croatian. Shame!!! And I have gone to page Croatian language. Why then there you hadn't mentioned that Croatian is a dialect of Serbo-Croatian? What are you doing in wikipedia???

The only problem is, that the notion of Serbo-Croatian predates Communist Yugoslavia by a century or thereabouts. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 15:11, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Vocabulary section

Hi, I was just wondering if anyone could edit the section on the vocabulary section, in particular the reference to the word "avlija". This is NOT a turkish word, but a Greek one. It entered Turkish as "avlu" from Greek "AVLE" (the E being the long Heta) and at the time of transmission pronounced as "i" as the "upsilon" after the initial "a" was pronouced as a bilabial fricative "V" as per the great vowel and consonant changes in Greek (see the Hellenestic Greek sound changes). The etymology means "courtyard" and the online etymology dictionary reference is here: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=curtain

or pasted as:

"1300, from O.Fr. cortine "curtain, tapestry, drape, blanket," from L.L. cortina "curtain," but in classical Latin "round vessel, cauldron," from L. cortem (older cohortem) "enclosure, courtyard" (see cohort). The confusion apparently begins in using cortina as a loan-translation for Gk. aulaia ("curtain") in the Vulgate (to render Heb. yeriah in Exodus xxvi:1, etc.) because the Greek word was connected to aule "court," perhaps because the "door" of a Greek house that led out to the courtyard was a hung cloth. The fig. sense in curtain call is from 1884. Curtains "the end" is 1912, originally from stage plays." NB: aule = courtyard. Garden would be Kepos.

The equivalent word in turkish for garden is "Bahçe". Whether or not the term entered into Turkish and transmitted by them or by the Greeks is a different story. What is important is that the word is etymologically Greek, just like many Persian words and Arabic words were transmitted to some European languages by the Turks who absorbed many different vocabularies for their daily use.

Thanks, Etymon. 128.250.254.122 (talk) 06:14, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

This was discussed at Talk:Serbian language/Archive 1#avlija. The compromise was to put a footnote -- which is still there, see note (15), about the ultimate Greek origin of the word. There are many other Arabic and Persian -- and, in this case, Greek -- loanwords in Turkish, but from Serbian perspective, it does not matter, as Turkish was the mediator and apparent origin. No such user (talk) 06:29, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I dont' agree with that perspective at all. Etymologically it is not turkic. You yourself said that "from Serbian perspective, it does not matter, as Turkish was the mediator and apparent origin (sic)". Two things are wrong with this sentence, 1.) that it doesn't matter i.e. if it didn't you should then revert to the correct etymology and 2.) the apparent origin? Are you kidding??? The only thing original is ... well I'm struggling to see anything original that came from the turkic language regarding this word's etymology as the -ia (in Serbian's case -ija) ending is a PIE feminine marker! So what you're saying that the turks were the mediators... have you a source for that? I think Greek peasants were using Avli before the Turks arrived (and no it's not from middle Greek but has been in existence for far far longer even with the sound change!) and if you can prove this happened at the time of the ottomans then by all means say they mediated it but for goodness' sake don't say they were the originators of that word. A footnote will NOT suffice and as a linguist I'm deeply offended... I would edit but I'm relying on good faith of more experienced editors! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.214.116.14 (talk) 10:49, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, I fail to see the big deal, but here you go. All that the text says about the issue is, quote, "some 30–50 years ago avlija (авлија < Turkish avlı[15]) was a common word for courtyard or backyard in Belgrade[...]". Here's a reference for the origin: [1]. So, BCS word is indeed a loan from Turkish word, and it is pretty much irrelevant (esp. for the considerations about Turkish loanwords) who Turks loaned it from. Despite that irrelevance, there's a footnote about the ultimate Greek origin. The suffix "-ija" is common BCS reflex for Turkish final "ı", compare e.g. čaršija < çarşı [2], which is of ultimately Persian origin, but I haven't seen many Iranians protest on the talk page. We also have a lot of Greek loans, especially in church and related terminology, but they were not the focus of the paragraph in question. So I don't see why would we enter into too much detail, except perhaps to select a different example to keep Greek editors happy. No such user (talk) 11:22, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

As per wikipedia (original research policy and sourcing non-primary sources or rather in this case nationalistic sources) - this pages you quoted is from Hrvstka i.e. a Croatian website. This does not qualify as sourceable material. If you can please find a better source of that transmission (not on a natinoalist website without accredited linguistic/sociologic or statistical data sets) then all I can say is you have to remove the entire word altogether. That way you're not offending linguists. Again, the transmission is not done by the turks given that they themselves utilise the word "Bahçe". You could say it was transmitted through Turkish speakers (this way they could have been Greek, Serbian-Slavic, Bulgarian, but I doubt very much so as Turkish).

Thanks again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.137.0.57 (talk) 11:37, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

HJP is the only online scientific etymological dictionary of Serbo-Croatian (see translated credentials), so it is the most convenient online source to quote. As a linguist, you certainly know that Serbian and Croatian share a large point of vocabulary, and this word is no exception (though it's rather archaic by now, except partly in Bosnia). Most of the Turkish loanwords did not enter BCS through modern Turkish, but through Ottoman Turkish language, which is characterized (among other things) by a larger number of non-Turkic loans. Avlija is most probably one of those. I certainly expect some WP:AGF on your side: we did not borrow the word directly from Greeks, one indirect proof being that it is most frequently used among Muslim Bosniaks, who generally keep the largest share of Turkisms. No such user (talk) 11:53, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

See also [3] quote: ‡ Od: I. avlija ‘1. dvor 2. ograda, yid okolu ku}ata’ od tur. avlı, avlu ‘dvor’ < gr~. aìl™ ‘dvor’;] or new Serbian Претраживач страних речи и изразa [авлија, -е ж, ген. мн. авлија [тур. avlı од нгрч. avlī од грч. [4] (limited preview). No such user (talk) 12:05, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Again not a valid source. Primary sources ONLY... this is conjecture and a Croatian site. The languages may be akin but Croatian and Serbian were different at that time (only under Tito did they merge to formulate one language). Different in the sense of who followed the Latinate or the Eastern/Greek rite. The fact that the Bosnians retained more foreign words lends credibility to the muli-ethnic nature of their words... Greek, Serbs, Croats and Turks all contributed. The point you are making is circular argumentation and not scholarly. I think you either state implicitly that it was inherited from Greek speech via the medium of Ottoman Turkish borderlessness thoughout the empire or you abrogate all ties to the etymology section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.137.0.57 (talk) 12:18, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Jesus Christ. I give up. Do you want me to perhaps perform a belly dance for you? No such user (talk) 13:53, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

It's borrowed from Ottoman Turkish per numerous etymological dictionaries of Serbo-Croatian (Skok, Škaljić, Gluhak..). Your "protest" is a result of nationalist frustration that there is a significant layer of Turkish borrowings in Serbo-Croatian (at least 8000 recorded lexical units) resulting from 5 centuries of political domination of Ottomans on the Balkans. Grow up. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 16:54, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Again this has nothing to do with nationalistic frustration other than the word's etymological rendering. Using circular argumentation from Serbo-Croatian (sic) sources of 30 years ago is not a credible source, given it's conjecture. Where is the reference that states implicitly the "turks" were the transmitors, and I don't mean a hypothetical rendering of the word "avlija" from "avlu" which is from the Greek speech in the region ("avli"). You're also forgetting that the trashumant population of the Vlachs (heavily influenced by Greek speech) were prob also speaking Turkish, Greek and Aromanian Vlach and were prob more responsible in the word's transmission. Political dominance of the Ottomans is a separate issue and has nothing to do with the word itself, unless you can prove beyound any reasonable doubt the Ottomans used "avlu" in the Middle Eastern provinces of Syria/Damascus and the rest of the Levant.