User talk:Vespine

420

Were you thinking of 420, and not 210? (Though, 420 is an ironic number if you really have been smoking something. O_o) - Rainwarrior 04:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Good pick up, wonder how many other people saw it! I thought I was pretty quick;) Vespine 21:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Cube of flesh

hey. The cube is to be sent into space to save the earth from being liquified and sucked out. Since it starts with a genocide i guess it is that kill 3 people to save 5 dilemna. - Keria 18:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

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Thank you, reposted at bottom of section. Vespine 00:31, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Present for Dad

I suspect your question may be removed because it's "not encyclopedic", so I thought I'd better respond here, instead. Does he like sports ? Get him tickets to a game. Does he like movies ? Take him to see one. Does he like to eat out ? Take him to a restaurant. StuRat 01:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Request for removal of RD comment

Hi, can you please see Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk#Lines_I_suggest_be_removed. If you would remove the lines in question, I would be appreciative. -- SCZenz 06:03, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I restored your comment after Admin:SCZenz deleted it, then User:Hipocrite deleted it again. StuRat 19:43, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Merry Christmas!

Happy Holidays from AndonicO!

Thank you, if you don't mind I have toned down your post here.
As I don't even know who you I think this is fair. Vespine 04:14, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I wonder...

...did you get your username from where I think you did? 68.39.174.238 08:33, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think so. People have asked me before if it is something to do with Bjork or Starwars, but it wasn't. I was interested in the latin names of animal classes or whatever it is called, you know, canine and feline and all those, so I made collected a big list of as many as I could find and vespine was my favourite so I've been using it as a user name.. What did you think it was from?

Simulator sickness

Thanks for the pointer. I was wondering what that was called.  :) --Brad Beattie (talk) 03:19, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Muslim extremists

I saw your comment on the reference desk, the one that turned into a major war. It sounds like you want to sympathise with Muslim people, but you are worried that dangerous extremists seem to be in power in many Muslim countries. I found that my understanding of the situation in Iraq has greatly deepened by reading Iraqi blogs, like the well-known Riverbend, Konfused Kid, a college student and heavy metal guitarist, and Sunshine, a 14-year-old girl. It's reassuring to know that despite the despicable extremists you hear about on the news, many Muslims are people like you and me who hate terrorism and want peace. --Grace 20:51, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for those links, I'll definitely have a look through them. I'm not sure I've had an issue sympathysing with 'the plight of the people', I know there are millions of innocents in the middle east all living lives doing the right thing, looking after their families and just trying to get by, I haven't had a problem with that. I guess my issue is the opression in my motherland was caused by the communists, it's a little more cut and dry. Yes there are noble and ideological communists that think communism is really the best system of government, but we've pretty much proven now that it is not and in a nutshell that commies are bad, leads to opression, inequality, secret police, etc... But in this case, several prominent Muslim leaders are evil manipulative vengful inhumane monsters but there are still millions who also call themselves muslims. Of course, there are people of every faith who are (for the sake of this conversation) 'evil', but they aren't openly so and in power. Anyway, the way I'm going is just making it more and more obvious that it isn't clear in my head anymore about my attitude towards the region. I've got more thinking to do before I can really keep discussing this. Vespine 21:35, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

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Python "Most Common Word" Programme

Hi there I read that you've written a word counter as your first programme on reference desk. I am trying to learn python is well but can't really think of a purpose for one and I would like to see the source code of your programme as I am quite interested in it. --antilived^{T | C | G} 10:37, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I use IDLE from http://python.org/idle/. The program is below heavily commented:

The caveat is the input text file needs to be very clean, one word per line and no punctuation. I found that NOT too hard to do using a combination of notepad and MS Word. Also, this means it isn't 100% accurate, especially with words that have ' like isn't and hasn't.The input is a file named text.txt in the same folder as the program, the output is a file called orderedlist.txt in the same folder. This was all really obvious to me but obviously may not be to you, feel free to ask if anything needs explaining. You'll need to paste this into a text file and rename it to a *.py file. Lines that start with a # are comments and are not necessary for the code to work. If you can't figure out how to do it, let me know what the text is you are trying to analyse and I'll run it for you. Vespine 00:40, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

# This program takes a file (text.txt) and counts how many times each word appears.
# The text file has to be formatted so each word appeard on a new line,
# with no formatting, capitilsation, punctuation, etc.
# This isn't too hard to do with word/notepad using the 'replace' tool.

# It writes the results, in order of frequency to a file (orederedlist.txt).

# I used it on Mary Shelly's Frankenstein,
# total words = 75352
# total unique words = 7278
# most used 3 words = 4191-the 2974-and 2850-i

# And the results are VERY quick, about one second to complete, so I'm very happy.

# Manualy creating the word list from the complete text took way more time:)

# Programmer comments are indented like this.
# Testing/debugging code is commented out without indent, like the below.
# This was my very 1st python program so it took some debugging to get working properly.

#print "text file word counter"

# It is not recommended to uncomment debug code for large word list (>50) files.

#---------------#
#-----START-----#

# create lists

list = []
numlist = []

# append every line in text file into a list called 'list'.

in_file = open("text.txt","r")
for line in in_file.read().split('\n'):
list.append(line)
in_file.close()

# print total number of words in list/file to screen.
print "total words = ",len(list)

# create variable total_words
total_words = len(list)

list.sort()

# first debug code is below, uncommenting these using large lists is not recommended.
#print list

checking_word = 0
previous_word = checking_word - 1

while checking_word <= total_words - 1:
#print "checking word", '"',list[checking_word],'"', checking_word ,"of" ,total_words

# reset count for each word.
count = 0
next_word = checking_word + 1

# counting routine loop
# This section only counts words that are actually repeated.
if list[checking_word] == list[next_word]:
# I realise now the above 'if' may be redundant, but it works so...
while list[checking_word] == list[next_word]:
count = count + 1
checking_word = checking_word +1

#print "counting -",count

# The below appends a final entry to the list after all items are counted.
# just so the counting routine doesn't crash.
if checking_word + count == total_words:
#print "total reached"
list.append("end")

# This line was debug code.
if list[checking_word] != list[next_word]:

# had to add something for the next line so that the program
# would not expect another indented line.
comment = 1
#print "check end"
#print

# Uncomment the below to see resulsts print live to screen.
# Again, not recommended for large lists.
#print "result" ,list[checking_word - 1], count

entry = count ,list[checking_word - 1]
#print "entry",entry

# This adds the 'result' into the second list "numlist".
numlist.append(entry)

# More debug code
#print "list update" ,numlist
if list[checking_word] != list[next_word]:
comment = 1
#print "LOOP FINISH"
#print

# This section adds words to the list even if they are not repeated.
elif list[checking_word] != list[next_word] and list[checking_word] != list[previous_word]:


#print list[checking_word] ,1
entry = 1 ,list[checking_word]
#print "result" ,list[checking_word], 1
#print "single entry",entry
numlist.append(entry)
checking_word = checking_word +1
#print "list update",numlist
#print

else:
#print checking_word
checking_word = checking_word +1

# Message that counting and listing has completed.
print "numlist created"

print
numlist.sort()
print "total unique words =" ,len(numlist)
print
#print numlist

# Finally the output phase.
out_file = open("orederedlist.txt","w")

for line in numlist:
t = line
#print t
# the below turns the numlist output (tuple) into a string
# so that it can be written into the file.
line_str = ' '.join([str(e) for e in t])
#print "string" ,line_str
out_file.write(line_str)
out_file.write("\n")

out_file.close()

print "complete"


Your pretty cool

I did a quick check on some of your stuff and well you seem pretty cool =) well hope to see ya out on the wiki pagesMaverick423 16:58, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Mum? Is that you?? I told you to stay off my user page! ;) Thanks, that's nice of you to not only say, but be bothered to write:) See you around. Vespine 01:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Apology accepted

Threading can be highly complex at times, hence my bewilderment rather than screaming and yelling at you :). Actually there are very few human conditions that make the person abnormal, it's a highly pejorative word. even a 1% sample of the population having a particular state is normality, it is just not majority. This normal spectrum includes ailments like Sickle Cell Anaemia which give immunity to Malaria, but cause other unpleasant effects.

GLBT folk are stuck with their orientation and other issues in the same way that heterosexual people are stuck with their orientation and other issues. I suppose one could say "Except in the US Bible Belt", though. Fiddle Faddle 17:01, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Fiddle:) Umm, I'm not sure if we're still understanding eachother here, did you read my other posts to that thread?? I was on your side from the start, I was arguing with the OP who used normal as the antonym for gay, yeah? That was me that started the argument;) Anyway, it's all good, and I didn't know SCA gave immunity to Malaria, that's interesting:) Have a great one, and thanks for clearing that up without going nuts at me.:) Vespine 21:14, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I must admit I got wholly lost in that thread, and I suspect a good many other people did too. Whoever started that thread had a slight odour of troll about them I thought. I never go nuts. Life is too short :) Fiddle Faddle 01:23, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Reference desk comments:

Although I suspect it is good natured, your excessive crude & profane language at the reference desk would be unacceptable on another's talk page & could be generally be considered rude to other users, especially newbies who come to the reference desk for help. It would be appreciated if you could "tone it down" a little, as your replies are a great asset to the wikipedia community & it would be a shame if they were tainted by crude language. In my experience, swearing is only used if the person cannot find another suitable word to express their feelings & swearing can almost always be avoided to express a point of view. I hope you will take my advice & continue contributing to the reference desk... :) Spawn Man 04:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I know you are right, but I only used the word dick which was already used by the OP, I was using it in a way to tease the OP about his use of profanity... Oh yeah, and there was a "fck" in one of my posts too, I suppose that's not necessary.. Ok, no, fair enough, you are right, I don't think I've had enough coffee today, I don't usually dwell that low... Thanks for the polite way you approached this... Vespine 04:37, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I found the msg a little poor-taste, but that was more than offset by the fact that you refrained from making any of the more obvious "pussy" jokes. DMacks 05:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for taking it so well Vespine... If only I was an admin my powers may be used for good & not eviiill!!! ;) Spawn Man 05:25, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Re: Melbourne Street artists.

Hey Vespine, thanks for then interest. I actually live in Canberra, but do a lot of work on Melbourne street art articles. I'm sorry I can't help you, you can ask at Wikipedia:WikiProject Melbourne though. Good work so far, cheers, Dfrg.msc 05:05, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Blocked from editing

You have been blocked from editing. 202.2.57.110 (an account, IP address or range of addresses) was blocked by Can't sleep, clown will eat me for the following reason (see our blocking policy):

Poo! autoblocked because of an IP range... That's balls. Vespine 22:32, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Yay:) thanks! Vespine 01:01, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Contribution removed from the Reference Desk

Content you recently added to the the Reference Desk has been removed. Please remember the Wikipedia content must be written from a neutral point of view, the threshold for inclusion is verifiability, original research should be avoided and that the Reference Desk is not a soapbox, a social networking site, or a discussion forum. If you would like to discuss the removal of this content, please comment at the Reference Desk talk page.

Stupid templates. I pulled the question because it was asking for a prognosis. Your reply got caught in the net, too. Just a heads-up that it happened. No big deal. --Milkbreath 13:33, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Random fun fact

In regard to your comment on the Science Reference desk, a cool fact is that corn can actually get up to 97% of its mass from the air! ~ Amory (user • talk • contribs) 01:14, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Reference desk

I have no idea what the above means or why it is commented out.. or who wrote it since four ~'s don't seem to be changed into a signiature if they are commented out. I have put what it says in the box below. Vespine (talk) 23:36, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but then we'd have to tell him that magnification makes the image dimmer x^2, 
and the inverse square law gets even worse at high z's, but not for the detailed, 
near galaxies. First we're multiplying and then we're dividing, we should at least 
try to keep the number of zeros on the page approximately correct :-) 

Thanks

Thank you for working with the Robbie Mannheim article. It looks like arbitration is going smoothly and the other editor is listening. Cheers. -Craig Pemberton 07:00, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Death

I noticed your input on Science reference desk#Death, and you said that science has proved religion wrong many times in the past. That, in fact, is one mark of a false religion. It is contradicted by science. True religion and science complement each other, not contradict. If they contradict, it can be proven that the science has to be revised. Just like when religion said that the earth was flat. The Bible actually says that it was round. People proved it using science later. Science always complements true religion. I would like to see some of those contradictions and see if I can explain them. --Chemicalinterest (talk) 00:51, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Sorry I wasn't signed in before.. I don't really understand what you are getting at. Who decides what is "true religion" ? How do you access or interpret this "true religion"? You quote the Bible, is that the source of "true religion"? The problem I have with religion is that it really never states anything useful. All it does is offer people a platform to push their agendas through a selective interpretation of whatever texts they treat as holy, in general the vast majority of people are credulous enough not to challenge their interpretation. However if a view held by the religious "consensus" (if it can be called that) is challenged beyond doubt, (and it's beyond the point where you can just burn the opponents at the stake, or behead them) they just sidestep the issue and offer a different interpretation, oh our "religion" wasn't wrong, we just didn't interpret it properly. All the while holding all the other "still unchallenged" dogmas as perfect interpretations of "absolute truth", until their turn comes.. Sure it's easy now to sidestep "oh but the bible actually says the world is round", how do you sidestep "God created Adam and Eve and they had a conversation with a snake in the garden of Eden near the beginning of creation?". Let me guess: "it's allegory"? Well if the world really WAS flat and the Bible says it's round, we'd be getting told right now that this too is allegory. So I don't doubt for a second that you could justify away any discrepancy between your "true" religion and science, but I bet you'll be jumping though hoops to do it. Unless you are a deist or pantheist or something.. Vespine (talk) 01:30, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

But what makes a snake unable to talk? Even evolution contends that things were different long ago. Is that considered a miracle that things changed spontaneously?

One hallmark is that true religion never contradicts science. If they do not agree, it is because man's understanding of the natural world has not progressed to the level where he understands it. --Chemicalinterest (talk) 11:11, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

From your user page: "I believe in the literal seven-day creation of the universe by God" are you for real or is that a joke? Sorry, nothing personal, but if you're serious I really can't be bothered having this discussion, it's a waste of both our time. Have a nice day. Vespine (talk) 11:50, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

I came across this while scanning through Chemicalinterest's edit history. See discussion on the RefDesk talk page. Nimur (talk) 15:45, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Robbie Needs You

Would you mind hopping over to the Robbie Mannheim page and reviewing the talk posts there?75.21.101.124 (talk) 16:49, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

That Robbie Mannheim page is a mess, and I agree with what you say about this article 100%. Without discarding some of the good citations, slash-and-burn really is the way. We can of course put in sources that address only what needs addressing. Main thing is putting quotes in-text and not in the notes or bibliography. No one will thank you for that, and I've developed migraines just trying to clean up the atrocious grammar and lousy writing. The structure is not even there yet.75.21.151.34 (talk) 12:28, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

The Proposal for Robbie Mannheim

Vespine, I think it might help if I presented to you the bare bones of this boy's story. It would help the outlining of this thing.

First, you will forgive me for not throwing in citations. All of this, unless I indicate it, comes from Father Walt Halloran. I will only paraphrase what he said because he is so terse it's close enough. remember, this is for your reference only.

1. We have "Robbie" and what is commonly alleged about him and his background, all strictly from early newspaper reports in Maryland and from Thomas Allen's research. I do not believe Blatty is reliable as he stands now. The rest is URBAN LEGEND and falsehoods.

2. Fr. Halloran said Father William Bowdern asked him for a ride. This occurred in St. Louis, and I have no clear picture of the boy's family moving or any other such detail. I'm not sure where Halloran and Bowdern went, but it seems they went to a home, so I'd guess Halloran is implying the family had moved to St. Louis.

3. Halloran had no idea what they were doing, and thought he was just dropping off Bowdern. Arriving at the house, Bowdern told Halloran, "You're coming with me...I need you." They went in and saw the boy with the parents. They chatted and had coffee.

4. Halloran says Bowdern stood up suddenly. Bowdern said something like, "Its time", or, "Let's get to it." Halloran was still in the dark. The boy and two clerics went to the boy's room. The boy changed into his pajamas and got in the bed. It was then Bowdern told Halloran it was an exorcism. Halloran was still confused at this point.

5. Halloran never believed the boy was possessed, and never saw or heard anything supernatural. Halloran says somehow the bed moved a little, and he attested to the boy's spitting in their faces, which angered him. He did not like that boy. Halloran said a bottle of holy water flew right past his head and broke against the wall. But he also admits "someone could have thrown it, but I didn't see it."

6. The kid thrashed around, yelled and parroted the priests' Latin prayers. That is IT. Fr. Bowdern proceeded with the Rite of Exorcism.

7. Halloran attests that Bowdern went to the cardinal--maybe Spellman, maybe one other I cannot recall and Halloran doesn't say--Bowdern said the boy was possessed and the cardinal gave permission for a Rite of Exorcism. When Bowdern inquired further the cardinal said Bowdern would be the exorcist.

When he asked the cardinal why, the cardinal said, "Well, you brought it up! You do it!"

The rest of the details, such as the family's movements and other activates, is something like this: they moved from Maryland to St. Louis apparently because Bowdern told them to do it. This was after he was appointed officially as Exorcist. There Halloran met them for the 1st time.

The priests spent much time with Robbie, but mainly due to the fact that Bowdern was attempting to convert first the boy then the parents. Halloran says he succeeded and converted all three to Catholicism. They were Lutherans, very lax and not church people before the ordeal.

That is it. I'm sorry I put this so long, but that is all--aside from further details from Fr. Walt that I don't have in front of me. This is how certain insiders were told the story and Fr. Walt confirms all of it. Anything else is as you said pure ghost stories.

I hope this helps. Of course this is also on the ROBBIE MANNHEIM talk page, because I do not want to be the editor to slash-and-burn that work.75.21.158.216 (talk) 13:38, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

the webcam and astrophotography

hello, thank you for answering my question. i opened the website which you has gave me its url, but i couldn`t find the "log" button! i found just a "log in", i searched for some minutes but i couldn`t find a way to log in the forums! can you tell me please how i can log? thanks --Abbad Dira (talk) 11:28, 27 June 2010 (UTC).

Hi. Sorry I'm not sure what you mean, if you found "log in" that means log in the forums. Did you see this page = http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/index.php ? You can read all the forums without logging in, if you want to log in you have to register first on this page http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/register.php . Hope that helps. Vespine (talk) 12:37, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

MMS talk page entry

Your MMS article talk page entries--Explanations to your questions may be found by doing some searches on Google involving depopulation and inserting the names of one or more philanthropists such as Gates or Rockefeller (or others). Another search is theAntiTerrorist YouTube. Specifically on that look for: Corporate Revenue Collection. Another search: Rockefeller Rothschild Farben. Oldspammer (talk) 23:15, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry you must have me confused for someone else, I have no questions regarding MMS, nothing about MMS or Jim Humble is unclear to me. Quote all the conspiracy theories you like, even if you could prove that they are all true and there is a big pharma depopulation conspiracy, that actually has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Jim Humble is a total fraud and the claims he makes about the "miracle" properties of MMS are completely made up lies. Those two things are by no means mutually exclusive. Jim claims that MMS has cured 100,000 people of malaria in Africa, he also claims that MMS cures AIDS, do you honestly believe either of these claims? It's blatant fraud. Vespine (talk) 05:54, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I clicked on your signature-talk on that talk page and landed here. Where does it say that "Jim Humble must have lied?" There may be conspiracies, but maybe it's just business, and in that alone explains why no gov agencies anywhere want to hurt their friend's income streams by demonstrating any useful applications not already attributed to MMS / the chemicals involved. Oldspammer (talk) 23:09, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Robbie Mannheim problems again

Vespine, I have a major problem with the Robbie Mannheim entry as you know. Can you not step in and assist here? Read my post in full:

The following is what I posted at the talk page:

Quote: "Spiritualists, however, did not heed the biblical admonitions against consorting with spirits. She therefore, introduced Robbie to the Ouija board when he expressed interest in it.[15]Nonetheless, Robbie was your average boy - he played, read comic books, and listened to the radio.[16]"

Is this quote intelligent, or does it even contribute to the article? NO to each. Spiritualism does not need to be beaten to death here...anyone can look up what a Spiritualist believes...it is a legitimate religion that believes in communication with the dead. As far ignoring Biblical admonitions, how many times do I have to strike this passage before someone agrees with me? It's childish, stupid and adds nothing to the notability of this boy.75.21.146.222 (talk) 14:45, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Do you think that stupid passage deserves to stay in the article? I fixed up the grammar and someone reverted or rewrote a lot of it. I'm sick of being trampled like that when no one addresses me directly at the talk page. This editor Anuparm or whatever he calls himself is causing a lot of trouble with his junior high mentality.75.21.146.222 (talk) 14:49, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I posted the following at the talk page of admin Courcelles, regarding Anupam:

You granted user Anupam reviewer's rights. His disruptions/lack of cooperation at talk:Robbie Mannheim as well as to the article itself ought to be enough to remove these rights, and I see his probationary period is done as of two days ago. User Anupam has already been abusing his editor's rights as it is.

May I remind you: "The process of reviewing is intended as a quick check to make reasonably sure edits don't contain vandalism, violations of the policy on living people, or other obviously inappropriate content. Reviewers are users sufficiently experienced who are granted the ability to accept other users' edits. They are expected to have a reasonable editing history, know what is and what is not vandalism, and be familiar with basic content policies. Reviewer rights are granted by administrators. The permission is removed at the request of the user, the community, or the arbitration committee." From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Pending_changes#Reviewing retrieved on 17 August 2010.

I am copying this to the main editor working on Mannheim, user Vespine.75.21.146.222 (talk) 15:01, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Courcelles" Well, I hope this gets Anupam to lighten up, and stop reverting or basically vandalizing others' contributions. I'm not accusing him outright of pure vandalism, but if he keeps messing with this article's improvements, vandalism is what it will amount to being.75.21.146.222 (talk) 15:04, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Robbie Solution

Vespine--just a note to tell you what I think must be done with that article. Firstly, I don't think you should be so hasty about the use of "Evil: Satan, Sin, and Psychology" as a source. It is reliable and verifiable, and the author addresses the case of this boy. You have to stop with the animosity against Ph.D.s. Most sources and reference are produced by them! Because you see, if you don't want experts used as citations and you don't like the storybooks (no one does except Anupam)...well, then what is left to use as citations??

Now: what needs to be done is good old pencil-and-paper layout work. The article needs to be fleshed out, what will be in and what won't be in, how far do we want to go with citations, and how long the bibliography should be. All done on paper for reference and structure.

Next I still say we make Anupam do this. Anupam has put long hours of work into this thing, I agree, and knows the citation structure better than anyone. I could do it, but I don't have access to the newer citations that bear on the subject. He should do it. And he needs a grammar babysitter, because he can't write to save his life.

Somehow (I can't do this to save my life) the draft should be presented in the "sandbox" so all can view it including any admin who wants to butt into the thing. Then it can be published. This article does not need to be presented as a scientific paper, yet Wikipedia rules have become so absurd that it does, indeed, have to resemble a paper in order to pass muster.

Any admin coming along and seeing one little thing out of place, and KABOOM!!--the article's gone.75.21.153.99 (talk) 14:35, 19 August 2010 (UTC) Hi look thanks, I know this isn't easy, but unfortunately I think I disagree with a few of your suggestions… Like I said, I'm willing to discuss the use of the "Evil" book once we work out specific citations, but I think you should understand the reason why I oppose it, it is certainly NOT just because people who wrote it have Ph.D. The only reason I reiterated that I don't care about Ph.D.s is because it was the only argument Anupam used in its defence.

and the author addresses the case of this boy the fact is, the author addresses some of the CLAIMS surrounding this boy. THAT is my main problem with the source. What are the sources that the authors used? From the few quotes in the book it seems likely that the authors used some equally terrible sources about the claims regarding this case. If they used rubbish sources, then runnish in rubbish out right? Regardless, only the one section really uses this source so I find it less important then the 1st three.

As for well, then what is left to use as citations?? I'm struggling to understand. If there are not enough realiable sources, then the article simply has less information in it. You don't start using story books to "pad it out" which is exaclty what Anupam has been doing. If the article needs to be half as long to be more accurate and NPOV then that's what the article needs.

Next I still say we make Anupam do this. I disagree with this too.. I know he has put in a lot of work, even since this article was tagged as a problem article, half of Anupam's edits are still in the wrong direction. I really don't mean any offence but I don't think Anupam really understands what a reliable source or NPOV really mean.

the draft should be presented in the "sandbox".. I have tried to do this actually more then once, but the article is such a mess I ended up giving up each time. Those MASSIVE ref links make it really hard to keep track of where you are in the article and most times I'll end up accidentally moving something or deleting something and it breaks the reference link, at that stage I usually just cancel the edit in frustration, but you can see at least 2 broken ref links (14 and 15) in the article right now.. Vespine (talk) 22:56, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

++++++++++amen++++++++++ Hi Vespine--first I hope you've looked at the latest work I've done right to the article. I think it's a good start but I did not get to all of what I had wished to do.

Your point is well taken on the book...we can leave it aside for now as you say. Now, I agree, you and I are thinking just alike because I do not believe in padding it out either. It is stupid to put citations that just tell stories and are not direct. What I meant to convey to you is that we have basically only Thomas Allen as a source, because the Church will never divulge a thing and Father Walt does not like to talk this subject these days.

The reason I say we stick to a little bit of the "claims" about it is because that is all there is. I don't say be dishonest: I say use the popular claims as long as they are simple and we identify them as mere unverified anecdotal reports.

You are right about Anupam, please see my reply posted at the talk page...and I will defer to your good suggestion that I stop with the new threads. I am hard to read ;)

I quote you: "Those MASSIVE ref links make it really hard to keep track of where you are in the article and most times I'll end up accidentally moving something or deleting something and it breaks the reference link, at that stage I usually just cancel the edit in frustration, but you can see at least 2 broken ref links (14 and 15) in the article right now..."

Yes, me too, and I may be the idiot who broke some links yesterday--that thing is a garbage pile, but did you see my post on the talk page? You and I are 100% agreed that format has to go before we can redo this thing. If we start working on it from whatever angle, I don't think anyone will care.

And lastly, what is this Christian Portal nonsense?? Don't you think they've made this task unnerving by putting that on the article? What does exorcism have to do with Christianity in the way they want it to? Every culture has exorcism! Jesus!!75.21.153.99 (talk) 13:20, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Without changin anything else, I have introduced a new section 1: Popular Unverified Anecdotal Reports. This is a sort of disclaimer which says the whole rest of the article is ultimately urban legend. It is clear and academic, and I hope the one citation will be enough. Take a look. At least this way we can state what little is on the 'official record', as confirmed by Fr. Halloran. The rest is grain-of-salt but it is well-known and popular. We just come out and say that. Oh, I hope I just saved us from a total overhaul of the thing. Maybe later we can explain why we left all that in there if it is unverified. Because it is popularly known, and people should know it's inaccurate?76.195.82.134 (talk) 13:18, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

TROUBLE: Vespine, look at what that clown Anupam posted at the talk for Robbie:

"The "scriptural admonitions" statement is important, especially when considering the Christian perspective because according to that point of view, the failure to heed Scriptural admonitions resulted in diabolic possession. I hope you will see why I feel that line is important. However, I am open to discussing it further. With regards, AnupamTalk 17:32, 22 August 2010 (UTC)"

A bit further down:

"The addition of that new section is not needed because it is explained in the Origin of Claims section. I also reversed the removal of the "scriptural admonitions" statement and explained why here. I have also restored the removal of the "See also" section and have restored the references for the "Literature and film" section. Vespine, it seems that you have issues with the "Psychiatric considerations" section. I will not touch that section for now. If you would like to rewrite it, I would be more than happy to see your proposed version of the section. I hope this helps. Thanks, AnupamTalk 17:46, 22 August 2010 (UTC)"

Do you see what he's doing? Taking it over for himself, insisting he see any revisions before they get passed. You've got to step in Vespine, and break this me-only concensus Anupam is trying to create here. I've seen it happen too often elsewhere. I'm not going to do a damned thing further there if he keeps up this friggin' reversion of his POV!!76.195.82.134 (talk) 12:20, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Unconstructive edit alert

Vespine, [[1]] this admin has reverted a post I made under an older topic on the Robbie talk page. Better watch out when you edit there from now on...unless you did it, and I'm NOT accusing you, I think Anupam is behind it. He's trying to own that whole thing, talk page and all.

Also: sorry, but I am starting new topics whenever I have a new topic to discuss. Sorry, I'm not going to risk getting my posts deleted because of whatever dumb reason under old postsed topics. From now on I think we ought to agree to pursue a topic only a certain ways, then start a new heading. That is what I'm doing. And now, a vacation for me. Good luck.76.195.82.134 (talk) 14:33, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

What a to-do. I can't even glance at this thing without a fight starting. Anupam is not quite the villain I said he was...it was a busybody admin chasing down the Big Red Flag they have on my IP range. In the bargain it seems Anupam is all hurt that I have insulted his (?) honor. Yet he still sees fit to lecture me about what and how to post. Hope he doesn't do that to you. Official vacation time starts NOW.75.21.152.167 (talk) 20:50, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Vespine, where the heck are you?? I've been fighting the good fight at Robbie Mannheim all alone, and Anupam has possessed that article! If you're through, would you at least notify everyone at the talk page? Hope not! We need you.75.21.119.97 (talk) 17:23, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Hey sorry! I am still here, i've been keeping an eye on the proceedings but I just haven't had time to get my hands dirty again. I'll try to set aside some time in the next few days.. Vespine (talk) 00:07, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank heavens. Glad to know you're monitoring. Well, I'm doing cleanup over there and I think it's looking good--but I made some errors like you have done in the past. I did not mean to leave "cited" text without the citation or ref. You notice Anupam is letting me make a fool of myself at the talk page by refusing to reply...but he digs in and reverts my changes. Does this dump still have the "3R" law? Anupam is basically vandalizing that page now, because you and I have reached agreement on the article but he refuses discussion or to allow changes. We'll see about that. If he keeps it up, I am going to bring in an admin to fix this properly and finally.75.21.154.247 (talk) 19:12, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes i was considering putting a RFC or something on the page but thought it was probably not a good idea when i don't have a lot of time to put in at the moment. I might be able to get an evening in this week to put some time into it. Cheers. Vespine (talk) 22:52, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

You may or may not answer this as you see fit, Vespine: I'd like to know how the NPOVD banner got atop the article. Was it you or Anupam? If you, I'd like you to read it over and tell me what you think as soon as you can, because I think I've got it in as good a shape as we'll ever see it. If Anupam did this, you and I have reached a consensus enough to get that thing removed. I believe it is simply stonewalling the project where it is. But...I see you are busy and I don't blame you distancing yourself from this project. I too plan on moving from it for good. In future people will come and wreck it all over again. Alastair...I wish he'd be able to help, but I saw he got permanently banned here. Typical. By the bye, I'm not Alastair!75.21.154.247 (talk) 03:47, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Vespine, the RfC is done. Posted on the talk page and I planted a prominent request on the Christianity project page thing where I was instructed to put it. No one is going to help though. Anupam will just continue to change it until he's banned.75.21.154.247 (talk) 04:22, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I can't remember who put NPOV there, it wasn’t anupam, it might have been me or someone before me. I strongly disagree that the NPOV banner should be removed yet, specifically relating to the issues concerning Wikipedia:Verifiability . I still strongly oppose the use of the sources I've brought into question multiple times already there. I would not remove the banner (or replace it with a reference specific one) until those sources are totally expunged from the article. It seems to me that the main argument opposing this position seems to be "but it makes a good story" and "there won't be much left" which IMHO is not an relevant argument at all. If there are not enough REAL sources on the subject, then there's not enough REAL sources on the subject, doesn't mean you can start using story books to "pad it out". These sources are credulously presenting their own opinions and fantasies as facts, I do not believe it is appropriate that they be reinterpreted to "pad out" an article. Vespine (talk) 05:31, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Vespine, I responded 100% in favor at the talk page. You are right, as I said all along, and I'm so glad you're taking this decision and the initiative to get those padded sources out of there. What a nightmare you have to face! I'd be glad to help with structure, grammar and presentation if you will allow. Just let me know.

You feel passionately about this as I do, I can see that. If you want to leave the banner up there, I'll support that--but I don't think it needs to be there when two active editors agree about what to remove from the article, etc. What I don't understand is why no one is coming to assist, and why the RfC I placed at the talk page--per instructions--got removed only minutes after I put it there. I know they take it away when they get to it, but someone took it away sooner. Was it you? I don't think it was you.

As I say, you have my support to keep the banner up there about contentious sources, but I do not think we need it. It would be to Anupam's detriment if he messed with our hard work, as you know I have been chiseling away at that thing to whip it into shape for the last month or so.75.21.105.150 (talk) 22:44, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Vespine, what do you think of proposing the article for deletion? See the talk page, ok? Think it through before you answer.75.21.105.150 (talk) 06:47, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Knock someone out with a blow to the head

Hi Vespine, you made a very sound edit on the Science Reference Desk, beginning That last answer is a bit creepy dude! I think both of those answers are not very appropriate..

I agree with you and I have deleted the offending answer.

Seeing your posting now refers to an invisible answer you might want to adjust your answer by removing mention of the last answer. Cheers! Dolphin (t) 00:27, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I actually do not agree with deleting anything, even bad answers. If it were up to me I would at most strike them out. Not only because it avoids people having to go back and edit their replies like me, but to me it seems like censorship. It punishes people for being wrong which I don't think is the right thing to do, it doesn't give them feedback. You should let those people into the discussion and openly explain why their view is inappropriate.. Vespine (talk) 01:12, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your prompt response. I agree that incorrect answers should not be tampered with, and I generally agree that bad answers should not be tampered with. I am not in favour of censorship. In my view Jon Ascton's answer constituted advice about how to commit a crime. He probably intended it as a joke, but any intended humour was not evident to the reader.

I think advice about how to commit a crime should be erased from Wikipedia. It should not simply be struck out. I wrote to Jon explaining why I erased his answer. See HERE. Cheers! Dolphin (t) 02:14, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Re: astrophotography

Thanks, I think I might check it out. BTW, that was a mistake I wrote on my talk page. I was actually only gone three days. Cheers, --The High Fin Sperm Whale 01:28, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Mannheim steamroller

Just wanted you to know I am working my buns off, cleaning up and getting that into shape Robbie_Mannheim. Even though I still argue that we either merge it or delete it. It is looking better, and I've mastered the art of reading through that muck. No more red-flag notices, and the trimming is going good. Now, may I kindly ask that you come over and do some work? Also, would you add the RfC tag to the top of the talk page? Maybe they won't highjack the thing if you place it there. I even referred this over to the Chrisitanity Portal thing. ;)75.21.105.150 (talk) 21:26, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Vespine. The proposal sounds excellent and I think you have just invented a precedent. WHY don't the admins come lookin'? I wish they could see the way you worked through this and basically saved the article. Me, just along for the ride. :)75.21.105.150 (talk) 01:22, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Vespine, see the Mannheim talk page...Anupam is reverting again and simply informing us he's done it on the page. He has NO RIGHT to do that and I can tell he's pissed at me. Because of my IP, I'm tagged. Vespine, can you report him for vandalsim? It's high time, and I cannot do it. The admins consider anything from my IP range to automatically be vandalism. Anupam already knows I stand no chance against him. If you do it you'll be doing a big favor to this project. Please help and try not to disappear for so many days at a time.75.21.105.150 (talk) 00:20, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Vespine, sorry, I have one procedural favor more to ask: can you see what changes I had made Robbie_Mannheim before Anupam reverted them? He had a BIG problem with my changing of section headings, and I did do it without running it by you. If you agree with his viewpoint, I'll leave it alone, but he's vandalizing that page and I know he's been in trouble for this behavior a lot, on other articles.75.21.105.150 (talk) 00:26, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Vespine!....Quoth Anupam: "I reverted your edits because they do not follow the Manual of Style. The word "alleged" is mentioned multiple times in the articles. It does not need to be mentioned in the headings. Also, please do not remove sources without discussing it first. Before removing the source, at least consult User:Vespine to see if it is necessary. You are whimsically removing different parts of the article without discussion. I hope this helps. With regards, AnupamTalk 00:56, 4 September 2010 (UTC)" When are YOU going to step in and actually say something and do something? We have a chance to get rid of Anupam if he does not start behaving like an editor...also I find he is abusing the position he was given as a reviewer. I guess I ought to be thankful that he's not messing with the major changes, but as I warned you long ago, he's just going to swoop in later and revert it all again anyway. This is your fight Vespine. I'll observe and do nothing, for a change.76.195.83.144 (talk) 05:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

You know what? This project is YOURS. It is too much for me, juggling you and Anupam. You people are more concerned about posting in a civil manner--oh Vespine, I see you are not always as civil as you pretend, so why can't we stop pretending? Anyway, I apologize for giving wrong impressions to you. Also, I did not ever mean to offend you regarding Anupam.

I've seconded your proposal. Good luck. Anupam is possessed by this article and he'll see to it that you get chased off, as I feel I have been...by both of you. Well, you've seen the back of me. Hope you are happy.76.195.86.155 (talk) 23:58, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Vespine, I'm sorry. Out of line and unchivalric of me to post the above, I regret it.76.195.86.155 (talk) 05:43, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Don't worry about it, I didn't take it presonally. Believe me I know it can be frustrating, and you are right that I've not remained entirely 100% civil through the whole process either, but I try not to take it personally, you can still be passionate and not take it personally, I think that's important if you want to stay sane around here. P.s. I'm not "lecturing". ;) Vespine (talk) 05:50, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Let us not argue any more about writing abilities or lack thereof. Dude, you really have to stop taking things personally, i'm getting tired of explaining my self. I never accused ANYONE of lacking writing ability, i said NONE OF US ARE BRILLIANT WRITERS! If we were THIS ARTICLE WOULD ALREADY BE BRILLIANT! It is NOT brilliant, hence we're NOT brillant writers, ok? This is more of a comment about Wikipedia in general, it is certainly NOT aimed specifically at YOU! Even more so if you are a published author! being a "good author" and being a "brilliant writer" on wikipedia are two very different things, Get over it. Same thing with your "done properly" comment, maybe you didn't read or understand my reply regarding that. I said: I thought that's what we've been trying to do. Your comment "done properly" is as good as me saying what should I do when my car is over heating and you tell me "fix it". It doesn't really help the discussion. I definitely agree we need to stop arguing about this peripheral stuff and concentrate on the article, it's getting us nowhere. Vespine (talk) 06:42, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, so please, let us stop. It does not seem you and I are going on to a good forward-moving future this way. By the way, if I may reply in kind, you should learn to take compliments and accept alliance when they are offered. You do not have to defend yourself every time I post something. You want me to get over...what, exactly? Get over you? Get over the fact that no one does anything constructive except argue about definitions on the talk page? Get over myself? Really, you remind me of my wife. If this is how you feel, it's clear I'd better put the brakes on totally. And stop calling me dude. Even my 30-year-old nieces are not allowed to call me that.76.195.86.155 (talk) 12:53, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Re "get over it" I can't spell it out any clearer then my previous post, if you still don't get it, don't worry about it, let's just move on. As for calling you dude, that's fine, i'll stop, but you should probably know that your assumption about me being female is incorrect, I'm not sure where you got that from. Vespine (talk) 23:32, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh Vespine, I am sorry about the assumption; it's just that it always struck me that you were female. It isn't personal or even of consequence. I'm a gay man, so that doesn't matter one little bit. Hopefully now that we both got something off our chests, there will be no hard feelings?--Sorry, I had to dive in again and add, I'm happy with people either way, and not sexist. But what I don't understand is how did you get an impression about me thinking you were female? I never said anything to you that would indicate it, did I? As a counter-example, I never posted anything "gay" sounding either, other than being a drama queen, did I? It's a puzzle.76.195.86.155 (talk) 06:30, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

No hard feelings at all, I didn't mention it before because I din't consider it important. There was a couple of times you referred to me as "she" on the talk page, like I said, no big deal at all, just clearing it up.. Vespine (talk) 13:26, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes of course--that is true, there were some references to you as "she" or "her"...I am sorry. I do not want you to get a wrong impression from that either. As I said, that thought somehow lodged in my brain, that you were a female. And also to be clear, that it was certainly not in any other context when I referred to you as a female. That will teach me to be more careful than I'm used to being! What use is it to live if not to learn? But I must thank you. This error I made is something that could have exploded in an ugly way if you had been like the admins here, or other editors I've encountered.76.195.86.155 (talk) 04:00, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Say, I just jumped back in because I wanted to tell you: I saw & recalled back in June at Mannheim talk page, you posted about when you were "a young boy in school", about the spitting! Jeez, what a stupid head I am. Vespine just sounds like female to me, I guess. From My Royal Weirdness, take that as a compliment!76.195.86.155 (talk) 06:27, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm making a disgusting hash of your talk page. Will you please have a look at my latest suggestion in the Ouija section of the talk page? It's that pesky little thing but it shows Anupam's frame of mind here. I think that is important if we are going to try to slash and burn again...I don't want to pressure you. It's also easy to totally lose interest in this crappy article as it stands now.75.21.106.189 (talk) 02:11, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Archiving pages

"The talk page guidelines suggest archiving when the talk page exceeds 50 KB or has more than 10 main topics. However, when to archive, and what may be the optimal length for a talk page, are subjective decisions that should be adapted to each case. For example, ongoing discussions and nearby sections they reference should generally be kept intact [emphasis mine]." Retrieved this date from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Archiving_a_talk_page Hope this helps us...I'm trying to decide whether we should just blindly follow this as of now. The talk page is not as bad as some, and the examples I've seen are not at all archived.75.21.106.189 (talk) 13:47, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Sorry Kiddo, neither you nor I have the luxury of time for this crap. I liked studying the cut-and-paste archiving method but I do not think either of us would be trusted by the walls-that-have-ears if we did it. Go to the link I've given you and see if YOu can fully figure that out!! See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Archiving_a_talk_page#Cut_and_paste_procedure75.21.106.189 (talk) 13:53, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Anupam time

V., I went to plead with your admin pal for help with Anupam. I'm sorry if you disagree, but that jerk is getting me very angry. Have you seen how he spit in both our eyes, and just reverted the article back the way he wants it?? Have you seen that? That is vandalism and he knows it. He's gone way past the RRR rule and conflict of interest. Now he's just baiting us, and then pretending to be all cutie-pie on the talk page. He's a slimy one and I'm sick of HIM. It was never the article, it was always him.75.21.106.189 (talk) 18:26, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

This is disgustingly time-wasting and I've had it with you accusing me of yelling at YOU, and I am also tired of your defense of Anupam. So to hell with this. And do not even bother to reply to me because I certainly won't be reading it. Have fun defending/being knocked down by Anupam.75.21.106.189 (talk) 12:04, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

I have no idea what you're even talking about.. where did I accuse you of anything? I have NO idea how to communicate to you. I really do try to be sensitive and objective, but every time i try to give you a opinion, you just crack the shits.. I tried to give you an objective opinion of what Anupam is doing, you seem to think he has a vandetta or something, if that's the case, just SHOW ME where are these edits where he "does what he wishes to the article"? All the edits are logged so it's easy, just show me what you think Anupam is doing that's so horrible? I tried to present to you the evidence that he hasn't been reverting more then once which is not against the rules, and I also presented you with the SOLUTION which is to undo his edits and then SEE if he'll revert it more then 3 times, in which case then you really have evidence against him. I don't know how to be more reasonable. But for some reason, you single out something I wrote, which I still don't know what it was, and you think I'm "accusing" you of something and take it personally and throw a hissy fit. Vespine (talk) 13:36, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

---

You know, I hate to leave "cold" like this without some expression of gratitude and appreciation to you. So here it is.

It's important that you understand, I really don't have time for all this to-and-fro with this article. Wikipedia has mucked up the editing process just as I was starting (barely) to become proficient with the old way.

Still, in spite of mostly being unheard and watching A. get his way over there, I don't want to spirit out of the picture without expressing my innate fondness for you. I thought a lot of it was fun while it lasted.

I saw your latest post. Bully for you, I say--let him have it, in as civil a manner as he dishes it out: and don't forget to forgive me my hissy fits and seeming gracelessness (I'm like a Scot that way).75.21.111.206 (talk) 04:13, 14 September 2010 (UTC)