Talk:Imagine (song)

Misc comments

I just edited to remove "Madonna Version" section. A Madonna cover should not be so prominently featured in this article.--24.99.133.168 (talk) 19:26, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

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Can anyone justify giving Madonna her own section for her cover of "Imagine"? This section should be deleted (or every other artist that covered the song needs to have their own section).

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—Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.10.89.5 (talk) 17:55, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

This is the lesson Mr. Lennon's song taught me:

"Spirituality begins where religion ends."

Meditate on that one before replying.

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--- I think we should delete the comments about how this song relates to communist that book Lennon in America has been debunked and Lennon's claims against property and religion, as well as his repeated use of "the people," have led some to posit the song as being advocative of communism and/or anarchism is just a theory and most people don't believe this. April 14, 2006

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Where is the song length taken from? I'm not familiar with any six minute versions of imagine and the All Music Guide entry doesn't mention any over three minutes long. --StoneColdCrazy 08:01, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

I too have never heard of a 6 minute version. I am changing the time to 3:04, which according to allmusic.com is the length of the song on his album. - Akamad 09:10, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

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"Utopian but atheistic?" Please. This isn't even in the same country as NPOV. --LDC

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There are no countries in Lennon's utopia. What are you talking about? :-)

--- Sorry, LDC but 80-something percent of human beings believe in some divine thingy. NPOV actually leans towards the "but" in this case.

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Neutral point of view does not mean majority point of view. It means not expressing what are clearly biased opinions as if they were facts, even if they happen to be biased opinions shared by the majority. The present text pokes a bit of fun at Lennon's beliefs, but it is clear that those are expressed as opinions. Besides which, "utopian but atheistic" makes it sound like Lennon himself had some conflict, which is not just unbiased, but wrong. Lennon clearly thought the two were natural together. --LDC

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I remember an episode of WKRP in Cincinnati where a Jerry Falwell-type guy tries to get them to stop playing songs like Imagine...obviously that doesn't need to be mentioned here, but as I understand, that episode was based on a real situation. Was Imagine involved in that as well? Adam Bishop 22:47, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Socialism vs. communism

I'm sure that Lennon is imagining a utopian communist world.

In Lenin's Lennon's utopia, there are no countries, no possessions, no religions, and basically nothing worth fighting for. Sounds like the elimination of the human race. However, Lennon apparently envisioned people in his world of no class, status, or money. I think it's a communist world Lennon imagines, but the article says socialism. - Calmypal 02:50, Oct 30, 2004 (UTC)

I've changed it to anarchy, which is what he's describing. Sarge Baldy 17:56, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

i don't think he is describing anything..<script type="text/javascript" src="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Omegatron/monobook.js/addlink.js&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript&dontcountme=s"></script> just a peaceful world whatever that entails. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.208.7.175 (talk) 07:34, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Propaganda

Could this song be considered as propaganda? Rentastrawberry 17:35, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

No. Quite simply, no. From your user page, I see that you are a fourteen-year-old neolibertarian. I assume that you've been listening to a lot of talk radio and reading a lot of blogs, and this idea came from some libertarian-conservative pundit. Whatever your opinion on the merits of the song Imagine, it is not "evil leftist propaganda" at all. You probably won't understand this completely until you're older. You are fourteen years old and you know very little about the world. I knew very little about the world when I was fourteen, too, and I still lacked perspective when I was eighteen. As far as I can tell, you fashion yourself as a neolibertarian, and as such you do not like communism or communists. Lennon's politics were of the far-left variety, and this song reflects some of his views. Thus, you view it as some sort of propaganda. Your thought process is understandable, but you are wrong. You are probably not educated enough to appreciate this, and you are definitely too young to understand. --dlainhart 01:46, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I think you're being a bit harsh on Rentastrawberry here -- I disagree with the ageism, although I agre that you're right: it's not propaganda. The reason it's not 'propaganda' is that the common usage of the word propaganda does not include creative, artistic expression. A news broadcast, a newspaper, or a non-fiction book can all be propaganda. I would be hard pressed to find any examples of songs or poems that fit the modern definition of propaganda. Bugg42 09:36, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Hoping that my new entry will not be deleted "per NPA" another try: We can judge communism by what we saw in history. That comprises the fact that no communist country was ever able to maintain its power without locking people (democrats in the first place) away and without mock elections and such things. If the song "Imagine" tells us what a great world we would live in without possessions and religion, that is propaganda. Telling a 14-year-old that he is too young to judge on communism (simply because he rejects it) is not very far away from telling all citizens that they have to favor communism and therefore abolitioning other parties, elections and democracy itself. By the way: Sorry to re-open an old discussion. 84.57.5.243 12:33, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I definitely agree. I'm 13, but I can understand communism. A communistic society would be a benefit to man's existence. Our world is great superficially, but look just below the surface, and you'll see immorality, conflict, and prejudice. People are just afraid to make sacrifices for the world's collective quality. Communism has not existed on a large scale, because things like the SU were not classless. There was a ruling class. And with one of those, it's not actually communism. Since there is no good example of such a utopia, it is not strange that we cannot understand.

I'm a little bit older than you (17) and I don't believe communism can actually work, I'm not looking at the Soviet Union or North Korea but the philosophy itself, it's too idealistic, I subscribe to Benito Mussolini's belief that conflict is a fundamental part of being human, Be it my country's various wars with France or everyday conflict such as an argument with a neighbour, There is never going to be a time when everyone is equal and there is no conflict, Human beings aren't even created equal, Some are more gifted intellectually others are better at sport and so on. Selfishness made the modern world, Not the everyday sort of selfishness such as stealing something but simply living for yourself, I wish to thank the man who first exploited someone or something else for his own gain because it led to all sorts of things we could not imagine our lives without. I believe the reason Communism doesn't work is not because man isn't good enough for it to work but because there's something fundamentally wrong with the theory-Ted Fox 18:04, 1 July 2008 (GMT)

I am a lot older than both of you and, as we are talking about John Lennon's article, I will beg you to honour his inspiration, which was purely idealistic. Keeping this in mind, "imagine" communism (or any other equalitarian society) as a north where John was trying to point us to walk towards. Perhaps Utopia (or communism) cannot work but they seem to me a far more desirable perspective than Musolini's fascism, inhuman by nature. That's a Maquiavelic thought more than any other thing and I believe it has no place on this debate about improving John Lennon's Wiki-Place. (Jose) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.107.191.217 (talk) 20:16, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Proposed Article Edit

This sentence: "Instead of trying to stop the conflict peacefully, the government is trying to stop the spread of the idea." seems most out of place.

1: It's in present tense while its paragraph references events in the past.

2: It's political commentary.

Barring any disagreement, I'd like to remove it. Lawyer2b 22:03, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

I totally agree, it should definately be removed. I'll do it myself to save you time :) - Akamad 09:19, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

The fact that Lennon sang "...and no religion too..." don't mean that the music has elements of atheism, because he can believe in god and be against religions.

I'd be tempted to agree, but religion doesn't specifically mean "organized religion", it can mean any system of faith-based belief. But in a way I still think you're right, since you can be spiritual in some sense that isn't quite religion because it only applies to yourself. I don't know if that describes John Lennon's beliefs or not though. Sarge Baldy 19:17, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Its best not to touch atheism and leave it as it is in the song, open to interpretation. I personally believe the song isn't so much about Lennon supporting anarcho-communism as he is just asking for peace, but that's my point of view. Being an open and free reference, Wikipedia should not force any one view upon the reader. --2ltben 05:08, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Article lacks depth

Discussing the politics of Imagine's lyrics is like discussing the construction of christ's cross. Factually correct, but completely beside the point.

The song's power comes from a combination of naivete and a genuinely sincere belief in the goodness of mankind.

When you get old an cynical, which isn't hard to do. You lose faith in the decency of the human species. Torture, exploitation, misery, death, greed ... every day, day after day it's paraded in front of our faces and after a while you lose hope.

When it gets really bad, and you start to wonder if it would be better if we were all wiped off the map, I can listen to John telling me to imagine a world of people, living life in peace. You can really FEEL that's he can see it in his soul, with every fibre of his being. And for a little while it rubs off on me and I see it too.

 THAT is the gift that this song has given mankind.

You can talk about ism's and all but this song is about FAITH. Not in some eternal reward after you die but in ourselves, as a species.

As such, I find the statements underlying the song as a rejection of spirituality to be unusually offensive.

Agnostic perhaps, but not atheistic.

ps: Many of the concerns highligted about this song are tragically american preocupations that AREN'T shared elewhere in the world. This is a shame, since this song belongs to all of us.

Well, there is a problem with theists all over the world, and USA isn't the most fundamentalist country... But yes, many of these "problems" is typically American (such as extreme distrust in everything commie before even thinking about what it means and problem with accepting agnosticism/atheism as truth) when we're only talking about the industrialized countries of the world. Hey, if us Europeans could do it, i know you can do it! Just give it another hundred years and hope the stupid people's murders won't destroy the state. Ran4 00:32, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Citation?

Can someone cite a mainstream source claiming that "Imagine" is promoting anarchist communism or has such overtones, or a citation for Lennon claiming that it does? I googled "john lennon" imagine communism and all I found was people debating the topic. It doesn't make sense regardless. Anarchist communism has possessions, contradicting "no possessions". Waiting 24 hours then reverting in absence of citation. MrVoluntarist 05:16, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, the problem is that possessions themselves are very vaguely defined in anarchism or communism. Anarchist communism seeks to abolish property, but not personal belongings. Therefore, it could be quite a hassle to find proof regarding that single line of the song lyrics. But, at least it seems certain that Lennon sympathized with anarchists like John Sinclair (he and Ono organized a rally in his favor). Also, look for this opinion

The lyrics to John Lennon's "Imagine" (although bearing a 1971 copyright) reflect the communist anarchist's credo quite well. [1]

in a bookreview regarding anarchists in the 20th century. Maybe there's more, but I am sry to say that I'm too busy right now to find it on the net. --Johnnyw 23:20, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Removed uncited item that said Lennon said the song was about anarchic communism.

Sparkzilla 13:22, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

edit by 82.5.238.242

Can someone look in the addition by this anon? He has been introducing errors on purpose, and this may very well be one of them. However, I am loathe to undo it myself. --EMS | Talk 22:03, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Is this song based on buddhism?

Even if yoko ono made the song,was it based on buddhist things? And why does she blame the pacific world war 2 on religion when japan started it for non religion purposes.

huh? Explain yourself? What are you referencing? Theshibboleth 08:10, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Cover "by" George W. Bush

I heard a cover of this on the radio in which someone took soundclips from Bush and arranged them in such a way as to make the lyrics of the song. I don't know who did it or when, but if anyone knows about it, they should mention it. It was really funny. The Ungovernable Force 06:10, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

The artist is Wax Audio and the album title is Mediacracy. The version is called Imagine This. The song is available for free at [2]. It is hilarious and well constructed. Dankru 04:56, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

The original remix (that gained popularity about 4 years ago) is by RX and the compiliation was called The Party Party. He's done a lot more in that style. 173.8.137.226 (talk) 20:24, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I've heard the song on CKOI-FM's website (ckoi.ca) last year and was it remixed by DJ Tom Compagnoni--74.56.237.202 23:53, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Lyrics

Would it be appropriate to include the song's lyrics in the article?

Afaik, song lyrics can be linked to, but not posted. Anyone who knows for sure? --Johnnyw 19:29, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Another proposed article edit

Regarding this part: "The utopian world gives way to self-doubt and insecurities lingering inside the former Beatle." In my opinion, this phrase lacks objectivity. Since when is wishing a better world "insecure"? 217.126.90.204 01:39, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

• Agreed. Also, not very NPOV. Folkor 06:47, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Backmasking

Even the person who alleged that the phrase "Imagine all the people" played out as "The people war beside me" when played backwards admitted that it probably was not John Lennon's intent. Aside from that, this information does not seem very encyclopedic to me. Andrea Parton 19:19, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

It sounds just as much "walk" as "war", imo. I agree, leave it out.--2ltben 05:14, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Lyrics

Should the lyrics be shown here? Lord of Light 13:21, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Does anybody listen?

The vast popularity of this song in the U.S. makes me conclude that nobody actually listens to the lyrics.

The vast majority of Americans say they believe in heaven. Do they really think that things would be better if there was no heaven?

The vast majority of Americans think that the country is wonderful, and many want to keep foreigners out. Do they really think that things would be better if there was no country?

Most Americans seem to think that dying for one's country, or one's beliefs, is a good and noble thing. Do they really think that things would be better if there was nothing to die for?

The vast majority of Americans claim believe in religion, and many think it is more important than anything else in their life. Do they really think that things would be better if there was no religion?

And most Americans believe that a society's success can be measured by the standard of living of its citizens and by how much they possess, and they jealously guard what they individually own. Do they really thing things would be better if there were no possessions?

A pretty tune, a famous singer, and words that nobody listens to.

If nobody listens to the words, then I'm a nobody. Anybody else a nobody? LuciferMorgan 18:33, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I've noticed this too. I've seen people who like the song even though it's saying stuff way opposed to their values. I once mentioned that to one such person and she said "well I don't care about the lyrics, it's just a nice melody" or they like the general desire peace and "living for today" if not the specific details of it. I find the lyrics despicable and nihilist, but I have to admit it's pleasant to listen to.--T. Anthony 04:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• I listen to the words too. For the most part, I agree with them. Andrea Parton 22:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Not sure it's encyclopedic, but I listen, and disagree generally (liked the first verse the first time I heard it, the second verse I disliked even when I was a socialist. Never appreciated communitarianism) with the words. It's a great song though. Hey, I love "the Internationale" too, and several other communist songs, and I sing the two populist verses of "This Land," despite disagreeing with then. Communists (and populists) simply have the best songs. If it's not "Dixie" or a Nazi song, I don't care what the words say if the song's a good one. --71.192.117.127 03:22, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Deleting Humanism and etc.

Lennon's claims against property and religion, as well as his repeated use of "the people," have led some to posit the song as being advocative of humanism, communism, and anarchism.

I'm going to delete these comments because who believes this and there is no source? John Lennon never said anything about anarchism, humanism, or communism. John Lennon in his own words said this song was only about Imagining no religion and country. So I'm going to delete that statement because it's not true. Septermber 20th 2006

He said stomething about Communism, see the next section. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 17:49, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Deleting The Killing Field

Again this song dosen't deal with Karl Marx or anything in that nature and anyone who say's that is lying. John Lennon in his own words said this song was only about Imagining no religion and no Countries.

That half-true, half-false. The song does not deal with killing fields and no-one in his right mind would attribute any wishes for Killing Fields or violence to John Lennon (at least when he was in his right mind). However, he sure was quite naive in a lot of things he wrote and sang (just listen to Some Time in New York). But the thing that bugs me is that the anon above simply claims that the song has nothing to do with Karl Marx, when Lennon drew the link himself (which I have therefore included). And one more thing: "Image no possessions" ... are you, anon, willing to give up all your belongings? Really? Really? Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 17:48, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

The song obviously doesn't deal with the Killing fields since Pol Pot wasn't in power then, but the ideas behind Imagine did directly lead to Cambodia's massacre's, Soviet Russia, Mao's China and many other Communist dictatorships. Personally I'm not Imagine's biggest fan (It has a nice tune I'll grant you that) because of the amount of slaughter and destruction caused by those ideals. Anyway, I don't think anyone of sound mind would want to live in a world like Imagine (not that it's possible in the first place) because I like owning my house, I like living in the greatest country in the world, I like freedom of religion (Although I'm pretty right wing in my politics I don't care which god, goddess or whole carnival of gods anyone believes in) I like having things to kill and die for (Family, Nation etc.) because if there was nothing to die for then there'd be nothing to live for either-Ted Fox 00:02, 7 July 2008 (GMT)

Citing sources and making references

This article is sadly lacking in references for many statements and claims. I have begun the process by making properly coded references out of the few existing links, and a References section where they end up. I have also added just three (of what should be dozens) {{cn}} tags (which create this: ). When the sources are provided and the references made, they can replace the tags. Many other statements need such references. -- Fyslee 08:21, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

All the statements in the lead need to be in the body of the article. So those uncited statements would then be needed to be inline cited in the body, and not the lead. LuciferMorgan 13:11, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

You are quite right. The lead should contain short summaries of the major elements already in the article, so referencing in the lead shouldn't be necessary, although the WP:LEAD guidelines do mention it as allowable. If anything is in the lead that isn't discussed in more depth in the article, it should be moved into the body of the article and further developed. You are welcome to move those parts, or the citation requests, to the appropriate places in the body of the article.

As far as the revert of the Nutopia link (in less obtrusive ref format), it was only in connection with the website, not at the end of the sentence to document the question of "Why." If it had been there, it should also include documentation for the claim. References can be included for many reasons, not just as documentation for claims, but also for inline links. They are less obtrusive than normal links. I'll fix that sentence on both counts. -- Fyslee 14:07, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

What does the second cite prove? I clicked on the link and it takes me to a whois search. Unless it takes one to a page where it states it was created by Lions Gate Entertainment, it should be removed. LuciferMorgan 15:30, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

The reference contains the instructions. If you follow them, you'll find the proof. If you can figure out a way to make a direct link, be my guest. As the statement is now written, it is NPOV, since the previous claim is removed. People can decide for themselves if the creation of the website by the producer was for promotional purposes or not. We may think so, but that's OR.....;-) Actually stating it can be construed as a negative POV from the editors, which would only say something about the editors' political POV. (Promotion is normally considered perfectly legitimate.) -- Fyslee 15:37, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the "no refrences tag is unfair. This article has 12 refrences. It should be removed 129.252.127.98 07:09, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Omission/alteration of "no religion too"

In the preface of his book The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins states that in the USA it is not uncommon for the line "no religion too" to be omitted or altered to "one religion too". Repugnant either way, IMNSHO. Anyhow, does anyone have citations of recordings or performances with such omissions/alterations? --Brouhaha 09:00, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe Dawkins is delusional. I've never, ever, heard that change made in any performance or cover of the song. Tvoz | talk 08:12, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I have never heard the line "one religion too" either. However, I heard one performance of the song by John Lennon himself in which the line "and no religion too" was changed to "and no immigration too". With as many cover versions as have been made of the song, one could expect some variations of the lyrics to exist. For example, Dolly Parton added the word "and" prior to the line "no hell below us". Such a minor lyrical change probably would not be encyclopedic; however, changes to a line that would probably be very controversial in any song might be worthy of mention in an encyclopedia article, but I do not know enough about how often the line "no religion too" has been changed or what it has been changed to most often in order to make such a decision. But everyone can feel free to add verifiable and notable facts to Wikipedia at any time. Andrea Parton 03:13, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh yeah, I agree -I only added "allegedly", didn't remove the claim - although I do seriously question it. Tvoz | talk 05:21, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I have heard such a version (though I cannot say by whom). However, the previous inclusion of Dawkins was wrong in as much as Dawkins did not claim that any radio station censored it. He reported that someone else (American) said that sometimes the line is ommitted in performance and once changed (which he called an effrontery). Nonetheless, Tvoz is probably right in his observation above. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 17:52, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I know not of any time he said "and one religion too" but I have heard "and no immigration, too." Probably the most notable live change in lyrics that Lennon himself made was saying "A brotherhood, a sisterhood of man" which he did in multiple live performances, including Live in New York City and the last live performance of it on A Salute to Lew Grade. I always sing this variant, as, like Lennon, I find it good to be gender inclusive on such matters. andrewlargemanjones

I don't think Lennon would have allowed ANY corruption of his song. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.101.244.117 (talk) 01:55, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I presume Dawkins was not talking about performances by Lennon, but rather performances by other individuals or bands, who thought that they would "improve" the song. --Brouhaha (talk) 06:23, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

thats how i interpreted it.123.208.7.175 (talk) 07:40, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

No Heaven or Hell

If there is no heaven or hell, then what is the difference between being John Lennon and Mark David Chapman? Murder victim and murderer. Chapman will probably die of natural causes in prison just like James Earl Ray did. For the sake of murder victims and the rest of the us, I hope and pray there is a heaven and hell, with G-D choosing who goes to heaven and hell. Take away the hope of heaven and the threat of hell and a lot of people might choose to live a criminal life, because it could be more fun, at least in this world.204.80.61.10 18:11, 4 January 2007 (UTC)Bennett Turk

What a stupid question. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.254.16.249 (talk) 21:04, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

I believe in Heaven and Hell, but a difference between a killer and victim exist even if there is no afterlife. There is the moral difference that can be judged in this life, the impact positive/negative you had on others, and finally there is how you are remembered after you are dead. A purely atheistic or humanistic society could judge Lennon as better than Chapman based on his accomplishments and cultural achievements. Granted this could lead to the question "does that mean Phil Spector, the producer of this song, is better than Lana Clarkson?" as she didn't do as much of cultural significance. The answer is "I'm not sure, ask an atheist", but I think moral judgments can still be made regardless.--T. Anthony 04:22, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

If people really believed that there was no heaven or hell, they'd be far less willing to go on jihads killing other people for promised rewards in heaven. That would be enough of an improvement in our earthly life to make up for any perceived lack of sufficient punishment for miscreants.

However, Wikipedia isn't really the right place to debate religious and moral issues. --Brouhaha 05:37, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Then why did you do so? Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 17:54, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

"Wasn't it a millionaire?"

I have deleted the following from the section "Criticism": "This criticism, however, ignores the fact that Lennon used much of his fortune to help underprivileged. [3]"

I imagine this deletion will upset somebody, so I thought I would explain my reasons here. I think this could be challenged on the basis of NPOV, but for now I will simply point out that it is in clear violation of NOR.

According to Wikipedia:No original research, an edit is inappropriate if "[i]t introduces an argument, without citing a reputable source for that argument, that purports to refute or support another idea, theory, argument, or position".

Although a link is provided, it does not appear to have anything whatsoever to do with the argument presented (other than the fact that it is partly about John Lennon).

Drake Dun 13:21, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. And furthermore it is nonsensical. If someone says no possessions - he should not be a millionaire. "no possessions" doesn't mean a load of money and giving some of it to the poor. If he meant that he should have said so. Or he must take the criticism. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 17:56, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

You can leave the criticism up if you want to, but Lennon himself commented on the inevitability of living without posessions in the current world. It was a criticism of society in general. Quite simply, you can't really live in America and not have possessions. But Lennon was criticizing this world, this country, and the materialism it produces. It's stupid to call someone a hypocrite because they have possessions and say that people shouldn't have possessions. He's caught up in the game, he can't magically snap his finger and change the game, but that doesn't mean he can't criticize the rules of the game. andrewlargemanjones

If that is a notable criticism of the song though it should be mentioned. Whether it's a valid criticism or not can be dealt with in some way without deleting it.--T. Anthony 04:04, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it should not be deleted, I was just making the case. Someone could possibly mention Lennon's defense about criticisms such as this towards him, which I find unfair coming from other famous musicians, but I'm not saying to delete it or anything. I might look up and find a good citation later to comment on his defense of similar criticisms, of which I know the Playboy interview in 1980 would be a good one, if I remember correctly. Basically, I just thought I would voice some defense for the man, as it was a Utopian song and since we don't live in a Utopia, I don't see how he's expected to live without possessions and such.andrewlargemanjones

I think it could be done. He could've given everything away and moved into a commune or used his money to create a commune where no individual has possessions. (Obviously the possessions themselves would still exist, after a fashion, as they'd need still need food and shelter) Understand I'm not saying it was necessary for him to do that in order to reach his utopia. It could possibly be stated that, like many utopians, this was an ultimate aim to aspire to rather than a lifestyle you have to adhere to in current society. Still if he really wanted to live without personal possessions I think he could've managed it, at least in theory.--T. Anthony 04:40, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

the only thing lennon has to have done to NOT be hypocritical is to have "IMAGINED" no possessions. to say he said "no possessions" as a command is to take his statements very much out of context (as costello did). lennon simply posits that the listener IMAGINE things like no possessions, religion, countries. he does NOT say you must not have possessions. in a literal sense, the song does not advocate that the things lennon imagines are even GOOD IDEAS, it simply asks that you IMAGINE them.

It is true that he could have, in theory, lived without possessions. However, I don't think Lennon felt that to live without possessions would matter much is a world that is so materialistic. At some point, I will stop being lazy and cite a defense quote from Lennon in the criticism section, which I feel will be an appropriate way to resolve the differences of opinion. andrewlargemanjones

Okay, I added a defense to the criticisms section, one that was not in defense of the song Imagine but directly related to the criticism. I don't know if I worded everything Wikipedia-ish/encyclopedic enough, but I think the content is important. andrewlargemanjones

Singles chronology

Lennon was British, and this was released on Apple Records, a British label. As such, I think if we're only having one chronology in the infobox it should be the British. (In the UK, this single was released in 1975 and was followed by 1980's "(Just Like) Starting Over".

I'll see if I can get a dual chrono set up in the infobox; if I fail I'm inclined to revert to a British chronology. --kingboyk 18:18, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Deleted external link

A user named Duplicity has deleted an external link I added to this article [4] pointing to a blog post I wrote about the Khaled/Noa wonderful cover of Imagine in Arabic & Hebrew. Besides linking to an mp3 of the song in this post, I feature a YouTube video of a live performance of by the performers & a translation of the powerful lyrics.

There is no legitimate reason to delete this link. I do not have any conflict of interest in linking to my blog as I gain nothing from doing so. The sole pupose of the link is to allowed interested Wikipedians to delve deeper into this particular cover version of the song in light of the tragic history of the Israeli-Arab conflict.

Please do not revert this link w/o first consuling with me.Richard (talk) 08:25, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Linking to your own publications (whether they're blog postings or something else) is considered bad form because it gives the appearance of a conflict of interest regardless of of whether such a conflict actually exists. If a publication has sufficient relevance, someone other than its author will add a link to it. Adding links to information published by others regarding the covers would be more appropriate than linking to your own blog post about them. --Brouhaha (talk) 06:32, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Steven Colbert

The song is referenced in his chapter on religion in the book I Am America (And So Can You!).

Jt_200075 20:23, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Yoko is suing Expelled filmaker for using Imagine w/o permission

Read about it here. It was used without permission in the Expelled film and kind of equates the song with Nazism, Berlin wall, etc. The line "imagine no religion' is equated with a totalistic state, not what Lennon had in mind methings. Should that be included in the article? I could add it if it seems appropriate Angry Christian (talk) 21:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I dont believe it should be in this article, It should probably be in the Expelled article and Yoko ono. But not this one. User:Chasesboys —Preceding undated comment was added at 20:38, 10 January 2009 (UTC).

criticism removal

I want to have a consensus on the criticism section of this article and weather or not it should be in here. I would like to remove it because it is all POV from the people who are critising the song. Elvis Costello's comment is not a criticism and should be put into his songs article. The playboy interview has nothing to do with "Imagine" either, and has no direct reference to the song. The opening line is unsourced and is POV. (Chasesboys (talk) 21:08, 10 January 2009 (UTC))

I AM SHOCKED!!!!

No one added Connie Talbot to the list of who sings this! Besides the original i think she is the best. NOTE I THINK. I will get a message saying this ones better and so forth. --Bkopicz3 (talk) 04:42, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Proposal: Remove live covers

The live covers section detracts from this article and should be removed. — John Cardinal (talk) 21:19, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Back Masked Message.

I was listening to some of my favorite songs in reverse and at about second 3.01(in reversed) I heard, "There's no one there's nothing." Is it real? Supportstorm (talk) 04:28, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

New Years?

Does anyone remember how at New Times Square in New York on New Year's Eve, how Imagine is played right before New Year's? Should that be added to the article? 70.128.126.154 (talk) 00:23, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Citation

• One of Google's Most Popular Searches, 'Imagine The World As One', which is an online project of The Freedom, Independence & World Democracy (FIWD) Institute, London (OA/OWB), is a website that provides an extensive listing of Criteria for Imagining the World as One, as John might have envisioned.

This does not seem plausible at all. It would seem that the particular company has simply added themselves to the page for some sort of promotion; The citation is just brings you to the Google search of "Imagine the World as One". It does the same with Ask and Alta Vista.
To be frank, there is no way of telling Google's most popular searches, so this is definitely sabotage or self promotion. I have not deleted this incase I'm wrong, but I'm rather confident that I am correct.

Cover versions section

The "trivia" tag was added to this section by PJtP. I beleive that this tag is not justified. Quoting WP:TRIVIA, "...a selectively populated list with a relatively narrow theme is not necessarily trivia, and can be the best way to present some types of information".

The list of notable covers is an important part of the article. The list of prominent musicians who have covered the song is a key part of the songs legacy. Reviewing the history of edits, i see a number of contributers to this section who's contributions have been removed.

On a couple of occassions John has removed chunks of the list of notable covers, indicating that they (or their notability) are unsourced. Note that WP:NOCITE refers primarily to doubtful information and then inicates that a "fact" tag should be added for a reasonable time period before removing info.Bcharles (talk) 18:11, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Why was it released in the U.S. in 1971 and in Britain not until 1975?

Why was Imagine released in the US in 1971 and in Britain not until four years later, in 1975? After all, I suppose Lennon had (and still has) many fans in the U.K., so why would they have to wait for Imagine until 1975? (Sorry for mistakes, English is not my native language.) --87.78.91.131 (talk) 22:27, 11 December 2010 (UTC) Jasper