Talk:Hagar
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Hagar(In Arabic litrature)
There is a misconception in this text. In the heading "Hagar in Islamic traditions"...the text narrates...Hagar bought an Egyptian wife for Ishmael and Arabs are their descendants....
First: I am not sure that Ishmael married an Egyptian woman. May be he had done that but there is no reference to that in Arabic literature...probably he may have married more than one wife; some of them were from the Arabic tribes that settled in the place including Jorham.
second (and I am sure of that): Arabs existed long before Ishmael...they originated mainly from the old kingdom of Sheba (the lands of present day Yemen and Oman) and other older nations who had a kingdom called "Ad"...their tribes used to navigate surrounding lands in nomadic activities and it was the tribe of "Jorham" that first located and settled around Hagar and her son. Ishmael as "the son of Abraham" was from Canaan, however through mixed breed with Arab tribes he established a new breed called "The Arabized Arabs" who are different than those of the called "The Arabian Arabs".
- ACCORDING TO THE BIBLICAL ACCOUNT, WHICH PROPHET MOHAMMED MAY HAVE HAD KNOWLEDGE OF MERELY BECAUSE CHRISTIAN COMMUNITIES MAY HAVE WANDERED OR SETTLED IN HIS AREA AND HE MAY HAVE HEARD THEIR STORIES OF THE PATRIARCHS, HAGAR DID SELECT AN EGYPTIAN WIFE FOR HER SON ISHMAEL, ISHMAEL'S EGYPTIAN WIFE IS VERY ACCURATE:
- GENESIS: 20 + 21 "And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an aarcher. And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a awife out of the land of Egypt."
- According to this Biblical Text (non-Quranic) - Ishmael indeed received an Egyptian Wife at the hand of his mother Hagar - after Sarah, Abraham's wife threw them out into the desert they somehow acquired a home and Ishmael grew up to be an Archer by profession.
Inhumane Treatment
" Later struggles may have projected the (pre-exilic) troubles with the Arab nomads to the time of Abraham and his sons. Ammon, Esau, Moab, and Canaan are just few examples when later issues gave birth to supposedly old stories."
This statement assumes that the older stories are not what they claim to be. You might claim for example that the Crusades were an old story created to explain today's tensions. I think the text merits acknowledgement of that is true except where it is proven untrue.
Biblical Scriptures list Hagar and Ishmael
Gen. 16: 1, 3-4, 8, 15-16 1 Now Sarai Abram’s wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. 3 And Sarai Abram’s wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife. 4 And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes. 8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai’s maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. 15 And Hagar abare Abram a son: and Abram called his son’s name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael. 16 And Abram was fourscore and six years old, when Hagar bare Ishmael to Abram. Gen. 21: 9, 14, 17 9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. 14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer-sheba. 17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the aangel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is. Gen. 25: 12 12 Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham’s son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah’s handmaid, bare unto Abraham: Gen. 25: 9, 12-13, 16-17 9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of bMachpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which is before Mamre; 12 Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham’s son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah’s handmaid, cbare unto Abraham: 13 And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam, 16 These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations. 17 And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people. Gen. 17: 18, 20, 23, 25-26 18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. 23 And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham’s house; and acircumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him. 25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 26 In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son. GENESIS: 20 And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. 21 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a awife out of the land of Egypt. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.241.76.57 (talk • contribs)
Sarah:Jealousy or Kindness?
Id really appreciate it if someone can change some things in the Islamic article and state that the reason why Hagar and Ishmael were taken away was because God ordered that to Abraham for certain reasons it had nothing to do with Sarah because the Quran portrays Sarah as a good wife who believed in Abraham and was rewarded with a promise that she shall live to give birth and also live to see her grandchild.Obviously god doesn't give such a reward to a wife that asks her husband to throw his other wife into a place where mankind cant live so can someone please remove any mention that Sarah had hatred towards Hagar in the Islamic section of this article,Thank you
011.071 YUSUFALI: And his wife was standing (there), and she laughed: But we gave her glad tidings of Isaac, and after him, of Jacob.
011.072 YUSUFALI: She said: "Alas for me! shall I bear a child, seeing I am an old woman, and my husband here is an old man? That would indeed be a wonderful thing!"
011.073 YUSUFALI: They said: "Dost thou wonder at Allah's decree? The grace of Allah and His blessings on you, o ye people of the house! for He is indeed worthy of all praise, full of all glory!"
77.69.195.30 (talk) 18:38, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
- This is your own personal interpretation, nothing more. None of your quotations support what you claim. They are simply expressions of piety. You are simply rewriting the text without providing evidence beyond assertion. Paul B (talk) 16:32, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
- I've checked the source. It's clear that Firestone summarises Ibn Abbas's version of the story, attested in many collections. She writes, "the episode begins because Sarah's jealousy of Hagar following the birth of Ishmael causes conflict and strife between the two women." (p.7) Paul B (talk) 19:20, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
I don't know who do u think you are teaching me my beliefs and my religion but I think your just Jealous or Narrow Minded when it comes to my belief so if u want sources ... here you get them .. you don't insult people by talking to them in such a matter sir you reason with them ..thank you
014.037
- "O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House; in order, O our Lord, that they may establish regular Prayer: so fill the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with fruits: so that they may give thanks.
this verse in the Holy Quran shows Abraham talking to god and telling him that he has left Ishmael his seed in the desert because of his command .. there is no Sarah in here what so ever Id like you to show me a good source because Ibn Abbas or any of those scholars who lived a long time ago were Philosophers who spoke with no proof or resource who was Ibn Abbas was he the Messenger of god? was he a prophet? I JUST SHOWED YOU the word of god no offense but I think my source is 10 times more reliable than the opinion of a Philosopher that has no source
can you show me where in the Hadiths does it say there was Hatred between Sarah and Hagar can you show me where in the Quran does it say there was hatred between Sarah and Hagar
you are making up your own interpretation by using the opinion of a man who used his own interpretation with no proof ... here is another proof that proves the Kindness of Sarah and patience
011.070 YUSUFALI: But when he saw their hands went not towards the (meal), he felt some mistrust of them, and conceived a fear of them. They said: "Fear not: We have been sent against the people of Lut."
011.071 YUSUFALI: And his wife was standing (there), and she laughed: But we gave her glad tidings of Isaac, and after him, of Jacob.
011.072 YUSUFALI: She said: "Alas for me! shall I bear a child, seeing I am an old woman, and my husband here is an old man? That would indeed be a wonderful thing!"
God Gave Sarah Isaac and after him Jacob ,God promised Sarah that she shall live to see her grandson Jacob ..I don't think god would give such a reward to a women who was Jealous of Hagar and kicked her out with her innocent child
011.073 YUSUFALI: They said: "Dost thou wonder at Allah's decree? The grace of Allah and His blessings on you, o ye people of the house! for He is indeed worthy of all praise, full of all glory!"
God doesn't bless women who hate and have Jealousy clearly this is common sense
I don't think your source is as reliable or even near mine, My source's important and Iam saying the Word of god .. No where in the Quran does it say Sarah hated Hagar and no where in the Hadiths does it say Sarah hated Hagar ,,, Iam assuming a smart gentleman like yourself knows the entire story in the Hadiths ... and there is clearly no mention that Sarah hated Hagar in the hadiths so where did u get this from?
so the conclusion is that you are supporting an Philosophy written by some human being writer who had no divine contact or knew Mohammed and u reject the holy book of Islam and the Hadiths of Islam .. ......I think the article should be edited immediately and I Gave u Quranic proof and common sense proof that My Point is correct and Sarah was a blessed women who was praised by god and the migration of Hagar had nothing to do with Sarah if it did then please show me ... but all there is to show is the bible or some random philosophy of some unknown random human BEING who had no proof for his argument ...?
Thank you 77.69.195.30 (talk) 14:48, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
- You are simply repeating the same passages again, and you are insisting that your interprtation must be accepted, even though none of your quotations in fact say that there was no jealousy or conflict. Your dissmissal of Ibn Abbas in favour of your own opinion hardly seems appropriate to me, but that's beside the point. We have clear source in Firestone and she quotes the relevant Hadith passages in her footnotes as follows: "12 full narratives can be found in al-Azraqi I, 22f., and I, 279-80; al-Buk- hari IV, 372-375, and IV, 379-380; al-Tabari, History, I, 279-281, and I, 282-283; al-Tabari, Commentary XIII, 229, and XIII, 230-231; Ibn Kathir, Commentary I, 176, and I, 177, and Qisas al-anbiya' I, 223-224, and I, 227-228. Two incomplete narratives are located in Ibn Hanbal I, 253, and I, 347-8. Five fragments containing a few of the motifs can be found in Ibn Sa'd I, 50; Ibn Hanbal, I, 360, and V, 121; and al-Azraqi, I, 22, and T, 279." Paul B (talk) 14:56, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Fine but Please do Make sure that the migration of Hagar was something made from god not Sarah nor did Sarah Influence God to make that choice
Mecca was meant to be the city that Ishmael will live in and leave his seed grow there so this had nothing to do with Sarah it was because god ordered Abraham that and I showed you the verse earlier
Another thing is you can instead say that Sarah didn't want to see Hagar because she knew that she'll get her female Jealousy because the Quran portrays Sarah as a patient good woman and in Islam the wives of prophets cant be rude and have hatred over such things so I suppose you should add a sentence saying that the migration was FROM GOD and Sarah had female Jealousy that's ALL no HATRED OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT KIND TOWARDS HAGAR 88.201.1.220 (talk) 12:02, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
A Daughter of Pharoah
The wikipedia article on Pharoah's daughter (married to King Solomon) includes a discussion of academic scholarship among egyptologists questioning that a pharoah would ever allow his daughter to marry out of the Egyptian Royal house. It seems to me that readers of this article, Hagar, would benefit from a parallel discussion here, or at least a reference to that other wikipedia entry. 24.185.8.28 (talk) 14:51, 1 November 2010 (UTC)Baruch
- Well, I doubt that anyone would think it remotely likely that a pharaoh would give his daughter to become the enslaved maidservant of a Hebrew nomad's wife, but that aspect of the story is not even in the bible. It's essentially just myth. Paul B (talk) 15:15, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
- "that aspect of the story is not even in the bible" Paul - That aspect of the account is exactly what IS in the bible. My curiosity is what is the current scholarship and bibliography among Egyptologists, archaeologists, and biblical scholars of that aspect of the issue. Know anyone who fits the bill? 24.185.8.28 (talk) 22:26, 1 November 2010 (UTC)Baruch
- Well perhaps you can tell me where in the Bible it says that Hagar was the daughter of the pharaoh. I can't find it in my copy. Paul B (talk) 22:33, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
- You're correct - The earliest citation I know of for that is the Aramaic translation of Genesis 16:1 ascribed (probably wrongly) to Yonatan ben Uziel. The central point of my query and this discussion thread still stands. I'd like to get any current scholarship or bibliography, or discussion from Egyptologists, archaeologists, or biblical scholars of those modern academic aspects of the issue, if only to flesh out and add to the wikipedia article those perspectives. My thought is that having those perspectives reflected in this article would make it more complete and informative, and would make this article's content / structure more uniform with other articles of biblical history. Know anyone who fits the bill? Thank you for your response.24.185.8.28 (talk) 01:16, 2 November 2010 (UTC)Baruch
- Well I think there is a difference between this story and that of Solomon. The bible does specifically say that he married pharaoh's daughter and it seems plausible that a king's daughter would marry another king. So in that case it is reasonable to look at what scholars would say about the likelihood of that story. But it is so wildly improbable that the pharaoh would give his daughter to be a slave that I doubt that scholars of Egyptian culture would even bother to refute it. Paul B (talk) 07:53, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- You're correct - The earliest citation I know of for that is the Aramaic translation of Genesis 16:1 ascribed (probably wrongly) to Yonatan ben Uziel. The central point of my query and this discussion thread still stands. I'd like to get any current scholarship or bibliography, or discussion from Egyptologists, archaeologists, or biblical scholars of those modern academic aspects of the issue, if only to flesh out and add to the wikipedia article those perspectives. My thought is that having those perspectives reflected in this article would make it more complete and informative, and would make this article's content / structure more uniform with other articles of biblical history. Know anyone who fits the bill? Thank you for your response.24.185.8.28 (talk) 01:16, 2 November 2010 (UTC)Baruch
Requested move
![]() | The request to rename this article to Hagar has been carried out.
If the page title has consensus, be sure to close this discussion using {{subst:RM top|'''page moved'''.}} and {{subst:RM bottom}} and remove the {{Requested move/dated|…}} tag, or replace it with the {{subst:Requested move/end|…}} tag. |
Hagar (Bible) → Hagar — Primary meaning of the word "Hagar" is this Hagar. Of course, the destination would have to be moved to Hagar (disambiguation). Srnec (talk) 06:07, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
When I perform a search for Hagar on Google, the top result is this article. On the top page there is also a Women of the Bible, Jewish Encyclopedia and Bible Study link related to Hagar (this one). At the bottom I get a list of "Searches related to hagar", which I presume is a list of searches others are making. The list looks like this:
- hagar bible
- sammy hagar
- hager
- hagar qim
- eldad hagar
- hagar the horrible
- meaning name hagar
- biblical hagar
—Srnec (talk) 23:20, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
Survey
- Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with
*'''Support'''
or*'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with~~~~
. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
- Oppose, no clear evidence of primary topic. Powers T 15:56, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose, in the light of no response to my request below to provide evidence (clear or otherwise) of a primary topic. Andrewa (talk) 20:19, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
- According to our own page view statistics (which I encourage you to check for yourself), this page gets roughly twice as many hits per day on average as Hägar the Horrible. Srnec (talk) 23:20, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
- Ah! Some evidence, thank you. Twice the page hits on its own is not enough to establish a primary topic IMO, so if that's the best evidence, no change of vote. I'll take your word for the stats... but if you really want people to check, it's good to provide a wikilink. Andrewa (talk) 06:47, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
- According to our own page view statistics (which I encourage you to check for yourself), this page gets roughly twice as many hits per day on average as Hägar the Horrible. Srnec (talk) 23:20, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose. I suspect this is another case of a misunderstanding about the meaning of primary topic, which is arguably a misnomer. The key factor is how often the Biblical topic which does get a few thousand views per month (surprisingly high to me) is sought when users are entering the homograph "hagar" in the Search box, relative to the other topics to which it may refer, including Sammy Hagar which regularly gets tens of thousands of monthly page views and a few other persons with surname "Hagar", Hagar the Horrible and other uses. While this Hagar gets more traffic than I would have expected, I see no reason to believe that it or any other use of the homograph meets primary topic criteria. --Born2cycle (talk) 22:37, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
- I don't know why we should consider other persons with the surname Hagar as homographs. Why does it matter how many people want to read an article about Sammy Hagar? Would anybody really be shocked to find out that typing "hagar" in the search box does not bring them to Sammy's article? I think the case of David is comparable to this one. Even though David is a far more well-known figure than Hagar (in Christendom), it is also a far more common name. If Wikipedia understands that David unqualified refers to the Biblical king, then I think we can say that Hagar unqualified refers to this woman, not to the cartoon Viking (as our page view statistics attest) and not to anybody surnamed Hagar or to any minor place named Hagar (which is naturally disambiguated by a country or region). Srnec (talk) 23:20, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you. The persons are not homographs. The term "hagar" is a homograph, because it may refer to one of several topics, and the surname as well as any person with that surname are among those topics to which "hagar" may refer.
As I understand primary topic determination, while reducing "shock" is one of the goals, the main goal is to get the most people who search with "hagar" to the article they are seeking as quickly as possible. After all, a primary topic is the topic among those to which a homograph may refer which is "much more likely than any other, and more likely than all the others combined – to be the subject being sought when a reader enters [that] homograph in the Search box." Because people entering "hagar" in the search box are likely to be seeking persons with surname "Hagar", like Sammy Hagar, is why we should consider how likely those persons are to be the sought topic when someone enters "hagar". Does that make sense?
Let me put it this way. If there was a contest to see who could get the most readers searching with "hagar" to their desired target with the lowest average number of clicks, how would you arrange these articles? If you put the dab page at "Hagar" then you're guaranteed an average of 1 click (because everyone entering "hagar" gets to the dab page right away and is 1 click away from their destination. If you put the Biblical figure at Hagar then those seeking that topic arrive with 0 clicks, but everyone else is 2 clicks away (1 to get to Hagar (disambiguation) from Hagar, and another to get to their destination. Now assume 10 readers enter "hagar" and half are looking for the biblical figure while others are looking for something else. The average is also 1 ((5 * 0 + 5 * 2)/ 10). But if less than half are seeking that topic then the average clicks required to get to the desired article is more than 1. So unless the topic is sought by at least half of those entering "hagar", readers are better served, on average, by putting the dab page at Hagar. That's known as a situation in which there is no primary topic, which is apparently what we have for "hagar". That's why Powers and others are saying there is no evidence of there being a primary topic here. But if you believe that more than half of those entering "hagar" are seeking this topic, then you should argue that, by sharing the reasons you think that, usually explained in terms of ghits, page view stats, etc.. --Born2cycle (talk) 02:02, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
- I got it. I'm just not convinced that the Wikipedia page actually reflects our conventions. That's why I mentioned David. I would argue—and this is all I was getting at by saying that persons surnamed Hagar are not in the same category as persons only named Hagar—that nobody can reasonably expect to arrive a given individuals article by typing only their surname in the search box unless that person is the primary topic for that name alone. So anybody searching for Sammy by typing in "hagar" cannot really be inconvenienced by ending up here and having to click a link to a dab page, because their search wasn't a good one to begin with. Typing "obama", one could reasonably expect to get to the current U.S. president's article, but typing "david", one could not reasonably expect to wind up at David Lloyd George. So what's the harm in forcing people with unreasonable expectations to make two clicks? Or so I would argue. (Googling hagar + abraham gets more results than "sammy hagar", I find.) Srnec (talk) 06:19, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you. The persons are not homographs. The term "hagar" is a homograph, because it may refer to one of several topics, and the surname as well as any person with that surname are among those topics to which "hagar" may refer.
- I don't know why we should consider other persons with the surname Hagar as homographs. Why does it matter how many people want to read an article about Sammy Hagar? Would anybody really be shocked to find out that typing "hagar" in the search box does not bring them to Sammy's article? I think the case of David is comparable to this one. Even though David is a far more well-known figure than Hagar (in Christendom), it is also a far more common name. If Wikipedia understands that David unqualified refers to the Biblical king, then I think we can say that Hagar unqualified refers to this woman, not to the cartoon Viking (as our page view statistics attest) and not to anybody surnamed Hagar or to any minor place named Hagar (which is naturally disambiguated by a country or region). Srnec (talk) 23:20, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
- Support - I've no idea who Sammy Hagar is, but it seems pretty obvious to me that Hagar is at the very least a good candidate for primary topic status, being a significant figure in three major religions. Deb (talk) 13:00, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
- Support. Vital article and most later occurrences of the name are derivative. I don't know why we should even consider Sammy Hagar (do his fans tend to forget his first name?). Cavila (talk) 19:24, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose the comicstrip character is clearly more closely associated in common usage than the biblical figure with "Hagar". 65.94.44.124 (talk) 05:43, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
Discussion
- Any additional comments:
- Sadly, I don't think it's at all obvious that this is the primary meaning any more. At a guess I'd back Hagar the Horrible if anything. My sad experience is that in Australia most primary school students don't know who Noah is, let alone Hagar. So I'd need some evidence that the OT Hagar is still well known worldwide. It may be; Maybe Islam and Judaism are doing better. Andrewa (talk) 07:20, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
- That's not sad; it's encouraging that fewer people are being fed mythology in the primary school years. Powers T 15:56, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
- No, it's sad. It's a form of illiteracy not to know who Noah is. 216.8.171.180 (talk) 19:16, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
- Agree. Again, my experience is that the mythology is stronger than ever, and what is missing is the knowledge on which an informed decision should be based. It's on both sides, at all ages; The Creation Science debate, for example, is typically held on both sides to be based on inconsistencies between Origin of Species and the Bible. So at a minimum one would expect the proponents of both sides to have read both texts. I have yet to meet one who has, on either side. Andrewa (talk) 20:12, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
- Origin of Species is hardly the be-all and end-all of evolution texts, and it doesn't even begin to address the many other fields that Creation Science claims to (such as abiogenesis, geologic history, astrophysics). The creation science "debate", rather, goes to the very heart of what science is; one need not have read the Bible to know that "God did it" is not a scientific explanation. Powers T 21:30, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
- Agree with both your points, but I think they miss the main issues completely. Origin is still a jolly good read: Approachable to the layperson; Awesome in the modesty of the conclusions it draws from a wealth of data; The foundation paper in the field; Still a standard reference. It's hard to think of anything that approaches it in any other branch of science. It's also widely misquoted. Both sides would benefit greatly from reading it! As for "God did it" not being a scientific explanation, that depends on the context surely (;-> but the Bible clearly says that it's not a very helpful explanation. Andrewa (talk) 05:54, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
- Origin of Species is hardly the be-all and end-all of evolution texts, and it doesn't even begin to address the many other fields that Creation Science claims to (such as abiogenesis, geologic history, astrophysics). The creation science "debate", rather, goes to the very heart of what science is; one need not have read the Bible to know that "God did it" is not a scientific explanation. Powers T 21:30, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
- Noah, maybe, but Hagar? Powers T 21:30, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
- Do you even know of Hagar's significance in Islam? Srnec (talk) 23:20, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
- Sure, but it should be of no consequence whatsoever to elementary students. For older students, one could make an argument that she ought to be mentioned in a unit on the mythology of Islam, but most non-Muslim students don't get into that level of detail even at the secondary school level. Powers T 00:16, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
- Hagar is a very important plot element in the story that culminates in the incarnation, actually. Probably more important than Noah, just not quite so newsworthy. Andrewa (talk) 05:54, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
- Sure, but it should be of no consequence whatsoever to elementary students. For older students, one could make an argument that she ought to be mentioned in a unit on the mythology of Islam, but most non-Muslim students don't get into that level of detail even at the secondary school level. Powers T 00:16, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
- Do you even know of Hagar's significance in Islam? Srnec (talk) 23:20, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
- Agree. Again, my experience is that the mythology is stronger than ever, and what is missing is the knowledge on which an informed decision should be based. It's on both sides, at all ages; The Creation Science debate, for example, is typically held on both sides to be based on inconsistencies between Origin of Species and the Bible. So at a minimum one would expect the proponents of both sides to have read both texts. I have yet to meet one who has, on either side. Andrewa (talk) 20:12, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
- No, it's sad. It's a form of illiteracy not to know who Noah is. 216.8.171.180 (talk) 19:16, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
- That's not sad; it's encouraging that fewer people are being fed mythology in the primary school years. Powers T 15:56, 9 December 2010 (UTC)