Talk:Internet censorship in Australia

MORE INFORMATION PLEASE

The article should be edited to give more information about the life-destroying effects of paedophilia. For example, the victims of paedophilia are six times more likely to commit suicide and are eight times more likely to repeatedly attempt suicide throughout their lives. The victims of abuse in childhood are three times more likely to suffer from depression or to commit suicide with the victims of paedophila being the most affected with a 40% higher number of them suffering from depression than the victims of all the other types of abuse. This is important information and will give the reader a much greater understanding of the issue, including the damaging effects mentioned above.Link to Proof of Life-Destroying Effects of Child Pornography

Thank You!--86.44.252.83 (talk) 22:56, 15 December 2010 (UTC) {AutoArchivingNotice|small=yes|age=30|bot=MiszaBot|botlink=User:MiszaBot/Archive HowTo}}

Current Policy

Current policy seems to be against getting this firewall passed. Do you think it's still a good idea to keep raising the issue about how bad this would be if it was passed? Because after all, this could turn Australia into China if it goes into effect. AVKent882 (talk) 01:05, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

It's happening. See reference [5] for the official press release. We here in Australia are screwed. I am surprised that this page was not edited earlier than four days after the announcement! Come on, people! Those of you who know these things need to keep pages like this updated! KatCassidy (talk) 08:37, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for adding the ref. I changed your take a little, as it can't happen without Senate support, and neither the Libs nor the Greens support it. See below for snow report. cojoco (talk) 05:09, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Do you have a cite for the Libs not supporting it? My local Federal member (Libs) won't tell me outright that the Libs don't support it. I can't find anything online that definitively states they won't support it.

I think it's important. At the moment, the entry gives the impression that censorship won't happen because of the statement in the opening paragraph that opposition parties' support is needed to pass it in the Senate. I'm not convinced it is as cut-and-dried as that and my view is that the Libs are prevaricating and would support it immediately if they could get some votes out of it (rather than treating it as a human rights issue). I would like to see that sentence removed from the article. maturin (talk) 00:42, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Your correct. We can't know or verify future voting intentions so the statement you identified should be removed because it is crystal balling. - Shiftchange (talk) 02:54, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

No, it isn't, because the opposition doesn't support the filter. Nick Minchin's comments are already cited in the article [1] [2] Has there been any change in their position since the beginning of last year? cojoco (talk) 03:50, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Also, the cited article stated that the plan is currently "scuttled" due to the lack of support, so we are not crystal balling, we are simply citing a source. Again, has anything changed in this respect? cojoco (talk) 03:52, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

It may be worth looking into again, and I think there may be further developments. Minchin has resigned his portfolio, and there has been a change in the Liberal leadership since the referenced comments. On the other hand, the new minister doesn't seem particularly supportive either [3] [4], but Tony Abbott appeared to support it on QandA last night. Also, Labor is much stricter on party discipline, and there is still a chance enough Liberals will support it in the Senate to get it through, but that is certainly my own original research without a reference for that. At the very least, a few updated references might be in order. StuartH (talk) 15:07, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Bit more on the Liberals' policy here: [5]. Seems Abbott isn't as strongly in favour of it as I thought. StuartH (talk) 18:47, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Filtering technology used by Exetel

This text was inserted, and then deleted, several times:

Exetel have been trialling a product distributed by Watchdog International. This product is most likely the Marshal8e6 R3000 as it is marketed for ISP use. The Marshal8e6 R3000 or e86 R3000 is not only capable of URL filtering, but boasts the capability to limit both P2P and IM Internet traffic. This product also claims being capable of Proxy Pattern filtering, so the use of an external Proxy Server may be limited should it be required by law.

I don't necessarily disagree with the reasons for the revert, but the "filtering technology" section is a bit light-on at the moment. Can we get this material from a WP:RS in a suitable form for adding to the article? cojoco (talk) 23:03, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

The source given is a forum [6] which is a WP:SPS. The information was added by IP 58.96.85.84, which is registered to Exetel [7], creating a potential for a WP:COI. I don't have any objection to the information itself, but it needs more traditional sourcing to establish the notability.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 06:21, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

ED likely to be blocked by the filter

I included a statement from the SMH article which indicated that ED is likely to be blocked by the proposed filter. This was reverted as WP:CRYSTAL, but I believe this to be inappropriate. To quote WP,

"It is appropriate to report discussion and arguments about the prospects for success of future proposals and projects or whether some development will occur, if discussion is properly referenced."

cojoco (talk) 10:42, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Here is what the Sydney Morning Herald story said: "On the Australian Communication and Media Authority's blacklist of "refused classification" websites, which was leaked in March last year, encyclopediadramatica.com was included. This means the entire site will most likely be blocked under the government's forthcoming internet filtering plan." True, but still has an element of WP:CRYSTAL, as does the whole ACMA filtering proposal at the moment. The article should avoid extrapolation as far as possible, and stick to the Australian government's known dislike of ED.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 10:51, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Why? A WP:RS is doing the extrapolation, so why should we not cite it? If the SMH says that it is likely that ED will get filtered, then that's a well-referenced statement which can be inserted into an article. In any case, I'm pretty sure that WP:CRYSTAL is usually used for deciding whether an article is appropriate, not a tiny statements in an article, especially one which is well referenced. I think that this article needs to cite discussions of what may or may not be blocked, because the government has not yet specified if the RC category will be changed at all if the filter is introduced. Stephen Conroy has stated that it would be limited to the "worst of the worst", but then again, he has not exactly spelled out if anything would be removed from the RC category. cojoco (talk) 11:10, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

This is a borderline call, but my understanding as a non-Australian is that the whole ACMA scheme could fail to be passed into law because it is so controversial. I'm not disputing that ED would be on the list if the scheme did go through, though. (See also [8])--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 11:16, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Your understanding might be correct. However, speaking as an Australian, and in my opinion, it looks like the scheme cannot possibly be implemented before the next federal election, but it is quite likely that that ALP will gain a majority in the Senate in 2011. If this is the case, then we will see if the filter is a genuine policy, or just a fake policy created to placate a single Christian Senator. I wouldn't say that it is "too controversial to be implemented", as the controversy is basically a bunch of nerds who care about civil liberties. After all, a mandatory Internet filter was pretty much implemented in the UK without anybody saying boo: how did that happen? Anyway, this is not the main point: it is possible that the filter will be implemented in Australia, and there is a lot of discussion of the filter in the media, and a lot of uncertainty about what the filter might entail. For this reason alone, I think it is important to keep track of citeable and/or factual comments about the likely reality of the filter, instead of a whole lot of "he said/she said" stuff which dominates the articles.

tl;dr If the SMH says that ED is likely to be blocked, then I think this is relevant to the article. cojoco (talk) 11:31, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

IWF isn't mandatory, it only covers child sex abuse material (vs RC), and it happened back in the days when newsgroups were the main means of distribution and so ISPs actually hosted the content on their servers. TRS-80 (talk) 16:14, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

When it's present at 98% of ISPs, the government wants to raise it to 100%, the blocklist is secret, and it has blocked Wikipedia, can you please explain the difference? Just to avoid being a complete rant, I'm wondering what to do in the article about all of the statements from people, such as Nick Minchin, which have been overtaken by events. Should they stay for historical interest, or should they go because they are no longer relevant? cojoco (talk) 22:57, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

It's not 98% of ISPs, it's 98% of users use an ISP that subscribes to IWF, there's plenty of small ISPs that don't (some who advertise that as a feature), and the UK government backed down on making it 100%. I'm not saying it's good that it still exists mostly for web filtering, just that its origins are much more understandable in their lack of controversy than pure web filtering. Note that Australia already has a secret list of newsgroups banned by law that only civil libertarians care about.

As for historical statements, given that an important part of the article is how the Rudd government has changed the scope over time, historical context is pretty important. TRS-80 (talk) 09:17, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

True 'blacklist' never leaked?

It was claimed above that

[the] blacklist of "refused classification" websites [...] was leaked [...]

In fact, Senator Conroy unambiguously and strenuously denied that the true list was ever leaked. See: [9]

See also guidelines of what constitutes RC material at [10]
—DIV (138.194.12.32 (talk) 06:08, 1 April 2010 (UTC))

Reviewing the transcript, I accept that the Minister in fact acknowledged that something "closer to" the true list was leaked on the second occasion. So I retract my statement above that the denial was unambiguous. He made it clear that the true list was not identical to any of the leaked lists, but did not clarify what the precise differences were — for example, whether or not the true list was a subset (component) of one of the leaked lists.

—DIV (138.194.12.32 (talk) 06:43, 1 April 2010 (UTC))

The March 2009 leaked list may not have been exact, but it clearly came from a well placed source. Stephen Conroy's denial has to be seen in the context of a politician trying to avoid embarrassment.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 07:19, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Especially a politician such as Stephen Conroy who cannot seem to give a straight answer to anything. That reference appears to have linkrotted; Newscorp links seem especially susceptible. All the Fairfax links, from The Age and the SMH, seem to have survived intact. cojoco (talk) 20:47, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I've replace "reportedly leaked" with "leaked", as I don't regard SC as a WP:RS, and he didn't ever actually deny that the list was real. However, it is not clear that the ACMA blacklist will be the list used for censorship, so I've added a "presumably" to the statement that the ACMA list would form the basis for the filter. cojoco (talk) 01:15, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Conroy does have an unfortunate habit of not answering questions, but reliable sources seem to confirm the second list's authenticity and it's not difficult to read between the lines. One thing that should be noted is that it was a list of "prohibited content" websites that leaked, not "refused classification" websites. There is a substantial difference between the two under Australian law, since even MA15+ content can be prohibited if it doesn't use a certified age verification mechanism. The scope of the filter was formerly the full "prohibited content" list, but it has since been tightened to "refused classification". Our classification system is certainly confusing. StuartH (talk) 02:13, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but this is now deviating from objective viewpoints when we say "I think this source is reliable, but I don't think that source is reliable". Consider the first leak. It now seems to be accepted that the first leak was not the blacklist; however, I'm sure that a number of newspapers would have carried reports saying that the real blacklist had been leaked. It's not that those newspapers aren't reliable sources: it's just that there's a difference between a reliable source and an infallible source. Since those reliable sources were clearly wrong about the first leak, there's no reason they couldn't be wrong about the second leak. After all, they also want to sell newspapers!

Yes, politicians have got a self-interest. But, aside from their own morals, they would need to balance the benefits of lying with the very real risks of being found out, and then suffering worse consequences (both personally and for the party). My own opinion is that politicians are more likely to 'accidentally leave out' crucial information, or avoid questions etc. when they are being dishonest. What (I don't think) they don't normally do is issue very clear untrue statements. Misleading statements, maybe. But the strength of the denial says to me that it is credible. You can have your own opinion, but whether that fit's into WP's philosophy about neutrality is a bit more iffy.

Some recent WP edits have it that Conroy "didn't deny" that the second leak was the real blacklist. He did deny it, and that was the point of citing the Q&A transcript. As I already noted above, he did not clarify what the precise differences were. Nevertheless, he specifically and clearly stated that both leaks were different to the real blacklist. We might speculate, for example, that the second leak was from an ISP that had added their own set of banned sites to the original 'true' blacklist. For the record, it should be noted that Conroy stated that he had never even seen the blacklist himself, and was relying on the ACMA to judge whether the lists were the same or not (and what the differences were).

Personally I think the "reportedly" should be retained in the introduction. (After all, I added it.) It is neutral, factual, and doesn't undermine the reality that the leak was reported on!

—DIV (138.194.12.32 (talk) 05:16, 8 April 2010 (UTC))

I think "reportedly" is a needlessly weasel-y qualifier. It has been reported in reliable sources, and can go straight in unless we find compelling opposing sources. We don't normally add "reportedly" to claims. StuartH (talk) 05:37, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

The two lists were actually very different. The first list appeared to come out of a "Net Alert" list supplied by the ISP, and contained porn and gambling sites. The true ACMA blacklist doesn't go to any ISP, and SC never revealed any sites on the second list which were not on the ACMA blacklist. Indeed, he agreed that the most embarrassing errors on the leaked list were actually on the ACMA blacklist, including the Henson photos, and the QLD dentist. As the ACMA blacklist is changing all the time, it is very unlikely that any leaked list would match the current ACMA list exactly. In light of all of these factors, his quibble about the accuracy of the list don't seem to be very important, and many RS say that it's the ACMA list. DIV, you complain about "I think this source is reliable, but I don't think that source is reliable": As I understand it, the SMH is regarded as a WP:RS, especially as they talked to WL about the provenance of the list, and can be supposed to have more reliable information than we do. Also as I understand it, SC isn't, as he is not expected to have fact checkers for everything he says, and any comment by an individual is regarded more as opinion than fact. I also disagree that the papers were wrong about the first leak, as I don't think that they ever actually said that it was the ACMA blacklist, only that WL said that it was. For all of these reasons, I agree with Stuart that "reportedly" is weaselly, when everyone seems to agree that the source was the ACMA list. cojoco (talk) 07:28, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

There is a problem with the 25 March 2009 section, because both of the links are dead with WP:LINKROT. What matters is that Stephen Conroy initially denied that the list Wikileaks obtained was genuine, but accepted on 26 March that the second list was reasonably accurate.[11]--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 07:40, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Note that WP:LINKROT is not a reason to remove the statements related to the missing references. cojoco (talk) 00:33, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Effect on Wikipedia?

How wide of a swath of articles will be blocked to Australians by a single link encyclopediadramatica.com/Australia ? This is actually a useful practical safeguard for American editors, since by blocking Australians from reading our work we can protect ourselves from lawsuits using their particularly exaggerated definition of libel. Wnt (talk) 21:53, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia and Encyclopædia Dramatica are hosted under United States law, where they would have First Amendment protection. Also, Wikipedia articles cannot link to Dramatica articles. There is a link to the main page of ED (which is reasonably uncontroversial), but the rest of the site is blocked by the spam blacklist.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 07:04, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

What I mean is that things that link to any banned site will be "filtered" (NewSpeak for "censored") in Australia. But would it be only the single offending Wikipedia page with the link that is blocked, or all Wikipedia, or something in between? Oh, and is the "http://" required for a page to be blocked? (I'd doubt it) Wnt (talk) 19:14, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

This is all rather speculative, since the ACMA scheme may never be passed into law. However, it is not giving away any secrets to say that logging in to the secure server on Wikipedia (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Special:UserLogin) prevents local eavesdropping on the pages being visited. Short of blocking the whole of Wikipedia, access to individual pages could never be restricted.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 19:32, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Surely they could simply prohibit the https connections (as I understand it crypto has never been all that secure of a right) or [other obnoxious things]. (Admittedly this strays from useful talk - I'm hoping mainly for some source that explains how large the scope of a ban on a site with a link has to be) Wnt (talk) 19:59, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

SC or ACMA has said that the filter is not on whole sites, but only on individual pages. If https connections don't let the proxy see which page you are visiting, then I really can't see how this would work. These seems like a somewhat glaring inconsistency. cojoco (talk) 23:59, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Conroy hasn't actually stated what is supposed to happen for HTTPS sites, but it's one of the (many) questions he's received on notice [12]. I wouldn't rule out them considering a man-in-the-middle attack. And while it's drifting even further into speculation and original research, there are still other issues that will remain if you take HTTPS out of the picture. The inclusion of a wikipedia article on the blacklist will repeat all the problems the IWF faced over its censorship of an album cover here - with all wikipedia traffic passing through the filters and resolving to a small number of IP addresses, users will be unable to contribute anonymously, may be unable to create new accounts, and will experience significant slowdowns in their connection speed. I also believe the filter doesn't work with query strings, so you'll just be able to access the content by going to http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stephen_Conroy instead of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Conroy. StuartH (talk) 05:26, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

A HTTPS site is unlikely to be hosting child porn or other illegal content. The issuers of SSL certificates insist on rigorous identification of the purchaser of the certificate, mainly as a means of preventing fraudulent financial transactions via an appparently "safe" site. It will be interesting to hear what the Australian government has to say about HTTPS sites, since they are one of the many reasons why the ACMA proposal has holes in it.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 11:14, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Just a reminder that Wikipedia's article talk pages are not a forum, I understand you're talking about what could happen if the Government is successful but this should be kept article related. Bidgee (talk) 11:20, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough, but I'm glad that this discussion has thrown up a link to some more technical details about HTTPS which could be incorporated in the article at some point. cojoco (talk) 00:38, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Possible vandalism?

Resolved

 – Vandalism removed. Ottre 14:58, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

This article has recently changed significantly, and at one point states that "over 9,000" websites will be blocked by the filter, with no sourcing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.219.217.241 (talk) 14:46, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Maybe so, but it has said 9,000 for a long time now, and the nearby ref has disappeared. The article hasn't actually changed much in the month or so. Any ideas when it changed? cojoco (talk) 04:24, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Filter submissions published

Plenty of news articles about this:

• http://www.arnnet.com.au/article/340516/public_weighs_internet_filter_plans/
• http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/340524/telstra_optus_disagree_isp_filter_blocking_notification_page/
• http://www.theaustralian.com.au/australian-it/conroys-filter-plan-unworkable-google/story-e6frgakx-1225844270444
• http://www.zdnet.com.au/anonymous-threatens-further-attacks-339301988.htm
• http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/conroys-internet-censorship-agenda-slammed-by-tech-giants-20100323-qt83.html
• http://www.arnnet.com.au/article/340550/microsoft_google_yahoo_speak_isp_filter_consultation/
• http://www.arnnet.com.au/article/340551/isv_internet_filter_threatens_national_security/
• http://www.zdnet.com.au/don-t-review-filter-blacklist-christian-group-339301998.htm
• http://www.itnews.com.au/News/170365,vividwireless-owner-proposes-carrier-license-fee-hike.aspx

TRS-80 (talk) 05:08, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Possibly deserves a whole section to itself? cojoco (talk) 22:51, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

ACMA blacklist

It is questionable whether the full ACMA blacklist as published by Wikileaks meets WP:EL. It contains known porn sites along with the foolish mistakes, and could be misused.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 06:03, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

There are numerous port sites linked from Wikipedia— in the appropriate context of course— and the overt mistakes are precisely why the list is as interesting as it is. I could buy the argument that there is some risk of misuse, but the list is already out there and nothing we do here can prevent that. Without access to the substance of censorship people are left assuming "it wouldn't effect me", so access to these kinds of lists is important. --Gmaxwell (talk) 00:28, 8 September 2010 (UTC)