Talk:Avalokiteśvara

I've noticed that only the Wade-Giles version of transliteration of the Chinese name is used. What is the Pinyin form with the tone markers?

124.61.6.120 (talk) 06:12, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

I think diety is a very inapropriate term. Worship may also be misinterpreted. Dustin Asby 08:23, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. - Nat Krause 09:01, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Disagreed. Guan Yin in particular is a deity worshipped by millions who couldn't give a fig about theological hairsplitting. But can you suggest better terms? Jpatokal 12:35, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The fact that the people venerating Guan Yin do not care about theological hairsplitting, while quite true, does not justify inaccurary in an encyclopedia. I'll work on coming up with an alternative. - Nat Krause 13:37, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I changed "deity" to "bodhisattva". I wouldn't mind at all going with something more general, but I'm not sure that would be true. In any event, we would have to specificy "most widely ... other than Shakyamuni Buddha" and even then, I'm not sure that Avalokitesvara's cult is really more widespread than Amitabha's. - Nat Krause 11:58, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Amitabha/Amida venerators are definatly more prevalent.Dustin Asby 23:56, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Have either of you ever been to Asia? Your average man on the street (in notionally Buddhist countries like China or Thailand) has no idea who Shakyamuni is, may recognize Amitabha from the magical "Namuamidafa" bumper stickers pasted on taxis to protect them from traffic accidents, but it's Guan Yin who gets the little grannies, education mamas and grizzled fishermen alike waving their joss sticks at the local temple. An active "Goddess of Mercy" is a very easily digested Virgin Mary-esque concept, whereas Amida meditating in his Pure Land is too abstract.

Now, among people who actually actively understand some Buddhist doctrine, the Amidist schools are certainly the most popular — but that's a different kettle of fish. Jpatokal 04:19, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I live in China, but I can't say that I have talked to that many people about religion. I would be very surprised to learn that people have never heard of "the Buddha" (佛祖) and I've talked to a few educated but otherwise ordinary people who know the name 释迦牟尼 -- I'm not sure if that's the distinction you're making. As to whether the common people are more dedicated to Guan Yin or Amitabha, I have no idea, but I have no reason to doubt you. - Nat Krause 10:29, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

How is Avalokitesvara pronounced?

How do you pronounce Avalokitesvara, especially which syllables are stressed? Thank you 85.124.176.91 15:22, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

If anyone's watching this board, I too want to know what syllables are accented. Is it like some other old languages, where nobody knows and there isn't a definitive pronunciation? --Munge 05:33, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

The most accented syllable is teś (as in John Tesh); the first A is also stressed. Roughly: AH-va-lo-kee-TESH-va-ra. --The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 13:42, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

It's AH-wa-low-kee-TESH-wa-ra

Two things to note: Where I have transliterated it as "wa", you pronounce the "w" as a letter in between a "v" and a "w" (hard to explain). Also, the when pronouncing the "r", you simply tap your tongue against the middle of the top alveolar ridge (the ridge at the roof of your mouth). This is called an alveolar tap Armyrifle (talk) 15:49, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Adding Mongolia's "Migjid Janraisig"

After or among the Tibetan Paragraph?; open to suggestions and/or brutal editing.Nhrenton 12:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Theravada

The article said: "In the Theravada tradition of Southeast Asia, Avalokiteśvara is known as Lokeśvara (Lord of the World)." I took this out, since I don't think Avalokiteśvara is known in Theravada at all. Please correct me if I'm wrong.—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 06:30, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

More Migjid Janraisig

I can get this name in Cyrillic if desired; how shall that be handled in the name box? English AND Cyrillic? Also, Migjid Janraisig seems to be the more popular (perhaps more nationalistically Mongolian?) name for Avaloskitevara. Should it perhaps be listed first in the first paragraph? Furthermore--doea anyone have suggestions for how to handle the name Migjid Janraisig in stories withina purely Mongolian context. As time permits, I shall try to introduce something on the renaissance of this deity in Mongolia.Nhrenton 13:20, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I think we probably shouldn't put the Cyrillic writing of Migjid Jainraising in the article. This spelling doesn't have a very long history and isn't closely associated with Buddhism. Please put the Cyrillic script on this talk page and we can add it later if we decide to do so.

As for Mongolia-specific information, I recommend a section titled "Mongolian beliefs concerning Migjid Jainraisig" to be placed immediately after the section about Tibet.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 06:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Nat. Here the Cyrillic: Мигжид Жанрайсиг .Mind you, there's also classical Mongolian horizontal script (which is perhaps more theologically correct), but it's a tricky font issue. I'm off to Asia until the new year; I'm afraid I'll only be able to give you a poor effort (being an Anglican/Episcopalian); I'll put it here--if you think it'll do as a start, feel free to add it in your recommended space. I'm guessing about some of the names. I fear it gets off topic out of ignorance; about all I could divine from it was that Mongolians tend to be Gelupga.

By the way--Is that Xongsim name a Chinese name from Inner Mongolia?

Hmmm, shouldn't Мигжид Жанрайсиг become "Migjid Janraisig" in English, rather than "Migjid Jainraisig"? Also, I don't know where "Xongsim" comes from, but it doesn't look like any kind of Chinese that I'm familiar with. I guess there's an off chance it could derive somehow from the Mandarin Chinese "Guan Shi Yin".—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 23:22, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

"Мэгжид Жанрайсиг" wins in a frequency contest with Google. Doesn't make much of a difference: /e/ and /i/ in the first syllable have merged (into /i/) in Ulaanbaatar dialect. I can't make much sense of the Hangsim as well, but as for Nidüber üjegci: I should be pretty surprised if you find any Mongolian who's not a philologist and knows this ancient term. I would bet 10.000 Togrog that if you walk into Gandan and ask from the first 10 young (max. 25 years) monks you encounter, less than three of them will know. (Older monks will probably not know the term but won't fail to deduce its pretty obvious meaning.) G Purevdorj (talk) 21:58, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Хонсим is frequently found in the pre-revolutionary literature. This beautiful word is used in combination with "bodhisattva": хонсим бодисад. I've never thought of the meaning, but this talk made me interested in it. Maybe I saw it in Injinashi or in the Novel of Green Tara or somewhere else. As for Megjid or Migjid, is it Мэлмий нээгч, that who opens the eyes. Nidüber üjegci (Нүдээр үзэгч) is perhaps another version. In either case, is Mig or Meg in Migjid "eye" in Tibetan? Is Migjid Janraisig only one of the many forms of the deity? Another form being Мянган Мутарт Жанрайсиг (Chenrezig with Thousand Arms) ? Gantuya eng (talk) 11:33, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Resurgence of Worship in Mongolia

The Mongolian name of Migjid Janraisig means "the Lord Who Looks in Every Direction;" Nidü-ber üjegci means "He Who Looks with the Eyes." While the worship of Avalokitesvara was repressed during Communist rule under the Stalinist rule of Horloogyin Choybalsan, the deity has enjoyed a renaissance since the 1990s. The dominant trend within Mongolian Buddhism is the Tibetan Gelupga sect; as a result, Mongolians hold the Dalai Lama as Avalokitesvara's earthly manifestation. A 26.5 metre statue of the deity was rebuilt in 1996 at the Gandantegchinlen Khiid Monastery, where an active monastic community has blossomed.

(There is an article about Mongolian Buddhism on the Gendantegchinlen Khiid Monastery article, but I find it heavy going--and not very specific re Avalokitesvra. You might be able to read it more profitably.)Nhrenton 14:26, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

tibetans view on Chenrezig

The story of Buddha Amithaba's task to Chenrezig is findable in a commentary by Lodro Tulku. --Kt66 22:13, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Avalokiteshvara/Chenrezig

Quick question here! Am I correct in thinking that Avalokiteshvara is the Sanskrit name and Chenrezig is the Tibetan name? I know that the Sanskrit pronunciation of Om Mani Padma Hum is described as 'the mantra of Avalokiteshvara' whereas the Tibetan pronunciation Om Mani Peme Hung is described as 'the mantra of Chenrezig'.

Yes, that would be what the very first paragraph of the article says. Jpatokal 13:29, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry. Didn't read it properly! (the lay out of the page makes it easy to miss the 'in Tibetan' bit) But maybe it should be right at the start - Avalokiteśvara or Avalokiteshvar, अवलोकितेश्वर (Sanskrit, lit. "Lord who looks down") (Tibetan: Chenrezig). Or maybe not?

Name

Is Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara's name pronounced [ˌa.ˈval.ɔ.kit.eʃ.ˈva.ɹa], or is it a different pronunciation? ionas68224|talk|contribs|email 22:14, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

In Sanskrit, I think it is [ʌʋʌˌlokiˈteɕʋʌrʌ].—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 05:21, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Merge discussion

Oppose merge. While they are considered to be the same, they are culturally quite different. A combined article could not go into the depth that separate articles could. Cundi 14:38, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. The articles were originally the same, but were split off in 2004 (see [1]) and, IMHO, quite successfully. Jpatokal 16:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. The figure of Guan Yin (Quan Am in Vietnam) requires separate treatment. Many people in Vietnam who are very familiar with Quan Am have never heard of Avalokiteshvara. There is no doubt an historical connection, but Quan Am is now a separate figure. Merging these two articles would be like merging the article on the French language with the article on Latin, on the theory that historically French is an offshoot of Latin. DoktorMax 06:29, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment. I am getting rid of the merge box. There are 3 opposes and no reason for merges. Benjwong 01:31, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Can't understand Chinese and Japanese words.

I am not a Buddhist nor Chinese speaker nor a Japanese speaker. I could not understand some statements due to the use of Japanese or Chinese words without the English IAST with them. Few examples:

• In Etymology:

Lokeśvara-rāja ( 盧迦委斯諦, lit. 'King of world sovereignty') is another epithet of Avalokiteśvara. The Chinese interpretation of Lokeśvara-rāja 世自在王 is 'World Sovereign King'. īśvara 自在 n. lord, adj. free; unrestrained; unrestricted; liberated. In Chinese Dharma-character school 法相宗, 自在 vb. means 主宰 to dominate; to dictate; to govern; to predominate; to rule or to reign.

Please write which language it is for words like 盧迦委斯諦,自在. Write English IAST words for 法相宗, 自在. It would be appreciated if written in this format: e.g Avalokiteśvara or Avalokiteshvar, (Sanskrit: अवलोकितेश्वर , lit. "Lord who looks down") ie Word in English (Language: in local script , lit. meaning).

• In lead:

Avalokiteśvara is known as Guan Yin ( 觀音)

Which language:觀音????

• Mayana Account:

Six forms of Avalokiteśvara in Mahayana (defined by Tian-tai, terrace) 天臺六觀音: 1. 大悲觀音great compassion, 2. 大慈觀音great loving-kindness, 3. 獅子無畏觀音lion-courage, 4. 大光普照觀音universal light, 5. 天人丈夫觀音leader amongst gods and men, 6. 大梵深遠觀音, 大梵至聖觀音 the great omnipresent Brahma

Meaning given but the terms not given in English, same applies to the Chinese column in Manifestations table and Vajrayana para:

Seven forms of Avalokiteśvara in esoteric Buddhism 密教七觀音: 1. 不空羅索觀音not empty (or unerring) net, or lasso. Amoghapāśa. 2. 千手千眼面觀音1000-hand and 1000-eye, vara-sahasrabhuja-locana/Sahasrabhujasahasranetra, 3. 馬頭觀音horseheaded, Hayagriva, 4. 十一面觀音11-faced, Ekadasamukha, 5. 准提觀音 Cundi, 6. 如意輪觀音wheel of sovereign power, Cintamani-cakra; 7. 聖觀音, 正觀音holy one, 聖觀自在arya Lokiteśvara, the Holy sovereign beholder of the world (loka), a translation of īśvara, means ‘ruler’ or ‘sovereign’.

I request the editors to address these concerns.--Redtigerxyz 06:50, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I suggest to remove the following text:

"Lokeśvara-rāja ( 盧迦委斯諦, lit. 'King of world sovereignty') is another epithet of Avalokiteśvara. The Chinese interpretation of Lokeśvara-rāja 世自在王 is 'World Sovereign King'. īśvara 自在 n. lord, adj. free; unrestrained; unrestricted; liberated. In Chinese Dharma-character school 法相宗, 自在 vb. means 主宰 to dominate; to dictate; to govern; to predominate; to rule or to reign"

from the etymology section, because this section is about the etymology of the word Avalokiteshvara only. Moreover, the Chinese interpretation of Lokeśvara-rāja seems to be the same as the Sanskrit meaning, hence it is not necessary to explain it here. Lokeśvara-rāja may be mentioned in the intro, that's sufficient. Moreover, the meaning of the words "In Chinese Dharma-character school" is not clear to the average reader. 89.54.175.192 13:00, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Avalokiteśvara = Guan Yin

Avalokiteśvara = Guan Yin -- WonYong^Talk 23:05, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes and no, Guan Yin is a manifestation of Avalokiteshvara, but there are many more manifestations of Avalokiteshvara, like 4-armed and 1000-armed Avalokiteshvara. So yes, a horse is an animal, but not all animals are horses...rudy 23:32, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but it seems that there were changes as Avalokiteśvara became Guan Yin, and as both articles are already lengthy, I think it best to keep them separate, but with appropriate links. Aleta 23:34, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

There were already multiple opposes on this merge before. See above. Benjwong 03:45, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

The Picture from Plaosan Temple in Java

It's a nice picture, but I wonder what basis there is for saying that it is a picture of Avalokiteshvara. The figure just doesn't have any distinguishing features that would identify it as Avalokiteshvara, as opposed to some other bodhisattva or holy person.

Sanskrit/Nepali name in Infobox

I don't know whether or not it's right, but I changed the infobox to conform with its template. Presumably this was an older form of the infobox (I couldn't find the revision in question), but at some point it got changed and thereby broken, perhaps because that form of the name is Nepali and not Sanskrit? I'm guessing and don't know the languages, but any such change (incorporating another language) would need to be made in parallel in the Bodhisattva Infobox template -- which, incidentally, uses Avalokiteśvara as an example of its usage. /Ninly (talk) 20:20, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

LGBT?

According to LGBT themes in mythology, this figure is somehow LGBT-related. Does anyone know how, even if it is disputed? If not, i've tagged it for removalYobMod 13:52, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

I presume it's a really far-fetched reference to the fact that, while originally male, his version as Guan Yin is usually depicted as female. Jpatokal (talk) 16:00, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

A call for critical review of....

the following books...

• http://books.google.com/books?as_q=&num=10&lr=lang_en&as_brr=0&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_brr=0&as_pt=ALLTYPES&lr=lang_en&as_vt=avalokitesvara&as_auth=&as_pub=&as_sub=&as_drrb_is=b&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=&as_isbn=&as_issn=

^^^^
FYI

• http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=allintitle%3A+avalokitesvara&lr=lang_en&as_sdt=2000&as_ylo=&as_vis=1

--124.78.226.174 (talk) 11:03, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Avalokiteśvara => Avalokitasvara

It should now be apparent that the original name is "Avalokitasvara", and was for around 600 years during the bulk of development of Mahayana Buddhism in India. "Avalokiteśvara" is a different modification of this that changes the meaning and implications of the bodhisattva's characteristics. For example, in many Mahayana sutras, "Avalokitasvara" is associated with sound and meditation methods involving listening to sounds. These would have all been "Avalokitasvara" in the original Sanskrit (predating 7th century). In the Chinese translations, they were basically all "Guanshiyin" or "Guanyin" (before Xuanzang's time) which is again an exact translation of "Avalokitasvara". Although an argument for keeping "Avalokiteśvara" could be made for purposes of its use in Tibetan Buddhism (which inherited the later Sanskrit terms for some uses in mantras), in fact "Chenrezig" is more widely attested in Tibet. Furthermore, the main mantra associated with Avalokitasvara in Tibet, has no direct reference to a name (om manipadme hum), so this does not cause a conflict. That leaves the West as the only place that uses "Avalokiteśvara" as a general purpose name, and we now know that the name does not apply before the 7th century when the overwhelming majority of Mahayana texts were authored. For these reasons, I believe the page and its contents should use "Avalokitasvara" as the more correct and accurate general term. A redirect from Avalokiteśvara and its alternate romanizations would be automatic. Tengu800 (talk) 12:30, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Please see WP:COMMONNAME. In short, we use the most common English name (Avalokiteśvara), not a historical name that "should" be more common but is not. Jpatokal (talk) 14:23, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

If it is renamed that way, most people may be confused or think that we made a misspelling unless they read the corresponding lines in the article. But many people visit an article not to read it all but just to see the bit that most interests them. :) Gantuya eng (talk) 14:42, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

If the real policy is to use the most common name, then that would certainly be "Guanyin", which is definitely the most widely attested name for the bodhisattva in English. However, the reason we don't use this most common name, is because we think that using the Sanskrit name is more accurate. If accuracy is then a major factor as well, then it is certainly misplaced in using a name that didn't even enter into Buddhist texts before the 7th century. Tengu800 (talk) 05:21, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

"Guanyin" isn't a common name for Avalokitesvara. "Guanyin" is the name of a Boddhisattva in the Chinese Mahayana Buddhism. Even it is not pronounced that way in the other countries that accepted the Chinese Buddhism such as Korea or Japan. Avalokitesvara is the common name. Gantuya eng (talk) 05:53, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, there is no major extant Buddhist tradition uses "Avalokiteshvara" -- it's pure western revivalism. They use "Guanyin", "Kwannon", "Chenrezig", or some other localized name. "Guanshiyin Pusa" is an exact translation of "Avalokitasvara Bodhisattva", and it refers to the same bodhisattva first introduced in the Lotus Sutra. Of these various names, Guanyin has been used the most in English and therefore is the most widely attested. So if the "common name" policy really applied as you say it does, then Guanyin or Guanshiyin would be the standard name. My point is not to advocate changing the name to Guanyin, but to show that "Avalokiteshvara" was not chosen simply because it was the most common name. It was chosen because people thought (incorrectly) that it was the accurate Sanskrit name. Tengu800 (talk) 06:52, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

This is all kind of irrelevant -- we have a separate article about Guanyin, because she/he/it has diverged so much from the original. This article talks about the "original" Buddhist Avalokiteśvara, and the commonly accepted rendering of the name in the original Sanskrit is Avalokiteśvara. Jpatokal (talk) 09:05, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

The Avalokitasvara chapter of the Lotus Sutra is the earliest source for the bodhisattva. This is one of the most popular pieces of Chinese Buddhist literature, and is often read and studied as a separate sutra. To consider Guanshiyin a separate bodhisattva, a deity, or an exclusively female figure is very wrong. For much of the history of Chinese Buddhism, Guanshiyin Pusa was depicted as a male bodhisattva, often observing the sea of suffering, listening to the cries of the world. This is exactly the original Avalokitasvara of the Lotus Sutra. Tengu800 (talk) 13:59, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

I fully agree with Jpatokal except calling Guanyin "it". If you feel difficulty choosing a pronoun, please say "this Bodhisattva". Gantuya eng (talk) 12:39, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

In Ummon's words:

A monk once asked Ummon, "What is the Buddha?" Ummon answered thus: "A dried shit-stick!" Jpatokal (talk) 06:28, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

This type of teaching was never meant to be used as free license to disrespect buddhas and bodhisattvas. Tengu800 (talk) 13:59, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

You might wish to meditate a little more deeply on what Ummon is saying and why. Jpatokal (talk) 10:06, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Someone who is enlightened can even be a butcher without incurring karma, but that isn't you. Since this is Wikipedia, little things like "names" and "content" actually do matter. This is especially true on a thread about a naming proposal that you are arguing against. "Names don't matter at all, as long as they are the names I want." Tengu800 (talk) 11:57, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

That's how you shape your karma. Gantuya eng (talk) 06:48, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Bayon Temple at Angkor

--Lornshillht (talk) 13:28, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

<gallery> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Stone_image_of_Avalokitehvara,_Angkor_Thom_North_Gate.jpg%7CAvaolkitesvara / Jayavarmnan VII, Angkor Thom North Gate http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Some_of_the_stone_faces_of_Bayon_Temple,_Angkor_Thom.JPG%7CAvaolkitesvara / Jayavarmnan VII on towers of Bayon Temple, Angkor Thom

I am not a specialist in this area at all, but stumbled into this through visiting the temples at Angkor. The stunning Bayon temple, and the gate entrances to Angkor Thom, were all created under the reign of Jayavarman VII, whose military, diplomatic and imperial success is represented in this most impressive project of the Angkor Khmer empire. He was also the emperor who changed the official religion of the empire from Hinduism to Buddhism. I therefore was surprised, in the context of the relationship between Shiva and Avalaokitesvara to see only a passing reference in the article to the relationship between the carved faces of Bayon (216 faces! which are of Avaloketesvara but are said to be modelled physically on Jayavarman). Here is the reference:

"In Theravada, Lokeśvara, "the lord, ruler or sovereign beholder of the world", name of a Buddha; probably a development of the idea of Brahmā, Vishnu or Śiva as lokanātha, "lord of worlds". In Indo-China especially it refers to Avalokiteśvara, whose image or face, in masculine form, is frequently seen, e.g., at Angkor"

Given the importance of Angkor as a historical site, and the extent of public interest, I would be grateful if an expert in this field could develop this reference further in order to provide a discussion of the issues involved in this crucial concept behind the design of the massive Angkor Thom site. ~~~~

Bayon Temple at Angkor

--~~~~

I am not a specialist in this area at all, but stumbled into this through visiting the temples at Angkor. The stunning Bayon temple, and the gate entrances to Angkor Thom, were all created under the reign of Jayavarman VII, whose military, diplomatic and imperial success is represented in this most impressive project of the Angkor Khmer empire. He was also the emperor who changed the official religion of the empire from Hinduism to Buddhism. I therefore was surprised, in the context of the relationship between Shiva and Avalaokitesvara to see only a passing reference in the article to the relationship between the carved faces of Bayon (216 faces! which are of Avaloketesvara but are said to be modelled physically on Jayavarman). Here is the reference:

"In Theravada, Lokeśvara, "the lord, ruler or sovereign beholder of the world", name of a Buddha; probably a development of the idea of Brahmā, Vishnu or Śiva as lokanātha, "lord of worlds". In Indo-China especially it refers to Avalokiteśvara, whose image or face, in masculine form, is frequently seen, e.g., at Angkor"

Given the importance of Angkor as a historical site, and the extent of public interest, I would be grateful if an expert in this field could develop this reference further in order to provide a discussion of the issues involved in this crucial concept behind the design of the massive Angkor Thom site. ~~~~