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Headline text

What about bands like Blindside, boysetsfire or Thrice? Don't they have a certain christian influence? /arnewpunkt

The net is full of crappy listings, which try to mention every "Christian" band who has a shitty live tape or a picture on the internet. If we want such a list to wikipedia, there must be clear principles. Classifying by letter does not make much sense to me, as the name doesn't usually tell much about the band. I suggest the bands would be classified either by subgenre or region (country). Only major bands should be accepted, ie. bands that have several official (full-length) releases, or bands that are otherwise remarkable.

If the bands are to be classified regionally, the subgenre should be mentioned after the name, or if classified by subgenre, then vice versa. --theologist

Where's Dream Theater, P.O.D. ? [Tempus]

Dream Theater is not a Christian band, however I will add P.O.D. - AugustWinterman

Disturbed

Hold on. I like Disturbed, but their lead singer, David Draiman, is Jewish. His grandfather is a holocaust survivor. Based upon this, how is Disturbed considered Christian Metal? Can someone explain? I'm answering this. In David's biography, it said that he rebeled against his parents' religion. So, no one can TRULY know what he is without asking him themselves, and no, Disturbed is not a Christian band, they are secular.

H.I.M.

Hi, I was already familiar with the article but I went through my iTunes library and re-discovered H.I.M.'s song "The Face Of God"... I was just wondering if they have any more references to religion in any ways, and if they might be considered as Christian metal... Just wonderin'! ^^ --Zouavman Le Zouave (Talk to me! • See my edits!) 21:29, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, I don't think they are a Christian band. --E tac 22:27, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Or Metal for that matter.--Inhumer 06:38, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Its like the band lamb of God. Lambs or sheep of God in the bible are Christians and the Shepard is Jesus. The band Lamb of God is not christian at all they are a satanic band with a christian reference from the bible. Just like the song number of the beast from Iron Maiden the first i think 20 or 30 seconds comes from the book of Revelations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.10.45.248 (talk) 21:00, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Very funny. The only problem is that the band isn't made-up of Christians and isn't trying to convey a Christian message. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:06, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus on bands

Instructions

I think it is about time we established a consensus on bands that are commonly added and removed from the page. To establish a consensus of a band, add the band below as a subheading of the Bands section, then cast your vote with a bold Include or Exclude, followed by your reasoning and your signature. If you wish to change your vote later on perhaps because people Have presented a good case for including the band, Strike out your previous vote Like this, and put a new vote, reason and signature beneath your old vote.

Bands

Thousand Foot Krutch

Offering up "Move", "Bounce", and "Rawkfist" as examples. From the lyrics of the latter: "It's time to take it up a notch, and keep it locked, for all the headbangers in the parking lot. Here we come, if you're ready or not" (emph. added.) 66.177.182.13 (talk) 00:34, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Rapcore is a mix between rap and hardcore. Hardcore is a mix of metal and hardcore punk. Hardcore is dealt with in this list. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:13, 25 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hardcore punk is just what it says, the style and attitude of punk taken to the extreme. Otherwise, how could Metalcore be considered a fusion genre? Hardcore should not be dealt with on this list, except for bands that have been mislabeled. --Invisiboy42293 (talk) 04:23, 25 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As Invisiboy42283 states, hardcore is not a mix of metal and punk, though often hardcore bands mix with metal. But, there are sources in the list that describe TFK as nu-metal, so they can stay.--3family6 (talk) 13:26, 25 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
They do have several genres of metal listed on their page. Still, they do have a profile on absolutepunk.net (source), so I'll be adding them on the punk list as well.--Invisiboy42293 (talk) 23:04, 25 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Fine by me.--3family6 (talk) 00:18, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Not fine. One place or the other. Not both. Also, is http://www.absolutepunk.net a WP:RS? It looks like a fan site. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:34, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
They are sourced as both, which means they go on both lists, the only way that they might only be on one list is if there is a specific source that identifies a particular style as the majorly predominant one. AbsolutePunk appears to be published by a third-party source and have editorial oversight, so unless I am incorrect about that they are reliable. However, the AbsolutePunk profile of the band simply says "alternative," which is not good enough. However, several Jesus Freak Hideout reviews, including the one sourced on this page, identify them with several punk and metal styles.--3family6 (talk) 00:46, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Will accept AbsolutePunk as a WP:RS. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:26, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

P.O.D.

  • Include - P.O.D. Makes blatant references to God and Jesus in their older CDs in particular, and are pretty much a text book definition of Nu Metal. Axcess (talk) 16:37, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Include Whether nu metal is "true metal" or not, these guys were in a huge position in bringing Christian metal movement back to the world map. That alone qualifies them.--Azure Shrieker (talk) 21:48, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Exclude nu metal is like the average high school teenager: its trying to be something its not. nu metal only sounds hard but does not qualify as metal. if bands "metal status" were determined by how hard they sound, then gothic metal and bands that play the genre would not qualify. Exmpl: virgin black isnt hard at all yet it still qualifies as metal because of how its played. evry genre of metal has a patern it follows. people are aparently forgeting that because i keep seeing cases where metalcore and death metal are being mixed up. nu metal does not follow an actual style of metal. its just called metal because people thought it would make it cooler.
  • Include - Nu metal all the way. It's harder than you can rock. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:20, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Include - Nu metal. 66.177.182.13 (talk) 19:54, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Skillet

Day of Fire

  • Include - Adding here because I considered adding to the list but was looking for consensus. Definitely "hard rock", possibly along the same lines as Skillet. I'm not sure why their wiki page consistently gets reverted away from "Christian Rock". 66.177.182.13 (talk) 19:50, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

King's X

It should be known that they are not a Christian band. There have had countless interviews with the Band and always comes up "are you guys Christian?" Always answer is no. They have a lot of "inspirational" Lyrics but let's face it one of the members is gay and that would suggest not Christian. It's a great band and I could see why they may be considered Christian with the first three albums you can hear biblical themes if you know the Bible. I thin (not sure of this) one of the members is a Believer or is an apostate. 74.70.28.219 (talk) 21:08, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Include Doug Pinnick and Ty Tabor are definitely Christians. Can't speak for the rest of the band. I suspect that the band was addressing whether they wanted to be considered as part of the larger Christian music industry and they obviously don't, but that's not the only definition of what a Christian band is. Faith Hope Love made the #7 in HM magazine's list of top 100 Christian rock albums and so the compilers of that list think they're a Christian band. There are many others who believe that a Christian band is defined by its members not by the industry. So with that said, who without a WP:V source one way or the other, there's no reason to remove them from the list. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:40, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Doug Pinnick has announced he is a homosexual, and he and another of the band's three members have renounced Christianity. However, they were considered a Christian band before that time, so I think they should be included, though an attempt at a consensus for their removal could be started if someone objected.--3family6 (talk) 00:26, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Additional Comments

I feel this is necessary to give us just cause for removing bands from the list, and avoid edit wars. if anyone has any objections to me putting this up, feel free. Axcess (talk) 16:37, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is definitely necessary. The List of Christian rock bands got deleted in AfD so people are now adding every even relatively "heavy" band here. I could add a ton of hardcore and metalcore groups here that constantly get added and removed.--Azure Shrieker (talk) 21:48, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Deicide?

Sorry if I missed something, but why is Deicide in the list? They are quite obviously anti-religion (Glen Benton has an inverted crucifix on his forehead and they have songs such as "Fuck your god" and "Kill the Christian".) Also, it's not even a valid link. Is it some stupid prankster or is it there as an antonym sort of thing? Actually, I'll just edit them out myself...


Beloved

Hey where's Beloved? They were definitely christian even though they broke up. -DCcomicslover

I will add them, but you should feel free to add them yourself.

Akissforjersey

They had an article but someone delleted it... —Preceding unsigned comment added by DCcomicslover (talk • contribs) 01:43, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It probably didn't meet WP:BAND. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:48, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Family Force 5

Any suggestions on whether or not they should be added? —Preceding unsigned comment added by DCcomicslover (talk • contribs) 18:46, 28 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Since when has FF5 been considered metal? They're listed in List of Christian rock bands and their genre would need to be cited, at least in their article, to be added here. I just looked at the article and the genres listed don't match the references so I removed a large number of them there. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:16, 28 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah but they contain crunkcore elemens. Should that be considered a type of metal? DCcomicslover —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.23.32.16 (talk) 15:39, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A border case at best. They were a dance/pop band earlier. Haven't heard much of them lately. If they are more rock than metal, they should be there. If they're now more metal, they can be in both. BTW: You may want to sign-in when you edit to avoid the 'bot signing them for you. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:42, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would define some of their elements as metal. I won't add them if its debatable though. DCcomicslover (talk)DCcomicslover —Preceding undated comment added 19:23, 30 October 2010 (UTC).[reply]

I think they have metal elements as well, but the only source I can find for them being metal (other than somewhat unreliable AllMusic tags) is a Cross Rhythms review of Business Up Front..., but that only mentions metal elements for two specific songs, which isn't really enough.--3family6 (talk) 01:10, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Attack Attack!

Wheres Attack Attack!? They have christian lyrics!! They should be here! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.252.148.142 (talk) 19:44, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Attack Attack! do not consider themselves to be a Christian band. If you can find a source that says they are, feel free to add it to their article and then add them back here. Adding and removing the band has gone back-and-forth for a while. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:04, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I tend to agree with that guy up top. Their lyrics sometimes have deep scriptural meanings even though theyre not considered christian. DCcomicslover (talk) 21:35, 2 November 2010 (UTC)DCcomicslover[reply]

Glad you agree with anon. If you want to get the editors of the band's article to change their position on this, it would make perfect sense to add them to this list. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:47, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But lots of other bands on this list dont consider themselves christian. Ar they considered christian bcause they say they are or by lyrical content? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.23.32.16 (talk) 23:05, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Usually the former, but also based on reviews from Christian media. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:47, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Their Itunes bio says they follow "strict christian principals." Does that count as a reasonable argument?DCcomicslover (talk) 22:50, 6 November 2010 (UTC)DCcomicslover[reply]

It's customary for every response to be indented by another set of colons.
I can't access their iTunes bio. The store is giving an error. I don't know if a retail store qualifies as a reliable source. I think they and Amazon may only be used to verify that a song appears on an album, but not for any other facts. If iTunes listed them in their Christian music store, it might be more compelling. I would rather see a reviewer or interview declare the band is a Christian band. I can't speak for other editors, particularly the ones who keep removing them from the list. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:00, 6 November 2010 (UTC
I think that the iTunes info comes from Allmusic, as the "strict Christian principles" is in the AllMusic bio. Most of iTunes' info on artists comes from AllMusic, and it usually attributes it to Allmusic. And if iTunes attributes it to Allmusic, it means that you can search the AMG database and the artist will be there and you can get the info direct, instead of using a retail store.--3family6 (talk) 02:45, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But theyre lyrics are christian.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.252.4.9 (talk) 2010-11-13T11:46:25

Are they? Do you have a reference for that? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:33, 13 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Their article says that the band has christian based lyrics DCcomicslover (talk) 14:27, 17 November 2010 (UTC)DCcomicslover[reply]

We are not to rely on Wikipedia alone for references. Their article also says that they don't want to be labelled a Christian band: "not all members of Attack Attack! follow the religion. As such, they do not consider themselves a Christian band.". --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:39, 17 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Even if they don't consider themselves christian what about their lyrics? That guy a comment or 2 up had a good point DCcomicslover (talk) 16:17, 17 November 2010 (UTC)DCcomicslover[reply]

Chris True of Allmusic says quote: "the Ohio-based Attack Attack! was a screamo/metalcore outfit that held true to a strict set of Christian beliefs." I am pretty sure warrants inclusion, but I felt that I should ask here first.--3family6 (talk) 22:09, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hey I've been trying to get them on forever! Fine by me. But you might want to alphabetize it. t comes before u. DCcomicslover (talk) 21:59, 13 January 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover[reply]

Thanks, fixed.--3family6 (talk) 02:40, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There was a whole debate about them on the forums over at Jesus Freak Hideout. This, from a moderator there, was pretty much the end of it. Simply put, Christian lyrics but not embraced by Christians, so not a Christian band. Please remove them. --Invisiboy42293 (talk) 23:37, 25 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Nice research! That reference should good for starting a consensus discussion as to whether they should be removed.--3family6 (talk) 00:16, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting research. Fan forums are not WP:RS, although good to know. I don't think the band is a Christian band, but am I a [WP:RS]]? I know I'm not WP:V. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:37, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Fan forums may not be reliable, but given that it's the moderator denying that they are a Christian band, it could at least be a source that they are not accepted by Christians, which would put their status as a "Christian band" in question. Also, the post I linked to mentioned some Youtube panels or something like that - maybe I could try and turn up some of those. Admittedly, though, I probably should have gotten consensus here before removing them. Let me know if you think I should put them back.--Invisiboy42293 (talk) 04:36, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Please read WP:RS. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:49, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As the source is a moderator, it might count as reliable, if the identity and/or expertise of the moderator can be determined. Judging from the nature of the post, it might be John DiBiase or a knowledgeable staff member. However, the site requires registration in order to view the profile, so at this point I can't tell. I might sign up so I can verify, but at this point leave the band on the list unless a more valid source is found or the validity of this one can be determined.--3family6 (talk) 13:08, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This might end the discussion: Here's an interview with the current guitarist, Andrew Whiting, where he says right at the beginning that the Christian-based lyrics were written by Johnny [Franck, their former guitarist and clean vocalist], and that he himself is not a Christian and that the band isn't either. Also, a song on their newest album is called "Sexual Man Chocolate." This may not end the discussion, but I just thought I'd throw it out there. --Invisiboy42293 (talk) 03:08, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That is a very good link. It may not end the discussion though, as while working on the Crunkcore page I accidentally found another mention of them being called Christian: [1] I personally do not think the band is Christian, for the reasons given above, but my opinion is not reliable.
Is the single reviewer's opinion a reliable source? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:03, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What reviewer? Neither the allmusic or Phoenix articles are reviews, so that might be where I am confused. But both sources are about as reliable as you can get.--3family6 (talk) 22:10, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
So, this appears to be the breakdown (no pun intended!) of the argument for Attack Attack!. We have two reliable sources for Attack Attack! being Christian, but we have two sources for the band saying that they are not Christian, and a source with undetermined reliability for them not being Christian. Also, at least one of the former member (Johnny) professes to be Christian, and another former member, Austin Carlile, might be as well (his wiki page sources his beliefs to his Myspace account, which can only be accessed by friends). Right now, the band should stay, but if the reliability of the JFH post can be determined, removal might be warranted because of controversy.--3family6 (talk) 00:29, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a member on those forums (not a Christian, just like the music) and I copied this directly from that moderator's page:
Member Profile: JfHadmin Active Stats
Avatar
Username: JfHadmin
Group: Administrator Administrator
Account Status: Active
Online Status: Offline
Joined: Oct-01-2003 at 4:55pm
Last Visit: Feb-07-2011 at 11:14am
Posts: 1021 [0.38 posts per day]
Find Posts: Search for other posts by JfHadmin
Information Communicate
Real Name: John
Date of Birth: Apr-27-1980
Age: 30
Location: Not Given
Homepage: Homepage
Occupation: JfH President, Editor, Writer
Interests: Not Given
Email Address: john@jesusfreakhideout.com
MSN Messenger: Not Given
AIM Address: AIM Address
Yahoo Messenger: Not Given
ICQ Number: Not Given
Skype Name: Not Given
Signature
John of JfH
http://www.Jesusfreakhideout.com
http://www.JohnDiBiase.com
http://www.littleJesusFreaks.com
Also, it's worth noting that the two members who are supposedly Christian (Johnny and Austin) are no longer in the band. --Invisiboy42293 (talk) 01:19, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Good research. I think that is sufficient to cast enough doubt to warrant removal. But we should wait for some others (namely Walter) to step in here and discuss.--3family6 (talk) 02:51, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No opinion on Attack Attack!. I would have said something when I was indenting/formatting. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:15, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But to be on this list they only need to have Played christian music at one point in their careers. Which they did. Which warrents inclusion.DCcomicslover (talk) 04:05, 19 February 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover[reply]

That's still up for debate. They played music with Christian themes but that's not Christian music. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:39, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I second Walter. Trouble is considered Christian by some sources, but is considered secular both by the band themselves and other sources. In the case with Attack Attack!, we have a reliable biography and a reliable mention which both call them Christian, but we have learned from the band that both members who at least profess Christianity have left, and (much more importantly) we have a statement by Christian music expert John DiBiase saying that they are not Christian (it is a forum post, but that's pretty much the same as a blog, which is perfectly acceptable if the poster is an expert). The key thing to remember here is this statement in the lead: "Some bands might not be listed because of a disputed status as a 'Christian band.'"--3family6 (talk) 13:36, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well Im up for whatever is bst for the page and the project. If that is the consensus Ill let It lie. For now at least. DCcomicslover (talk) 01:26, 20 February 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover[reply]

In the Midst Of Lions

I added them and started an article for them. If someone could help me work on it abit Id appreciate it. DCcomicslover (talk) 16:28, 17 November 2010 (UTC)DCcomicslover[reply]

I might help the article a bit if I have time. I added sources for it on this list, which can be used for the article.--3family6 (talk) 23:03, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Think you could do it for me? I'm really no good at sourcing... DCcomicslover (talk) 21:56, 7 January 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover[reply]

Change page description?

Hi, I have watched this page for a while, and I personally feel that the page description needs to be fixed. Right now, the description reads: "This list features bands who have been determined to be Christian and play heavy metal music or one of its subgenres. This list omits some bands of disputed status as a "Christian band.""

Now this is the problem: What does the second sentence mean by "some bands of disputed status"? Who determines which bands are the "some" that are omitted? There are several bands on here that according to the description should not be here. Kekal and Trouble are two that I can think of offhand, and I know that there are others. Also, a helpful addition to the description would be an admonition that only bands with their own Wikipedia article should be included, as I constantly see bands listed on here that do not have an article.

So, my suggestion is that either

1) all disputed bands be removed, and the description read: "This is a list of Christian metal bands. This list omits any band with disputed status as a Christian metal band."
Or 2) the description should be changed, maybe to something like this: "This list features bands who have been determined to be Christian and play heavy metal music or one of its subgenres, as well as bands who have been associated with the Christian metal movement."

Either way, the description needs to be cleaned up so it is not as nebulous. --3family6 14:20, 23 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 3family6 (talk • contribs)

What is the definition of "who have been determined to be Christian"? Who is making that determination? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:53, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would say any band that is considered Christian by multiple third-party sources, and this status is not overly controversial (i.e. Stryper is not controversial, while Trouble is.)--3family6 15:29, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
So does each band need multiple references? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:18, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ideally, yes, though I wouldn't make a big fight over it. But ultimately, that is the only way to determine if they are Christian. The reason for my initial topic post here was to suggest that the page description be modified in some way to better specify what is included/excluded. The addition of bands seems somewhat arbitrary right now, so I felt that clarification might be in order. --3family6 22:12, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Editorial Comment My above statement about multiple refs not being needed was a one-time statement, before most of the bands were sourced. Bands do need to be sourced for inclusion on the list.--3family6 (talk) 18:37, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Recent removal (and restoration) of bands

I think understand why they were removed but I just want to be sure. I suspect that most were removed because they didn't fit a narrow definition of what Christian metal is. I think some were removed because they were controversial. The way I have been maintaining the list is 1) to determine if the band is or is not considered part of the Christian music scene, 2) if their music touches on metal, and 3) if they don't belong on the other lists more than here. if I stepped on 3family6's toes, I'm sorry. I'm just trying to figure out why you removed a lot of bands that I think belong here. I hope I'm not showing page ownership. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:48, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, you haven't stepped on my toes, but I would like to explain the reasons behind my edits. A few bands I removed because they did not have an article, so I hope that there is no dispute there. The vast majority of the bands that I removed was because they are not described as any metal sub-genre on their Wikipedia pages, even though many were listed with a metal sub-genre on this page. Some bands like Day of Fire I would consider alt metal, but if a band does not have the description on their Wiki page, then they should not be on the list. I concede that a few of these bands may have had the genre descriptions on their respective articles recently changed, so if that has been the case please feel free to replace those.
With Spoken and I Am Terrified I changed and/or added to the genre description based off of the Wikipedia article.

Hope that helps clarify, --3family6 22:05, 30 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 3family6 (talk • contribs)

Did you specifically delete those that are Post-Hardcore? DCcomicslover (talk) 22:32, 30 November 2010 (UTC)DCcomicslover[reply]
The list of entries removed is here Check the history to see individual entries. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:35, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To DCComics: I deleted any band that did not have a metal subgenre on its Wikipedia page. Most of those bands happened to be Post-hardcore. --3family6 23:02, 30 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 3family6 (talk • contribs)
If there are no objections, I will remove a few bands that do not meet the criteria. As there is debate over bands that are post-hardcore, I will not touch them. Bands with redlinks or a wrong redirect I will leave for the WikiBot.--3family6 00:18, 2 December 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 3family6 (talk • contribs)
Thanks for your recent changes. They're very good. Please keep it up. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:29, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You are welcome--3family6 00:21, 3 December 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 3family6 (talk • contribs)

Flagicons

Why are there so many Flagicons all of the sudden? —Preceding unsigned comment added by DCcomicslover (talk • contribs) 17:52, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

All of a sudden? As long as I have been aware of the existence of this list, which is probably like 2 years, I have always seen it with flagicons. Maybe I don't understand your question?--3family6 (talk) 19:03, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Every band used to only have one flagicon. Now we have a band with 3! DCcomicslover (talk) 18:01, 6 December 2010 (UTC)DCcomicslover[reply]

Oh, okay, I thought that might have been what you meant. I have been assuming that the flagicons represent the countries band members are and have been citizens of. In the case of Altera Enigma, the members hail from two countries, and the member from Indonesia moved to Canada several years ago, hence the third flag.
If the flags only represent the origins of the band, and I have been mistaken with my interpretation, sorry for the confusion, and I will remove some of the flags (though Altera Enigma still gets two!)
--3family6 (talk) 23:42, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Flagicons in list articles contravene WP:FLAG anyway, as I have been pointing out with little success of anyone listening for some years now. Nonetheless, the consensus has always been for them to represent the bands' nationalities (hence we always use the UK flag for British bands etc). Blackmetalbaz (talk) 18:18, 7 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I was kind of wondering about the flags here myself, but I wasn't that sure, and I felt a removal would get reverted anyway. So flags represent origin and is a member has moved the current nation? Or just the origin? This probably doesn't even matter, as they shouldn't be here anyway. Also, thanks for stepping in here with the genre thing, this page is always a mess. There is a real lack of sourcing here, and as I'm getting better with identifying reliable sources, I'll probably do a lot of it myself. I'm planning to do some more work on here, but I am shorthanded on time.
With all that out of the way, I will now step down off my soap box.--3family6 (talk) 01:42, 8 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Update: I have been combing MOS:FLAG, and I cannot find anything that frowns upon use of flagicons in lists. The only thing I found regarding their use in lists is that they can be removed if it is determined that they cause problem with clarity. I have noticed that there is a stipulation that flagicons be used along with the name of a nation, not as a replacement.--3family6 (talk) 14:31, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the issue as I see it is that MOS:FLAG states that they shouldn't be used decoratively, or to place undue weight on the band's nationality, and also that the name of the country must be listed as well whenever they are used. This creates a redundancy, unless you are claiming that the use of flagicons has a purpose other than decoration? Blackmetalbaz (talk) 20:01, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:ICONDECORATION for more details. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 20:05, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for clarifying. I have no problem removing them, I might do so soon.--3family6 (talk) 22:19, 25 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sourcing

As can be seen on the page history for the article, I am attempting source all of the bands listed here. Some unsourced bands may be removed.--3family6 (talk) 23:07, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest simply marking them with a citation needed reference before removing them. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:45, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the suggestion. So far, I have only removed one band, the others I put citation needed notices on.--3family6 (talk) 23:49, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As can be seen, the genre descriptions have been removed by a user, as they were unsourced. Once I have finished sourcing all of these bands, I plan to re-introduce subgenres with sources as a drop-down feature.--3family6 (talk) 16:55, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Finished sourcing. I need to go back through and see if any need minor corrections. Next phase is bringing back the subgenres. I plan to use the expandable list feature for them unless there is not enough information.--3family6 (talk) 23:01, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Expandable list creation is underway, it will probably take a while --3family6 (talk) 16:35, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is AWESOME man! Keep up the good work!! DCcomicslover (talk) 02:21, 22 December 2010 (UTC)DCcomicslover[reply]

Thanks. This is the result of just coming out of my first semester and having loads of free time. I'll probably have to slow down in a few days.--3family6 (talk) 03:48, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am tweaking the expandable list feature. It will not work for every single band as the page will probably crash. I don't know what I was thinking, but I will fix everything to work better.--3family6 (talk) 13:30, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Who deleted all the genres to begin with? DCcomicslover (talk) 14:51, 22 December 2010 (UTC)DCcomicslover[reply]

I did, as not a single one was sourced, and they are an edit-war minefield; save it for the individual band's articles. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 18:40, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oh dear, I have just noticed that someone has started addeing back the "subgenres". This is an absurd notion; you'll end up with a page with so many citations that it will take an aeon to load, and will be a magnet for genre warriors. That level of detail/disagreement between sources is much, much better suited to the individual band pages. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 18:44, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am still figuring out the logistics of all of this. I strongly feel that style descriptions should be included, as unlike most other genres, Christian metal is not based on sound, but rather on lyrical content, and because this allows for a sound as diverse as metal itself, I think that a description of subgenres called for. However, as you pointed out, there are many problems with this. With the number of citations that this article has ended up with just for bands to qualify on the list, I have been considering a split, so that will probably solve the problem of page size. As to genre warriors, 1) the info is sourced, and I put up a warning on the edit page that any change that is not sourced will be reverted, and 2) I have tried to keep the styles very general, and I may make them even more generalized when I work more on this page. Thank you for your concern, and I am trying to work out a solution here that will solve these problems yet also inform the reader of a band's basic style.--3family6 (talk) 19:32, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I still fail to see an argument for their inclusion; that information will be present, in detail, and fully sourced/argued on their talk pages... this is purely and simply a suplication of information. No-one has yet addressed the WP:FLAG infraction either. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 19:44, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This page is becoming too time consuming for me anyway. For now I will remove the contentious information until the issue is resolved, and it would take me forever to finish everything anyway and would leave the page half-finished for who knows how long. I also put up a proposal to split the page, as the list is a bit too long. Should I remove the flags as well until a resolution is reached?--3family6 (talk) 21:35, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I propose that we leave the flagicons. But what do you mean by splitting the page? By genres? DCcomicslover (talk) 15:58, 23 December 2010 (UTC)DCcomicslover[reply]

I meant split the page alphabetically, with the first thirteen on one page and the second thirteen on a second page. See List of black metal bands. But your suggestion is something I had in the back of my mind, maybe splitting it by genre might work. I probably put a test page up on my profile and work on it there, maybe get some feedback on it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 3family6 (talk • contribs) 16:17, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

New idea on sourcing

The article is taking a long time to load, at least it is for me. I was thinking that maybe we should move the refs to a sub page like List of Christian metal bands/references and just leave the band names on the article itself. Comments? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:28, 25 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have had loading problems too. I also considered putting the references in a separate page, I saw a list once that did that, but as I can't remember how to find it I wasn't going to suggest it. Your proposal is fine by me.--3family6 (talk) 23:00, 25 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed split

I am developing a list that splits the article by genre. See here to check and see if I should expand, fix, or create more categories. Thank you, --3family6 (talk) 01:55, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The list is pretty much finished, it will probably take a few weeks to implement it, I will list bands on my talk and when finished use the lists to create the separate pages.--3family6 (talk) 03:12, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just looked at it now and I don't think this is the way to go. It would be better to list the sub-genres the band is associated with directly in the list. Breaking it down into sections like this seems arbitrary. Some bands have spanned several genres so how do you select which section, or do they get added to multiple?
Not sure why we were splitting. What was the rationale again? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:25, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think its that the list is getting a bit long. DCcomicslover (talk) 03:47, 30 December 2010 (UTC)DCcomicslover[reply]

As DCcomics said, the reasoning for the split was because the list is a bit too long, especially with all of the references. I keep getting a message at the top that says the list is 81 kilobytes, which is definitely long enough to split. So maybe just split alphabetically, and put subgenres in the way they were before?--3family6 (talk) 13:21, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've seen longer. I've also never seen a list with refs. Perhaps making a separate article just for the refs. No. That's not workable. The 1000th longest article on Wikipedia is 137,239 bytes Special:LongPages. I don't think that 83000 bytes is all that long. My main concern is that as the genres evolve, who will maintain the list? Who decides when a genre is split, and how to list artists that have spanned multiple genres? Would it be unreasonable to move the references to the articles for the bands? Each article could have a genre section or something similar. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:32, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have seen many lists with refs, see List of Viking metal bands, List of melodic death metal bands, List of highways in Essex County, New York, and List of tallest structures in Tokyo (okay, I admit that the last two I looked up to prove my point). Putting inline citations into lists of articles also follows guidelines set by WP:FL?, and also WP:LSC because this list sees a lot of dispute.
Now, if the article remains un-split, I think including subgenres will not work, because as Blackmetalbaz pointed out in the previous section, the page will have so many references that some computers could have trouble loading. Even if the page is left as it is right now with no subgenres, I think it should be split per WP:SPLIT and possibly WP:LENGTH. The message I mentioned above about the 81 kilobytes also suggests a split.
The big question seems to whether to include subgenres. As far as I can tell, Blackmetalbaz opposes inclusion as, in addition to page size considerations, inclusion of subgenres can bring in genre warriors. You have brought up the problem of maintenance as well. DCcomicslover seems to be in favor of including subgenres. I favor inclusion as well, but only if a good solution can be worked out to the above problems. So the question is, should subgenres be included? If so, should they immediately follow the band name, as was done in the past on this list, or should they be listed in subdivisions such as those on my user page, albeit in a simpler/more broad format? To avoid genre wars, perhaps subgenres should be fairly basic, i.e. metalcore, progressive metal, black metal. Multiple subgenres are not a problem if listed in subdivisions, as a band would just have multiple listings.
Sorry for the length of this post, hopefully it will solve problems and not create more.--3family6 (talk) 00:53, 31 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well said. OK. My primary role here is a guardian. I'm not here primarily to add refs or monitor additions, I'm just here to ensure that the page isn't vandalized. I will attempt to perform the same role with whatever sub-pages are created. With that said, I'm less familiar with sub-genres of Christian metal, especially extreme metal sub-genres, but will attempt to do what I can. I;m not a fan of Gospel music, but perform that task on the list of gospel musicians. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:00, 31 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure how familiar I am with Christian metal subgenres as well, I don't really follow the scene and most of what I do know is from what I have read. I might just list bands under really major subgenres like alternative metal, death metal, and traditional metal, etc., to avoid genre wars. Unless you or someone else thinks the division on my user page is feasible. I'll probably take a break dealing with this page for a few days to let things settle.--3family6 (talk) 01:28, 31 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here is my theory. I'll run it by you 2 first because I think we 3 oare the only ones on this page often enough. What if we only added the main subgenre of each band? I'm pretty good at subgenres and could do it over time. DCcomicslover (talk) 17:02, 31 December 2010 (UTC)DCcomicslover[reply]

Sounds good, but again, who decides what the main sub-genre is? In all honesty, that sort of debate would affect fewer than 10% of the bands. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:33, 31 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. Any other ideas? DCcomicslover (talk) 19:21, 2 January 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover[reply]

I think that listing them by the main subgenre(s) could work if done right. The "main" subgenre of a band would be whichever styles get the most mentions. The problem with this is that it gets into problems with WP:OR. The best way that this would work would be to stick to major styles, like metalcore, traditional metal, prog metal, etc. My personal opinion is that this idea is not the best, and gets into very subjective territory.--3family6 (talk) 14:39, 3 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with above whole-heartedly; it sounds like edit-war magnet waiting to happen. There's absolutely no need to list any subgenres, let alone get into OR/NPOV disputes about what the main one is. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 15:03, 3 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
While I agree that there is no need to list subgenres, I think that it is very helpful to list subgenres. I can vouch from personal experience from before I was an active editor that I found the inclusion of subgenres was very helpful for researching bands, as I could see what general style a band falls under. I believe that additional information for the reader was part of the rationale given in previous discussions on this page over whether to include subgenres [2], [3]. And according to Wikipedia policy, one of the advantages of lists is that they can be annotated to give the reader additional information (WP:AOAL, #5). But I wholeheartedly agree that just listing bands "main" styles is a bad idea. If subgenres are given, they should be as specific as the sources.
The other way to give subgenres is to list by subgenres, as suggested on my user page. This could also allow for NPOV generalization of styles as well, just like the List of death metal bands, List of doom metal bands, etc.
Though I feel that subgenres should be included, if a consensus is developed that they shouldn't be included, I will go along with that and enforce that consensus.--3family6 (talk) 15:36, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
P.S.: I just found this. Perhaps rework the list into this type of format? I believe that Wikipedia policy prefers that lists avoid table format, but I just thought I would add this idea to the discussion.--3family6 (talk) 18:04, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Tables are evil! Its unnecessary. If it can be described in prose, it's better. A lot less render time for the browser. However, we're supposed to concern ourselves with content and not the technology behind it. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:50, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So far, a consensus doesn't seem to have developed. Should I just split the page alphabetically and ignore the genre debate for now?--3family6 (talk) 22:11, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I just found the List of thrash metal bands, and while it could use sourcing, I think the general layout idea might work well for this list. It will probably help with listing genres, and will take care of the flag infraction that Blackmetalbaz mentioned (though I still can't find what he is talking about).--3family6 (talk) 14:00, 21 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What appeals to you about the list? I don't like how some bands have prose written about them while others are just bullet-points. The division by country is also a bit distracting. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:32, 21 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What appeals to me is the use of annotations and detailed prose. The division by country is distracting though.--3family6 (talk) 22:21, 25 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The new editor on the punk list might have an interesting point. If we move the hardcore bands to the punk list that would free-up room on this list. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:29, 25 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That would work, but most of the hardcore bands that are on this list are also metal, so it would only reduce this list by a little bit.--3family6 (talk) 23:21, 25 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Define hardcore bands. that could mean anything. Metalcore? or what? DCcomicslover (talk) 16:30, 26 January 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover[reply]

Hardcore meaning hardcore punk.--3family6 (talk) 18:31, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Edit: Unless the above question was not addressed to me.--3family6 (talk) 19:02, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It Was. I don't even think we have any of those on this list that aren't metal sourced. DCcomicslover (talk) 17:27, 30 January 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover[reply]

Point taken. The only pure hardcore bands on this list are obviously unsourced.--3family6 (talk) 17:39, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

List of metalcore bands

This is an idea I have been brooding over for a while. With this list, and also pretty with the List of Christian punk bands, a great deal of the bands are metalcore. To help with size issues and maybe also to avoid annoying genre disputes, perhaps a separate List of Christian metalcore bands could be created?--3family6 (talk) 03:46, 29 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

How many bands would that take out of the metal list and out of the punk list? It might be bigger than the ska list, but ska was, from my understanding, a more popular genre. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:43, 29 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Though ska was maybe more popular in the mainstream, there are a lot more metalcore bands, as the metalcore scene has become saturated. A list of metalcore bands would take at lot of bands out of the metal list. It might not help as much on the punk list as most metalcore bands are also sourced as hardcore/post-hardcore and/or screamo, but it might help a little. With ska list, I would re-word it to included ska-punk, and that would keep some bands off this list. If another list was created for emo and screamo bands, that could shrink the list even more (though with many screamo bands there is still that annoying post-hardcore which ruins things).--3family6 (talk) 13:36, 29 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

List of Rock/Metal Bands

ok so I was looking through the List of Christian rock bands and Ive came across a large number of bands that I think should be here as well. DCcomicslover (talk) 01:21, 8 January 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover[reply]

Move them. It's not normally acceptable to have them in both lists. I noticed the other day that there were some there that should be here and was looking for some time when I could move them myself. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:33, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What if a band is both rock and metal, like Resurrection Band, Emery, Kutless, Thousand Foot Krutch, and host of others?--3family6 (talk) 02:42, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This is a common question with lists. For instance, should a band be listed under both the Ska and Punk pages? You usually have to list them in the one that they are most like and then trust that people will look through the see more links below the main article. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:48, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
But what if they are ska-punk, which is both styles? And how does one know which style they are most like? Bands often play multiple styles. For instance, Rez Band has played blues-style hard rock, heavy metal, and new wave at different points in their career, and so can be listed under all three genres. I guess my point is that this gets into incredibly subjective territory, and unless a controversy can be found, there is no reason not to include bands on multiple lists. But you have said above that it is not normally acceptable practice to include on multiple lists, so is it possible for you to direct me to where this was decided?--3family6 (talk) 03:06, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Okay I went through the list and picked a number of bands to add. None will be sourced so if someone could please... DCcomicslover (talk) 18:37, 10 January 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover All right I added a bunch of bands. If they don't line up with metal than feel free to delete them but at least keep the post-Hardcore ones. If they mentioned metal or posthardcore in their article I added them. A few Hard rocks may have worked their way in as well as well so feel free to check my work. DCcomicslover (talk) 18:53, 10 January 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover[reply]

I am sourcing the bands now. For now, post-hardcore bands stay with a "citation needed" tag, but in order to keep them you will have to show how post-hardcore is a metal genre.--3family6 (talk) 23:16, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Im gonna do another run through of the christian rock list but I always thought that Post harcore was was a branch of metal. It's a border between rock and metal. Or so i thought. Alot of PH bands are heavier than some metal bands. DCcomicslover (talk) 23:26, 10 January 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover[reply]

It doesn't matter anyway in this case, as all the bands sourced as post-hardcore also have played metal (though the Secret & Whisper source is dubious). I myself don't know much about post-hardcore, but from what I have read it is an offshoot of hardcore, and has no direct connection with metal.--3family6 (talk) 23:37, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Allies? not likely

Source indicates that they're CCM/AOR. Quote is "a rock band [with] the ability to wear a variety of stylistic hats", one of which is "raunchy heavy metalers" and Man with a Mission definitely has some hard-rocking tracks, but not a single track is "raunchy" or even approaching what was taken as heavy metal in 1992. If the album had come out in 1972, it could have been considered metal. It goes on to mention "doowop revivalists", because they have a Billy Joel-inspired track on the album as well. And even if we accept it as a source for half, and I'm being generous her, of the tracks in the one album, you have five other albums' worth of material to account for. Their rockiest song was actually the title track of the previous album Long Way from Paradise. They were a west-coast AOR band not metal and Man with a Mission had some electric blues songs (direct musical rips from traditional blues songs with "Christianized" lyrics).

So here's a situation where the source indicates metal, but their overall body of work is not metal. I don't think that they should be listed, but we have a source that seems to support addition. I can confirm with the Encyclopedia of CCM tonight, but I can't imagine a reason to keep them in the list. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:16, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have never heard of the band before, so I cannot vouch from personal experience. But in the source it says that they have played heavy metal, which is a form of rock, and whether the album is "raunchy" or not is not up to us as editors. Tony Cummings is a professional writer and has followed the CCM scene for years. Even so, a band does not have to be included even if a reliable source can be provided, but we need a really good reason not to include them, beyond metal not being their predominant style (which, judging from sources, varied anyway). I will not put them back up for now, but a consensus needs to be developed or else they go back.--3family6 (talk) 23:25, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

After some thinking, I have thought of a potential compromise: Maybe put Allies back in the list, but place a dubious tag next to the sources?--3family6 (talk) 02:24, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

removal of Kekal

Sorry about the removal of King James, that was accidental. As to Kekal, I should probably have discussed it on here. My edit was supposed to have an explanation, but I accidentally sent the edit through before I could finish (which is probably why I did not catch that King James was included). My rational for Kekal is that there is debate as to whether they are Christian, and the only qualification that they have for Christian metal is that the members have expressed Christian beliefs, although their earliest material has a Christian message. They probably meet the criteria of this list, I don't really know why I took them off the list (probably too much time on Wikipedia).--3family6 (talk) 16:36, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The leaders have expressed faith. They also have many Christian themes. During their metal phase, they released an album that's a favourite of one of my favourite podcasts: Metal Blessing Radio. They're listed on his band list. The tracks he plays are quite Christian. Will have to check the band's article. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:15, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for double-checking for me, though as I said before, I'm not sure why I felt the need to remove them. If you think they should be removed, fine, but I do not think they warrant removal.--3family6 (talk) 21:42, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Images in the list?

Might make the list difficult to read, especially on narrow monitors or hand-held devices. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:38, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I admit that thought had not occurred to me. If you think they are a problem, feel free to remove them.--3family6 (talk) 16:03, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I say we keep Underoaths image and instead move it up top and just have that one. DCcomicslover (talk) 21:59, 13 January 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover:[reply]

I removed the images for now, the log can be found here.--3family6 (talk) 16:15, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Spitfire

I might have found an interview with them that can count as a source for them being included. It's on lambgoat. com DCcomicslover (talk) 20:56, 14 January 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover[reply]

It might, though a third-party source would really help as well. If you can post it here, it would help. Even if they no longer are a Christian group, if they were at some point it would still count, just like King's X.--3family6 (talk) 21:07, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As long as it's a WP:RS too, we're good. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:27, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.lambgoat.com/features/interviews/spitfire.aspx I think this is it. 00:08, 23 January 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover — Preceding unsigned comment added by DCcomicslover (talk • contribs)

That looks good, but a secondary source should be found as well because of the controversy over the Cult Fiction album cover.--3family6 (talk) 23:23, 25 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'll work on it but I'm having a hard time finding band interviews. I HATE reclusive bands DCcomicslover (talk) 16:27, 26 January 2011 (UTC)DCcomiclover Hmmm.... Would their Solid State Records page work? DCcomicslover (talk) 23:18, 13 February 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover[reply]

All that does is prove that they are on Solid State records, which has mostly Christian bands. But unfortunately, it won't work because 1) No mention of Christianity, and 2) not a third-party source. Not trying to shoot you down or anything, its just that we need better sources.--3family6 (talk) 23:33, 13 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No it's cool. I guess I'll keep looking. If I can come up with one surely I can come up with 2.... What about their myspace profile? Tey're listed as gospel there. DCcomicslover (talk) 20:20, 14 February 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover[reply]

Myspace is the same problem as the others above, you need one that is not attributed to the band itself or its label. Hope you find something, you sure are determined.--3family6 (talk) 21:39, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Myspace is acceptable as a reliable primary source about the subject, but not about others. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:52, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:PRIMARY --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:54, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You are completely correct, but in this case I don't think they are enough. "Gospel" really doesn't say anything anyway, as Elvis Presley performed Gospel. Usually, I think the lambgoat.com interview would be enough, as in it the band states Christian beliefs. But the only secondary source that discusses the band's faith that I have found so far is a Cross Rhythms review which says that there is a lot of controversy about whether the band is Christian and that "any beliefs the band may or may not have are well hidden." Now, while there was a member of Christian band Norma Jean in the band at one point (incidentally, he left right before the controversial album), this doesn't necessarily confirm that the band is Christian (a very relevant example of this is Rocky Gray drumming for Evanescence). So, basically, while primary sources might usually be enough to source a band as Christian, the controversy around the band presents a special case.--3family6 (talk) 23:12, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.smother.net/interviews/spitfire.php try this.... DCcomicslover (talk) 20:37, 15 February 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover And I also found this as well. Not as deep as I dug for the last one. http://www.technicianonline.com/features/a-christian-band-with-a-metalcore-1.1111379 DCcomicslover (talk) 20:52, 15 February 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover[reply]

Technicianonline appears to be student paper, but it looks reliable enough to me. I would say go ahead, though you might want to wait for someone else to weigh in.--3family6 (talk) 21:00, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And The first one? DCcomicslover (talk) 21:08, 15 February 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover[reply]

The first one is an interview, which is a primary source, which works as long as there is reliable secondary sourcing as well, which you appear to have found.--3family6 (talk) 21:25, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

YESSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!! Probably should wait for Walter though. He's the only one that really spends any time here. DCcomicslover (talk) 21:30, 15 February 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover[reply]

Who am I to argue with a source? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:49, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Needs a big cleanup.

A lot of bands on here (Dizmas, Underoath, Dead Poetic, etc.) have absolutely nothing to do with metal, and would only be labeled as such by someone who thinks that all hard music is metal. I'm currently busy editing the Christian punk list, so I thought I would throw it out there in case anyone else has the time. --Invisiboy42293 (talk) 23:44, 25 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Of the bands you listed, only Dead Poetic is unsourced. I will remove Dead Poetic, but the others are sourced and stay.--3family6 (talk) 00:06, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What sort of clean-up is needed? Now do you understand why we need WP:RS for lists? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:38, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I know, I know. No need to say I told you so. DCcomicslover (talk) 16:27, 26 January 2011 (UTC)Dcomicslover[reply]

To Speak of Wolves

Currently, To Speak of Wolves should not be on the list as there are no sources that state them as metal. Now, I have a heard a few of their songs, and I am positive they are metalcore, but my opinion does not count. The main problem is that they are just too small a group, perhaps when they get more exposure we will get a source.--3family6 (talk) 20:21, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ref found.--3family6 (talk) 21:00, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ref format

Just so I don't always wind up doing this (and to make it easier for me when I do it), here is the format for internet references:
<ref>{{cite web |url= |title= |author= |date= |work= |publisher= |accessdate=July 9, 2024}}</ref>
Just fill in each parameter that applies. If a ref if used more than once, give it a name and use only the name in subsequent uses.--3family6 (talk) 18:43, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Thank you Walter for formatting the above correctly.--3family6 (talk) 14:22, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oh but you're so good at it.... Just kidding. Alright I'll be sure to try to follow this in the future DCcomicslover (talk) 19:35, 16 February 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover[reply]

Kutless

In light of the discussion on the list of Christian punk bands, I have looked closer at the sources for Kutless as metal, and I don't know if they hold up. They definitely aren't as strong as the "emo" description that is being challenged on the punk list.--3family6 (talk) 20:25, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree that rock is probably a better label and they're in that list, but they are closer to metal than traditional punk. Don't know about all these hybrids though. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:12, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Callisto

Callisto has been tagged for a bit, I'm just creating a section where they can be discussed. Issue in question: Allmusic simply mentions "religious imagery," it doesn't claim them to be Christian. I have yet to find a source for the band being Christian.--3family6 (talk) 20:37, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=2721 try this. Not sure how reliable it is But it was short notice research DCcomicslover (talk) 16:24, 18 February 2011 (UTC)DCcomicslover[reply]

User generated and unreliable, but would probably be enough to keep them on the list while being discussed. Fortunately, I found this interview a few moments ago, in which they claim Christianity:http://scratchthesurface-webzine.blogspot.com/2009/06/callisto-interview-with-markus.html --3family6 (talk) 17:29, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Skillet article genres

The Skillet article needs some genre attention. Could one of you please come-up with some WP:RS (please avoid Cross Rhythms as they'll probably list them as disco or inspirational or something silly like that :) ) for genres? I suspect that they could also be used here. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:58, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Are these enough? Note: I did include a few Cross Rhythms reviews at the end, but don't worry, nothing controversial :) --3family6 (talk) 21:46, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

http://allmusic.com/artist/skillet-p194866/biography | http://allmusic.com/album/invincible-r461775 | http://allmusic.com/album/alien-youth-r547785 | http://allmusic.com/album/collide-r667946 | http://allmusic.com/album/ardent-worship-skillet-live-bonus-material-r534941 | http://allmusic.com/album/comatose-r858130 | http://www.tollbooth.org/2001/reviews/skillet.html | http://www.tollbooth.org/2006/reviews/skillet.html | http://christianmusic.about.com/od/upcomingreleases/a/skilletcomaUCR.htm | http://christianmusic.about.com/od/cdreviewssz/fr/skilletawake.htm | http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/cdreviews/HeyYouILoveYourSoul.asp | http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/cdreviews/Invincible.asp | http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/cdreviews/AlienYouth.asp | http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/cdreviews/Collide.asp | http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/cdreviews/Comatose.asp | http://www.crossrhythms.co.uk/products/Skillet/Collide/8843/ | http://www.crossrhythms.co.uk/products/Skillet/Hey_You_I_Love_Your_Soul/3638/ | http://www.crossrhythms.co.uk/products/Skillet/Skillet/5467/

Wow! I just looked at the Skillet article, and I can see why sources are needed. Where are all those metal genres coming from? That was the clincher for me to put up a dubious tag on the ref I found that includes Skillet on the list. Its a single source for a single album, which I'm not sure is enough to grant them a listing here. It calls them "melodic metal" anyway, none of the stuff on their page.--3family6 (talk) 21:58, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK. We need to come to consensus on this quickly. The anon came back and an admin kindly locked the page to avoid further changes, but it's only locked for a week. I suspect that we can come to consensus by Monday. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:36, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I know that at least one recent press release from the band refers to themselves as "alternative rockers" when I have more time I'll try to hunt down the refferance. The genres symphonic rock, hard rock and Alternative rock would seem to cover the groups most recent albums the best however with a band like Skillet just about every album covers a new genre. It's very hard to declare them one genre, so perhaps calling them a "Christian rock" band would be best due to it's ambiguity.(116Rebel (talk) 06:30, 20 February 2011 (UTC)).[reply]

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