Talk:Logic

Entire Article

Its a shame that this article sucks, there should be an explanation of what deduction is how its linked to proof (a complete and sound deduction system) with a basic basic truth functional and monadic overview. Also something on the importance of algorithms and interpretation. Finally an explanation of a set theory or polyadic system, say its incomplete and undeciabable, and leave syllogism, recursion, notation and etc. for history of philosophy and computer science or mathematical logic subsections. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.165.86.4 (talk) 07:45, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Lede

Can we puleez change the first sentence of the lede? Right now it is wrong and gross. First of all, it has an inactive link to the Penguin Encyclopedia, and I think the definition of logic is not as accurate as it should be. Saying that it studies "valid inference and correct reasoning" makes it seem that only arguments that can be valid are the ones that logic studies. This would exclude inductive arguments. And since when did the Penguin Enclyclopedia become the end all of philosophy authorities? I think something like this, which is from a prior archived discussion of the same topic would be better:

Logic is the art and science of reasoning which studies the principles of valid demonstration and inference.

Sagan666 (talk) 05:38, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

The def you provide is unsourced, and as the footnote from the lede says, the issue of the definition of logic is fraught, cf. Definitions of logic and footnote #2. The Penguin definition is chosen for being modern and mainstream, and it is suggested as just one of mane, fn #2 gives some others. The Penguin Encyclopedia certainly deserves an article, so someone should WP:SOFIXIT. — Charles Stewart (talk) 09:40, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

And the present source, found by googling the phrase, dates from 1896, when Logic was something different than it is today - as reading Lewis Carroll on the subject will show. Tagged accordingly. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:40, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

...and in 2009 people getting degrees studying logic are still getting B.A.'s. The reason it is an art is because it is the art of giving logical examples. This is still the case today. Pontiff Greg Bard (talk) 05:03, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

This asserts that Latin ars and English art are coterminous. They were once; they are not now: to use art as though it were ars is bad style; to do so without making clear to the reader what you are doing is bad content. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:44, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Some people today get a degree studying logic of Ph.D. in mathematics. Rick Norwood (talk) 14:44, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

What?

I'm just pointing out that this article is written like a lecture, complete with rhetorical questions, not like an entry in an encyclopedia. I'm simply not knowledgable enough to rewrite this myself, but I thought I would throw the idea out to anyone who might want to fix it up a little bit. 68.215.72.31 (talk) 08:01, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Penguin Encyclopedia

There is no reason to cite this minor, popular work when there are many better references. Rick Norwood (talk) 14:46, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Better references? Providing better definitions? Name one! — Charles Stewart (talk) 10:04, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Automate archiving?

Does anyone object to me setting up automatic archiving for this page using MiszaBot? Unless otherwise agreed, I would set it to archive threads that have been inactive for 30 days.--Oneiros (talk) 13:17, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

This talk page has fairly low traffic, so I think archiving after 6 months would be appropriate. If threads on this talk page would be archived after 30 days, the only thread here would be this one. There is no need to archive that aggressively. Svick (talk) 22:07, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I forgot to mention that I'd configure MiszaBot to keep the last ten threads. Thus it will be a while before it kicks in.--Oneiros (talk) 22:27, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

 Done--Oneiros (talk) 23:07, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Logikos or logos

Sorry to post anonymously, it has been awhile seen I'd last participated and I need to recover my password. Anyway, I was actually trying to find the root of logic and naturally ended up here, as well as several other sites. I noticed that wikipedia and sites that link its material list 'logikos' as the Greek root of logic, however others say it is 'logos'(ex. http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Logic and http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Logic). I will have to verify this offline to be sure for myself, but if someone could confirm the correct Greek derivative in the meantime it may help. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.93.220.117 (talk) 21:06, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Logic is not the study of reasoning

Or rather, to claim it is, is to take a psychologistic view of logic, one that is almost universally rejected by modern logicians, although one that was popular in the last half of the 19th century. The psychology of cognition is the study of reason. — Charles Stewart (talk) 08:52, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Do you have a proposal for alternative text? I think your objection is valid when you're looking up close in detail, but on the other hand "the study of reasoning" is a reasonable description of the broad motivations of logic. It has the ring of a traditional definition (like the one at mathematics about "time, space, structure, quantity, change" or whatever it says now). I would kind of expect "study of reasoning" to be at least mentioned, though I agree that it's problematic to present it as comprising logic as a whole. --Trovatore (talk) 22:14, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

How about what we had before, the last time I complained about the poor lede and fixed it? I've really no interest in applying edits to the logic articles that will just get changed by people who have their own ideas, and aren't willing to see that they are just personal opinions. I am not willing to take any responsibility for the contents of this article anymore. I'll just drop by a couple of times a year and maybe complain nonconstructively.

The problem with "study of reasoning" is two fold: plenty of reasoning is subject specific "I hear the kettle whistling and so I infer the water for my tea is boiling", and second, most logicians don't consider the pragmatics of how logical inference is actually carried out to be within the scope of logic, but rather part of epsitemology or psychology. This, it is true, is a change from how things were a century or so ago, but that's how it is now. — Charles Stewart (talk) 10:00, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I understand what the first poster means. For instance, to be connected to someone "biologically", you do not mean that you are connected to them in a "manner of thinking" (specifically in a manner of thinking about evolutive processes), but you are connected in an actual sense (you are connected to them evolutively regardless of whether or not you are thinking about it). So "logic" must have some more fundamental meaning than just "the study of reason", that would be something named "logicology", but Logic itself lacks a proper examination in this article.

History of logic

After some years of gestation, this article is now largely finished. I am thinking of taking it to FA but would like some thoughts from people first, as I have heard such bad things about this process. It should go there one day, the history of logic is one of the top 50 articles that should be in an encyclopedia. I welcome any thoughts.HistorianofLogic (talk) 20:43, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Misuse of sources

Jagged 85 (talk · contribs) is one of the main contributors to Wikipedia (over 67,000 edits; he's ranked 198 in the number of edits), and most of his edits have to do with Islamic science, technology and philosophy. This editor has persistently misused sources here over several years. This editor's contributions are always well provided with citations, but examination of these sources often reveals either a blatant misrepresentation of those sources or a selective interpretation, going beyond any reasonable interpretation of the authors' intent. Please see: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Jagged 85. That's an old and archived RfC. The point is still valid though, and his contribs need to be doublechecked. I searched the page history, and found 18 edits by Jagged 85 (for example, see this edits). Tobby72 (talk) 16:59, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

2nd nonconstructive complaint

I see that the article has a new, up-to-date reference for "Logic is the study of arguments", from the 2002 book by the Catholic philosopher, Harry Gensler, of the John Carroll University, a Jesuit theological college.

Modern Catholic teaching of logic has perhaps been unduly neglected in Wikiedpia's treatment of logic, but it is certainly not mainstream. What, precisely, is wrong with the definition in the Collins Encyclopedia, which was edited by the highly accomplished scholar, David Crystal? What is the attraction of this offbeat definition of logic, that we have to spend so much effort furnishing it with references? Is Harry Gensler really being held up as such a great authority that can tell us that Tarski's characterisation of logic as concerning non-subject specific consequence has been overturned?

Perhaps this article will attract attention from a competent editor who can see beyond their personal views on what logic is, and see how experts use the term. Until then, look out for my 3rd nonconstructive complaint. — Charles Stewart (talk) 10:12, 26 October 2010 (UTC)