Talk:List of climate change controversies

The nature of sceptics

I think a note on the types and degree of skeptics is not out of the question. Unfortunately, a majority of those who would be called skeptics are in the 'blogosphere' and hence do not represent reliable sources. That being said, I propose the following paragraph. I will not add it to the article. If there is consensus that this is OK, then I will leave it to senior editors, etc., to add it. If this is considered out of line, please feel free to point this out to me. I will delete (I do a LOT of traveling, so may not be able to review again for a bit of time.)

Degrees of Skepticism and Acceptance:

In the debate over Global Warming, there is a complete spectrum of acceptance. The debate over this topic plays out daily in many widely read blogs. There are those who are politically, strongly, sometimes vociferously, supportive of the concept. Climate Progress There are those who provide a more scientific approach to the advocacy of the position. Real Climate. There are those who, while accepting the premise of global warming, advocate for less universal solutions. Dr. Roger Pielke Senior. There are those who advocate for the position, but believe that there is common ground with the skeptic community. Dr. Judith Curry There are those who are considered skeptics, but who believe that global warming is real and at least partly a result of human activity. Steve Mosher. There are those who provide a scientific approach to the skeptic position Anthony Watts. And there are those who are politically, strongly, sometimes vociferously, antagonistic to the concept. James Delingpole. At least one skeptic is an IPCC reviewer. Steve McIntyre Many of these blogs provide links to other sites as well. Generally, the reader will be able to assess for themselves the quality of the material on each site. A wide reading may give one the impression that each is, to some degree an Echo Chamber.

John G Eggert (talk) 02:30, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

As a sceptic myself, this obviously gives weight and an impression of "equal validity" to a number of fringe blogs denying, to a greater or lesser extent, that global warming is as real an issue as 97% of practising scientists in the field consider it to be. The "sceptic community" appears to be the credulous community, taking Delingpole as an example. Not a good idea to source this to blogs, verification requires that the analysis this presents should be based on a reliable third party source, not on your views about the blogs. Oh, and I don't think there's anything preventing a contrarian from being an IPCC reviewer, so there are probably several in that unpaid volunteer role. So, we should really start with a good source providing an independent analysis of the blogosphere rather than adding a link farm. . . dave souza, talk 06:37, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Ok. Didn't think any of these were "fringe", but that's an opinion. In this debate, there will never be any good source that would be universally accepted as independent. What I've tried to do is provide a link farm, so to speak, that covers the range of opinions on the topic. Since I posted this, I've done some reading of various bits regarding the 'wars', for want of a better word that have occurred on wikipedia regarding climate. I think I'll back off from any contributions to this subject. Too many people on all sides taking things far too personally, from what I can see. On an editorial note, I hope I've replied to this properly.John G Eggert (talk) 15:26, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't know about fringe but they definitely are blogs and one has to be very careful about such links. I guess we'll have to figure out a better way of dealing with blogs in the future since they account for so much of the web and how people's opinions are formed, but how one would ever separate out anything useful from them I don't know. That bunch above is just a hall of people all shouting at once and the most arrogant and ignorant shout the loudest. Perhaps we should just rely on Google or IBM to eventually produce a program to automatically extract a general idea from them. Dmcq (talk) 16:07, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

@ User:John E. -- you may be responding to the negative connotations of 'fringe' (e.g. 'pseudoscience') but Wikipedia guidelines [1] use the term much more broadly to cover any "ideas that depart significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view". -PrBeacon (talk) 03:06, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Industrial emissions vs. natural emissions

Do we have any estimate figures in relation to the number of tons of Carbon Dioxide is being produced annualy through industry? I wanted to compare it with the emissions released from a natural source - a volcano for example.--OsirisV (talk) 11:36, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

List of countries by carbon dioxide emissions has 29,321,302 tons in 2007 for industrial CO2 for the world. This does not include land use changes like deforestation. You might also be interested in Talk:Global warming/FAQ, Q5. Volcanoes are comparatively small emitters (but persistent - over geological times, they do play a role). If you look at the overal carbon cycle, human sources are small compared to all natural sources (but then natural sources are very closely matched by natural sinks). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:25, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Handy link Wikispan (talk) 15:13, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm doing a Global Warming paper and, after stumbling onto the claim that Wikispan presented, I was confused - It seems to be real... but it feels like it's missing something out of the equation. Thanks for the help :) -- OsirisV (talk) 23:16, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Argument Maps as a way to summarise the debate?

Hi

I would like to propose the addition (e.g. under Further Reading) of links to Global Warming Argument Maps, which summarise key issues, responses and arguments in a visual way (i.e. mindmapping, but tuned for showing multiple viewpoints on a topic).

For example here is an interactive, embeddable Debategraph map on Anthropogenic Climate Change: http://debategraph.org/Stream.aspx?nID=610

...and this one takes you to the top level of Compendium maps based on Climate Skeptic Arguments: http://compendium.open.ac.uk/moodle/file.php/2/kmap/1288889885/ClimateSkepticArguments.html

1. Do you think these are useful?

2. If so, can the page be unlocked so that these can be added?

Regards,

Dr Simon Buckingham Shum

Knowledge Media Institute, The Open University UK, http://people.kmi.open.ac.uk/sbs/welcome

They seem to me to be an excellent example of a possible use of your software, but the arguments and counterarguments presented are far too simplistic, and black-and-white, to add to our more nuanced coverage here. A lot of the statements are sourced from personal blogs (not acceptable as reliable sources here on matters of science or policy), and some are not sourced at all ("missing citation"). Worst of all, they do not represent weight, or degree of belief, or of factual basis, for the arguments presented. Like many down-market media interviews, they sometimes represent views held only by a very few 'crackpots' alongside statements that could be sourced to some of the leading scientific organisations of the world, giving equal weight and credence to both. This is not helpful in a serious coverage. --Nigelj (talk) 18:21, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

It is best to sign with ~~~~,I'll add a welcome template to your user page. You'll be able to edit the page after four days and ten edits - that is a measure to stop drive by editors just sticking in vandalism. That's a good question and the answer could affect a number of other articles. I've raised this at WP:ELN#Are debategraph discussions okay?. It is a bit better than a blog so it might be okay. Dmcq (talk) 18:33, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

I think I'm definitely against the Compendium one as it is just the Open University as far as I can see rather than an open debating forum. Dmcq (talk) 18:41, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

On the assertion of consensus - Heartland Institute List

Environmental journalist George Monbiot should not be cited here. In the first place, his op-ed pieces are not reliable sources for non-NPOV reasons. Secondly, this attribution to him is incorrect. The article uses the term "numerous" scientists. In Monbiot's op-ed, he uses the term "many." The second Monbiot attribution [39] is a dead link and should be removed. For that matter, pretty much nothing Monbiot writes should ever make it into anyone's list of reliable sources.

It was Richard Littlemore's reporting at http://www.desmogblog.com/500-scientists-with-documented-doubts-about-the-heartland-institute that "revealed" this issue, not Monbiot. Littlemore is the corect source.

Instead of listing the nebulous "many" or "numerous" how about we use the source? Littlemore reveals that 45 of the 500 scientists asked for their names to be removed.

71.161.112.23 (talk) 06:34, 17 March 2011 (UTC)Random

This The Heartland Institute? And this George Monbiot? 99.190.86.252 (talk) 07:09, 28 March 2011 (UTC)