Talk:Black Irish

please place the former article under 'ethnic divisions in ireland'

what is this? is this an encyclopedia or what? the former article could best be construed as a hoax or a joke at the expense of the historical usage of the term 'black irish'. it deserves to be considered vandalism... but should any of you want to keep it in place... it is best posted as an ethnic diversity in ireland category.

AGREE'D

While at it, can't we remove the racist term Caucasian? To the best of my knowledge and heritage, none of the Irish came from the Caucasas Mountains in Eastern Russia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.21.41.184 (talk) 08:14, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Mythical Status

Yeah, this Myth accusation is baseless!! take it out. This is no myth. You neglected to look at mtDNA, also, shame on you! I can prove beyond any doubt that not only did the Spanish Armadas leave men behind, but women as well....Shame on you for calling this a myth!!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 168.68.129.127 (talk • contribs).

My father must be a myth then as he was born into a farming family near the West Coast of Ireland and is darker than most Spanish/Italians. There is no doubt in my mind that much historical information about the Irish has been subverted and obscured over the centuries for political and religious purposes. The occurrence of dark skinned Irish, especially along the west coast of Ireland, is significant enough to warrant further investigation.

--220.245.178.134 00:33, 6 December 2005 (UTC)CS

The point is not that there are not dark Irish. Obviously, there are. There are a lot of Irish people with dark hair and dark complexions, and there always have been. The real "subversion" has been the (American) conventional wisdom that all Irish are pale skinned and light or red-haired.

I have no idea what "political and religious purposes" you are talking about.

Jbull 03:20, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Jbull, the "political and religous purposes" are in reference to the Anti-Irish immigration attitudes in the U.S. in the 19th Century and early 20th Century. Irish were portrayed as dogged-looking leprechauns with hellish red hair and were characterized as being "subversive" by nature. The dominant class in America during this time was Anglo-Saxon and Protestant. Seeing an influx of Irish-Catholics in the major developed areas of American society was perceived as a threat to their environment.

Agree with Jbull. Babajobu 14:13, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Category

I added the category: Category:Anthropological categories of people, i.e., a category of people based on their anthropological traits: there are two major kinds of them: Physical anthropology, which deals with physical traits of people and Cultural anthropology, which deals with cultures, societies, etc. "Black Irish" def is based on physical traits, hence dealt with physical antropology. mikka (t) 21:22, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Physical anthropology deals with groups of people with shared physical traits. There is no distinct population of "Black Irish." There are just Irish people, the majority of whom have brown hair. Listing the fictional "Black Irish" under "Anthropological categories of people" would be like listing another made-up category like "Black-haired Chinese." It's redundant and confusing. I'm removing it again.--Jbull 22:59, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for using the talk page. Even if it is a mistaken theory, the category is correct. We have articles is "Race" category for terms deemed incorrect and obsolete, but still they are in the anthropological category. Please don't confuse a scientific classification or real life with classification of articles.

Anyway, right now the dispute is purely academic, since it turns out there is a better category. You should have used it yourself, if you are expert in things Irish (which I am not). mikka (t) 04:48, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

I have often heard the term "black Irish" used in Ireland to describe white Irish people who happen to have black or dark brown hair, brown eyes and a tan. If people think about it a bit they'll mention Spain and ancient trade links and maybe the Armada. That's about all there is to it. I'm not sure it constitutes an ethnicity or deserves an article. (Your typical Irish person has brown hair and blue eyes and fair skin) --Halib Frisk 09:33, 2 July 2006 (UTC) http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a930730.html if you want a reference.

This is not an ethnic group, but a colloquial n expression.Parkwells (talk) 07:34, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

I have never heard the term Black Irish used by an Irish person to describe any other Irish person on the basis of colouring or perceived ethnicity. I'm using the term Irish here to refer to people actually born and living in Ireland, as I was and do, rather than those claiming any flimsy ancestral link. It most certainly does not represent any ethnic division within Ireland. I have heard the term used to refer to those Irish that emigrated to the USA in the 19th century. They were numerous, largely uneducated, catholic, many didn't speak English and as a result very unwelcome. As a result they were regarded as being subhuman and generally treated as such. It was most likely a term used by the Irish themselves to reflect their unpopularity.

Ancient Mediterranean seafarers

How seriously is the possibility of ancient Mediterranean seafarers being taken in academia? The Phoenicians went to Cornwall for tin and the Fomorians were one of the aboriginal peoples of the British Isles, but online accounts of the Fomorians are usually mythological.

You might find this interesting http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=2146411318.--Halib Frisk 09:50, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Irish Slaves in the Carribean

The phrasing of the first paragraph under 'Other uses of "Black Irish"' suggests that the Irish were used as slaves in the English and/or French Carribean. This is undocumented on the "Slavery" page. Perhaps this discussion should take place on the Slavery page, but as I am uninformed on this matter, perhaps I have just misread this phrase. If this is the case I suggest that it be rephrased to specify the status of the Irish mentioned.

I did a little research on this. It seems the scholarship is contested but it does appear that thousands of Irish people were taken as slaves and/or indentured servants to the British American Colonies, in the mid 1600's to work as domestics and labourers. http://omega.cohums.ohio-state.edu/mailing_lists/CLA-L/2000/11/0041.php

"But the very first slaves that the English made in the Caribbean were Irish. And there were more Irish slaves in the middle of the 17th century than any others" http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-background-02-06.htm

"Law Case, Master Samuel Symonds against Irish slaves" http://www.yale.edu/glc/archive/1168.htm

As far as Montserrat goes I found accounts of Irish slaves, Irish servants and Irish slaveowners. Anything that can't be referenced in the entire article should be deleted because most of it is anecdotal. --Halib Frisk 09:52, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Black Irish

this article suggests that the term "Black Irish" in releation to people who do not directly have have 1/4 to 1/2 Black African ancestry is limited to the US. I don't think that's true. I heard the term first about 10 years ago. Also there is the case of Haemochromatosis, one of the symptoms of which is the ability to tan easily. Apparently 1 in 5 people of Irish descent carry the gene and it manifests itself in about 1:86 ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4842700.stm ). I know someone who has just been diagnosed with the condition (the iron levels in his blood were 20 times the norm) and he has to have 1 pint of blood removed from his body each week, he's been doing it for 6 weeks now and will continue to do so until the iron in his body returns to normal levels. Jooler 15:51, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Separate articles

I think this page should be mainly on the myth and it's possible origins and a page on the Irish black communities should be made separately as it is really a completely different subject. Arniep 21:35, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Iberian origin

As some of you who have ever been to Ireland may already know, most Irish are not pale with red hair. Those minority characteristics probably stem from Scandinavian settlement of Ireland during late antiquity/the early middle ages. The Celts who settled France, England, and Ireland were a people who originated in Eastern Europe. More specifically, the Gaels who settled Ireland were possibly settled first in Iberia. Here is a direct quote from the Wikipedia article on the Gaels:

"The Gaels, during the beginning of the Christian era (at which time Gaelic people were mostly restricted to Ireland), believed themselves to be descendants of Míl Espáine coming from the north of Iberia, mainly Gallaecia (modern Galicia and northern Portugal), where there existed also an early form of Ogham script. This belief persists in the Gaelic cultures of Ireland and Scotland up to the present day, with many if not most clan leaders in either country claiming descent from their predecessor, back to famous historical kings going back into pre-history. Much of this is covered in the Lebor Gabála Érenn, which catalogues the path of the Gaels' ancestors in a way that, while mostly mythic, may be an embellished account of actual historical events. Discovery of a form of early Ogham script in Gallaecia, as well as genetic studies linking the Gaels to the Basques and Galicians in northwestern Spain, lends credence to such a theory."

My mother is of %100 Irish descent, and her skin is tanner than mine could ever hope to be. We both have dark hair, nearly black. Couldn't these characterristics, common to many of Irish ancestry, have something to do with the Mediterranean/Eastern/Southern European ancestry of the Irish?

Has the question ever come up about which "Iberia" was being mentioned in ancient documents ?It is not hard for later translaters ,monks etc transcribing ancient documents to have misunderstood that Iberia may have in fact meant to refer to "Caucasian Iberia".In ancient times Caucasian Iberia & Caucasian Albania were linked to the Tocharians by the fact the same tartans were woven by the two groups —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.209.152.79 (talk) 00:35, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Asian Origin of "Black Irish"

Black Irish are distinctive enough to be classified as far outside the normal range of any northern-European ethnic group in that they are born with perfectly straight totally jet-black hair. Also, almond-shaped eyes are seen occasionally among the Irish. For instance; Frank McCourt complained that his schoolmates used to tease him, calling him “squint-eyed Jap.” You’d think someone would put two and two together, especially since every now and then Asian women--many of whom never saw a white man in their lives--living in remote parts of Western China and Outer Mongolia to this day sometimes give birth to blue-eyed babies, and sometimes even babies with red hair and freckles.

If that isn’t enough, however, recently archeologists have uncovered Celtic mummies buried in the deserts of Western China.

http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/features/1997/090997/mummies.html

It would be nearly impossible for a Celtic population, what with their horses and wagons and nomadic tendencies, not to have traded with the Chinese and establish colonies in far-off places, then routinely intermarry and take their families back to the west coast of Europe.

Larry D. Lyons

I seriously doubt that Frank McCourt's appearance has anything to do with the fact that a mummy in China had tartan on it! He doesn't look typically Irish, true, maybe he had some ancestors from the Liverpool Chinese community (lots of movement between Liverpool and Ireland) or maybe some early eastern european immigrants (he looks a bit Serbian imo). Arniep 20:46, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Ireland was settled in pre-Celtic times. As you point out people traded back and forth over long distances. Celtic culture and language arrived in Ireland from central Europe. That does not mean that a large number of Celts arrived in Ireland and displaced the population. --Halib Frisk 09:31, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

The thing is, Larry, horses and wagons may be very useful, but they won't get you to China if you're living on an island. Like -- say! -- Ireland.

Black Scots

Blogs and, um, school worksheets aren't suitable references for wikipedia, especially since they only use the phrase 'Black Scots' without explaining what it means, and they're only discussing a novella about fly fishing anyway. Aren't there any scholarly, peer-reviewed explanations of this term? --Nydas 17:27, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Black scots just refers to Scots with dark hair and eyes. Admittedly they aren't ideal sources but they are examples of the terms usage in a book by a notable author. Arniep 20:09, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Neither source explicitly states that Scots with dark hair and eyes (i.e. most Scots) are known as 'Black Scots'. And anyway, they're a blog and a school worksheet referencing a work of fiction - there's no way that they measure up to wikipedia's standards. Is there any real evidence that this term is remotely inclusion-worthy?--Nydas 20:38, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Removed for the last time. If it's reverted again, I'll ask some other Scottish Wikipedians to take a look at it - you never know, they might want to keep it.--Nydas 17:52, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think Scottish wikipedians are necessarily going to be any more expert on it than anyone else. The fact is the term is used in a major book so it is perfectly fine to state that. Arniep 18:46, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

The book is a work of fiction. If the term has any currency whatsoever, there must be better sources than that.--Nydas 19:22, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, a new reference has been added. It's better, but still weak, IMO. There's very little evidence anywhere that Kenneth I had dark skin.--Nydas 06:35, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Basque/Northern Spain

In the main article for Ireland it mentions recent dna evidence that segments of the Irish population seem to be of Basque descent. Would that information be relevant here?

There's a bit about this in the Iberian Origin talk section above.--Shtove 15:58, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Black hair?

Being an Irish person, I have personally never come across this term until recent years, after joining a forum and hearing it from American members of that forum. I had always naturally assumed it referred to African-descended Irish people.

However, in regard to this term, as applied to black-haired people, I think it should be noted that black hair is the most common hair colour in Ireland as far as I'm aware, as are blue eyes. Also, some mention should probably be made of the surname Black, which is the Anglicisation of Dubh meaning "dark (of complexion or hair)", eg Clann Mhic Gille Dhuibh = "son of the black lad", and similar with the surname Brown. --Mal 22:15, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

A user somewhat confused the article by stating Black Irish referred to people with blue eyes and freckles - all people with whom I have discussed this subject with who have Black Irish ancestry are certain it refers to both dark hair and dark eyes. Arniep 00:42, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

ArnieP,

The term "Black Irish" generally ascribes to Irish individuals with very dark hair, as opposed to the blond or red variation often associated with Ireland and her descendants. Eye color and complexion may vary. Irishman Pierce Brosnan, to whom has dark brown hair and blue eyes has gone on record considering himself a representative of the so-called "Black Irish" look. What Mal finds confusing is the notion that such a term as "Black Irish" even exists, considering that most inhabitants of Ireland are dark haired.

Mal,

Although dark hair is the most common hue in Ireland, for whatever reason, many individuals consider the Irish to be generally rufous or blond. As a result, they term persons of Irish descent having dark brown or black hair as "Black Irish" often suggesting the darker hair, eyes or complexion derives from survivors of the Spanish Armada in Ireland. Colin Farrell with his dark brown hair, brown eyes and medium complexion, along with Lara Flynn Boyle with her brown hair, blue eyes and pale freckled complexion are both looked upon as what some call "Black Irish." – — ArmsHeldOut 03:35, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Quotes from celebrity magazines aren't acceptable as sources for Black Irish. The red hair gene is associated with freckles- this is from a scandinavian and germanic genetic origin not an Atlantic origin. It has been proven in DNA studies that the Western Irish have less germanic and scandinavian genetic forebears therefore they also have less red hair genes, therefore it is inappropriate to suggest that freckles are a characteristic of the Black Irish. Arniep 12:08, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't get this crap, I really don't. I don't know what the ignorant Americans think, but in England and Australia, the stereotypical Irish appearance is one of dark hair (dark brown or black) and fairly pale skin. I might add that this is because A LOT of Irish people look this way. Since when is the typical Irish person red-haired? Why would you have a term like "black Irish" to describe what is possibly the most common look in Ireland? It's well known in somewhere like the UK that on average, the Irish have darker hair than the English. This whole article seems like more American lack of knowledge of other countries. Holymolytree2 (talk) 19:55, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Aidan Gillen and Landon Donovan

Who deleted the pics on Aidan Gillen and Landon Donovan? Aren't they Black Irish as well? They have black/dark hair and olive skin, yet they're of Irish descent. --203.15.122.35 02:34, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

What?!

"3/4 of people in the British Isles are of Basque descent"??!! "88% of Irish people are of Basque descent"??!! I'm sorry, but that just sounds wrong. Explanation please? Schprunkel 23:12, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Many modern geneticists consider the R1b Y-chromosome haplotype to be of Basque/Old European origin. And, since the r1b haplotype is by far the commonest among Irish and British males, these populations are therefore considered to be of Basque origin. I sincerely consider this perspective to be flawed, and I know of some geneticists who also question this interpretation. R1b is more diverse as one moves to the east - R1b in Eastern Europe is more diverse than in Western Europe, and more diverse in Central Asia than in Eastern Europe -, which suggests that the west-east expansion of the R1b haplotype might not be wholly accurate. And the fact that some Asian populations, mainly those of Indo-Aryan/Indo-European origin, such as those of Pakistan, North India and Western China (the Uyghur), who, reportedly, had never had a profound contact with the Old European population, exhibit some degree of r1b haplotype frequency in my opinion is a serious challenge to the Basque origin of r1b theory. Therefore, I think we shouldn't consider by now to be unquestionable and undoubtful the theory of the Basque origin of the Irish and British populations, as some wikipedian descriptions on the matter seem to suggest. It should be remembered that the comparison of Y-chromosome and mtdna haplotype frequencies between populations is not the only means to measure genetic distance. In the 1994 Cavalli-Sforza's book, data showed the Irish and the British to be generally closer to the Romance-speaking populations, the Slavs, and, especially, to the Germanic and Scandinavian populations, than they were to the Basques.201.50.192.253 23:01, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

"Old European" is one thing, but "Basque" is quite another. We have no particular reason to believe that the Old European was a homogenous population of which Basque is the only surviving modern example. Old Europe may have had, and probably did have, widespread genetic and linguistic variation which was lost or amalgamated with later genetic and linguistic influxes. --Saforrest 08:01, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I think the R1b Haplogroup is too much related with Celticity to be ignored. The problem is the Basques themselves. If they are not Indo-European/Aryan why do they look European? If they are not Celtic in origin, why do they have such great R1b frequencies? I think we can relate R1b to Celticity, I haplogroup to Germanics, R1a1 to Slavs and R1a2 with Indo-European/Aryan Hindustanis. All of them branches of an Indo-European/Aryan group. If people would, for example, say Celt instead of Basque, it would definetely be more acurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.181.69.102 (talk) 14:40, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Italian/Irish? No

'Black Irish' in tradition generally refers to persons of pure (or mostly) Irish descent with very dark brown or black hair. The half Irish/Italian characters appearing in the film Goodfellas (although fictional) could have arguably inherited their dark looks by way of Southern Italian lineage, as opposed to an age-old neolithic strain in parts of Ireland.

--ArmsHeldOut 20:43, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Alternate (yet similar) interpretations of 'Black Irish' in tradition

Here are some comments from individuals of Irish descent, as taken from Suite 101 and the Myth of the Black Irish @ http://www.darkfiber.com/blackirish/bicomments.html.

From Suite 101:

1. September 27, 2000 2:34 PM » Marella - Back in anthropology class...

"Black Irish" was used to describe someone with blue-black hair, blue eyes, and pale white skin. This phenotype was used as an example of what can happen when populations breed in isolation (like, on islands). Usually, dark hair goes with dark eyes and skin. But, the lecture went, in some regions, the "Black Irish" combo developed and was retained because of endogamy (breeding within the group). FYI ...

I personally find the term interesting because I have ancestors and cousins with this coloring.

Top 2. September 27, 2000 5:18 PM » Etain - interesting

It's interesting how many stories surround it all. The Irish have many types of coloring ...all genetic imports. The most overwhelmingly common is dark hair or even more common ..very dark reddish tinged brown, blue eyes, pale skin..however... i think the pale skin thing might come from no sunshine..like EVER..in FOREVER! *L*

Leona

6. August 12, 2003 3:53 PM » ryanblackirish - Black Irish is present in my family

I would definitely fall under the category of black irish. I have jet black hair and brown eyes and pretty pale skin. Most people say oh your probably Italian and I have a sister with red hair and blue eyes have any of you ever seen that before. It kinda bothers me because eveytime I go somewhere with my sister people are in awe of how we are brother and sister.

7. December 2, 2003 5:54 PM » smacvill33 - Black Irish

You folks have missed a few other possible explanations for "Black Irish". They say that the black irish were a mix of Spanish and Irish blood from when the Spanish Armada crashed on the Western seabord of Ireland in 1588. The remaining survivors were said to have stayed in Ireland and intermarried w/Irish women there, creating olive-complected, black-haired, dark-eyed descendents. It is also said the Black Irish are those people who still live in the Caribbean today on an island called Marreats. They are a mix of African and Irish (and indigenous/indian too, I'm sure), exactly like me! to this day, they still have a Celtic accent.

39. January 10, 2006 2:02 AM » Marcyshamb - Re: Re: Black Irish - American myth

In response to Re: Black Irish - American myth posted by irish7774:

Recient genetic testing puts the Irish most closely related to the Basque of Spain, and the original people of Europe. The Irish don't have dark skin. Their skin is light, and often freckled. Their hair can be black, brown, blond or red. What differntiates the black irish from other irish is their black hair only. Strait or wavy thick black Caucasian hair.

The eyes, can be blue, green or brown..but often green. I know many black irish families with blue eyes.

Here in New England, where most of the Irish in the USA arrived from the potato famine era one speaks of them mainly being from Western and South Western Irleand, catholic, and black Irish. The potato famine didn't affect all of ireland, but was rather something visited upon Western Irelands catholic farming folks, which is where the black Irish hail from.

Legends in Ireland place the black irish ancestrys origins in Spain, and give over two stories for their existance.. One story, which is pritty much discounted tells of the sinking of the Spanish Amada and male sailor survivors washing up on the western shores of Ireland and mating with the local coastal village women.

The other legend, with some of the details based in fact, but still not completly provable tells of the spanish seaport that was built at gallway bay, west ireland during the sixtten or seventeen hundreds. The fact is the territory of the black Irish fan out from the central position of gallway bay. The fact is the seaport did exist and was spanish. The rest is only speculation.

Given the new discovery, that the Irish are decendent of the original europeaners and closest relatives to the Basques...and the Basques being in northern Spain France lends, if anything, curiosity when thinking of the Black Irish claim or origins.

The black Irish in the USA hail from two sources..the actual black Irish who came here during the potato famine from western Ireland circa mid 1800's...and the other kind..folks who wanted to pass as white, and so claimed to be black Irish mistaking the term to mean irish that were dark or black.

For an irishman, whats black in the black irish is the hair. If someone is irish and has dark skin, it came by them from elsewhere outside of Ireland..and probably was aquired on this side of the pond.

From Readers Comments on The Myth of the Black Irish:

10) Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Scott Locklin Interesting article. A few comments: firstly, my family tradition was that the Black Irish were desccendants of Spanish who escaped during the Moorish invasions of Europe. Second, I have read a number of older sourcebooks who identify the Firbolgs as the Black Irish; the race prior to the Tuatha de Dannan. They were supposed to have been swarthy types, and were identified with Iberia (which supposedly had a linguistic link with the word for the underworld, as opposed to the "sun people" - the Tuatha de Dannan), and were supposed to have retreated to the present day areas of "black irish" enclaves. There's also a reference in Tacitus' "Germanica" to swarthy "Iberian" welshmen. I'll be digging into primary sources as soon as I get my library ID, if you're interested in references.

12) Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Betty Massman Hi ....... I enjoyed your article on the "Black Irish", but I'd like to know if there is any connection between them and the "Black Dutch" who descended from the Sephardic Jews of Spain? The Black Dutch seem to display the same characteristics as the Black Irish ...... dark hair, dark eyes, dark complexion. They were in Spain at the time of the Inquisition in the 1400's/ 1500's, and I am curious as to whether or not the Black irish descend from the same bunch. Do you know? I haven't done a lot of research on the Black Dutch, mainly because I don't have any in my ancestry as far as I can tell, but I'm a genealogical researcher and some of my clients have asked about them. I understand that there is a Black Dutch Research Project underway through Gelee Corley Hendrix, C.G., F.A.S.G. at 3 Acorn Court, Greenville SC 29609-3111. I will get in touch with this person and see what's been done, and I will keep you posted. One friend has Black Irish in her background, but so far, she has batted zero in finding out anything about them ... she was very happy to see your article. I will also get in touch with M. J. Laney and see if he knows of any connections. The Black Dutch also went up into Germany and Russia, and maybe some other countries too, then emigrated to America in the 18th and 19th centuries. Very interesting.

7) Fri, 15 Nov 1996, John Whitehouse, Jr. It is a fascinating subject. I have been in search of some reference to differentiate between red haired green-eyed Irish, usually with freckles, on the one hand, and the blue-eyed with black hair and very pale skin. These are, to my observation, the prevalent Irish types. My question is: what is their prevenance, what was the difference between the cultures from which they hail? I've been wondering about this for years, particularly since both the "red" and the "black" appear to be Catholic. By the way, I have heard this black-haired, PALE, blue-eyed type as "Black Irish", also. If you even have a clue as to the answer to my question, I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks. [p.s.] I forgot to say that I find your paper to be an excellent piece of research. well-written and well-researched. It's relatively rare to find something of such quality in cyberspace. [p.p.s.] One question, though. Do you have any knowledge or suspicions concerning the place of origin for the red-haired green-eyed Irish phenotype?

14) Mon, 7 Sep 1998, Marvin C. Shaw None of the above. Black Irish refers to a physical type including milk-white skin, often with freckles, blue eyes, and jet black hair, found among most Celtic peoples.

Very interesting viewpoints ... --ArmsHeldOut 21:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

-HNL-well i have one thing to say to you all about this how is it im mostly irish and some whit but drk olive skin black hair, mind you my grandmother does geneology for a living and /yes has found that my roots from ireland then trace to spain?? If anyone wants to debate genetics go for it!

East VS West?

Although studies have shown the western half of Ireland as having somewhat less Germanic DNA, it should be known that darker phenotypes are not exclusive to the west. Actors Aidan Gillen, Colin Farrell and Pierce Brosnan (depicted by some as 'Black Irish') each hail from the east of Eire (County Dublin and County Louth respectively). Furthermore, a good quantity of Irish persons with blond, red or (light to medium) brown hair can also be found in the west. My point? Those who believe that raven-haired Irish can only be found in the west should take what they read (regardless of source material) with a grain of salt and invest some time in personal research. After all, nothing beats what you observe with your own two eyes. Food for thought.

On a side note, here are dual links to a couple of images featuring 2 well known celebrities who some consider to well exemplify the 'Black Irish' look.

The first is the aforementioned Colin Farrell[1], a good example of the dark hair, brown eyed, medium to olive complexioned type.

The second is Courtney Cox.[2] With her dark hair, blue eyes, pale skin and freckles, this American beauty is an ideal model of a type which reflects the influence of fair Germanic peoples on the Atlantic derived inhabitants of Ireland and Britain.

--ArmsHeldOut 07:11, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Please merge this into Irish people

I feel this subject could easily be merged into the irish American page as the "black irish" is an american term and unheard of in Ireland. Is it so suprising that many Irish have dark hair? The americans respond by writing a wikipedia page on it. Take it down. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 60.240.57.42 (talk) 10:02, 16 February 2007 (UTC).

Many individuals (not just Americans) are ignorant about the appearance of Europeans and often stereoptype them to look and act a certain way. Although many Irish have very dark hair, quite a following perceive them as typically being redheads or blondes with light eyes and freckles. I presume this is how the term initially came about, but I can assure you that is not only used in the United States. In fact, I was introduced to it by an elder couple from Ireland with connections to Scotland. I do agree; however, that the term likely originated in America, but it can actually be heard in several different nations.

Be advised that the opening statement was modified sometime today to address your concerns, by referencing the origin of the term as being in North America. With that stated, there is no need to replace the word 'traditional' with 'American' is there?

Have a another look below.

Black Irish is a traditional term believed to have originated in North America that commonly ascribes to a dark brown or black hair phenotype appearing in persons of Irish descent.

Perhaps an article on the supposed "Black Irish" is silly, considering that so many of the Irish are naturally dark haired. Nonetheless, there are many other sites on the internet which discuss this term at length. With Wiki, you can at least have a say and try to make the information which is out there as accurate as possible.

I think it should be merged into Irish people. This article should probably be redirected into Black people in Ireland. --Revolución hablar ver 10:38, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Also, I'd like to add that lighter hair/lighter eyes is just a stereotype. Most Irish still today have at least dark hair (brown/black). That's not to say that the Irish did not have lighter hair before the Viking and Saxon invasions, but that these invasions had a large influence in introducing these phenotypes into the Irish Celtic population, so much so they became a stereotype. --Revolución hablar ver 10:40, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, 'Black (haired) Irish' is just a traditional term that most likely originated in the US which refers to white Irish people with very dark brown/black hair - think actor Peter Gallagher. The term generally does not denote typical Irish folk with light or medium brown hair. John F. Kennedy, for example, would not be a good example of the 'Black Irish' look. The term used in the main context of this article really has nothing to do with actual black people living in Ireland.

As you've stated, many Irish do have very dark hair. On the other hand, light eyes is quite common even amongst those with dark brown or black hair. FYI, the notion of lighter haired Irish (particularly redheads) being falsely perceived as the majority is already referenced in the opening paragraph of the article. See below:

'Black Irish is a traditional term believed to have originated in North America that commonly ascribes to a dark brown or black hair phenotype appearing in persons of Irish descent. It can be distinguished in contrast to the (lighter) brown, blond or red hair color variant, the latter stereotypically perceived by many to solely personify the look of typical Irish folk.'

Bias against Irish unrelated?

The term 'Black Irish' used in the main context of this article is non-derogatory, as it refers to people of Irish descent with very dark brown or black hair color, accompanied by a romantic myth pertaining to the Spanish Armada or genetic studies linking the Irish to the Basque Country. Bias against the Irish during the Victorian Age of Britain and 19th century America targeted all persons of Irish descent (especially Catholics) for social and political reasons, regardless of physical appearance and is another subject entirely. As such, the section 'Racial bias against Irish' should either be moved to the Anti-Irish racism page or truncated and placed in the 'Other Uses' section of this article.

--ArmsHeldOut 21:11, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Reference to talk page in the lead paragraph

I don't know if there's any relevant policy here, but I don't think the article should refer the reader to the talk page. If something important needs to be said, say it in the article. I'm inclined to remove this reference (from the lead paragraph), but since I am not familiar with this topic, nor the discussion on the talk page that prompted the inclusion of this reference, I will wait for now. It would be good for someone with more background on the matter to include relevant points made on the talk page directly into the article. VectorPosse 07:43, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Since I heard no objection, I made the change. If the point made on the talk page was worthy of the article, then that point should be reincorporated into the article. VectorPosse 21:57, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Cromwell & Whiteboys paragraphs

Whatever about the rest of this article the last two paragraphs were completely inaccurate:

(1)"Cromwell's forcible injection of Protestants into a solidly Catholic society -- with the explicit intent of expelling the Catholics -- aroused strong anti-English and anti-Protestant emotions..."

Cromwell's forces were in ireland to continue the English Civil War. While Cromwell certianly had anti-catholic beliefs, his primary concern in Ireland was to rout the loyalists to the Crown and their allies in Confederate Ireland which he saw as a threat to the revolution. Protestant settlers had been planted many times before Cromwell's arrival, the actions of his troops brought the plantation saga to its apex (after the events catholics owned under five percent of Irish land).

(2) "...culminating in the formation of the Irish secret society called Whiteboys around 1761, named for the white robes they wore."

This is clearly not the case. The issue culminated in the battles of the Boyne, Aughrim and the Treaty of Limerick. The period after the Boyne was marked by the rise of the Protestant Ascendancy and the affect of the penal laws on the catholic majority. The Whiteboys and other groups like them more likely arose out of this reality. Much of the anti-catholic social order was quelled after Catholic Emancipation in 1778.

(3)"This split sections of Irish society into three classes: Catholic Whiteboys, Protestant Orangemen, and Blackfeet."

There is no evidence of this whatsoever. The major classes were the landowning Protestant Ascendancy. The Protestant tenant class and the Catholic tenant class and the Rising middle class.

(4)"Blackfeet were Irish Catholics who refused to adhere to the rigid Whiteboy code and were severely mistreated by the Whiteboys for their perceived treason."

The whiteboys were one of the more prominent secret societies in 18th and 19th century Ireland. These groups who were generally found in rural areas rebelled against the local establishment. Irish society changed rapidly during this period as pre act of union industrialisation began and the Inclosure Acts changed the fabric of rural society. Various taxes, tithes, penal laws, anti-British feeling and vindictive landlords helped drive many to arms. The so-called Whiteboy code was a reaction to this stratification of society, particularly the rise of the tenant classes, and which generally pushed for a return to the pre-inclosure system of commons. This agrarian unrest was not unique to Ireland and it is important to remember that the whiteboys were one of a number of agrairan anti-establishment groupings in Ireland of that period (others being the Defenders, the Peep O'Day Boys, .

As for the term Blackfeet there is no evidence to support that its use was widespread, if at all.

(5) "The term Blackfeet was often shortened to Black Irish, meaning Irish that were free thinkers and did not adhere to the strict Catholic v. Protestant didactic."

There is absolutely no evidence to support this. The "...strict Catholic v. Protestant didactic" was much reduced in late 18th century Ireland thanks to catholic emancipation and the rise of the United Irishmen.

You are perpetuating a farce

This entire article is perpetuating a complete and fabricated misuse of the term. The term "Black Irish" does not refer to people of Irish heritage or descent with black hair. It refers to a class of Irish people, generally the Catholic underclass of Ireland. Black is often used as an unfavorable term in this and similar contexts: e.g., Black '47, the Black Rose. The term "Black Irish" was used to distinguish from the "noble" Irish, i.e. the families of the Protestant Norman English settlers. It has vague ethnic overtones, in the same broad sense that the English called not only the Africans "black," but also the Maori, the Australian Aborigines, etc. The Celtic, Catholic Irish, especially those in the poor rural areas, especially those in Western Ireland, were not necessarily seen as "white." It's important to understand that these perceptions were vague and not as clearly defined as they are in the late 20th- or early 21st-century Western World. This is a concept that would not have been articulated or classified as it is now. But, when censuses were taken in the mid-19th century, "Irish" was not the same classification as "white." The Irish, like the Italians, were a different race than the "Anglo-Saxon" (also a misnomer, as most descendants of families who consider themselves Anglo-Saxon generally have at least as much Celtic (via Scotland, Cornwall, and Wales, and old Britain) and (especially) Norman blood as they do that of the Angles or the Saxons). So, the term "Black Irish' has been used by different people at different times in slightly different ways, but it was always a variation on the same theme - referring to the poor, Catholic Irish underclass. It was mostly employed by those who wanted to make a distinction in the fact that there were Protestant, educated, "civilized" "Irish" folk.

I don't know when this "Black Irish" term in regard to hair color and the further extrapolation into theories about insertion of (e.g.) Iberian blood came up, but it is quite obviously a relatively recent fabrication and a misuse of the historical term. Perhaps it came from Irish Americans who had heard the term referred to by their ancestors, but had no idea of the meaning, since the context had made it an outdated term by then and no longer employed, except as a historical term of self-reference - much is the same way that African-Americans would refer to, or in extreme cases even use, the term "nigger" when it may have fallen out of use or favor by those who originally employed it as a pejorative. The oppressed like to keep their history alive more than do the oppressors (see, for example, which side preserves the history of the Holocaust more - the Jews or the Germans). So, my theory is that these young Irish Americans would hear their grandparents use the term in conversation, but not having lived through the oppression of the Irish themselves, never heard it used against them. The term was obviously of some import, but they had no idea of its meaning. So, a conjecture meaning was created, the obvious one being that it referred to those with dark features. And, as has been pointed out already, although dark coloring is held by a majority of Irish, the stereotype, especially in America, is that the Irish have fair hair, especially red. It's not hard to see where the conjecture would originate, but the fact is that this is not the historical origin of the term and this encyclopedia should stop perpetuating it.

No historical literature support for Black Irish myth

An exhaustive search of the histories of Ireland tell of no sizable settlement of Ireland by any Spanish Armada sea-men. Indeed, the term, Black Irish hardly appears in the indexes of any Irish history. This term is indeed a farcical ahistorical myth. Dogru144 16:41, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

This article pretty much affirms that the Spanish Armada did not contribute much at all to the Irish genepool. Read the origin section.

--ArmsHeldOut 02:24, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

How is identifying a myth perpetuating a hoax?

No one here is claiming the story of the Black Irish, in its various permutations, is historically valid. People are simply attempting to verify its origins and usage as a term and the veracity of the various definitions. Indeed the inclusion of the page and such descriptions should aid people coming to a decision about whether it is hoax or not. Furthermore, those who claim it is spurious need to state their reasons and using source material to debunk the various claims. Otherwise their argument is just as baseless as those they are targeting.

A hoax and a farce are not the same thing. No one used the word "hoax." This is, however, a farce. "Black Irish" is a social/political/religious term, NOT a genetic/cosmetic one. 71.192.139.56 (talk) 23:27, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Popular Culture page

The administrator removed the popular culture page, based on its extraneous nature. For those who are interested, here are the deleted sections:

• On an episode of NBC's 30 Rock, talk show host Conan O'Brien (playing himself) calls Jack Donaghy, a character portrayed by regular cast member Alec Baldwin, a "Black Irish bastard."

• In the December 2005 issue of Life (magazine), former Bond actor Pierce Brosnan told the publication, "I know what it's like to loathe oneself. To feel that deep self-loathing. It's painful and ugly and [bleeping] unwanted. And it gets in the way. I can dip in there, into the old Black-Irish melancholy."

• In the third season of HBO's dramatic TV series Oz, Irish American characters Ryan O'Reily and Sean Murphy bond over the Spanish Armada myth of the Black Irish.

Spanish seaport was built in Galway Bay

I have read before that in West Ireland (Galway Bay) a Spanish seaport was built there in the Sixteen or seventeen hundreds, is this true? - The Daddy 23:27, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Not sure, but it is certainly possible. However, genealogists (such as Stephen Oppenheimer) believe that the Irish, English, Scottish and Welsh owe much of their ancestry to ancient (not modern) inhabitants from the Iberian Peninsula who migrated to Britain during the Mesolithic Age and are closely related to the Basque people of Northern Spain and Southwestern France. The Armada myth on the other hand has been disproven by geneticists as most of the survivors were killed by English soldiers or eventually found their way back to Spain, save for a good handful. In addition, the Irish lack genetic markers E3b and J, which can be found to at least some degree in the present Spanish genepool (with exception to the Basque people who share a high R1b frequency with Western Ireland).

By the by, some of the haplotype percentages documented in the Iberian Connection segment of this article (i.e., .. where it varies from region to region in a range from 42% to 75%, but mostly with percentages in the 50s and 60s) do not correlate properly with the references provided for citation purposes and this will need to be cleaned up at some point, but you can still find a lot of useful information in those links.

Hope this helps.

--ArmsHeldOut 12:28, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I think you mean the 'Spanish Arch' in Galway. In fact this was actually a fortification built in the harbour to repel a possible Spanish invasion of Ireland in 1588. However, there was extensive trade between places like Galway and Cork and Spain in the 1500s and 1600s. In fact the economy of early modern Galway was essentially built on this trade. So whether the Spanish actually left behind a large gene pool in the area, I don't know, but their fishermen and merchants were certainly around in considerable numbers at the time. Jdorney 13:06, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Hiya, just an addition with regards to the spanish having a seaport in ireland, this is probably reference to one of the spanish expeditions to ireland in the late 16th early 17th century. These expeditions werent actually because of the black irish/iberian connection but rather because politically and religiously catholic spain was a close ally to irish rebelling against england. Around 1600AD a small spanish army landed in southern ireland and fortified the coastal town of kinsale, planning to link with another spanish force and with an irish rebellion but they were immediatly besieged by the english in a siege that lasted 3 months in what is called the battle of kinsale. Whilst in this period spanish agents and in some cases troops did have a presence in ireland this does not contribute to the black irish phenomena which is likely more connected to something that happened thousands of years ago when iberian seafarers settled in parts of the british isles. B.Vargas 27.11.08

Simplify by expanding technical references

For example, "ancient inhabitants of Ireland can be traced back to the Iberian Peninsula, as a result of a series of migrations that took place during the Mesolithic and to a lesser extent the Neolithic Age" would be easier to digest if "Mesolithic" were replaced with "late Ice Age" or even "10- to 20,000 years ago". Just a thought. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.129.251.17 (talk) 16:41, August 24, 2007 (UTC)

Irish Moors

I think this article mixes the term Irish moor which refers to micks like me that have dark curly hair which supposedly came from moorish refugees that were shipwrecked in Ireland after the storm that ran into the Spanish Armada and black Irish that has more than one connotation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.247.91.191 (talk) 21:37, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there are various interpretations of the term Black Irish (some get way out of hand mind you). Stories surrounding the Spanish Armada, however, have generally been debunked by anthropologists and the like as genetic evidence to support these claims is lacking. Apparently, the English were ruthless in disposing of the majority of shipwrecked forigners. Still, there are others (like geneticist Stephen Oppenheimer) who suggest that the Irish and British have much in common with the Basque people of Northern Spain and Southwestern France, as they share a common haplotype frequency. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.171.167.175 (talk) 03:34, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Interesting Article...but

I still don't understand how one article can cover the various uses of the term 'Black Irish'. Some regard the 'Black Irish' as a racial group derived from the Basques, and others use it as a term for any Irishman who happens to have black hair. If you look at the audience in this photo [[3]]] of a large group of Basques, this photo could just as well have been taken in Limerick or Wexford. There is a wide variety of 'looks', just as in Ireland. In fact the bearded man stood extreme left wearing a blue windcheater could be my twin brother. But to say that 'All Irish people with dark features are derived from the Basques' just doesn't hold water when you see what the Basques actually look like. Even accepting the very high incidence of Iberian genes among the native Irish, there doesn't seem to be one definitive 'Basque' look, does there? Not wishing to be insulting, but if there is a 'Basque' trait, then it appears to be more of a 'nose' thing than a 'hair' thing. Puzzling, isn't it. ChrisRed 11:12, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Chris, the problem are not the Basques but Celticity. That photograph could as well have been taken in Lisbon, Madrid or Seville. Here in the Iberian Peninsula, people are... say... 90% brown to dark brown or black haired, being the blonder and red headed types more common on the Northwest (some say 20%). Muslims have successfully contributed to reduce blondism in South Iberia but blondism was never the majority or near half or whatever. If we agree that the Celts were mainly dark haired with a minority of blondes and red heads from 10 to 35 per cent, we can surpass all this thing by relating R1b to celts instead of Basques. Assuming this to be truth we can say that (virtually) all Irish and Iberians (specially in the centre and West. Being the muslim influence bigger as we go South) descend from Celts independently of their hair colour. The difference between Ireland being more blond and Iberia being darker is due to Gemanis in Ireland and Muslims in Iberia. What I found puzzling is the eye colour, not the hair colour (Even in England itself, the hair colour varies a lot but it is not significant to form independent ethnicities). In Portugal and Spain it is something like this: 60% pure brown 30% mixed or hazel 15% blue and grey eyes (we don't have the concept of grey eyes here) 5% pure green But in Ireland it seems to be something like this: 42% blue eyes 30% light mixed eyes 27% green and dark mixed eyes 1% pure brown eyes I found it odd Ireland to have only 1% of pure brown eyes. i've been many time to London and the ethnic English there have some 20 to 30 percent pure brown eyes. I don't belive English from London to be darker eyed than Irish, so it may be something like this: 42% blue eyes 30% light mixed eyes 20% pure brown eyes 8% green and mixed dark eyes It is too different. Why is that? It's puzzling for me. The hair colour is not so puzzling because we have a greater Germanic influence in Ireland and 800 years of muslim presence in Southern Spain and 500 year old muslim presence is southrn Portugal. In the centre of Iberia, muslims stayed for 350 years. They never really left too much genetic imprints but they left enough to justify the diferences among Portugal and Spain when compaired to Irland: Portugal and Spain: 30% Black to Dark Brown hair 60% Brown hair 10% Blond Hair Red heads are less than 1%. Maybe a half. In Ireland: 40% Black to Dark Brown hair 35% Brown hair 15% Blond hair 10% Red hair If we take that red hair is not normal and that it tend to evolve in isolated populations (ex. living in islands) the differences are minimal. But the eyes... the eyes are puzzling. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.181.69.102 (talk) 15:41, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• English are more dark eyed than irish , i think that in England the percentage of light eyes is 55-60% (Coon) , in other hand the english are more fair-haired than Irish .--GaiusCrastinus (talk) 09:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I would think it all has to do with breeding among isolated populations. FYI, the pairing of dark hair and eyes was at one point dominant among all Europeans, up until a mutation occurred in Northern Europe that subsequently yielded lighter hair and eyes. Certain males viewed these phenotypic traits (e.g., blond or light brown hair) to be quite rare and thus attractive, particularly in women and through natural selection the genes were reproduced in rapid succession eventually becoming most common in Northern European types. The prevalence of persons in Ireland with medium or dark brown hair, blue eyes and pale skin (think Carly Hennessey [4]) can likely also be explained if one again applies the principle of natural selection here, instead focusing less on lighter hair as one of varying desired traits. Of course, this is just a hypothesis.

Pretty interesting (and brief) article here: [5]

--ArmsHeldOut (talk) 20:35, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Iam

What they call "black irish". My grandparents from ireland are part spanish. They have medium skin with either think dark hair or red thick hair. I have natuarally cheastnut hair and hazel eyes. I dont know about the Iberian desent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.201.2.185 (talk) 18:07, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, the Irish encompass various influences, including Iberians, Scandinavian deriven-Normans and English, to name a few. The genepool of the Iberians who may or may not have had a signifigant impact on Irish and British populations (presumably during the Mesolithic Age) is likely quite different from modern day Spanish inhabitants whose genetic makeup has and continues to be influenced by alternate ethnic strains, some of which have been Greek, Visigoth/Suevian (Germanic tribes), Roman and Jewish. With that stated, keep in mind that many recent ethnic contributions to the Iberian Peninsula were certainly not present circa the Mesolithic Age when these supposed migrations to Ireland and Britain initially took place.

Even the Portuguese and Spanish have minor genetic differences between the two and consider themselves ethnically distinct from the other. According to a study made by the University of Coimbra in Portugal and the University of Madrid in Spain (published in the magazine Immunogenetics), the Portuguese population "have stayed relatively isolated in the last few thousand years which makes them unique from the rest of the Iberian population."

Now, if you have legitimate Spanish roots that can be traced at least several generations back, then you can consider yourself to be partially Spaniard. However, if you are assuming that you have roots going back to Spain solely because of your physical appearance then you might want to think again.

--ArmsHeldOut (talk) 00:07, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Only 3% of Black Hair ?

for me 3% of Black hair is too low..when i went to Ireland i saw much more black haired irish than red haired ..Black hair are at least 20-25% of the population ,i believe that this study is of Coon.. well i said that the French have only 4% of Black Hair...ridicolous there are more black haired in France than Northern Italy , where i live.--GaiusCrastinus (talk) 09:10, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Keep in mind that very dark brown hair (which makes up roughly 40%) is often mistaken for black hair. The actor Colin Farell (whom I would think serves as a good example of the "Black Irish" look) has medium to dark brown hair, but some people (oddly enough) view his hair color as black. Truly "jet black" hair is quite rare and can lack lighter undertones even in the sun. Rock 'n' Roll icon Elvis Presley is a better example of someone with black or very dark brown hair, although he supposedly colored his hair at some point in his career. I have found that opinions regarding hair color tend to vary quite a bit depending on who you might ask. Many people also have trouble finding the difference between dark blond and light brown hair and go to lengths (women especially) nitpicking about it. Go figure.

--ArmsHeldOut (talk) 16:53, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

First Settlement in the West/Black Irish link

Just came across a post on 'The Irish Gene' in a travel forum of all places. "The first people in Ireland arrived about 10,000 years ago. Nobody knows exactly where but since the first sites are in the south-west of the country the money is on the Iberian penisula (Spain and Portugal), there could have been people arriving in the north of the country from Scotland as well since the two countries are so close. The first recorded language is Q Celtic while in Wales they spoke P Celtic, two branches of the same language but very far apart. There is evidence of human presence in Britain much longer than in Ireland, maybe going back 40,000 years (not sure of this figure), probably bands of hunters moving up from Continental Europe. The reason for the differences you can see today are down to subsequent population movements. Ireland have had many influxes; Viking, Normans, English. England, of course, also had the Saxons. In the west of Ireland some people are very dark skinned and look Spanish; a legacy many would say of the Spanish Armarda and subsequent shipwrecks where sailors stayed and integrated into the local community. I don't see much difference between British and Irish faces, compared to say, the rest of Europe which can be very obvious at times. I'd imagine it would be quite difficult for someone to trace their ancestory unbroken back to the start of human presence in an area, everyone is a mix of everyone else." Archeobabe, The Lonely Planet Thorn Tree Forum.

Whilst it is not referenced, the very fact that the poster mentioned that the first settlements appeared in the west provides another potential clue/trail to follows, linking the first people of Ireland with the Black Irish (given both are being located in the west). Certainly something worth pursuing in future archeological/physical anthropological studies.

Response: FYI, persons who might fit the somewhat loose and varying description of the "Black Irish" look certainly do not all originate from the west of Eire necessarily. This is a fact that should not be overlooked, but often is.

--ArmsHeldOut (talk) 17:09, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

What really interested me in the OP was the notion that the west of Ireland may have been the epicenter - or at least a major concentration - of people who match this description some thousands of years ago. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ajwitney (talk • contribs) 18:07, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Explanation for "Black Irish" and their origins

I could explain 3 kinds of theories in regards to the origins of the "Black Irish" in terms of hair color and ethnological traits. 1. The ancestors of the Celts are said to been a branch of the Indo-Europeans whom may invaded and settled India about 2000 BCE, thus a closer link to the peoples of South Asia than to the Germanic or Scandinavian tribes, not entirely made up of blond or blue-eyed people we portrayed them being a "Nordic" people. The Mediterranean peoples of Iberia and southern Europe (i.e. the Greeks, Italians and North Africans) can resemble those from the Middle East (i.e. Turks, Arabs, Iranians and Armenians), and darker shades of brown hair are indeed common in these ethnic groups whom belong to the "Caucasoid" race. 2. The hypothetical Fomorians of a cross of African "black" and European "white" races, which was an anti-Irish epithet used in Britain in the turn of the century (1890s-1910s?) to consider the Irish, despite being an Indo-European and Celtic people are descendants of black Africans. The Fomorian myth is they are a maritime people of "Moors" whom sailed along the North Atlantic into Ireland to settle there about 1,000 years ago and intermarry with "pure white" peoples to create an Irish "race" to further perpeutate anti-Irish stereotypes and supported Britain's ethnic or sectarian discriminatory policies against Irish Catholics. 3. A new theory about a possible connection of Celts with the Lapps of Scandinavia, whom are a shorter husky and dark haired people of Finnic ancestors whom like the Basques their habitation dated back 5,000 years, but the Lappish language is of Uralic-Altaic not Indo-European origins. Long dark hair (straight, but most of the Irish have more brownish, not shiny bluish hue) is a common racial trait of peoples in "Asiatic" races (that is East Asian or Siberian peoples, but also of North American Indians) and some ethnologists believed Asiatic peoples sailed across the Arctic ocean from either Northern Asia or the northernmost point of the Americas (Greenland or Iceland) to eventually live in Europe (the British Isles or Scandinavia) 10,000 years ago. Whether any of the 3 theories can be proven or supported, it may (or not) answer the originality of the darker-haired segments of the Irish population, while you have a majority of Irish people with reddish- or light brown hair. If there was evident African admixture of the Irish, you would have a higher ratio of the so-called "curly" hair type associated with black Africans or it may result in darker skin but the Irish of Celtic stock doesn't, but can be found in Middle Eastern peoples of the "Caucasoid" race and certain racial traits of the Irish are mainly Northern or Western European in appearance. Also to point out any Asiatic admixture: slanted eyes or the inner eyefold aren't found in any Irish of white European origins either, note it fails to back up the theory of Sub-Arctic Asiatic settlement in Ireland. +71.102.5.6 (talk) 06:51, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

In addition to what you've stated, the hair texture of "Asiatic races" is quite unique in contrast to that of Irish/Caucasoid hair (regardless of hue - be it brown, red, blond or black). Difficult to explain, but I've always found that even the straightest hair types in Caucasians have a slight wavy/silkier quality, much unlike the somewhat coarser hair texture of Asians.

--ArmsHeldOut (talk) 23:03, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Another use of Black Irish/Scottish

While I'm not proud of it my family is full of racist bigots. As such I am use to the term Black Irish/Scottish meaning one of mixed Irish and Scottish decent, which I am. I have also heard it from a Scott when he found of my mixed decent. A Black Irish is a Scottsman with Irish in him, and a Black Scott is an Irish with Scott blood in them. Not sure just how commonly it is used, but it is rather common in Deutsch areas of Pennsylvania. Though they are the same people who use to refuse to say that Jews and non-hispanic caucasians were not equal, and who called people of Italian descent niggers (please excuse the term if it is offensive to you, I am using it to point out the offensiveness that this term has). Arenlor (talk) 02:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Take this whole page with a pinch of salt

There are so many errors in this page that it devalues Wikipeida as a whole project... the term "Black Irish", which always applied to the poor classes, generally the Catholics in times gone by, has been hijacked for so many modern purposes that having one page to describe all of the possible references to it is completely pointless. Barack Obama is now jokingly but commonly referred to as "Black Irish" as his ancestors hail from Co. Offaly, but I don't see a paragraph on that! This page is pointless, ill informed and unnecessary. --JJ was here (talk) 21:17, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, thanks for the rant. Do you have anything positive to contribute to the article's improvement? ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 00:18, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I've made my point. Wikipedia would be better off without it. It does nothing to teach anyone about anything.--JJ was here (talk) 20:30, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

This page provides many clues regarding the etymology of the term Black Irish and is thus a useful addition to Wikipedia. Granted it is incomplete, but that is the nature of many Wikipedia entries - especially with topics like this where knowledge is still being gathered. That is not to say it 'does not teach anyone about anything' however - a rather black and white, emotive position to adopt in response to other people's more constructive contributions. I mean where would education be if we all took this stance in relation to other areas of inquiry, where the data is just as piecemeal and conflicting? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ajwitney (talk • contribs) 17:39, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

This is not the first time someone has suggested that the term Black Irish originally pertained to the poorer classes of Ireland who came to America's shores subsequent the Great Famine.

JJ, if you have information on this subject, you would do the article a great service by contributing to it with your knowledge. Citing your references would also help, but that's a given.

--ArmsHeldOut (talk) 04:40, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I first like to say thanks to everyone who supported this Wikipedia page. As a person of Black Irish origin on my father's side, I can honestly say that Black Irish is a very legitimate ethic group; however, it is also a name that other ethic groups attribute themselves too. Personally, though I am one of the small percentage of Irish that traces to the Spanish Armada, specifically in my case somewhere around Northern Ireland. Both from what I have seen in both my father and grandfather and what my grandfather, my families Black Irish origins have the very unusual trait of being darker skinned like people of the Spanish community and in my dad's case even darker. Also like Spanish (at least I think the Spanish do this too), the people in my family who are Black Irish tend to get tan faster and darker to the point that we can honestly be mistaken from a distance as someone of Egyptian and even Saudi Arabian origin (its kinda sad though only the people of Middle Eastern origins can tell the difference by looking beyond skin color). My dad spent a couple of years fighting around that area so we consider the tan is more "perminant". Now I bring my story to you attention not only to highlight that Black Irish is an legitimate sub-ethic group; but, we are a ethic group that attributes ourselves to being Irish and Spanish. 143.215.103.134 (talk) 00:30, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Also this may be just my family, but we really don't care that other ethic groups call refer to themselves as Black Irish. To other more nationalistic groups this may seem confusing; however, you have to realize something. That something Not every person or every ethic group agrees with the necessity of modernism and concepts of modernity, especially ones that suggest that all true ethic groups have to unify under a common language, have enemy that makes them different from nearby groups, have a common origin, and have a common ideology. 143.215.103.134 (talk) 00:30, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Thus, what makes black Irish unique and confusing is that we are an example of anti-modernity sub-ethic group. We come about when the Spanish when Spanish nationalism was prominent and Irish when Irish nationalism was becoming prominent. There are Black Irish that are Protestant and Black Irish that are Catholicism; and in my family the feud between the two still would go on if it wasn't for the fact that we are unified in our independence from Great Britain and distaste at being compared England. In fact, maybe this is just my family but we feel we are Irish first and Black Irish second, so if a clearly African Irishman, Native American Irishman, or even Scot Irishman want to call themselves Black Irish that is perfectly ok with us because they are still Irish. 143.215.103.134 (talk) 00:30, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Armenian settlement of Ireland?

It's widely thought by some ethnological historians on Ireland was a destination for other Mediterranean and Caucasus peoples about 5,000 years ago from modern-day Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan. The possible linguistic, cultural and theological connection between Celts of Hibernia and Caucasian Iberia was noted in academic studies on the origins of "Black Irish" myths, and how the Irish people have admitted to some form of affinity with the Armenians of Cicilia (Turkey). + —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.102.36.5 (talk) 21:52, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

As I mentioned above in my family traces its Black Irish origins to one of 5000 crew of Spanish Armada who went MIA off the Irish coast. Thus I not really sure that at least in my family of Black Irish, we cannot completely identify with the the Armenians in Turkey and especially the Armenians in Lebanon, because they are associated with first an invasion. I mean Black Irish have a little common similarities with Armenians, in the fact that all Black Irish have Catholic origins even the ones that later converted to Protestantism. However, there is a big difference. The Spanish that come to Ireland merged into the Irish culture, while both the Armenian Christians in Turkey and Lebanon immigrated into the country with there own different culture and kept that culture distinct from the Muslim Religion and Ottoman Empire culture instead of trying to merge them. I forget the exact date from Middle Eastern History class I took but I think the Turkey immigration that would create problems occurred in the stagnation and reform era of Ottoman Empire. Even though immigration really started around 1749 and still the Ottoman Empire's late stagnation period, for the Lebanon immigration you are actually more looking at the era of the French Mandate in Lebanon because of the massive expansion during the time to the numbers it is today.143.215.103.134 (talk) 01:25, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Thus again the Black Irish are not really Armenian Christians —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.215.103.134 (talk) 01:33, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Map: distribution of dark hair in Ireland

The map is not based on the Hooton (Harvard U.) study. It had info from every county in Ireland. What was the source for your map? Iwerddon 69.211.223.228 (talk)

14:29, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Racism is not the topic

Deleted paragraphs on Victorian racism and anti-Irish feeling in Britain. This is not the point or topic of this article.Parkwells (talk) 07:42, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Dupertuis' 1940s 'Physical Anthropology of Ireland'

The article relies on this 70 year old data set to generalise on contemporary characteristics. Surely the information, in so far as it was accurate then, is now completely unreliable when speaking of contemporary populations, making no allowance for migration patterns and other demographic determinants since then. In the preface to the publication (vii) in 1955, Earnest Hooton, in deflecting criticism even before publication, makes the point "one does not come back to something written a decade previously and find it satisfactory". RashersTierney (talk) 10:13, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Original research and Synthesis

Many of the observations in this article reference to primary sources and appear to make conclusions not directly attributed to reliable secondary and tertiary sources. See WP:PST RashersTierney (talk) 10:38, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

This is a terrible, misleading, ignorant article

I am Irish, from Ireland, not an Irish American. The two are very different and a great many Irish Americans are ignorant of Irish reality and rely on hopeless stereotypes and misinformation to imagine "the old country", which is actually very young and modern. The term black Irish is quite foreign to many actual Irish people who will offer a whole range of possible interpretations based on guesswork, arising ultimately from a lack of familiarity with the term, because we hardly ever use it. The Oxford English Dictionary defines black Irish (lower case b) as "Irish of Mediterranean appearance". That's it. It doesn't need a long article written by someone or some people who want to project a lot of stereotypes and race theories onto a simple definition. It's just a dark skinned or dark haired Irish person. (Dark hair is the norm in Ireland, but dark skin is unusual.) The article says, "The term 'Black Irish' is ambiguous among non-Irish people but is used frequently in everyday conversation among the Irish". The first half of the sentence is a wild, unsupported generality, and the end of the sentence is untrue: the term is not a part of everyday Irish conversation; it is a term used mostly by non-Irish observers. The whole article is full of such exasperating bollocks. --O'Dea (talk) 07:08, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

"US-centric"

I see nothing in the article which warrants the 'US-centric' banner at the top, the article mainly discusses the possible genetic links between Spain and Ireland, with a small section on the use of 'Black Irish' in the American south, in an appropraitely marked section. As such, I am removing the banner. - 188.141.61.64 (talk) 02:37, 4 April 2011 (UTC)