Talk:Bulgars

First of all, it is wrong to call the Bulgars "Turkic".In 354 AD the Romans already knew about bulgar's existence and location(north of Caucasus).At that point the Turks didn't exist-there was no such thing.There is no logic in describing a people with Europeid features(proved by anthropolgy and archeology who has strong Hunnic influence as a Turkic tribe. Nobody says that Australians are Americans because they are using the english language. And please stop trying to convince everybofy that the name bulgars(not BulgHars) means "mixed', 'slave", "trash" etc.The speculation on 'bulgha' is an another example of a scientific pearl and you go a step further, proclaiming a negative meaning for a self-ethnonym. The root of the word is Bulg-ar, not Bulga-r! Simple grammar that we all study in 1st grade, but it seems that some people don't have even this primary education. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.252.50.216 (talk) 11:36, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

did you know?

that in many countries, (specially with muslim people) evolution theory is rejected by many scholars (professors etc). But in wikipedia, we don't care about that. What we care is the truth by a scholar with objectivity. I have never heard anyone saying bulgars are slavic etc. I mean in this page some say that turkic origin theory is the leading one but I totaly disagree, It's the only one with objectivity. I'm not gonna change the page but somebody should explain the other objective theories. --78.165.3.121 (talk) 21:43, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Bulgars were definately Iranian peoples. The team of six scientists led by anthropology professor Alexander Iliev presented Wednesday their findings after touring Iran for 20 days, traveling 1100 km inside the country.

“We have found impressive evidence about the Iranian origin of the ancient Bulgarians,” Iliev stated.

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=117903

I see a lot of Turks and FYROM'ians are eager to push the Turkic theory of Bulgar people which is untrue and not objective at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.28.175.98 (talk) 10:19, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Origin & "Migration to Europe'

THis article is one of the worst Wikipedia articles. It starts the history of Bulgars in the 200s. No historical source clearly identifies the Bulgars, and an extremely dubious connection is made with the Bulesi. This need to be corrected

The first clear reference to Bulgars is in 480 by Caucasian writer referring to a probable retrospective account of a Bulgar invasion to Caucasia. But this need to be contextualized and highlighted that such a source - written 3 centuries or so later- is hardly "A grade" material.

Furthermore, the term Bulgar was used to a variety of different nomadic war clans in 5th and 6th century Ponto-Caspian - Danubian region, not to some unified ethnos.

Finally, an idea of a migration from MOngolia is just rubbish. There is no way these people came all the from Mongolia in one trot and maintained a distinct identity. There is no serious scholar who would maintain such a rediculous theory. Rather, the Bulgars formed in Black Sea region - exactly where they are first attested (not to deny that some movement of peoples did not occur, but certainly no 'national' migration from Mongolia to Black Sea.

And I see that there is still pointless squabble about whether they were "Turkic" or "Iranic" or "Turanid", etc, etc. Stupid nationalism. They were neither. Turkic is a linguistic category made up by modern linguists - it does not describe the Bulgars customs, social structure, or even language necessarily. There wass no common Turkic culture - so each factore has to be examined seperately, and people must refrain from trying to slap on over-generalizing ethnic labels like Turkic or Iranic- because this does not even begin to capture what the Bulgars were really about.

Time permitting, I;d be happy to improve the sorry current state of this article Hxseek (talk) 23:43, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Turkic and Iranian are objective categories. Of course they have little to nothing to do with culture, but if the Bulgars spoke a Turkic language, then they were Turkic language speakers. That's all the word means. And if they spoke a mix of languages, or shifted languages over time, we can say that too.

As for the idea that they migrated from Mongolia being rubbish, since we never say that they migrated from Mongolia, I don't see how it's relevant.

Any improvements you can make, esp. in reliable sourcing, would be most welcome. — kwami (talk) 00:04, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I might have understood Central Asia as Mogloia, roughly. So what do we mean central Asia ? They only feature around Black Sea region and Caucasus. I wouldn't call that central Asia.

Indeed, I do not doubt Iranic or Turkic language classifications, but this hould be specifically mentioned with regard to linguistic discusion, not a general, overriding ethnic or ideological equivalent Hxseek (talk) 03:30, 17 October 2010 (UTC) Hxseek (talk) 03:25, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Unless there was language shift, the fact that they spoke Turkic would indicate that at least some of their ancestors came from Central Asia, if not specifically Mongolia. And if there was language shift, then their cultural ancestors came from Central Asia, since their ancestors assimilated to a Turkic language. Often we have little to go on besides language, which is why people are often classified by the languages they speak--unless, of course, we have reason to think that would be inaccurate. — kwami (talk) 05:53, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, that's wrong. There already were Oghuric-Turkic speaking groups in Black Sea region in 5th and 6th century. So there is no reason, nor any actual evidence that the Bulgars "came from" anywhere ! Culturally, if we look at burial, pottery, artefacts - little or nothing speaks of any connection with central Asia, apart from a genreal nomadic lifestyle which was common through all Eurasian steppe. Language spread is the final result of many different procceses - not due to a single movement of Bulgars from Central Asia. If Turkic really did come from Central Asia - this does not mean that the Bulgars did. The Bulgars formed , ie appear in the late 5th century. They were a socio-political group. They formed, or were described/discovered, in the Black Sea/ Caucus region. Not in central Asia. I speak English, but I certainly do not come from England Hxseek (talk) 10:40, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

You say "that's wrong", then proceed to talk about other things that don't address why what I said was wrong.

As for "if the Turkic [peoples] really did come from Central Asia", last I heard the Turkic languages had been traced back to western Mongolia. — kwami (talk) 10:53, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately, you don't seem to be grasping my point. Sorry if it is a bit advanced. . I have addressed your question rather clearly, in fact. I think the discrepency lies in your trivial understanding of what a 'people' or 'tribe' actually means, historically speaking.

Similarly with language. It is clear that most scholars place Turkic to have 'arisen' in the Altai region, but did Bulgar-Turkic really 'originate' there ? How do you know for sure ? And, as I'm trying to say, where a language originates and where a confederacy of people, or where an ethonym is adopted to refer to a variety of different peoples, ie Bulgars, originated, are entirely different matters.

Please provide one shred of conclusive evidence that the Bulgars formed in 2nd century central Asia and then migrated to Black Sea. . . I wont be holding my breath

Hxseek (talk) 21:42, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

I never said they did. Sorry, but you don't seem to be understanding my points.

Languages don't emerge overnight. They evolve gradually, apart from creoles and conlangs and a few other exceptions. People also do not arise by spontaneous generation, they have ancestors. Cultures likewise do not arise independently of each other. The Bulgars could have formed as a distinct people on the shores of the Black Sea and yet still have ancestry, either bloodline or cultural, with Central Asia. I don't see what your point is, since AFAICT no-one is making the claims you're objecting to. — kwami (talk) 23:17, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Ofcourse people have 'blood ancestors'. But that's not what determines ethnogenesis. It is political, social and cultural circumstances. The Bulgars were, in essence, a political-military group. Not a "Nation". They formed in the south Volga-Caucusus area. Your references to "blood-line" descent is an outdated mode of thinking. Unfortunately, it is still prevelant in eastern Europe and Asian scholarhsip. In any case, a central Asian origin is not supported by neither physcial type, nor genetics antrhopology. All people have ancestors- yes, they do not emerge from the ground ! Same with language - it developes, spreads, contracts, etc. But tribal groups - the people named by sources- can, and have, emerged overnight ! That's the difference and that's what you are failing to understand. Speaking of genetics, recent research (a team of scientists went to Iran and neighboring Iranic areas and gathered DNA from Iranic people -the DNA was very close to modern Bulgarians, and thus the Bulgars. DNA, in essence, proves without argumant that we are then mostly Iranic (the other part being Thracian) and not Turkic or Slavic. You people should take some initiative and do some research once in a while. sources for this are plenty - you have university of michigan, state government of USA, official news websites (which are allowed on wiki, from the rules), official archeaology websites, ancient historians -ALL are either mentioned on the "complaint of racism section" here or on the edits from ate July to early August 2010 - pay attention to the 'new research 2010' section and the language section. The 'new research 2010' section was removed in later edits -you will find it by noticing the comments of the edits from that time41.133.46.200 (talk) 13:41, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Hxseek (talk) 23:48, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Hxseek, can you provide reliable sources about your statements that "the term Bulgar was used to a variety of different nomadic war clans in 5th and 6th century Ponto-Caspian - Danubian region, not to some unified ethnos" and "the Bulgars formed in Black Sea region"? Frankly, I have never heard anything about the second statement and the first statement is just one of the many possible explanations. Moreover, the Turkic-Iranian origin is assessed in Encyclopedia Britannica online (have a look at the link) which, in my opinion, can be cosidered a reliable source. So, accusing editors of "stupid nationalism" because of this is at least inappropriate.Scheludko (talk) 22:22, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

i'm actually compiling literature currently. The problem of such encyclopedias is that theu regurgitate what theory is mostly repeated by most numer of scholars. They do not go into the crux of the issue. I am not saying that labelling somthing Turkic or Iranic is stupid, but the edit wars which had gone on in article like this as to which 'ethnicity' they were is stupid, as based on false logic. Sure, we can say that they spoke Turkic, more correctly Oghuric. But then we must qualify, contextualize, etc. Moreoever, lingusitic assertions are only part of the issue. being a nomadic pastoralist doesn;t make someone automatically Turkic Hxseek (talk) 04:47, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Bulgar origins AND Complaint of racism

There is lots of bias and racism going on in wikipedia topics that deal with Bulgarians. People, especially people in Wikipedia, should understand that not every thing in this world is Turkic and that not every tribe ever from Asia, or Central Asia is Turkic, this has been a particular problem in Wikipedia for quite some time now, where bias seems to rule the land and get the upper hand, usurping other theories (which by the way have lots of evidence and sources, from proper websites and proper research and historians) with force and racism (clearly as many editiors have experienced). This really is irritating a lot of people, and in the purest sense is simply not fair. This frustration is justly founded. It seems that lots of articles that deal with Bulgarian topics (like this for example) are stalked and ruled (very unfairly) by Turks which is just ridiculous, since they are Bulgarian topics not Turkic topics. Lots of people vandalise Bulgarian pages with propaganda (i.e:old theories and information which since has strongly been doubted by a lot of people, and since then new theories have been found with stronger more factual evidence-which in the end is simply ignored just because somewhere down the line it wasnt or something wasnt Turkic). All this is disturbing really and stinks of racism towards Persian and Iranian peoples (which goes against morals and human rights). All of the above is simply a drop of the massive problem that is going on! Basically some editors have presented additional theories (nothing wrong with that) about the origins of the Bulgars. The important thing here is that these edits had, justly, proper verifiable sources from a wide collection of books, websites, and newspapers(which after reading the wikipedia rules, one finds that thay are perfectly acceptable). The biggest shock which is just plain unbelievable is the latest findings of DNA, which prove that the modern day Bulgarians (and thus the Bulgars) have a lot in common with ancient and current Pamirian/Iranian peoples. ALL the discussion should have stopped right there, with no more warring, insults and arguments, as anyone with common sense or in the medical field knows that DNA doesn't lie,ever and it is especially important as the best evidence in court cases, murders and CSI's. Not only is there DNA evidence (which from this point you don't need any other evidence really) but also linguistic evidence (lots of words from Iranian origin in modern Bulgarian language, and also place names, people names etc etc). There's even a replica of the Madara horseman in ancient Persian lands. A reference to a whole nice list has been added to this article which has a whole table showing all the words in alphabetical order with origins in different dielects -but guess what?it has been conveniently removed, because as you might have guessed by now-it wasn't Turkic enough. Yet and additional source has been found, behind an already sufficient collection, stating that the Bulgars originated from Pamirian lands; this source, by the way, is from the History faculty of the University of Michigan. How much more evidence, proof and source do you possibly still need? The problem here is that the article is edited by a lot of people who are not even Bulgarian -I dont think you people have got a right to assert who we are and where we come from. You might then say that we all need neutral editors, but that's where the next problem comes from- most of the editors who are not Bulgarian are Turks (there is a history of great tension and violence between Turks and Bulgarians, so Turkish input on this page should be seen as hugely biased and not neutral at all-it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure this out)who insist that the Bulgarians are Turks also-its as if they want to make us Turks no matter what and against all odds. Why do I say against all odds? Well for one there is DNA evidence, and then you get research by real historians (who are qualified just as much as the historians and researchers who inist on the Turkic theory) saying that the Bulgars were Iranian, and then you also get linguistic and cultural evidence-which is all removed in the blink of an eye!!! Anyone who is reading this-please open your eyes to the massive problem that is going on here and read the previous edits where the iranian theory is mentioned -sometime in early August and before-you will see the comments on the edits-read it all an see the truth. This page is corrupt and usurped. There is so much racism here towards Iranian people and Persians (which goes against human rights)-this is disgusting. All rationality and common sense has been lost and thrown away when dealing this page, the Iranian theory is not given a chance when there is so much evidence by so many researchers( a whole team traveled to Iran for crying out loud-to collect DNA samples), icluding Petar Dobrev and historians from the University of Michigan http://sitemaker.umich.edu/mladjov/files/bulgarian_rulers.pdf. There is a lot of linguistic, cultural and DNA evidence-WHY IS IT ALL BEING IGNORED, WHY ARE THERE WARNINGS AND BANS TO THOSE THAT TRY TO CHANGE THIS????!!!!This is hugely unfair!Why in the world is the Iranian theory seen as so bad-when there is overwhelming evidence? By the way someone has said, on the comments of the edits, that DNA is not irrefutable and implying that it just might as well be useless. All this has to change Whoever is reading this and agrees even slightly or is interested in seeing what all the evidence is and what all the fuss is about, please read the previous edits from ABOUT LATE JULY TO EARLY AUGUST-read the whole article but pay special attention to the "new research 2010" part. One more source which should have been added but hasn't ( a new one):http://sitemaker.umich.edu/mladjov/files/bulgarian_rulers.pdf

ALL THIS above is just a drop of the problem, I left out a lot of detail of the problem and many more good arguments out,as I don't have time now —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.116.121 (talk) 13:06, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

This article is not about the Slavic Bulgarians, but about completely different people - the Turkic Bulgars. Jingby (talk) 13:19, 21 November 2010 (UTC) Oh my, if you read anthing in the past edits, you would have seen that, from the "new research 2010" part that today's modern day Bulgarians have a lot in common with Pamirian people, DNA wise, so that means that we are then descended from the Bulgars. And what do you mean Slavic Bulgarians -they are not Slavic, they don't look Slavic (even says in Wikipedia they look different from other Slavs) and the new DNA evidence shows that we have mostly Pamirian not Slavic genes —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.116.121 (talk) 13:06, 21 November 2010 (UTC) And what is wrong with the Bulgars being Iranic, why must they be Turkic and absolutely nothing else,is it shameful to be Iranic or something? In wikipedia at least, there is a monopoly over their ethnicity, how dare someone who isn't ethnic Bulgarian say what our ancestors were, and on top of that purposefully ignore lots of sources and evidence. Why must they be Turkic, is there a rule that they must be only Turkic, is there a rule to ignore new and old evidence and sources stating otherwise, and warning and banning those that decide to do something about this unfairness. For the record the new research 2010 part in previous edits shows that according to new DNA data, the modern day Bulgarians have mostly Iranic DNA(from Pamir), no wonder we don't look Slavic, most of us. This shows then that the greater part of us are descended from the Bulgars and the other part being Thracian, and only probably 1 percent Slavic. If the Bulgars were Turkic, then currently we would have had mostly Turkic DNA not Iranic (Pamir). EVERYONE, IF YOU WANT A SAMPLE OF THE REAL TRUTH, read this:http://samoistina.at.ua/2/similarities.htm, it has scholarly sources! Also read the sources from the previous edits, from late July to early August. They are proper sources, verifiable sources. When these were presented, the biased people had nothing to say so they responded to say that these sources weren't valid, but according to wikipedia's rules they are valid41.132.116.121 (talk) 21:21, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Here is not a phantasy forum. End of my comments. Regards. Jingby (talk) 04:45, 22 November 2010 (UTC) Typical, again someone doesn't know how to respond because they logically know I am right, they don't have a proper arugementatice comeback, they don't have a justified comeback with any weight, they just plainly don't know how to respond to all the overwhelming evidence and sources that just simply throw the Turkic theory out the water. With comebacks like these, and I have seen a lot of them, this issue will never get solved, and the monopoly of the Bulgars and Bulgarian's ethnicity will continue with utmost unfairness. This is totally messes up, this is a prime example of how corrupt wikipedia is. You wikipedias spend so much time editing wikiepedia, thinking you are contributing even more to this "prestigious, great and academic world wide information and education project that is wikipedia", feeling good and great, with honour that you are doing a fine job to contribute to education to thousands, to add to the most valuable thing ever-knowledge; you people even create good looking and impressive personal user pages and show off all the hard work that you have done, wanting, if there is anything to want, respect - BUT ALL THIS IS AN ILLUSION, USELLESS AND YOU ARE FOOLING YOURSELVES BY WRITING HISTORY THE WAY YOU WANT IT TO BE, BY IGNORING EXTREMELY VALUABLE INFORMATION, SOURCES AND EVIDENCE, GOING SO FAR AS TO EVEN IGNORE DNA EVIDENCE. WE ARE MEANT TO PUT TRUTH AND PRESTIGE TO THIS ENCYCLOPEDIA, TO EDUCATE AND NOT LIE TO PEOPLE, INSTEAD THE OPPOSITE IS HAPPENING. When people said at university not to usetrust wikipedia too much and to maybe rather use other sources, I used to think that that is a wrong, unjustified statement, thinking that of course wikipedia is a good and trustworthy source of info, but now I see what is happening really, how low wikipedia has fallen.41.133.47.98 (talk) 19:49, 22 November 2010 (UTC) AND HERE IS ONE MORE OFFICIAL SOURCE,(CANT GET MORE OFFICIAL THEN THIS!!!) in addition to the already many sources mentioned in the article ('new research 2010 and language part') around late July to ealry August 2010, you will notice it from the comments of the edits around that time SAYING(WITH ALL FAIRNESS TO THE OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE RECENTLY AND FROM YEARS PASSED) THAT THE BULGARS CAME FROM THE KINGDOM OF BALHARA http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3236.htm (as some historians point out, but of course the historians were not Turks or Turkic, so you will ignore and ridicule them, but that goes without saying). With all due fairness, and with all logic - proper sources from governments and universities (which now are starting to number as much or MORE THAN THE SOURCES THAT SAY THE BULGARS ARE TURKIC) should have higher priorities than the opinion and POV's of the administrators and editors who abuse this page with their nonsense(i.e: governemt and university sources are much, much better than the opinions of the editors that say we didn't come from Balhara and/or that we are Turks/Turkic and not Iranic). You people must know that in the end the right always wins over the wrong, truth always triumphs, your(your=every editor who supports the Turkic "theory" by ignoring or deleting sources and evidence showing otherwise) siege WILL be lifted from this page eventually, this propanda must eventually come to an end and please, I BEG YOU, dont send me links to wikipedia rules that you people twist so much for your agenda and Turkish POV, that in the end they are not even recognizable anymore. EVERYONE MUST COME HERE TO THIS DISCUSSION AND SOLVE THIS CRISIS ONCE AND FOREVER ALL. EVERYONE - JUST KNOW THAT WHOEVER DARES CHANGE SOMETHING AND TRIES TO KEEP IT ON THE PAGE(SAYING IRANIC AND NOT TURKIC) - YOU WILL MOST DEFINITELY GET BANNED - THIS IS PROOF OF THE UNFAIRNESS AND POV (yes it is POV once you start to ignore and delete sources and overwhelming evidence that dismiss the Turkic view, failing TO EVEN AT LEAST MENTION ON THE PAGE, LIKE IT RIGHTFULLY DESERVES)41.133.46.200 (talk) 13:25, 26 November 2010 (UTC) |} How about you people take a look at this, especially Finn Diesel and all the editors in vigorous support of the Turkic theory : Bold textEditing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view. NPOV is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia and of other Wikimedia projects. This is non-negotiable and expected of all articles and all editors. This is from Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view. If the rules are functional then why doesnt the article represent all significant views that have been published by reliable sources (such as for example, there are many more examples, such as university, historians and proper news websites, and the state governemt website of USA) It also says the articles must be made without bias - the complete opposite of what is happening here, as this article is made with lots of bias and not "all significant views that have been published by reliable sources" get put on the article. In reality what is really hapening is that all the research, evidence and reliable sources (all of which has grown to the same size or possibly greater than the Turkic theory and its sources) just gets deleted removed from the article and completely ignored, and the funny thing is that nobody is doing something about it, and if they try, the 'editors' throw and twist the wikipedia rules to crush them, or simply just ban them. "NPOV is a fundemental principle of Wikipedia" - well then why do you people ignore this and push your Turkic POV and ignore and delete all other views (the Iranian theory, after so much sources and evidence, has become a pretty big, important and significant view, the Turkic theory is out dated). How can you people continue to recieve various praise and awards on your user pages and how can you be so proud of them, thinking you have contributes to the greater good, the greater knowledge, thinking that ultimately you are helpping people with knowledge when all that you are doing is being highly disruptive and ignoring rules(by deleting evidence and sources and by not giving it a chance to be properly mention, if at all, on the page) and actually hiding information (which is competitive to the Turkic theory) from millions of people who have a basic right to read all views and all evidence, I mean all, everything, before making up their own mind. How can you people take that chance away from millions of people and then be proud of your work? Excuse me if this has gotten sort of long, but this issue is just to big and critically important to ignore41.132.178.10 (talk) 16:52, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Christ almighty, what a wall of text. How do you expect someone to sift through all of that and address your complaints? And could you post a link to that "study" that you claim proves there's a genetic link between Bulgarians and Iranians/Pamiris? AlecTrevelyan402(Click Here to leave a message) —Preceding undated comment added 17:04, 27 November 2010 (UTC). I do expect actually - lots of facts need to be mentioned, so there is lots to be said - it is a very important issue so if anyone expects this to get solved once and for all they must read every single thing. First, before the links, have you read the "new research 2010" section in past edits? Also read the etymology: Different theories exist for the etymology of Bulgar. In Sanskrit, Bal means "strength" and hara means "the possessor"; in some sources, the name Balhara and Bulgar/Bulgaria is one and the same. Then I expect you have read the language part as well. Now for the links:

http://sitemaker.umich.edu/mladjov/files/bulgarian_rulers.pdf - from the university of Michigan, says that the Bulgars came from Pamir, which was an Iranic/Persian land

http://samoistina.at.ua/2/similarities.htm - really summarised, there is more which is not mentioned,not really an official website itself, but the sources are really good

http://dnes.dir.bg/news.php?id=6541326&fp=1 http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=117006 - novinite is an official news website, a very big one. People have complained that newspapers are no good, but according to wikipedia they are perfectly acceptable. http://sofiamorningnews.net/ - also an official news website http://thearchaeologicalbox.com/en/news/dna-analysis-reveals-pamir-origin-bulgarians - archaeology website http://groznijat.tripod.com/b_lang/bl_a_v.html - very important summary of the Iranic words which were in the Bulgar language and are now in the modern language. Additionaly many names in Bulgaria - place names (the name Balkan is found in Persian lands at present) and peoples names - Asparuh is a full Iranian name - meaning something like horserider. There is also an exact replica of the Madara horseman in Iranic lands as well, but the link I have long since lost, will look for it. A=Other cultural aspects like the one festival in Bulgaria (where people dress with long pointed white and black masks and dance around a fire - not familiar with it that much, so dont know the name, but it exists) - it is said that comes from Zoroastrian roots. Also it has been said that some of the structures in Pliska resemble religious Zoroastrian centres - it was in the past edits of wikipedia - go look for it. http://www.csc.kth.se/~dilian/Papers/bulgars.pdf - this is a source that someone else put up. In it, it clearly states that the Iranic theory is part of the 3 major theories (it says Sarmatian - but they were Iranic). Earlier I mentioned, above, that according to neutrality rules in wikipedia, all major view should be added. So far that hasn't happened, as there has been extreme prejudice against the Iranic theory, so it goes against the rules. http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/8511032 - an academic website that mentions the Bulgars could have come from Pamir/Hindukush - Iranic lands, apperently where the kingdom of Balhara was situated (Balhara is very close to Bulgar, I think Bulhi is the Armenian word for Bulgar, and historians from the past have mentioned this as well - "Ashharatsuyts" by Anania Shirakatsi in the 7th century AD , Khorenatsi, Moses. History of the Armenians. Translation and Commentary of the Literary Sources by Robert W. Thomson. Cambridge, Massachusetts: Harvard University Press, 1978. 400 pp. ISBN 9780674395718, Agathias of Myrina, Theophylact Simocatta, and Michael the Syrian also identify Mount Imeon (Pamir/Hindukush - Balhara was there) as the homeland of the Bulgars. Mount Imeon is even honoured in the South Shetland Islands where there are a lot of Blgarian scientist, by naming a mountain range after it. This shows a Bulgarian connection. Lots of places there are named after Bulgarian themes/Topics. http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/connections/Vedic-Bulgaria.php - not really offcicial but it carries the point across. What is official though that it is written by Petar Dobrev, a long time advcocate/historian/researcher of the Iranic theory. http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=117903 - another version http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=117192the third version - one or two things are different I think http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/common_origin_croats_serbs_jats.php - in it it says "It may also be stated that several scholars have noticed Iranic elements amongst the Proto-Bulgarians. (Beshevliev 1967, Schmitt 1985)" http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3236.htm - from an official state government website of the USA

Here is one more source: Dobrev, Petar. Unknown Ancient Bulgaria. Sofia: Ivan Vazov Publishers, 2001. 158 pp. (in Bulgarian) ISBN 9546041211 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.232.75.208 (talk) 11:46, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Here is another source: "[1]". Brockhaus Conversations-Lexikon Bd. 7. Amsterdam 1809, S. 161-162. [2]". Pierer's Universal-Lexikon, Band 2. Altenburg 1857, S. 230.

There are more links which I am busy looking for at the moment(saved somewhere, when I find them, I will post them) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.178.10 (talk) 20:17, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I have always supported the idea of adding "Iranian origin theory" section because such a theory exist and it has its supporters among historians. Moreover, the source from University of Michigan states that after the dissolution of Hunnic confederacy turkic and hunnic tribes were incorporated into the Bulgar ethnos. That perfectly matches with the "ethnogenesis approach" of other editiors such as Hxseek who states that Bulgars were a mixture of Turkic, Iranic and other tribes.Scheludko (talk) 06:37, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Origins of the Bulgars

OK! I don't claim that Bulgarians are Turks. Bulgarians may be 100% Slavic. BUT;

• Bulgars are Turkic. BulgarIANs are Slavic (See Géza Féher's works)
• Bulgarians may not be descended from Bulgars.
• If descended, they are not Turkic anymore because Bulgars were dissolved amongst Slavic people. (they were outnumbered)

Case closed. My Bulgarian friends, don't be racist. You may not like us but you can't change the truth. Every book on Bulgars I've read proves that they are Turkic. Bulgarians are still Slavic.(Greetings from the Komshu, have a nice day.)F.Mehmet (talk) 11:00, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

I appreciate your moderate tone, my Turkish friend ... but:

Every book on Bulgars I've read proves that they are Turkic. Please consider extending your selection of books by including, e.g., the books refered to in the previous topic. Then you'll see that the truth has many aspects. A racist attitude is to select one origin, and exclude all the others in spite of the numerous facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.87.254.60 (talk) 14:48, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply, my friend. I am planning to read more books on Bulgars. But for now, I can say that all books I read on Bulgars are neutral enough.

I read Hungarian Turkolog Géza Féher's "Fehér Géza: A bolgár-törökök szerepe és műveltsége" (It's in Hungarian language but I read its translation.) and books of a British historian called John Haldon who is a Byzantinist.

A sentence from J.Haldon's "The Palgrave Atlas of Byzantine History"

"The Kutrigurs and Utrigurs joined forces to establish an independent khanate between the lower reaches of the Dniepr and the Don, under the new name of 'Bulgars'"

Another sentence from the same book

"... In 679 the situation was transformed by the arrival of the Turkic Bulgars, a nomadic confederation made up of the Kutrigur and Utigur Huns....(sentence continues)"

These are the main sources I use. I do think that they are neutral enough. Of course, Bulgars are Turkic, this does not change anything. Today, modern Bulgarians are a new and different nation who are definitely Slavic. Greetings. F.Mehmet (talk) 20:58, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Dear F., perhaps you might be interested in perusing this very brief overview of Bulgarian history. Apcbg (talk) 08:04, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

The Question is itself redundant. TURKIC is a 20th century scholarly construct. It is one thing to argue ( justifiably) that the Bulgars spoke Turkic, at least for administrative and ceremonial purposes. But if we want to stick to the provable facts, all that we can say is that they were various groups of militaristic steppe nomads. Turkic spread as a new lingua franca in the steppe, supplanting Iranic. Hoe ever, the only people called "Turks" in that tine were the GokTurks.nThe Bulgars were "Bulgars". Slovenski Volk (talk) 07:59, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Furthermore – and leaving aside their pre-European history – the Bulgars had been present in Europe for centuries by the time “Turkic spread as a new lingua franca in the steppe, supplanting Iranic.” Indeed, they were occupying the North Caucasus with some of them moving southwards to settle in Old Armenia (Principality of Vanand), according to early medieval Armenian sources. Apcbg (talk) 09:41, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

They mooved together with Huns or Avars, i.e. another people, which used as lingua franca Turkic languages. In this article is mentioned, that Bulgars were predominantly Europeid, but at least their elite spoke Turkic. Look at today Turkey, the case is the same. Predominantly Europeid people, which adopted Turkic in the Ottoman Empire as lingua franca and choose Turkish ethnicity in the Republic of Turkey. 90% from the Turks today consist from turkicized Balkanians, Anatolians and Middle Easterns. The rest, i.e. 10% are descendants of real Central Asiatic nomads.Jingby (talk) 09:55, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

They moved many a time in their long history, and their involvement with the Huns and the Avars was related to some of their penultimate movements. However, the point is they had been settled and established in Europe well before the Huns or the Avars came. Apcbg (talk) 10:15, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

4th century AD is not such a point. 10:40, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Sure. Apcbg (talk) 11:08, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

They, or at least the name "Bulgar" is first attested in the 4th century, by Armenian chroniclers. Anything further than this is speculation, no matter how good a scholar one is. you cannot trace any history back on supposed name similarities, or burial styles. This is extremely tenuous.

Moreover, the link with the Huns is false. No Bulgar groups are named by contemporary sources as being part of the Hun pax. They name Sciri, Goths, Gepids, Akitziri, etc, but not Bulgars. The confusion stems from the history of the Lombards author who stated that the "Bulgares" attacked the lombards in the 4th cenutry. The book was written in the 7th century, and erroneously attributed a Hun raid to the Bulgars, because in the 7th century the Bulgars were around, and the Huns were gone.

When the Bulgars really start appearing in Europe, and "history", is the 5th century. There were many , different "Bulgar" groups. it was a generic ethonym used to refer to horse riders from Pontic steppe. More specific organization were called Kotrags, utigurs, etc. However, the generic name sometimes stuck as a propper designation - as in the case of Kubrat's group and those in Volga region

Linguistically, Turkic, or rather Oghuric appears first in the 6th century. We still do not know what language the Huns spoke originally, if there evn was such thing as "Hunnic". Gothic was the idiom of their empire Slovenski Volk (talk) 12:26, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

The early Armenian sources reported no contemporary events but still earlier developments but I would rather not go into further discussion on that. Nevertheless, I notice that according to your timeline the Bulgars were in Europe a century before the Turkic did. Apcbg (talk) 14:08, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Whoever the "Bulgars" mentioned by early Armenians sources were - we don;t know what langauge they spoke, except for the fact that Iranic dialects were widespread in the area as a whole. The Danubian Bulgars of Asparuch, and his father Kubrat in the Don, might not at all be (directly) related to those original ones in northern Caucasia. Rather, the name continued to be used to designate groups in the region; a name adopted by Byzantine and Latin historians from the ARmenians, probably. By theN, ie the 6th century, Oghuric had made its way into west Eurasia. The Bulgars were not a "nation" - ie a coherent people, but an alliance of fighters, so could have been diverse backgrounds. It is probable that Turkic was spoken amongst their elite - seen by Turkic inscriptions etc, (But the presence of runes doesn't prove that it was spoekn widely) The spread of Oghuric/ Turkic was a linguistic phenomenon - ie a "langauge spread". What caused the expansion of Turkic so far west ? Many argue the Huns - but no one knows for sure that they actually spoke Turkic. Interestingly, Bulgars, Avars, Khazars all spoke Oghuric, rather than Turkic propper. This Oghuric has a lot of Finno-Ugric elements in it- hardly suprising given that the Magyrs were Ugric speaking and were undoubtedly part of this cultural millieu. Slovenski Volk (talk) 17:34, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Friend Slovenski Volk, you are mistaken on Oghuric. Despite it has Finno-Ugric elements, Oghuric is a branch of the Turkic languages. It's called "LIR Turkic"(By the way, Turkish is SH-A-Z Turkic, that is to say, all sh, aah and z sounds are L, ee (i) and r in lir Turkic. The reason is that, in oldest (common) Turkic this L sound was LÇ (lch), for example "alç" (alch) 'food' became aş (ahsh) in modern Turkic, but "al" in Bulgar Turkic and then uhl and ıl (yl) (dotless i is nearly the same as ы in Russian)). And Bulgar Turkic language was common amongst Volga Bulgar people; gravestones were all in Turkic. I hope this information is good. Thanks and Greetings.F.Mehmet (talk) 15:55, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

I never said that Oghuric was Finno-Ugric, but that it has a lot of F-U influence compared to Turkic propper. Now, the link between Oghuric and common Turkic is undeniable. However, scholars still argue about the exact relationship - ie are they two branches of one family, or distinct languages with similarity due to areal contact. Perhaps , the former is more favoured, but tbh, i have not researched the subject matter extensively yet. Slovenski Volk (talk) 21:09, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

About the Inro an any other info regarding the origins of Bulgars/Bulgarians and some EDITORS-IN-CHEIF

95.42.33.131 (talk) 13:11, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

  As you may know or as you might not know, in Bulgaria either in the past or in modern times, only one word is used for these two known to you terms - Българи [bʼəlgari], meaning whatever you choose as a translation :o) - "Bulgarians" or "Bulgars". Meanwhile in THE NEAR PAST (pro-russian and pro-sovietic times, mainly in the 20th cent.) the term proto-bulgarians (or prabulgari) was "invented" and is still in wide use to distinguish the modern Bulgarians from the distant past Bulgarians, thought (and taught in schools) to have come from somewhere not exactly defined and mixed with slavic and remnant thracian tribes in The Balkan Peninsula. But this is not the problem here...

  The reason for me to write this is the unexplained and very nimble MASS deleting, editing, reverting of ANY ATTEMPT to clarify things or to show them from a more flexible and wide point of view, regarding many new studies, here in Shtriki-shtraki-Wiki-pedia, particularly about the origin(s) of Bulgarians (I'll use only one of the terms as it is in THE Bulgarian language) in any related article. To be more accurate what I'm writing about - this prowl and my worries are not only on the mentioned subject/topic. 

  The last tendentious UNDO (05:04, 10 June 2011 - "(Removed misleading info.)" Wow, how frightening!!!) was made by an "editor", called JINGIBI - probably Bulgarian (as his words/slogan say), but most likely he's Greek, pro-greek or something else (as his works/edits show), which is not the important part as well and he is free to be whatever he wants to be :) The important part is that he feels himself as some kind of EDITOR-IN-CHEIF, as some others also do - he's not the only one of course.

  I wonder who is misleading who?!?! Look at what kind of info he regularly reverts and how he explains it in the Bulgar-related and Middle ages Bulgaria articles and tell me what do you think. 

And please tell your opinions on the text of the Intro of this article.

  The other reason to write this is that I wonder whether to make an account here and try to do anything helpful (though humble) at all if the situation is like what I see in the past few weeks. This place is more and more starting to look like a sect. Exqueeze me for the word and the influent English.