Talk:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

A tagalog translation of the Page.

I would like to know if the author of this page would be interested in a Tagalog translation of this page for the benefit of Tagalog speakers. If so, how would one do this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.123.156.66 (talk) 19:33, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

You can upload it to The Tagalog Wikipedia! I dont think It has a Later Day Saints article yet. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 19:41, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Disambig nav aid at top of article

Per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC / wp:DISAMBIGUATION, this article is a "primary topic" for Latter Day Saint-named denominations--in which cases a disambig tag is to be placed on the top of this page as a navigation aid for readers looking for other uses of Latter Day Saint, the best listing for which is to be found at List of sects in the Latter Day Saint movement, which includes the Church of Christ (Latter Day Saints), the RLDS, and so forth. Please reference approproiate guidelines before re-deleting to avoid editing according to merely wp:DONTLIKEIT.--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 15:11, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

I read the guidelines, but I must have missed the part that says that you have to have a disambiguation at the top of the primary topic. I deleted the last one because it was more confusing than enlightening, and if it's going to confuse people before they even start reading the article, something needs to be changed. This version may be slightly better, but the stuff about the upper-case "D" has got to go. I'm not saying it's not important - it is. It just doesn't belong in the lede. Or before the lede in this case. Adjwilley (talk) 17:09, 1 June 2011 (UTC)Adjwilley

A better solution might be to put the list of other sects in the See also section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adjwilley (talk • contribs) 17:46, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

It appears to have been added in 2006, here. And here is a talkpage discussion.--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 20:00, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Joseph Smith founded a movement?

The lead states the Church is "...the largest denomination originating from the Latter Day Saint movement founded by Joseph Smith, Jr. in Upstate New York in 1830". This seems misleading as it implies that Joseph Smith founded a movement. In fact he founded (formed) a Church called "The Church of Christ." Perhaps a movement followed the Church, but written this way the article is either inaccurate or misleading.

Could we not write that the Church is "...the largest denomination originating from the Church of Christ which was founded by Joseph Smith, Jr. in Upstate New York in 1830"?

--Canadiandy talk 05:36, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, found another one. Later on it reads, "Like the other churches of the Latter Day Saint movement,...". This seems unnecessary to point out as the Church is already linked to that movement in the preceding paragraph, and their restorationist beliefs are not causally connected to the other churches of the "Latter Day Saint movement". I see no key reason to leave the statement in. Please review my edit and let me know if there are concerns.--Canadiandy talk 05:44, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

"the Church of Christ which was founded by Joseph Smith" is misleading because of several things. It is not the only church called "Church of Christ" and it does not adaquately convey the unique beliefs that are brought out in LDS/Mormonism. What is wrong with the word "movement"? -- Avanu (talk) 05:48, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Avanu. I respect your position that the name 'Church of Christ' might be problematic because there are other churches of the same name. The common sense solution seems to be to add a simple qualifier (i.e. a disambiguation link or the simple phrase "...named "The Church of Christ" in its early years"). My problem with the term 'movement' is that one is not founded. A movement follows something and suggests populist origins whereas 'organizing' (apologist) or 'creating' (polemic) or 'forming' (more neutral) a church suggests at least leadership by the founder. It would be POV to suggest that Joseph Smith formed a Church based on a populist demand. There are more than sufficient sources to identify that he organized/formed/created a church. --Canadiandy talk 04:17, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I am seeing no argument here. May i call the question as to whether we can write "...the largest denomination originating from "The Church of Christ" as founded by Joseph Smith, Jr. in Upstate New York in 1830." The careful placement of the words 'as founded' should address the concern that not all Churches of Christ were founded by Joseph Smith. However, if any would like to add the disambiguation links (not my expertise) I would be just fine with that too.--Canadiandy talk 01:07, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

One other thought. Could it not be written "...originating from "The Church of Christ"(later, 1838, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints") as founded by Joseph Smith, Jr. in Upstate New York in 1830." I had avoided that one at first based on the fact that it might be insensitive to some outside the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Yet I am not aware of any splinter groups (yes the Church could be referred to as a splinter group if one wanted to write such in a neutral way) within the so-called "Latter Day Saint Movement" that left prior to the 1838 revelation. So in essence all would share the history of being referred to at one time as "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". In fact, the absence of the hyphen distinguishes the church then from the church now so that all should be comfortable with this wording.--Canadiandy talk 01:32, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Use of Abbreviated form of the Church

From the Church's style guide (meant for journalists and other media) we read the Church's request that,

"When a shortened reference is needed, the terms "the Church" or "the Church of Jesus Christ" are encouraged."

While members of the Church might respectfully be identified as LDS (Latter-Day Saints) the Church is not, by belief, theirs. This phraseology would then be insensitive. I recognize that there are other entities identified as "The Church of Jesus Christ", but I would propose we use the abbreviated term, "the Church" ('the' not capitalized). I know this is a common descriptor for the Catholic Church, but clearly the specificity of the article's topic should allow us this contextual latitude.

1. Avoids an insensitive and inaccurate title usage. 2. Respects the good faith request and allowance of the Church. 3. Is less wordy.

Thoughts?--Canadiandy talk 05:59, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Its not insensitive, its descriptive. LDS might have a style guide for how *they* prefer to be named or written about, but that doesn't mean that it has the same goals as Wikipedia. Of course in the right context, there is nothing wrong with saying "the church has 12 summer programs" or whatever the case might be. But in a general sense, in order to correctly identify *this* religion, the most proper form is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (lowercase 'D' in 'day') This is a specific denomination/faction within the larger Latter Day Saint movement or belief system, whatever term you like. Any shortening of that name should follow from the goal of making sure readers recognize clearly what entity we are referring to. -- Avanu (talk) 06:14, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

In this particular article "the Church" generally seems appropriate because the article is about a particular church, not the movement. 72Dino (talk) 06:18, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

I would say it would depend on the specific context. I don't see it as insensitive to use a more specific descriptor. -- Avanu (talk) 06:27, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

While in some cases within the article referring simply to "the Church" or "the church" would be ok, this edit by Canadiandy1 is problematic because it eliminates useful and standard encyclopedic content in that the first sentence was changed from "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (abbreviated as the LDS Church..." to this "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (abbreviated as the Church...". Ltwin (talk) 06:33, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Avanu. It's both descriptive and insensitive. When the TLA (Three Letter Acronym) is broken out it reads as 'The Church of Latter-day Saints". It is a key tenet that the followers believe it belongs to Christ and not the members, so such a usage is insensitive. You wouldn't refer to the Jehovah's Witness faith as JW, or the Church of Jesus Christ as the "JCs". The term LDS Church has been attributed by modern media and when a major religion identifies their dissatisfaction with a term in such a respectful manner, I can't see how we would want to do otherwise. If Jewish leadership communicated their offense at being referred to as the "Jews' Church" we would be all over correcting that. How is this different? This may take work, but it should be done.--Canadiandy talk 14:32, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

For better or worse, we (Wikipedia editors) need to be guided by the way The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is commonly referred to in reliable secondary sources. By that standard, I believe we have little or no option but to acknowledge and accept the terms "LDS Church" and "Mormon Church", regardless of whether these labels are preferred or recommended by the church itself, or even whether some segment of the church's membership may object to them. Richwales (talk · contribs) 15:06, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

I have to agree with Richwales. Your belief that your church is of Christ is not changed by what label others give to you. You might go look up the difference in meaning between "of" (ownership) and "of" (composition). It might help ease your mind about what is actually being said when the phrase The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is spoken. -- Avanu (talk) 15:21, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree that removing the LDS's takes away from the clarity of the article. LDS church is a perfectly acceptable name, and calling it "the Church" makes us sound stuffy and arrogant. Like, "yeah, there are other 'churches' out there, but we are "the Church." It's a noble effort, but I don't think this is the place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adjwilley (talk • contribs) 15:24, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

For clarification of my earlier comment, referring to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as "the Church" within this article is appropriate unless it confuses the reader in the particular sentence or paragraph. Reference to an abbreviated name of the subject, such as the Church, in a Wikipedia article is common. However, I do not think the first sentence should include "abbreviated as the Church" because it is not so abbreviated in common usage, just in this article. However, a short paragraph on why the Church prefers that its members use that terminology (takes the focus off of Jesus Christ) may be appropriate (see this talk/sermon/speech by Boyd K. Packer recently.) 72Dino (talk) 15:43, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

From that reference you just posted:

"The use of the revealed name, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (D&C 115:4), is increasingly important in our responsibility to proclaim the name of the Savior throughout all the world. Accordingly, we ask that when we refer to the Church we use its full name wherever possible.

"When referring to Church members, we suggest 'members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.' As a shortened reference, 'Latter-day Saints' is preferred."

So by the logic we're hearing from Canadandy1, its ok to say "I'm a Latter-day Saint", but not "I'm in a church composed of Latter-day Saints"? Like I said a bit earlier, the first "of" and the second "of" aren't the same meaning. Grasp that, and your problems are over. -- Avanu (talk) 15:55, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Just a little irony. . . Today's headline on the front page of BYU's Daily Universe reads, "LDS Church seeks balanced immigration laws." http://newnewsnet.byu.edu/pdf/du20110613.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.187.97.4 (talk) 21:13, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Newspaper headlines are the original Twitter :) in terms of space limits. Space is so tight in a headline that "LDS Church" is probably the shortest and least ambiguous way to identify the church. —C.Fred (talk) 22:30, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

So from what I am reading convenience trumps respect? There is no such church as the 'LDS Church'. Never was. The term is as offensive to some as the term 'Xmas' is to others. In fact at least the term 'Xmas' retains its allusion to Christ (especially from the perspective that the "X" comes from the Greek letter Chi, which is the first letter of the Greek word Χριστός, translated as "Christ"), 'LDS Church' removes it completely. And instead of respecting the good will request of a major organized religion whose people are frequently the victims of bigotry in modern media we are collectively taking the position that because it might be a little difficult, and because it is popularly done (wasn't it popular in 1940s Germany to call the Jewish people some terms that they didn't appreciate either) that we will continue to refer to the name of an organized religion by an acronym which is both inaccurate and offensive?

@Avanu, It is okay to say "I'm a Latter-day Saint." It is also okay to say I am a member of a Church whose membership is composed of Latter-day Saints. But it is not okay to say that the Church is directed (of) by the Latter-day Saints or alternatively to suggest that the Church can be reduced to the sum of who believes in it. Like saying the United States of America is simply the "Land of Americans." Isn't there more to America than just who's in it? I don't believe we take issue with Catholics or Anglicans in their position that God directs and governs their churches through revelation. This would be tantamount to calling them a simple business group which is insensitive to any faith group. I believe the only other acceptable term I have seen apart from those identified by the Church in their style guide is that of 'Church of Jesus Christ (LDS)'. This reduces the wordage as some would prefer, denotes their difference from other "Church[es] of Jesus Christ" and still accepts the reality that its members are referred to as Latter-day Saints. Feel free to use the less favorable terms 'Mormon' or 'LDS' when referring to members, but I will repeat that it is poor form to acronymize the church name of a practicing faith community. What's wrong is wrong, even if everybody is doing it, and what's right is right, even if nobody is doing it. It will take some work, but I think we will all be proud in the end for taking the neutral yet higher road toward courtesy and dignity.--Canadiandy talk 04:01, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I can't believe that we are even having this discussion. My position on the subject is that I profoundly respect the opinion and thoughts of the leadership of the LDS Church and by using an abbreviation would never want to offend anyone. In places where the context allows for the simple use of "the church" or "Church" in the article and no confusion results, I am fine with that usage. However, that being said, there are times when that is not possible, and it is not desirable to write out the entire name of the church all the time. So I think it is perfectly acceptable in those circumstances to use "LDS Church" is not wrong or offensive. It is an abbreviation and to compare it to anti-semitic slurs is disrespectful to Jews who have had to suffer at the hands of anti-semitism. Ltwin (talk) 04:29, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I support everything Ltwin stated in the above paragraph. 72Dino (talk) 05:15, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

This article talk page is not the ideal place to be discussing or arguing this point. I strongly recommend to Canadiandy that he should go read Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Latter Day Saints). If (as I imagine is likely) he disagrees with what is there, he may wish to get involved in the discussion on the associated talk page. I would point out to Canadiandy that the "manual of style" guidelines are the result of a lengthy process of discussion and consensus, so he should not simply jump in and boldly rewrite the MOS material to be more to his liking — that would be an excellent way to get himself blocked (or at least topic-banned) and deprive the rest of us of whatever positive, constructive contributions he might otherwise have been able to make here. Richwales (talk · contribs) 04:52, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

ltwin. Your point is respected. Your commentary on my motive is highly inappropriate. I refer to the Jewish situation because it is something which must never be forgotten and which began with religious disrespect. How dare you accuse me of being disrespectful to Jews. I refer to their history because I believe it is important we never forget it, and that to forget it and not hold things up to that context is insensitive. You agree with this Ltwin, 72dino?? Canadiandy talk 15:06, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I think he simply means that it is not a fair comparison by a matter of scale. When you have respected church members and leaders using these same terms without blinking twice and when the website addresses are 'lds.org' and 'mormon.org', its probably safe enough to admit its not really that big of a deal. After all lots of people call themselves things, but what matters more is what we actually do, don't you think? -- Avanu (talk) 15:28, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

(ec)Yes, I do agree with Ltwin on that issue. I do not think using the term "LDS Church" can in anyway be compared to the suffering of the Jews. I understand your intent that using the Church's preferred wording shows respect, and I support the use of the term "the Church" or even "the Church of Jesus Christ" if the usage is clear in the context in the article (but use LDS Church where needed instead of the longer full name), but I don't think that was a good comparison. 72Dino (talk) 15:33, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm going to keep a cool head here. My reference to 1940s Germany is appropriate because it identifies how religious groups begin to be discriminated against, by subtleties including the way we refer to them by name. I never once suggested the level of persecution is the same between the two faiths. You made that leap, not I. But I do hold that persecution of a religion often begins with disrespect. And I do believe that one of the key ways we show can show respect for those who suffered in the 1940s is by seeing such things never happen again by standing up vigilantly against all forms of religious discrimination. If I made any error it was in assuming in good faith that contributors here would show me good faith. I will withdraw myself from this discussion as an olive branch to the contributors here and because my aim is build a greater respect for all faith groups. I will leave with a courteous scolding that in asking for a little sensitivity be shown the labeling of the name of the church, I was ironically accused of insensitivity towards the Jewish people. An apology would have sufficed. A willingness to recognize the frustrations felt by many Latter-day Saints would have been appreciated. What I received I can only identify as intolerance. Avanu and Ltwin, I hope you will reflect on what happened here and not let history repeat itself. With both disappointment and hope,--Canadiandy talk 00:04, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

My impression is that you're working too hard on finding ways for people to give or receive offense or intolerance, and not hard enough on just accepting that it is a perfectly fine shorthand that many people in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints use daily. Rather than have a little pity party paragraph again, just drop it and realize that our goal here is to fairly cover this topic, not overly worry about unusual requests for sensitivity. Every one of us has acknowledged that the terminology you suggest has a place, but at the same time, we are practical editors and not just editors who *must* follow every whim or preference of the members of this church. Take it easy, and you'll be fine. -- Avanu (talk) 05:34, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your advice, Avanu. I'm sorry I posted my "pity party paragraph again". As you advised, I'll drop it and take it easy. Thanks for the kind suggestions. Enjoy your work here. --Canadiandy talk 14:50, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

My point in saying what you quoted was to make it clear that no one is out to get you. A LOT of the editors who write for the LDS-related articles are members of the church. To take a tone like 'gosh, everyone hates me', especially using the word 'accused' when most of the people who write here are incredibly sympathetic to your position is just taking the focus away from the issue and making it about Canadiandy. I believe that you personally are very involved on this particular topic, that is, you are a Mormon, and a very partisan one from what I can tell. There is nothing at all wrong with that, in fact, it represents a viewpoint that is very helpful for such articles. However, there are also editors who despite attempts to describe Mormonism neutrally, do have a personal position that is in opposition to it. These editors are welcome also. So between all the various types of editors, hopefully we get a fairly impartial article as the end result. Not one that is written like a pro-Mormon article, nor one that bashes and lambasts it too much either. We're going to have debates and heated remarks at times, but hopefully we're all here to contribute to the goal of delivering general human knowledge impartially. -- Avanu (talk) 15:39, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I'm also sorry for figuring everyone is out to get me, taking a 'gosh everyone hates me' tone, and becoming personally involved in this topic because I'm Mormon. Thanks for pointing that out. I'll make sure I don't make those mistakes again. Thanks for the help.--Canadiandy talk 01:24, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Really? I'm just done with this. Its like you can't see what you're doing. -- Avanu (talk) 01:26, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for not seeing what I'm doing. Thanks for pointing that out.--Canadiandy talk 01:45, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Theology: restorationist?

I am a member of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". The Theology section / banner at the right says it's Non-trinitarian? The first article of faith (from the Pearl of Great Price) states: "We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in his Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost". This is how I would define the "Trinity or Godhead". I think a more accurate term would be "Restorationist" theology. Since the other article of faith (#6) also states that "we believe .. in the primitive organization of the church". See also the article on this at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorationist. Which includes a section of the church.

How can we update the theology section to refer to it as Restorationist?

Thanks, — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.100.28.206 (talk) 02:14, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

The Trinity is a concept that involves God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit being three personages of the same entity, not separate beings that have a common title. Mormon theology explicity denies the concept of The Trinity, starting with Joseph Smith's own words. -- Avanu (talk) 02:25, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Restorationist refers to the idea that Mormons are restoring the church to its roots because they believe they have an ancient connection, unlike Martin Luther (for example), who was *reforming* abuses (See Reformation), and therefore returning the church to its roots via correction of those abuses. -- Avanu (talk) 02:28, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Reverts

I have reverted two good faith edits made by 68.100.28.206, but I don't want to hit WP:3RR (more than 3 reverts) on this so I'm just mentioning it here. Each revert was essentially done with an eye toward overall article quality, but I don't want to go beyond 3 reverts just for this. Just wanting to bring it up here so if anyone else is watching they can take appropriate steps if needed. -- Avanu (talk) 02:45, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

I think I might be at 3 now (in 24 hours), having reverted in order to keep the link for Latter Day Saint movement in the lead. -- Avanu (talk) 14:49, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Incidentally, Canadiandy has removed the link again, but I don't want to run afoul of the 3RR rule by going beyond 3 reverts, so if anyone else wants to address this, please do. Thanks. -- Avanu (talk) 15:03, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Canadiandy, I think most people here understand and accept that you are trying in good faith to improve this article. However, in addition to the point already made that it's necessary to strike a balance in order to maintain a neutral viewpoint (see WP:NPOV), you need to realize that this one article is part of an assorted collection of pages covering various aspects of a wider religious / historical phenomenon. I would strongly recommend you take some time to read the various other articles on this overall topic (starting with Latter Day Saint movement and branching off as appropriate), in order to gain a wider perspective on the extent of the subject we're dealing with here. Also, please understand that what is already here has arisen through a lengthy (and still ongoing) process of compromise and consensus — not to suggest that the current text is graven in stone and must not be changed, but you simply have to take careful note of what has already been going on before boldly jumping in and rewriting things in a way that may seem more proper to you, but which others may see as unduly one-sided. This is not a "pro-vs.-anti-Mormon" thing — some of the people here who have been disagreeing with you and advocating for the current text (myself included) are active, believing, practising members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I have reinstated the earlier version of the lead sentence (mentioning the "Latter Day Saint movement founded by Joseph Smith Jr."), and I would urge you to allow this text to remain as is until you have done your homework (see above) and until/unless you can form a genuine consensus with other editors (here on the article's talk page) for an alternative wording. Richwales (talk · contribs) 15:31, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

First of all, approaching over editing and then recruiting others here to edit for you looks a little sketchy. As to the accusation of pro-Mormon bias, pro-Mormon would look like, "Jesus Christ restored His Church through the prophet Joseph Smith." Anti-Mormon looks like, "Joseph Smith founded the Latter Day Saint Movement". Neutral looks like, "Joseph Smith organized the Church of Christ (later named the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints)". There is more than sufficient reliable, peer-reviewed sourcing for this history. Why are we scared to allow the connection of Joseph Smith to the clearly held academic knowledge that Joseph Smith founded the Church of Christ? Do we need help resolving this?--Canadiandy (talk) 05:00, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Joseph Smith founded a movement? 2

I'm not sure what the edit warring is all about. There was no further discussion and so I made an edit. What is wrong with identifying Joseph Smith organized the Church of Christ? If you don't like it this is the place to discuss.--Canadiandy talk 19:51, 16 June 2011 (UTC)