Talk:Ronald Reagan

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Solidarity, Soros & Vatican

Removed it because it's not relevant. Belongs on the SOlidarty page not here.

Party switch=

I removed the whole section on his switch from democrat to republican because it's redundant. 90% of it is covered in the preceding paragraphs.

Glasnost & Arms buildup

I removed the following paragraph, because it doesn't make much sense. Glasnost was a response to Reagan's policies. The lack of a Soviet buildup was a predicted response to Reagan's challenge, and does nothing to disprove the efficacy of his policy.

Many analysts argue that the eventual collapse of the Soviet Union was due more to the re-emergence of separatist movements under glasnost, an inherent weakness in communist economic theory, and the depressed global price of crude oil, on which the Soviet economy during those years depended heavily. Furthermore, Reagan's much heralded military buildup that increased American military spending by 8% per annum in fact did not appear to have the planned effect of forcing the Soviets to mirror American growth: according to CIA estimates, Soviet military spending leveled off at a growth rate of 1.3% per annum in 1975 and remained at that level for a decade, although it more than tripled to approximately 4.3% in 1985 through 1987 (though spending on offensive strategic weapons continued to grow at 1.3% during that period), before returning to 1.3% in 1988.

````

You removed valid information based on your interpretation of it. That's not a reasonable edit. You also removed another paragraph you don't mention here. I've fixed this.--csloat 19:05, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. The information is valid, but the information presented comes with an interpretation. Therein lies the problem. It's inelegant is all. Anybody reasonablyh intelligent can tell that it doesn't make sense. It's my opinion that removing it improves the article. If you all disagree, that's fine with me.

Popularity in Europe

I removed the following paragraph because it's neither scientific nor informative. No poll numbers or studies cited to support any of this.

Residents of Western European countries often saw Reagan very differently from many Americans. In the United Kingdom, though Reagan had the strong support of Margaret Thatcher, he was routinely lampooned by much of the media as being dim-witted, if not senile. This was fueled by certain real-life incidents, including a November 9, 1985, speaking engagement in which he forgot the name of Diana, Princess of Wales and after some hesitation referred to her as 'Princess David', to widespread embarrassment. In the nations of Eastern Europe, however, Reagan enjoyed a good deal of popularity among residents (though not their governments) for his harsh criticism of communism, and has been praised extensively for his role in ending the Cold War.

Democrat to Republican

I removed the bit about "birth of a nation" and jews, because it has nothing to do with being republican or democrat. I also removed the assertion that reagan changed parties because of republican stance against communism, a simplistic explanation. Reagan changed parties in part because of communism, but more so in response to his change in view of the role of the federal government, a change made possible by his tours sponsored by GE in which he met possibly thousands of working-class Americans.

Can someone please fix Reagan's bio? (vandalism)

Some wiseguy vandalized his bio saying Reagan was gay. I would fix it myself but I don't know what it said before it was vandalized.

circumcision

Earlier this fall there was mention of the fact that Reagan was not circumsized. I wonder why somebody chose to remove it? I believe it is a matter of pubic interest. Natebjones 20:49, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

In what way is that a matter of public interest, oh, ha, you said "pubic" interest, I get it. Funny. I do hope you are joking about putting that in though, since it does not very important from an encyclopedic standpoint, unless of course he is known for that, which I doubt he is. The Ungovernable Force 05:34, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

debt

I made a modification to the statement about the debt, expressing it in terms of GDP percentage, since - saying it tripled is misleading and - claiming it decreased as a percentage of national income is plainly false [1] --Emilio floris 17:19, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Good call

Economics student

From the 'Presidential Campaign'-section:

"Reagan ultimately ended up looking well in this debate "reaganomics" ultimately ended up giving the nation its largest period of peacetime growth througout the late 80's and early 90's through a policy of fiscal restraint and Tax Cuts!"

Some comments: -The exclamation mark looks a bit..cheerleader-y doesn't it? Yes, it's enough to vomit, which is why i deleted the entire thing! and although those comments were very transparent, your anti-Reagan bias is not... and our Reagan-lovers points are not altogether incorrect

-"Largest" period of growth? Longest would be more suitable but I'm not sure if it's actually true. I know that the economy went into a recession (negative growth) in mid 1990 so to say that the period of growth lasted into the "early 90's" is perhaps not the best way of putting it.The Reagan expansion lasted 92 months...

-Factually speaking I wouldn't call 1981-1989 years of fiscal restraint since the federal government ran huge deficits during especially the latter half of the 1980's. if I'm not wrong Reagan borrowed more money than all earlier presidents combined.Regarding domestic spending, Reagan was very restrained. Check out the annual percentage increase of domestic spending by the following presidents:

Truman 5.5% Ike 7.5 Kennedy/Johnson 8.0 Nixon/Ford 8.5 Reagan 1.0 Bush 4.5 Clinton 3.0

Also note that, under Reagan, domestic spending declined as a percentage of GDP from 15.3% to 12.9%

-Growth during this period was quite unspectacular so the section about just seems a bit misleading to me. Growth during the Reagan years averaged 3.2% - higher than Eisenhower (2.3%), Nixon/Ford (3.0%), Carter (2.5%), Bush (1.3%) and higher than Clinton's average during his first term (2.6%)... (I don't know about Clinton's second term or GW Bush's presidency)... interestingly, only Kennedy/Johnson had a higher average (4.9%) and a longer expansion (106 months)... Kennedy began his presidency with 30% across the board tax cut...

-Reagan cut taxes twice and raised them twice so...my point is that this entire section makes the article worse.

Any other comments on this part?

From the 'Domestic record' section:

"Opponents charged that while the economy had recovered, Reagan's policies had created an increase in the gap between the rich and the poor. The studies on this issue are inconclusive and contradictory."

While the effects of the policies are inconclusive (how often is it possible to determine a cause-and-effect relation in social sciences incl economics) the general development when it comes to income distribution is very well documented. This development (the 99th percentile had a better development than the 95, the 95th better than the 70th etc. all the way down to the bottom)was not unique for the Reagan years (it continued under Bush and Clinton) but it is usually associated with Reagans policies.

during the Reagan years, ALL economic groups saw their income rise in real terms, including the bottom quintile, which rose 6%... what did JFK say? "A rising tide lifts all boats"

here's another interesting tidbit - during the Reagan years, the real household income for white's went up 9.8%, for blacks, 11.0%

213.100.19.238 21:22, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm just wondering?

How come there's no mention of him suffering from Alzheimer's during the presidency? That has to be at least moderatly notable.. don't you think? I mean it takes around 14 years for Alzheimer's to run it's course, there's no way he wasn't showing some signs back in the 80s--172.208.123.70 14:00, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

So find some authoritative source regarding this and put it in the article. I mean, I think you're right, but that's only because of my own original research. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 16:42, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Peggy Noonan writes in her biography When Character Was King that she asked interviewees about it, and it was unanimously agreed that Reagan had not shown signs of Alzheimer's while President. - Calmypal (T) 20:02, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

That's absurd, did he have some special type of Alzheimer's that somehow appears overnight? If he had full blown Alzheimer's by the early 2000s/late 1990s, then he had to have shown signs of memory loss, and early dementia far earlier, and speaking as a relative of an Alzheimer's sufferer, frankly, you can see signs several decades in advance, even if full blown symptoms aren't observed..--172.208.123.70 21:44, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

So find some authoritative source regarding this and put it in the article. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 03:12, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, he did land on his head when thrown from a horse in 1992. - Calmypal (T) 01:05, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

A Democrat

Ronald Reagan was a Democrat. I know it to be true but am unable to find infromation on it. Anyone have more information? 128.206.114.40 03:05, 5 October 2005 (UTC)mrsfgc

== Correct, Ronald Reagan was a Democrat. But this was only for a portion of his life. As to when his political stance changed, it is unclear. What is clear is that the reasons that he was a Democrat did not change. One of the main reasons that he was a Democrat when he was younger, was becuase his father, Jack Reagan, had made sure that Ronald hated prejudice of all forms. Ronald felt that the Democratic party as a whole held these views as well. Therefor, he became a Democrat. Then, later in life when he felt that his views on prejudice and other issues, such as communism, had switched to the Republican party, he too made the switch. [11-02-05, Diego Nunez) ==

This is a very good example of a well-written, balanced article. Just want to thrown in my two cents worth:

1 - Could be more on the interventions in Central America, or at least links to articles on the relevant topics. They had a huge impact on the nations concerned, and continue to reverberate to this day.

2 - Correct me if I am wrong, but is there any mention of Marcos?

3 - "Residents of Western European countries often saw Reagan very differently from many Americans" Why? This sentence needs some explanation rather than let it hang in the air. For example, when he visited Ireland in 1984 he faced massive protests as a direct result of the repression and deaths he had sponsored and caused in Central American countrys (which were, like Ireland, Catholic). Its not enough simply to say he was percieved differently, it must be explained why. Otherwise people will get the impression it was the result of knee-jerk anti-Americanism (which is rarely the case; it ALWAYS has a cause).

4 - Concerning his short dissertation on Jesus (quoted in the article):

"These and other statements he made about himself, foreclose in my opinion, any question as to his divinity. It doesn't seem to me that he gave us any choice; either he was what he said he was or he was the world's greatest liar." Fair enough, but Jesus did'nt make those statments about himself; the many writers of the Gospels wrote those claims. We have'nt a clue what Jesus ever said of himself. that's a bit like saying that we don't know that george washington was really the first president, or that there ever even was a roman empire... the many writers of history wrote those claims

5 - Alzheimer's disease. I have no problem with it being confined to his post-presidental life. Just wondering why there is not more discussion on it, and possible effects it had while he was still in office.

Please keep in mind that these are not so much critisisms as sincere queries. It is certainly worthy of FA status. Cheers! Fergananim 10:49, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Uh, That stuff up there isn't like saying thay we don't know George Washington was really the first president at all. He was written about extensively, particularly by all those British soldiers he maimed and sent packing. Also, he wrote a book, among other things. In fact, he's recorded in thousands of existing sources originating all around the world, all in the same period of years. So, uh, good luck topping that one with Jesus, whose existence was intitially recorded in four texts, all of which contradict each other, contain things nobody could have possibly known (like what Jesus said on the cross when no one was there), and derives from the most superstitious, religion-breeding locale on the face of the planet. So, you know, there you go. 70.112.100.91

Visit to Bitburg

It has been twenty years, so my memory is a bit fuzzy on this, but my recollection is that Reagan and his staff, and many in the media, were well aware of the significance of Bitburg before his visit, and that there was something of a small public outcry before he visited the cemetary. Is that incorrect?--csloat 03:58, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Your memory is in accordance with the account given in Richard Reeves's new book on Reagan's presidency. He writes that everyone was fully aware that there were SS soldiers buried there, and that many people, such as Elie Wiesel, asked him not to go, but Reagan chose to do so because of a promise made to Helmut Kohl. If Reeves's version is correct, the Wikipedia version is fictional. --Kevin

the hickley shooting

the Hichkey shooting incident hardly belongs in the Domestic Record section. maybe it can be put in the reagan "humour" and "sunny optimism" paragraph. Doldrums 17:46, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

copyedits/rewrites on the economy

note on the edits

1. removed phrase "successfully slowed the growth" as cumbersome.
2. added increased military spending that accompanied reduced spending on welfare.
3. rewrote in active voice
4. replaced "staunch anti-Communist stance" with "new cold-war strategy" as the logical explanation for increased military spending.
5. replaced "inflation and unemployment problems had been solved" with the two being lowered.

Doldrums 18:57, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Doldrums - to appease you, I added the actual inflation and unemployment numbers for the Reagan years to the article, allowing the readers to decide if their decreases were, in fact, dramatic. The inflation numbers are from www.inflationdata.com (which gets their stats from the Bureau of Labor Statistics), while the employment figures are directly from the BLS (www.bls.gov).

additionally, while you think the phrase "slowed the growth of welfare and social spending" is cumbersome, it is not synonymous with "cutbacks" and is historically accurate. (domestic spending increase in real dollars by 1.0% per year under Reagan) if you insist on using the phrase "cutbacks," please justify it with verifiable evidence. your personal bias is not sufficient. 207.200.116.7 07:26, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

fair enough, on both points. what i'd like to see (but don'tknow enough economics to do myself) is

1. verify that the two inflation rate figures are comparable - i understand that on occasion, the means by which inflation is calculated is modified (a change in the "basket of goods"?). so a statement from a "good" source that the two are comparable wld be nice. (as far as i know, no such trouble with unemployment)
2. interpretation of these figures. the 13% came on the back of an oil price jump in the mid 70s[2]. is there a consensus or "neutral" opinion among economists characterising the change in inflation, unemployment?
3. i understand that cutbacks and "reduced increases" are not the same. despite that, the "successfully" is unwarranted, - he did it or didn't so it, successfully did it is reduntant. something like "cuts to increases in welfare spending" is ok, i think.
4. the reagan administration article has this to say

"not only did Reagan retreat from proposed cuts in the Social Security budget, but he also appointed the Greenspan Commission which resolved the solvency crisis through reforms including increases in the payroll tax. Although Reagan achieved a marginal reduction in the rate of expansion of government spending, his overall fiscal policy was expansionary. Social programs grew apace at the behest of the Democratic-controlled Congress."

need to reconcile this with the reagan article.

Doldrums 11:12, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Is this true?

"On his way to California's governorship, he opposed the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965."

"On June 17th 1966 California gubernatorial candidate Ronald Reagan was quoted in the Los Angeles Times as saying: "I would have voted against the Civil Rights Act of 1964."

I'm removing this quote from the article for now. Even with a source it's hard to tell what to make of it without any context or connection with any greater discussion of his policies. I can find online sources for the quote but most also mention other quotes like, "I favor the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and it must be enforced at gunpoint if necessary." [3], (or the variant, "'I favor the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and it must be enforced at the point of a bayonet, if necessary.' --Ronald Reagan, Los Angeles Times, October 20, 1965" [4]). In any case it's not an appropriate first paragraph about his governorship. Tajmahall 14:40, 10 November 2005

true?

Reagan wanted to cut the school lunch program, calling ketchup a vegetable, and spun lies about "welfare queens."

Reagan was silent for years on AIDS. He tried to get tax exemptions for racist Bob Jones University. He originally opposed the Martin Luther King holiday before signing it into law. He did veto an extension of the Civil Rights Act in 1988 and defanged the US Civil Rights Commission. He exchanged schools for the prison boom. Reagan's legacy is still alive. The senior President Bush vetoed a major civil rights bill in 1990 and vetoed an increase in the minimum wage. President Clinton slashed welfare. The junior President Bush campaigned at Bob Jones and sided with the white students who wanted to destroy affirmative action at the University of Michigan.

is this a president bush article? 202.68.163.192 05:16, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

more "true?"

there are a few unverifiable or unverified statements in the article. are there any sources for it? from what i could see, there wasn't any sources listed in the archived talk pages either.

• (during college years)he made many lasting friendships.
• Reagan tried repeatedly to go overseas for combat duty,
• In both of his marriages, Reagan was known as a loving and devoted husband.
• Believing that the Republican Party was better able to combat communism, Reagan gradually abandoned his left-of-center political views,

the statement "He gradually became a staunch social and fiscal conservative" should perhaps read he talked staunch fiscal (and social?) conservative, perhaps. given his record as governor and president (see below).

the LA times obituary[5] mentions that, as governor reagan

1. proposed a 10% budget cut but ended up with a 10% raise
2. the state budget went from $4.6billion to $10.2billion over his tenure, aprtly because of inflation.
3. he signed "a historic abortion reform bill authored by a Democrat that vastly liberalized the procedure in California. Advocates promoted it as a model for other states ..." despite his later anti-abortion stand.
4. he signed some of the "strictest air and water quality laws, increased state parkland and started requiring environmental impact reports on state construction projects"

the last two also need to be incorporated into the governorship section. Doldrums 20:42, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I think the testemony of Nancy Reagan in the case of his devotion, is apt. There is not proof otherwise, however, a case can be made from her statements. Dominick <sup>(ŤαĿĶ)</sup> 14:35, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

from what i vaguely recall from the Reagans (docudrama) controversy, the family life is a pretty complicated one, and to sum it up in one sugary line, i think, is not needed. further, in line with wiki editing guidelines, it might be better to let the facts speak for themselves, rather than page editors make judgements on how devoted or loving a father he was. Doldrums 16:08, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Reagan the Radical and Knee-Jerk Anti-Americanism in Western Europe

Although Reagan may be a conservative in the USA, in Western Europe and much of the rest of the first world he was seen a radical right-wing fundamentalist. By the standards of other Western democracies, Reagan was a racist, a religious fundamentalist and an economic fascist (Just compare him to Benito Mussolini. I am NOT calling Reagan a Nazi, but a fascist. They are completely different things). Reagan had a great many good qualities. He saw past his own party's anti-communist paranioa, and along with Mikhail Gorbachev he made significant steps towards world peace. But he is not remembered fondly by most people outside the USA (radical left-wing, centre-left and conservative right-wing alike) because his policies were so extreme by world standards. In fact, Reagan is greatly responsible for knee-jerk Anti-Americanism because his policies were so hostile to the majority in other countries.

• See Ronald Reagan#Criticisms. Economic fascist? Please explain; it seems to me that Reagan merely continued the essentially corporatist nature of the American system. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 02:17, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Other Opinions:Update

"An honest account would mention that Ronnie often confused his movie roles with reality. And how some WWII vets like my father consider the actor a poseur. - Sparky 05:08, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)"

Anyone want to handle this? It is a good point - one I remember not a few elderly Americans making in the late 1980's - not to mention his statement of being present at the liberation of one or other of the concentration camps. And there is still far too little account made of the effects of his policys in Central America. Fergananim 14:49, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Intro

This article has some nice pictures and a lot of info, but wouldn't meet Wikipedia:Featured Article criteria. I would like to try to expand the introduction. Kaisershatner 18:29, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Honors

The two events shown under Posthumous Honors are not things that I would normally refer to as "honors". Is there a Wikipedia definition of what an "honor" is, for the purposes of our biographies? JackofOz 01:29, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to add a section of awards and decorations under Honors, I think. I know he recieved the Presidential Medal of Freedom (US), Grand Cordon of the Order of the Chrysanthemum (Japan), and Order of the Bath (UK), but does anyone have a complete list? --ReidComyn 09:46, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

message to administrator jgordon

please refrain from abusing your power of reverting

you reverted my edit from a couple of days ago... my edit was accurate and valid

you violated wiki rules when you used the one-click rollback on my edit - clearly my edit was not "simple vandalism"

please read, and in the future, do the right thing:

Reverting

Revert pages quickly. Any user (logged-in or not) can revert a page to an earlier version. Administrators have a faster, automated reversion tool to help them revert vandalism by anonymous editors. When looking at a user's contributions, a link that looks like: [rollback] – appears next to edits that are at the top of the edit history. Clicking on the link reverts to the last edit not authored by that user, with an edit summary of (Reverted edits by X to last version by Y) and marks it as a minor change. Do not use one-click rollback on edits that are not simple vandalism; please use manual rollback with an appropriate edit summary.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jpgordon" 207.200.116.7 09:13, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Remove Thatcher quote, 2nd P.

I intend to remove the following quote in "Foreign policy and interventions" 2nd paragraph.

Former Prime Minister of the United Kingdom Margaret Thatcher said, "Ronald Reagan won the Cold War without firing a shot."

I think this just serves to push a positive connotation with the the person of Ronald Reagan and is uncalled for in a encyclopedia. I think you wouldn't say: "Nelson Mandela ended Apartheid without firing a shot". The fact that it happened speaks for itself.

Thank you for your consideration.

Boo 15:33, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Whereas it would not be appropriate for a contributer to opine that "Ronald Reagan won the Cold War without firing a shot," it is wholly appropriate to include a statement by the former prime minister of the UK.

additionally, the article quotes george bush, walter mondale, milton friedman, "critics," henry kissinger, larry speakes, jose ramos-horta and desmond tutu - mostly to reagan's detriment 207.200.116.7 22:12, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

why do you shout? I'd appreciate if you had the courtesy of signing your talk entry my dear 207.200.116.7.

No other objections? --Boo 15:14, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Reagan's Job Performance

Dates are for the Poll, not the event. That is why the revert. Reagan's Job Performance--FloNight 20:09, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Casey hoax 1980

Congress investigated the story that Casey cut a deal with the Iranians in Madrid. All the newspapers covered the testimony that showed Casey was in London that day. Someone had planted a hoax -- and if they fabricated the Madrid part then they cannot be trusted in any other part. No documents ever emerged showing there was such a plot. Wiiki should say there was a hoax and it was exposed by Congress as false. Rjensen 00:09, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

added some sources on the casey "hoax" below. Doldrums 10:02, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

• congressional record, 1991 from FAS.
• article on CJR, examining the news articles alleging the casey conspiracy.

removed from Iowa article

I'm removing this from the Iowa article, as it's a very minor event (not even mentioned on this page), but you may want to include it at some point, if it can be verified:

• Ronald Reagan, the 40th President of the United States, worked at Davenport, Iowa's radio station, WOC, as a sports announcer for University of Iowa games in 1932. In 1933 he became the chief sports announcer for WOC's sister station in Des Moines, WHO.

-- nae'blis <sub>(talk)</sub> 23:43, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

One State, Two State; Red State, Blue State

Maybe we could find an electoral college map which shows the Republican-voting states as red, and the Democrat-voting states as blue. I know that before the current post-2000 paradigm, they alternated the colors every election, and that's most likely when these maps were created. I also know that Wikipedia shouldn't conform to current trends, but I'd rather we settle on simplicity and not confusing politically-inept people than 'tradition'. I mean, it's not like we're lying.

"because of astigmatism"

In the section on military experience it says he tried for combat service but was "turned down because of astigmatism." Is there a reference for this? Not saying it's not true, but without a reference it comes off as an add-on by a Reagan partisan looking to apologize for Reagan pretty much only making during the war movies. Just wondering. . .

RR was indeed in uniform assigned to making scores of training movies. I've seen a few snippets--where he patiently explains how to use this or that piece of equipment. He mostly made films for the Air Force which used it as their #1 training device to show 2+ million airmen how to use all the equipment. One film takes navigators step by step through a bombing run. He narrated one of the Frank Capra war documentaries on China.Rjensen 02:46, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Pictures

I will be back with some more horse pictures! /Gkirk

Why is it that President George H.W. Bush appears to have a bottle of Jack Daniels in the photo of Reagan's cabinet? Is this a real photo?

It's a vandal. I deleted it. Rjensen 21:12, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

"Reagan 80s"?

The comment that "the political and cultural dominance exhibited by Ronald Reagan and his message of confidence and optimism led many to call the decade in which he was President, the 'Reagan 80's'" is underdetermined by the evidence. A Google search brings up similar results for "Clinton 90s" and "Nixon 70s." Hence, I think the phrase is meaningless - it also has the odour of a non-neutral POV. Lots of people associate Reagan with the 1980s in a negative way; and recall his message differently. Unless there is some compelling rationale offered for maintaining this sentence, I will edit it out.Fishhead64 00:50, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

well no, historians are starting to use the term. See the NY Times Book Review 1-29-06 and The Age of Reagan, 1964-1980: The Fall of the Old Liberal Order by Steven F. Hayward (2001) Rjensen 05:48, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

This phrase does not appear in to Wooldridge article, and Hayward is not a neutral source, but rather a strong defender of Reagan and his legacy. I'm still waiting for some rationale for this evident non-neutrality - I'll give it a few more days. Fishhead64, 05:15, 01 February 2006 (UTC)

Search it in quotes on Google: "Reagan 80s" comes to ~11700 and "Clinton 90s" and "Nixon 70s" are both below 600. 128.239.145.221 00:02, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Debate comment

He seemed more at ease, deflecting President Carter's criticisms with remarks like "There you go again."

I can't find this in the transcript of the debate. Did it come from somewhere else?

• It was certainly uttered in the debate--just not in the transcript! It came up again 4 years later See Cannon bio p 477: [re 1984 debate] "After Mondale had charged that Reagan would find it necessary to raise taxes after the campaign, Reagan had responded with the "There you go again" line that he had used so effectively against Carter. Mondale had been expecting the line, and he pounced on it when it came his turn for rebuttal. Turning and facing Reagan, Mondale said, "Now, Mr. President, you said, 'There you go again,' right?" "Yes," Reagan said. ...." Rjensen 02:36, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Polemical or humorous attacks

what constitutes a "Polemical or humorous attack"? by a similar standard, should i start moving some of the crud in secondary sources to "polemical and laughable hagiographies"? Doldrums 07:52, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

The continued vandalism of this article by anti-Reagan fanatics is one of the reasons Wikipedia keeps getting labled as a joke in the research world.

An introduction is just that

Attempts by some editors to include their pet topics in the introduction is leading to edit wars. An introduction is just that, it introduces the topic at hand. Whether you support the President and want to feature the economic growth of the era or ara critic and want to obsess over Iran Contra there are places within the main article to do that.

Furthermore, Iran contra was indeed a scandal, but it was not a "loss of control" of foriegn policy. That term is not neutral and implies that Reagan was not in control of foreign policy. He most assuredly was, he was simply being lied to by those he trusted.

Abel Archer: minor historical even. It sared the pants off the Soviet high command but is not indicative of how Ronald Reagan "almost caused a nuclear war". Even if had had been more than a war alert on the Soviet side it would have been the fault of the Soviets if they had launched nuclear weapons, not Reagan.

The recession started in 1981 and ended in 1982. It did not occur in 1983. It was not "sharp" except for unemployment, which was already high. It started before Reagan's first economic package was approved and ended shortly thereafter. If anything Reagan's policies had the effect of ending this recession, not starting it.

Again these are points to be hashed out in the body of the article, not in the introduction! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Realityhammer (talk • contribs) .

Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~).

The United States was convicted of having supported terrorism in Nicaragua by the International Court of Justice, refused to pay reparations even when a United Nations General Assembly resoultion was passed near unanimously, and then the dirty war was financed by drug money and illegal weapons trade, and you think this is not a major issue? Get-back-world-respect 00:37, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

What does that have to do with what I said about an introduction being an introduction? Realityhammer 01:19, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Given it was a major issue, the Iran-Contra scandal needs to be included in the introduction. Get-back-world-respect 01:21, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

The introduction is the part that 50% of the readers only read. So it has to summarize the main points quickly. "Loss of Control" is the term RR's supporters used (see Tower report) --it means that your top people are lying to you and doing things you don't know about--we all agreed that happened. Recession of 1981 set the stage--it was worst uneployment since Great Depression (isn't that "sharp"?) The point is not whether RR caused it, the point is that people need to know about it (and also about inflation and interest rates, which I added in later section). Rjensen 00:39, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

My objection to "sharp" is that it implies it was a major reversal from previous trends. It was preceeded by a recession in 1980. If anything, it should have been an "expected" recession as Carter tried to prop up the economy in 1980 by increasing federal spending. Realityhammer 01:19, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

IMO, the only way edit wars are going to stop is if you divide issues into "pro" and "con" sections and let each side write their versions (supported by citations, of course) of events. There are too many unsupported allegations creeping into Wikipedia from all sides. The Abel Archer point is an excellent example of this. Considered by everyone to be relatively minor suddenly someone wants it to be showcased as "proof" that Reagan almost caused a nuclear war. Not even Beth Fischer (cited by as historian in the body, but in reality a political science professor) holds that view. She in fact details that it was Soviet paranoia (spurred on by Yuri Andropov) that caused the alarm in the east, not Ronald Reagan. Yet someone, anonymously at that, wants to highlight this as a major foreign policy failure of the Reagan administration. I don't think so! Realityhammer 01:19, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Wiki project is a failure if people can't agree on basic historical facts. Was 1981-82 recession sharp or mild? People at the time thought it was sharp--(worst between 1958 and today), so why call it mild? Abel Archer belongs in the article but not in the summary (mostly because nothing happened.) Again: the summary should say in 100 -200 words why RR is important. Most people will stop there, so we should get it right. Rjensen 01:23, 12 February 2006 (UTC).

POV in the Introduction

Two examples:

• "a confrontational foreign policy towards the Soviet Union and Socialist movements around the world that proved successful and led to the end of the Cold War." Many other historians suggest that the end of the Cold War was an inevitable result of American foreign policy for many years, as well as the Soviet Union's own missteps (e.g., the disatrous war in Afghanistan). Further, the term "socialism" is msileading. I rather doubt Reagan opposed socialist governments in Scandanavia, for example.
• "The political and cultural dominance exhibited by Ronald Reagan and his message of confidence and optimism led many to call the decade in which he was President, the 'Reagan 80's'" Above, user Rjensen claims that this phrase appears in the Wooldridge article in the NYT. It does not, as a web search for the article will show. And Hayward's hagiographic biography can hardly be cited as a neutral source for such a characterisation. Again, a Google search will yield both positive and negative definitions of "Reagan 80s" - citing such things as support for right-wing death squads in Latin America, for instance. Fishhead64, 05:15, 02 February 2006 (UTC)

Try The Eighties: America in the Age of Reagan by John Ehrman (Yale University Press 2005) which has very strong reviews. Or, by a leading Canadian historian, Morning in America: How Ronald Reagan Invented the 1980's by Gil Troy (Princeton University Press 2005) -- books published by two of the leading universities. Both of the titles clearly support the "Reagan 80s" tag. Rjensen 05:21, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I edited the intro - you may want to have a look. I've retained the "Reagan 80s" tag, as per your citations, by removed the language that suggested that this involves a universally sunny view. Again, I'd refer you to our friend Google, in which people use the moniker in positive, negative, and neutral ways. Reagan was there, he was a dominant figure - hence "Reagan 80s". I also corrected the non-neutral assessment of the effect of his foreign policy, and the incorrect use of the word "socialist." Thoughts? Fishhead64m 05:31, 02 February 2006 (UTC).

Good job in removing the POV. I revised somewhat to emphasize the main points of his presidency, and restored the Wooldridge equote, which offers a European perspective.Rjensen 12:24, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Your revision was good - too bad it was tossed into the ether by another user to once again yield a POV. I don't want to get into a tit for tat, but the anonymous edit should be reverted to your's. Fishhead64 16:45, 02 February 2006 (UTC)

thanks for the support. I will try to repair. Rjensen 17:29, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Here is the last paragraph as I edited last night. [[6]]

Sometimes refered to as the "Reagan 80's", the decade is remembered with varying degrees of nostalgia or loathing, depending on the person. Increasingly, his biographers paint a complex portrait of the man who led the free world in the last decade of the cold war.[7] He died at his home in Bel-Air, California in 2004 at the age of 93, after suffering from Alzheimer's disease for a decade.

I think this edit preserves NPOV, accurately states his status(leader of the free world) and even preserves the tie-in with woolridge's new book ... An isbn link in the biography section to the new Woolridrige Reagan bio would be good too. Mytwocents 18:25, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

• The introduction as it stands is riduculous. It is long, detailed, and unnecessary. The intro should be reverted to the version in Fishhead's draft as of 07:34, 2 February 2006 UTC - there were no debatable POV issues, and it was appropriately concise. New parts of the current intro that Rjensen seems particularly proud of should at least be moved to appropriate sections (example: The Wooldridge quote to the "legacy" section) MooCreature 18:24, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

when you have such a major person it does get a bit complicated. The intro should explain why he's important, and does so in non-POV fashion. The older versions had a lot of miscellaneous information there. Good idea to move Wooldridge quote to end and I will do so. Rjensen 18:34, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

We seem to be involved in protracted edit wars (especially in the introduction), with partisans insisting on trying to present a biased perspective on Reagan's legacy. I just want to remind anyone contemplating such edits that exposure to a breadth of interpretation and analysis is a good thing. This is a biography - not a hagiography or a bill of indictment. Fishhead64, 23:17, 06 February 2006 (UTC)

National debt

An anon removed the statement that the Reagan administration increased the national debt. My recollection is that he not only increased it, but set new records for deficit spending. Is there any reason why this fact should be suppressed? JamesMLane t c 21:15, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

a rewrite of intro

suggest a rewrite of the intro, which concentrates on actions and reduces emphasis on the (mostly contested) effects of these actions. something along these lines (this is not meant to be the whole intro, it has left out the lead paragraph and stuff like "elected president on ...").

The Reagan administration is noted for its economic policy, dubbed Reaganomics, featuring tax cuts and deregulation, combined with increased miltary spending leading to record national debt; its nominations of justices for the supreme court. Reagan's foreign policy included a <shift to a confrontational cold war strategy>, the Iran-Contra affair and interventions in <Grenada, Lebanon>.

His period in office witnessed <changes in inflation, unemployment, gdp growth> and was immediately followed by the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Reagan is noted for espousing <free-markets, anti-communism>. He has been dubbed "The Great Communicator" for <>. Evaluations of his <administration/policies> are controversial, with supporters <saying dum-dee> and critics <saying doo-daa>.

Notes:

1. stuff in <> to be determined.
2. national debt mentioned because the causal link b/w policies and this effect is clear, and (i think) uncontested.
3. have left out reform of tax code and social security, they can be tagged on, if these were thought to be significant actions. incidentally, is it "reform" or "scaling back" of social security?
4. should the justices be named in the intro? imo, no.
5. supporters and critics statemenents to be restricted to one line with two or three phrases, i think.
6. there is no wiki article on the dissolution of soviet union?

comments? Doldrums 07:03, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

some very good ideas here. Please keep the Social Security and income tax reforms. His attacks on labor unions need to be noted. Rjensen 07:15, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

ABLE ARCHER 83

I added a reference and context to ABLE ARCHER 83. Although not widely documented, the incident adds perspective to Reagan's policy of Confrontation towards the Soviet Union. Historians and Cabinet members of Reagan credit ABLE ARCHER with having an effect on the President's policies.

Have you considered creating an ABLE ARCHER / ABLE ARCHER 83 article? Neither exists at the moment. Jpers36 20:55, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I did. It should exist. now you have me worried :-D

Just did a search for "able archer" and it popped up. Natebjones 20:57, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

OK, it's under Able Archer, whereas I was attempting ABLE ARCHER. I will add a redirect. Jpers36 21:09, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

thx

"Noted for defeating the Soviets"

This is clearly not a neutral point of view. I agree that the previous version has its weaknesses, too, honest attempts of improvement are welcome. Get-back-world-respect 23:23, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Good Point. But "collapse" better describes what happened to USSR in 1991 as they were unable to respond to RR's challenges even after giving up their Empire. Rjensen 23:34, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

To claim that one man 'defeated' the Soviet system is an extremely silly thing to say, and does not belong in an encyclopaedia. The most that could be said is that his policies exerted a degree of pressure upon the Soviet economy that was already in a very difficult situation, but note that the Soviet Union was still there after he had ceased to be President. I've lived and researched in the former Soviet Union, and am familiar with the opinions of most British and European academics on the subject. It's clear that the Soviet Union's demise was the consequence of its own internal contradictions, the development of new thinking associated with a new generation, and the attempt by Mikhail Gorbachev to institute a crash programme of reform. The Reagan article is not the place for an exposition of this, but some indication that this claim by his supporters is challenged ought to be included.--Train guard 14:19, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Your fanciful edits claiming "loss of control" and imminent nuclear war over Abel Archer are far from neutral POV. I suggest you keep to editing things you support instead of things you wish to tear down. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Realityhammer (talk • contribs) .

Please sign your statements with ~~~~. The words of the "fanciful edits" are not mine, I just reverted new violations of POV regardless of my opinion that the old version was not completely neutral either. Get-back-world-respect 00:00, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

The "loss of control" is the consensus among Reagan supporters, so it's not hostile. Archer business belongs to later section, not to summary, where it can only mystify people. The summary should talk about big issues, such as Second Cold War and Ending of Cold War-- all in 35 words. Rjensen 00:06, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. I think Able Archer 83 does provide insight on Reagan's policies and the Cold War in general, though.

Did Reagan know about Archer? Rjensen 23:43, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes he did. Originally, it was planned for him, George Bush, and other high level cabinet members to take part in the exercise (NSA McFarlane nixed this idea before the exercise) Margaret Thatcher and Helmut Kohl participated. He heard of the Soviet fear byway of Oleg Gordievsky, a Soviet double agent controlled by MI6, soon after the operation. In an interview with historian Beth B. Fischer McFarlane divulged that Able Archer 83 had a "big influence" on Reagan. In his autobiography, he does not mention Able Archer specifically-he states that he can not mention classified subjects- but writes:

During my first years in Washington, I think many of us in the administration took it for granted that the Russians, like ourselves, considered it unthinkable that the United States would launch a first strike against them. But the more experience I had with Soviet leaders and other heads of state who knew them, the more I began to realize that many Soviet officials feared us not only as adversaries but as potential aggressors who might hurl nuclear weapons at them in a first strike.

The quote is from An American Life by Ronald Reagan; The Reagan Reversal by Beth B. Fischer and From the Cold War to a New Era by Don Obendorfer go into detail about the incident.

Natebjones 17:54, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

So Reagan heard about it later and had no actual role when it happened. That suggests it does not belong in his bio. Rjensen 18:54, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Reagan's role during Able Archer 83 was commander-in-chief of the US military that participated in an extremely (possibly deceivingly) realistic nuclear war game which he signed off on. He also "had no actual role" in Iran Contra. Natebjones 20:09, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

No-- ABle Archer was a NATO exercise and RR had the same role as 15 other heads of government who all signed off. The "story" as they say in the media is that RR escalated the Cold War and frightened the Soviets. The story is not his nominal role in one particular exercise. This is a biography not a hstory of the Cold War. Rjensen 21:57, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

But the National Security Advisor's comment that it had a "big influence" on the president suggests that it was a factor in his life, administration, and, policies. I'd contend that does have a place in a biographical sketch. And, that's without the circumstantial evidence of RRs diary entries about conversing with soviet leaders and telling them "Russians had nothing to fear from us" (Reagan An American Life 585) shortly after AA, and his extension of the rapprochement olive branch in early 1984... just my thoughts.Natebjones 14:12, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Remove link to DemocracyNow!

Taxpayer-funded Pacifica Foundation propoganda is not a valid reference link. There is no news content of value regarding Reagan at the DemocracyNow site, just opposition opinion. Not even a range of opinion, or a discussion with multiple points of view represented, just pure one-sided slanderous hatred.

Nicknames

Someone edited out my reference to the nickname "Ronald Ray Gun." As I mention in my revert edit, we cannot simply allow the laudatory nicknames to stand, and I think I have support for this [8]. Quite apart from that discussion, Google yields nearly 27,000 hits for "Ronald Ray Gun" and its variants ("Ronnie" and "Raygun").Fishhead64 01:28, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Someone edited out the section on nicknames entirely. It would be nice if major edits were accompanied by some explanation of their rationale. Failing this, I've reinserted the section. Fishhead64 23:04, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Primary sources

In the references section, memoirs by Reagan and members of his administration were listed as "primary sources." I think this reflects a misconception of what primary sources are. They are things that are contemporary with events, such as Reagan's speech at the Brandenberg gate, diary entries, memos. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a memoir is a secondary source, even if it is written by Regan himself. –Joke 17:12, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Documents written by Reagan about Reagan are considered primary sources. Historians and librarians normally classify autobiographies and memoirs as primary sources. See for example the library guide at [9]. Rjensen 12:53, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I suppose in retrospect, that makes sense. Still, it is a bit jarring to see them classed together under the heading "primary sources" when you expect to find documents contemporary with the presidency. How about the more precise "Memoirs"? –Joke 15:46, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Regan and Central America

I removed the following:

"More disputed was Reagan's consideration of the Salvadoran FMLN and Honduran guerrilla fighters as terrorists, Reagan is widely credited in El Salvador as having helped the country escape the claws of international communism. He helped overturn the communist guerrilla domino effect already reaching El Salvador and Honduras due to Carter´s handing over Nicaragua to the Sandinistas. "

and replaced it with this

"Reagan is widely credited in El Salvador as having helped create the El Salvador Civil War via his staunch support for its undemocratic, right-wing government; the war left 75,000 people dead, 8,000 more missing and and a million each homeless and exiled."

The line about helping (!) El Salvador escaping the claws of international communisim is a bit rich, as it was US support for right-wing regimes that drove the people to leftist partys, only some of whom espoused communism. It and the following line are far too POV, and read like they were written by someone from the State Department in a 1968 mindset. Any comments on the above are welcome, as far too little has being written about the destructive effect Regan and US policy has had on the peoples of these regions. Fergananim 20:13, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

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Regan and Brian Mulroney

Should there be some sort of discussion regarding Reagan's friendship with Brian Mulroney in the four years they were leaders together? In Peter C. Newman's "The Secret Mulroney Tapes" on page 305 a conversation is quoted where Senator George Mitchell (D-ME) said (paraphrased) "It's the only thing that'll move mountains around here, when the president gets up in the morning and says, 'I want this done. My pal Brian wants this, and that's that...Everybody in Washington knows that Reagan's special relationship is now with Mulroney."