Talk:Ancient Aliens

Wikilink

Can we link to the Antikythera mechanism and wreck and the Baghdad Battery in the pilot's summary? serioushat 00:46, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Disinfo as source

Is Disinfo a reliable source? Neither the cited page, nor its Wikipedia article gives any impression of reliability. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 02:04, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Detailing the Commentators/Researchers that have participated in this project

I just recently finished both Seasons of Ancient Aliens and when I came to the wikipedia I was expecting a bit more information regarding the publication than what was currently present. I'd like to suggest a menu subsection wherein the prominent commentators/researchers/professors are listed, with hyperlinks to their respective websites/projects.

I think another good subsection would be a compendium of all the multiple researchers, both auxiliary and prominent, with links to their respective works and publications.

The reason I think this is important, is because the other day when describing this documentary to someone, I was explaining that it was a very impressive compendium of research from various and seemingly unrelated fields that came together to present such compelling arguments. When going through the episodes we are repeatedly introduced to specialists in archaeology, geology, climatology, oceanography, topography, egyptology, history, philosophy, religion, linguistics, and on and on.

In my opinion, literally drawing out these contributions would help accurately and objectively express just how massive this undertaking was.

68.101.53.46 (talk) 17:39, 14 June 2011 (UTC)Respectfully,

Blake Macon, Georgia

See Ancient astronauts. - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:30, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict):We don't normally do that for television series. This is not an article about 'ancient aliens' - we have one at Ancient astronauts, this needs to stick to the television series. What this article is actually missing is any third party commentary (meeting our criteria at WP:IRS) on the series. That's unfortunate although it might be that there wasn't much. Dougweller (talk) 18:33, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Recent changes to the lede

They seem a bit heavy handed to me. My thought is we move it to the Critical reception section, and that we trim back a bit the linking to the book--this article is just about the show, and it's good to say that the show is based on the book, but unless a reliable source says something like "the show is based on a book that was discredited", linking the two passes to far towards WP:OR. What do others think? --Nuujinn (talk) 19:35, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Only the pilot episode is about Erich von Däniken book, not the whole series as the beginning text is implying. The are others who worked in the field besides him. Cyberia23 (talk) 20:09, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Good to know. Any objection to me moving and recasting? --Nuujinn (talk) 20:11, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

I moved the criticism section - usually the list of episodes are the last thing in a TV article. It's fine the way it is, honestly I'm not going to spend my weekend arguing over this show or people like DougWeller. I have better things to do. Thanks for helping out. Cyberia23 (talk) 20:15, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm happy with the changes. The only thing I've ever been very unhappy with has been descriptions of episodes that referred to disputed subjects in an npov way (ie a reader might not realise that they were disputed) and I haven't been very involved in editing this article. Dougweller (talk) 21:08, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

I think a reader will get the idea that the subject matter of the show in general is disputed. The episode descriptions explain what each episode is about and that's all they need to do. To further indicate that every single statement that lies within those descriptions is disputed may be going overboard and would show too much negative bias to the subject matter than it already has. Cyberia23 (talk) 21:34, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

It's purposeful, the introduction of the idea that the subject matter in general is disputed. The show is frequently criticized as one of several that tarnish the once-good reputation of the History Channel. Binksternet (talk) 21:50, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Per WP:LEAD, the criticism described in the body of the article should be mentioned in the lead section. Binksternet (talk) 22:04, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

History may be getting flack for shows like Ancient Aliens but I don't see what cutting down trees and hauling trucks over ice roads has to do with "History" either. Same goes for wrestling on SyFy and reality shows on MTV (Music Television). Perhaps a station should air what they were supposed to air from the get go then everyone would be happy. Cyberia23 (talk) 23:57, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Per WP:LEAD, the criticism of the show should be summarized in the lede--the lede represents a summary of the entire contents of the article. I have no objection to doing that, but I think the level of detail in there now is excessive, esp. for a lede. --Nuujinn (talk) 00:05, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Repeated links at the "See also" section

At WP:SEEALSO, the guideline says, "Links already integrated into the body of the text are generally not repeated in a "See also" section", which is why I removed some redundant links from the "See also" section, ones which were already present in the article. Binksternet (talk) 23:26, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough, although personally I would like to focus on the POV and OR issues before we turn to MOS. --Nuujinn (talk) 13:35, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Possible OR

The article currently contains the phrase: "... the pilot episode is "basically a rundown of Erich von Däniken's Chariots of the Gods?",[8] a popular book about ancient astronauts that was thoroughly debunked in the 1970s.[9]"

First, a question: [8] is from Tafford Publishing, which is a vanity press. Is Beebe an acknowledged expert in the science or sociology, or some other area that lends authority to their assertions?

Second, this is pretty clearly SYNTH. The sources at 9 do not mention the TV show. So we have a statement from Beebe with essentially a one line plot summary (A), being linked to sources about how Daniken's book was discredited (B) which implies that the show is non-scientific. [C]. My thought is that Beebe's work can be used only if it's reliability can be established, and that we cannot used reviews or articles about Daniken's work here, unless those sources make a direct connection to the TV show (as Beebe does). Thoughts? --Nuujinn (talk) 13:51, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Since the core of the show revolves around von Däniken's beliefs as published in his books, primarily his best-seller Chariot of the Gods?, it is very relevant to the reader to know that the book was debunked by respected religious scholars and mainstream scientists. Yes, indeed, the television program is non-scientific, and it is important that our readers should know this. Binksternet (talk) 18:04, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Why is it relevant? Trying to build a web that implies the show is non-scientific is not our job here. Our job is to use reliable sources back statements about the subject. If reliable sources say that it is non-scientific, we say that, and if an RS makes a connection between the show and the book, we can say that, but the mesh that is evolving here is not appropriate, at least in my opinion. The best way to determine if there is a meaningful relationship between the book (which I read as a teenager, and I'm an old fart) and the show is to find a reliable source that makes that connection for us. --Nuujinn (talk) 18:12, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Possible review source

I don't know whether Poffy's Movie Mania is a reliable source for anything but Poffy's opinions, but there is a review of the TV show hosted there at "Ancient Aliens: Proving you don't have to be abducted to be anal probed."

Poffy's website appears in one other Wikipedia article as a reference: List of fictitious atheists and agnostics. I don't do a lot of movie or TV show articles, so I don't know what review sites are considered reliable. This one is on target, but it does not appear to be quite as mainstream as required by WP. Binksternet (talk) 18:10, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Looks like an SPS of this guy, he doesn't seem to have any particular expertise. seems like he has a beef with IMDB, I wouldn't use it. --Nuujinn (talk) 18:19, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

lede

Xm638 reverted my reversion of an IP who deleted the sentence from the lede stating that the show has been criticized as pseudoscience. I think that statement is pretty well sourced in the article, as since the lede is supposed to be a summary of the article's body, I think the statement should remain. As far as I know, there's been no praise of the show as being scientifically accurate, and if there is, I'd be glad to have that in the article. But barring that, I think the presentation is pretty neutral in terms of reflecting what sources we do have. What do others think? --Nuujinn (talk) 20:42, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

"the show has been criticized". Mostly incorrect. The article you provide criticizes the ideas this show is based behind, not this show. Note that it is written before the first series even aired. You are bringing in a very negative and biased view to this article. I don't mind having that in the critical reception, but citing it in the overview isn't doing anything. And to be fair, this show is very well receieved by the UFO community and has been proved to have a lot of scientific fact reguarding their ideas on Hy-Brasil, pyramids, artificats from Egypt. I will try to edit this page up next week, if I get some time, with fair opinions of both sides. --Xm638 (talk) 20:51, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

The pseudoscience criticism is valid and supported, and should remain in the lead. The show itself has been criticized by normal scientists, not by UFO hunters and alien astronaut seekers. Binksternet (talk) 20:52, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

And this benefits the overview how? The article cited is much more relevant on the "ancient astronaut" page, it has nothing to do with the show itself! You are showing bias in your own comment, the show is all about suggesting different alternatives to mainstream science; the one paper you keep bringing up criticizes, not the show, but various ideas the show is based behind. Ancient Aliens admits to be speculative at times, this topic is controversial; no news there! I'd rather the first paragraph just give an overview of what the show is trying to do, and let the reader make up his/her own mind. All I ask is that we try to show both sides, the amount of bias currently shown is straight up ridiculous. --Xm638 (talk) 21:06, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

There are four references for the critical reception section, and the first three deal directly with the show. I think you have a valid point regarding the fourth, since it does not treat the show directly, and I shall remove that sentence. But that does not change my position on the question of the sentence in the lede. Please review WP:NPOV, we are not supposed to present both sides, but rather neutrally present what reliable sources say. If you can find sources praising the science of the show, by all mean bring them here. --Nuujinn (talk) 21:25, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I understand what you are saying. I have no problem with the reviews that are mentioned, and I have no problem talking about how the ideas brought up in this show are not accepted by mainstream scientists. But, this show is not about saying "this is fact, accept it.", it is about different possibilities! If you watch any of the episodes, they suggest different routes to many ideas, by trying to act like the show is scientifically incorrect right from the get go is not doing justice to what the show is about (which is what the lede is all about!!). Ancient Aliens in a way is about defying what is widely accepted and suggesting different alternatives! I will bring forward articles that prove some of the things mentioned in this show hopefully next week.... if I don't get around to it, I ask others to try and do this as well; this show is not being done justice by this article. I know a good number of things mentioned in the episode "The Evidence" have very well written papers and documentation that back up what they say.

I will level with you, how about we put something along the lines of "the show explores a number of controversial ideas and topics that some have criticized as pseudoscience." This is even pushing it, because there are people who strongly support it that are scientists and scholars, some are interviewed in the show, but I will attempt to get articles on this as well. And in the critical reception.... "Some reviewers..." That would be a good start in removing said bias. Like I said, give me a week or so to gather some good articles backing up things mentioned in the show. --Xm638 (talk) 21:46, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

We can play with the wording later, I'm interested in what sources you can turn up from the UFO crowd. That's fair game, as they are the audience the show is oriented towards. But we will have to observe due weight, and keep in mind whatever one's belief, this is a fringe area in terms of science. --Nuujinn (talk) 22:42, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

I restored the Fritze article named "On the Perils and Pleasures of Confronting Pseudohistory". Fritze criticizes the History Channel for airing "the credulous documentary Ancient Aliens" in long rant against pseudoscience. By "credulous" he means too quick to believe, too gullible. He is saying that Ancient Aliens puts pseudoscience on the air without examining it very thoroughly. Binksternet (talk) 00:56, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Can you provide a quote? I can't get to the full text of that article...--Nuujinn (talk) 01:05, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

It would take me scheduling another visit to the local university library. Until then I just have my brief notes and these sentences: "Why does the History Channel air the credulous documentary Ancient Aliens and by doing so give credence to the ideas of Erik von Däniken?" Fritze writes about the popular attraction to pseudoscience, then says, "Periodically it revives, as evidenced by the Ancient Aliens documentary that appeared on the History Channel in the spring of 2009. In a pop culture with a short memory and a voracious appetite, aliens and pyramids and lost civilizations are recycled like fashions." Binksternet (talk) 02:31, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

@Xm638. I must disagree. The ideas contained in this show are not "controversial" within science. There is no debate found in academic journals regarding UFOs and aliens and pyramids and "lost" civilizations. Such speculation is ignored. - LuckyLouie (talk) 14:02, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree that the ideas are not controversial within science, but we do not limit ourselves to what science says. If reliable sources cover reception of the show outside of the scientific community, we can cover that, keeping mind that this is not mainstream science. Binksternet, since you have a quote from your notes, that seems find to me and sufficiently verified. --Nuujinn (talk) 14:41, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

'Kay, thanks. Binksternet (talk) 15:52, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

'Critical Review' section is filled with inherent bias

The 'Critical Review' section lets the misinformed feel that the reviews are in fact from reputable sources such as academics or historians however they are merely from television show reviewers in magazines or newspapers and as such, due to the nature of their career not experts in the field so to publish their 'higlighted' quotes of 'psedoscience' or 'pseudohistory' are misleading. When being on the history channel the issues are factual, and are raising valid points such as questions of who created Göbekli Tepe and who buried it and why, a place which doesn't fit in with conventional history. Speculation is how paradigm shifts occur.

-SM