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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 121.114.125.220 (talk) at 12:38, 15 August 2011 (→‎Also used for asians?). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Special term?

This article takes a long time coming to the point that the word has no definitions which can directly be taken as negative or pejorative. But instead the "political correct" activists have assigned connotations to the word which actually belong to the strong attitudes which is applied, often along with specific longer phrasings. That is, its not the phrasing alone and especially not the individual words that are negative.

Instead negativity comes from the attitude in vocal tone and body language which adds emphasis and subtext to the words said. Surely there is a term that describes this in a word or two.

Also a word or two that describes the prejudicial reflex that begins assuming the specific attitude based on any similarity of wording. Hopefully also words that also point out the futility of "political correct" policy that outlaws certain otherwise neutral words or combination...given that the negative attitude remains and can adopt new words rather easily.65.26.139.168 (talk) 08:01, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's not our job. See WP:OR. Jpatokal (talk) 10:54, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also used for asians?

Is gaijin used for people from the west only? Is the same term used for Korean and Chinese people? --93.220.22.148 (talk) 18:01, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Gaijin or Gaikokujin is used for all overseas people including Chinese and Korean. --風羽瑞穂 (talk) 10:11, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
While Gaikokujin is indeed used for all foreigners, I disagree with 風羽瑞穂: "gaijin" normally is used more on a basis of appearance/"foreigness", in practice meaning "black/white guy". Jair Moreno (talk) 01:13, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Both "gaikokujin" and "gaijin" refers to any foreigner. The reason why "gaijin" often tends to refer to non-Asians is that the Asians (especially the Chinese and the Koreans) tend to be referred by their specific nationality. 121.114.125.220 (talk) 12:38, 15 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Lead

One reliable source cited in the lead sentence mentions that the word "gaijin" could be "slightly derogatory." However, the sentence reads "Some commentators feel that the word is negative or derogatory in connotation, and thus offensive." I removed "derogatory" because that's not what the reliable sources actually said. Someone put it back without explanation. I'm wondering if can put either "slightly derogatory" in quotation marks or simply remove it entirely because that's not what the reliable sources say. J Readings (talk) 12:09, 11 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Slightly later on in the article, there are three cites given for "...it is seen as derogatory by some". One of which is the "slightly derogatory" one, but unfortunately Google Books isn't letting me see the other two... Jpatokal (talk) 21:45, 11 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

First two sentences

The first sentence says: "Gaijin (外人, [ɡaidʑiɴ]) is a Japanese word meaning "non-Japanese", or "alien".[1] This word is a short form of がいこくじん【外国人】(translation: Gaikokujin), which means foreign people.[citation needed]". There are numerous problems here:

  1. The meaning is wrong. Essentially all Japanese dictionaries show two distinct senses:
    1. one who is not a friend; an outsider
    2. one without Japanese citizenship; non-Japanese, an alien.
  2. The citation should be improved to any number of Japanese dictionaries.
  3. The word is not short for 外国人. At best it is only short for 外国人 for one of the two senses.
  4. Gaikokujin is not a translation for 外国人, but is a transliteration.

Regards, Bendono (talk) 09:34, 12 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is gaijin listed as a short-form of gaikokujin in Japanese and Japanese-English dictionaries? Bendono stated that it's not, but having reviewed 20 dictionaries on this matter, I remain unconvinced and respectfully disagree. I will let my research of Japanese and Japanese-English dictionaries on this particular issue speak for itself. It can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Gaijin/Archive_7
The verifiable evidence in dictionary form was not invented by anyone here, but simply reported. I can think of no reason to block its inclusion in this encyclopedia entry when the objective is simply to report what the preponderance of reliable secondary sources state. How we choose to cite all of these sources in the article was always the real concern. I just never had the time to list them all. J Readings (talk) 18:50, 12 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Except for the J-A dictionaries, I own nearly all of those Japanese dictionaries. And none of them say that it an abbreviation. I would assume that you read them, but lets go through one at a time.
  1. がいじん【外人】『名』①．家族、親戚、仲間などのささいの外にいる人。無関係の人。他人。②　外国人。特に、欧米人をいう場合が多い。 --Gaijin. In S. Kobayashi (ed.), Nihon kokugo daijiten (日本国語大辞典), (p. 258, 1st ed., vol. 1). (1943). Tokyo: Shogakukan.
No mention that it is an abbreviation.
【外人】①　仲間以外の人。門人外の人。②　ほかの人。よその人。他人。 --Gaijin. Daikanwa jiten (大漢和辞典), (p. 330, 2nd ed., 3rd pr., vol. 3). (1986). Tokyo: Taishukan shoten.
No mention that it is an abbreviation.
がいじん【外人】①　外国の人。外国人。特に、欧米人をいうことが多い。⇔邦人。「外人客」②　そのことに関係のない人。第三者。「外人もなき所に兵具をととのへ／平家一」 --Gaijin. In A. Matsumura (ed.), Daijirin (大辞林), (p. 397, 9th ed., vol. 1). (1989). Tokyo: Sanseido.
No mention that it is an abbreviation.
  1. がいじん【外人】外国人。異人。Foreigner --Gaijin. In T. Umesao et. al. (eds.), Nihongo Daijiten (日本語大辞典:講談社カラ版), (p. 163, 1st ed., 8th pr., vol. 1). (1990). Tokyo: Kodansha.
No mention that it is an abbreviation.
  1. Gaijin. (外人) n. 外国の人 a foreigner --Gaijin. In Shini Seigi (ed.), Kokugo Sogo Shinjiten (国語総合新辞典), (p. 197, 2nd ed., vol. 1). (1992). Tokyo:
No mention that it is an abbreviation.
  1. がいじん。【外人】[無関係な、よそ者、の意]　外国人。[同化を拒まれている異国人、という意味で使われることが多いので、濫用すべきでない。例、「変な外人」、「外人教師」。 --Gaijin. In T. Yamada (ed.), Shimeikai kokugo jiten (新明解国語辞典), (p. 213, 5th ed., vol. 1). (1997). Tokyo: Sanseido.
No mention that it is an abbreviation.
  1. がいじん。【外人】①　外国人、特に、欧米人をいう。②　仲間以外の人。他人。「外人もなき所に兵具をととのへ」〈平家・一〉【外人部隊】外国人の志願者で編制した傭兵（ようへい）部隊。 --Gaijin. In A. Matsumura (ed.), Daijisen (大辞泉), (p. 437, 1st ed., vol. 1). (1998). Tokyo: Shogakukan.
No mention that it is an abbreviation.
  1. がいじん【外人】①　仲間以外の人。疎遠の人。連理秘抄「外人など上手多からむ座にては」②　敵視すべきな人。平家一「外人もなき所に兵具をととのへ」③　外国人。異人。⇔邦人。 --Gaijin. In I. Shimura (ed.), Kojien (広辞苑), (p. 438, 5th ed., vol. 1). (1998). Tokyo: Iwanami shoten.
No mention that it is an abbreviation.
  1. がいじん【外人】外国人。⇔邦人。 --Gaijin. In M. Nishio et. al. (eds.), Kokugo jiten (国語辞典) , (p. 173, 6th ed., vol. 1). (2000). Tokyo: Iwanami.
No mention that it is an abbreviation.
  1. 【外人】①　外国人。異人。対：邦人。「外人教師」②　局外者。他人。「源平両家の童形たちのおのおのござ候ふに、かやうの外人は然るべからず候」 --Gaijin. In M. Yamaguchi et. al. (eds.), Shinkango jiten (新漢語辞典), (p. 282, 2nd ed., vol. 1). (2000). Tokyo: Iwanami shoten.
No mention that it is an abbreviation.
OK. While hardly an excellent source for linguistic information, lets look at the J<->E dictionaries:
  1. Foreigner. n. 1. 外国人、外人、異人（alien）. 2. 外国の産物、外国製品、外来物、舶来品。３．外国船。 --Foreigner. In J. Stein (ed.), Shogakukan’s Random House English-Japanese Dictionary, (p. 989, 1st ed., vol. 1). (1979). Tokyo: Shogakukan.
No mention that it is an abbreviation.
  1. Gaijin. (外人) n. a foreigner; an alien. --Gaijin. In Koh Masuda (ed.), Kenkyusha’s New Japanese-English Dictionary, (p. 306, 4th ed., 11th impression). (1985). Tokyo: Kenkyushu Ltd.
No mention that it is an abbreviation.
  1. Gaijin. (外人)　n. foreigner, alien. Variant: gaikokujin. --Gaijin. In The Japanese Foundation (ed.), Basic Japanese-English Dictionary, (p. 141, 1st. ed., vol. 1). (1986). Oxford: Oxford University Press.
No mention that it is an abbreviation. Variant does not mean abbreviation.
  1. Foreigner. n. ①　外国人、外人、異人（alien）. ②　外国の物産、外国製品、舶来品。③　【話】よそ者（outsider）. --Foreigner. In T. Konishi et. al. (eds.), Shogakukan’s Progressive English-Japanese Dictionary, (p. 733, 2nd ed., vol. 1). (1987). Tokyo: Shogakukan.
No mention that it is an abbreviation.
  1. Foreigner. Gaikoku’jin外国人; gaijin外人 --Foreigner. In N. Brannen (ed.), the Practical English-Japanese Dictionary, (p. 123, 1st ed., vol. 1). (1991). New York: Weatherhall.
No mention that it is an abbreviation.
  1. Foreigner. n. 外国人 gaikokujin. --Foreigner. In R. Gorin and Y. Okubo (eds.), Collins Shubun English-Japanese Dictionary (p. 197, 1st ed., vol. 1). (1993). Seattle: Harper Collins Publishers & Shubun International Co., Ltd.
No mention that it is an abbreviation.
  1. Gaijin. (外人) n. foreigner. Abbreviation of gaikokujin. --Gaijin. In Shigeru Takebayashi (ed.), The Kenkyusha Romanized Japanese-English Learner’s Pocket Dictionary (p. 73, 1st ed., vol. 1). (1993). Tokyo: Kenkyusha Ltd.
Finally, a single reference. But it is missing one of the two senses given in nearly every Japanese dictionary.
  1. Gaijin, n. 外人 foreigner. --Gaijin. In Seigo Nakao (ed.), Random House Japanese-English/English-Japanese Dictionary (p. 64, 1st ed., vol. 1). (1995). New York: Random House.
No mention that it is an abbreviation.
  1. Foreigner. n. 外国人; 外人 --Foreigner. In Timothy Vance (ed.), Kodansha’s Furigana Japanese Dictionary (Japanese-English/English-Japanese), (p. 227, 1st ed., vol. 1). (1999). Tokyo: Kodansha International Ltd.
No mention that it is an abbreviation.
  1. がいじん。【外人】a foreigner. [⇒がいこくじん] --Gaijin. In T. Watanabe (ed.), Kenkyusha’s New Japanese-English Dictionary, (p. 473, 5th ed., vol. 1). (2003). Tokyo: Kenkyusha.
No mention that it is an abbreviation.
Exactly how did you come to the following conclusion: "They all agree that gaijin is a neutral contraction of gaikokujin in contemporary Japan." Bendono (talk) 22:51, 12 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
All I can say in this astonished reply, is that I'm wondering if every time you read the word 外国人 and [⇒がいこくじん] (with the derivative arrow for gaijin next to it) as well as sometimes the word "variant" in definition of the word 外人 above, you only sought the English word "abbreviation" in order to make an unnecessary argument that it's not a contraction or abbreviation? And yes, as you do acknowledge to your credit, dictionaries also sometimes explicitly use the word "abbreviation", too, that 外人 is just that: a contraction or abbreviation of 外国人, leaving little doubt that this is not my own original research. Whether we choose to call it an abbreviation or a variant or a contraction is of lesser concern to me than the point that it is considered such. J Readings (talk) 01:35, 13 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Incidentally, on this issue of what the noun "variant" means, I consulted a few dictionaries (sigh) and I believe the definition still reinforces the underlying point of discussion. According to dictionary.com, for example, "variant" can be defined as "a different spelling, pronunciation, or form of the same word: 'Vehemency' is a variant of 'vehemence.'" Following this definition, gaijin is a different form of the same word gaikokujin. Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines "variant" as "varying usually slightly from the standard form <variant readings> <variant spellings>." Following this definition, the variant gaijin would be a slightly different form of the standard gaikokujin. Regards, J Readings (talk) 02:09, 13 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You are clearly not understanding the definitions. When it says 外国人, that is a definition for one of the senses of 外人. When it says ⇒がいこくじん, that means to see がいこくじん because it defines that one sense of the word. That does not mean it is an abbreviation for it.
I strongly suggested three years ago to you to consult the second (latest) edition of 日本国語大辞典, which is the Japanese equivalent of the OED. There it gives dates for the earliest citations for usages. I still strongly encourage you and anyone else to consult it. But to summarize it, the earliest citation for 外国人 is 1859. The earliest citation for 外人 is c. 995-999. If 外人 is an abbreviation for 外国人, then the word 外国人 should be attestable before usage of 外人. However, history shows that we must wait well more than 800 years for the word 外国人 to appear. Further, it is clear that early usage of 外人 referred to Japanese, not foreigner nationals, so again 外人 cannot be an abbreviation for 外国人. These two facts clearly show that 外国人 is not and cannot be an abbreviation for 外人. Bendono (talk) 03:39, 13 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps. Perhaps not. However, there are dictionaries and other reliable sources that clearly state that it is an abbreviation or a variant of 外国人. You cannot deny and evade that fact, Bendono, which raises issues of source selection. To insist that these reliable sources are wrong, is the equivalent of insisting that the word "derogatory" be removed from the text completely because only a very small selection of sources state it (and in a very qualified manner, too). The impression I get from reading your arguments is that we should selectively choose which definitions of the word we place in the Encyclopedia article based on an unclear (and possibly original) source-selection criteria. That's why, I suspect, nothing was ever accomplished on this issue. Speaking only for myself, I wasn't comfortable with it then. I'm not comfortable with it now. J Readings (talk) 11:58, 13 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
However, there are dictionaries and other reliable sources that clearly state that it is an abbreviation or a variant of 外国人. You cannot deny and evade that fact, Bendono, which raises issues of source selection. I'm not Bendono and I'd like to think that I'm neither "in denial" nor evasive. Indeed, I embrace this fact, if it is indeed a fact. So precisely which are these dictionaries and other reliable sources? (Currently the article -- which I haven't edited in ages -- declares it as fact, but with "citation needed".) -- Hoary (talk) 04:09, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Category: "gaijin" as slur.

I removed the category of gaijin as an ethnic and religious slur for the moment. It's not my intention to offend anyone, but it seems to me that something with such diversity of documented reliable opinion and rich etymological research shouldn't be so easily categorized as necessarily a "slur" when the reliable sources don't agree on the nature of the word at all. J Readings (talk) 04:00, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I lack sources for this but I think you'll find that it's in the (to my mind) silly lists of allegedly offensive terms that mustn't be uttered on teevee and the like. I do remember seeing an article in Shūkan Kin'yōbi apologizing for its inadvertent use in an earlier issue; I had a good laugh over the solemnity of it all. If I'm right (and again I don't claim to have any evidence), then the guardians of verbal rectitude have determined that it's a slur. This of course doesn't mean that it's actually a slur. (Guardians of verbal rectitude in English are well known to have perpetrated the silliest of fictions. Indeed, that stupid but improbably popular book The Elements of Style, as one example, remains full of them.) Incidentally, I don't see what etymology would have to do with it, unless perhaps the term wore its etymology in its orthography (cf 毛唐). -- Hoary (talk) 04:21, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure that one source regarding the television issue determines that the word gaijin is a slur; it documents that (for whatever legal reason) the author states that television producers avoid its use (with no explanation as to why it's avoided if the source is carefully read.) In any case, I still have a difficult time following how the word can be definitely categorized as a "slur" in this encyclopedia article when the secondary sources in the article disagree. Incidentally, etymology aside (that was a bad choice of words on my part), when last I checked a year ago, the word 毛唐 was usually labeled as derogatory in dictionaries, encyclopedias, and articles, so I wouldn't necessarily question the label in that instance. However, that is not the case for the word gaijin. J Readings (talk) 18:28, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ がいじん【外人】(translation: Gaijin). Retrieved 2008-09-12.
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