Talk:New World Order conspiracy theory

To become a Featured Article

New World Order (conspiracy theory) is a good article that is being improved by supporters of WikiProject Rational Skepticism, which seeks to improve the quality of articles dealing with counterknowledge. Therefore, although remaining neutral, this article will be written from a rational skeptical perspective. Like its name suggests, this article isn't about “new world order” as a paradigm shift in international relations (if you are interested in that subject, I suggest you read and possibly edit the new world order (politics) article instead). It's about conspiracy theories about a “New World Order”. By “conspiracy theory”, we mean any “a belief which explains an event as the result of a secret plot by exceptionally powerful and cunning conspirators to achieve a malevolent end”. Conspiracy theories are viewed with skepticism because they contrast with institutional analysis of historical or current events, and are rarely supported by conclusive evidence.

Wikipedia's policy on neutral point of view gets misinterpreted to mean neutral to all sides of an issue. In actuality, we only represent viewpoints published by reliable sources and in proportion to the number of reliable sources that express this view. If the majority of reliable sources on a topic are critically positive or negative, then Wikipedia should accurately reflect this viewpoint. Furthermore, the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth — what counts is whether readers can verify that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true.

That being said, in order for the article to be chosen by the Wikipedia community to become a feature article, I am interested in collaborating with anyone who has created a user account well-written, comprehensive, factually accurate, neutral and stable enough to meet featured article criteria. Creating a user account is extremely useful for an editor (such as giving him or her the ability to more easily watch over pages he or she is interested in) but it also contributes to a culture of relative accountability on Wikipedia. Lastly, as this article gets closer to becoming a featured article, it will most probably become a target for vandalism by anonymous cranks so an administrator will have to semi-protect it to prevent them from editing it, which means even good anonymous editors won't be able to edit it either. --Loremaster (talk) 01:16, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

External links

From the Wikipedia:External links guidelines page:

Wikipedia articles may include links to web pages outside Wikipedia, but they should not normally be used in the body of an article. They must conform to certain formatting restrictions. Such pages could contain further research that is accurate and on-topic, information that could not be added to the article for reasons such as copyright or amount of detail, or other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article for reasons unrelated to its accuracy.

Some external links are welcome, but it is not Wikipedia's purpose to include a comprehensive list of external links related to each topic. No page should be linked from a Wikipedia article unless its inclusion is justifiable.

What should be linked

1. Wikipedia articles about any organization, person, web site, or other entity should link to the subject's official site, if any. The official site should typically be listed first.
2. An article about a book, a musical score, or some other media should link to a site hosting a copy of the work if none of the "Links normally to be avoided" criteria apply.
3. Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to copyright issues, amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks) or other reasons.

--Loremaster (talk) 18:11, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Internal links

I have restored the internal links to articles which deal with the various subsections of this article in more detail. No reason, valid or otherwise, has been given for removing these links. Edward321 (talk) 14:35, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

template {{main}} is not appropriate in this context. That template is used when the section is an exact WP:SUMMARY of the main article. These sections instead deal (or should deal) only with the topic in relation to NWO. In these cases, it is instead appropriate to simply link to the topic within the first sentence of the section. -Verdatum (talk) 16:12, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Verdatum which is the reason I have and will continue to remove these internal links. --Loremaster (talk) 21:14, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Literature

I have done some research on literature on the topic lately. Even though I have not yet read all these texts, I though I might just suggest them for review and possibly inclusion into the article. Also, I think it would be a good idea to have a list of scientific literature about this topic as well, not only primary sources by conspiracists.

• Parish, Jane (ed.): The Age of Anxiety. Conspiracy Theory and the Human Sciences, Oxford 2001.

In this book: Alasdair Spark: "Conjuring Order: the new world order and conspiracy theories of globalization", 46-62, Nigel James: "Militias, the Patriot movement, and the internet: the ideology of conspiracism."

• West, Harry G & Sanders, Todd (eds.): Transparency and Conspiracy. Ethnographies of Suspicion in the New World Order, Durham and London 2003.

In this book: West and Sanders: "Introduction", 1-37, Daniel Hellinger: "Paranoia, Conspiracy, and Hegemony in American Politics", 204-232, Susie Harding and Kathleen Stewart: "Anxieties of Influence: Conspiracy Theory and Therapeutic Culture in Millenial America", 258-286, Jean Comarof and John Comaroff: "Transparent Fictions; or, The Conspiracies of a Liberal Imagination: An Afterword", 287-300.

The may also be bits on NWO in

• Fenster, Mark: Conspiracy Theory. Secrecy and Power in American Culture, Minneapolis 2008,

as well as in

• Goldberg, Robert Alan: Enemy Within. The Culture of Conspiracy in Modern America, New Haven, London 2001.

Chapters 5 and 6 of Rupert, Mark: Ideologies of Globalization. Contending visions of a New World Order, London, New York 2000, may give hints towards the spread of conspiracism.

There also are an entries on the New World order in Landes, Richard A (ed.): Encyclopedia of Millennialism and Millenial Movements, London, New York 2000 and in Knight, Peter: Conspiracy Theories in American History. An Encyclopedia, Santa Barbara, Denver, Oxford 2003.

I thought I'd just put that up here. As soon as I get to read these in depth, I hope to be able to contribute. Maybe others take an interest in some of these texts. If they are not always suited for this article, I guess they are still relevant for adjacent ones, like conspiracism, for example. 78.55.218.66 (talk) 06:27, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you User:78.55.218.66. Those are very good sources. If you intend on contributing directly to the article at some point, I suggest you create a user account since it is extremely useful for an editor (such as giving him the ability to more easily watch over pages he is interested in) but it also contributes to a culture of accountability on Wikipedia. Despite the fact you will probably use a pseudonym, it's easier for other editors to discern your motivations when a track record of contributions is attached to your user account. Lastly, as this article gets closer to becoming a featured article, it will most probably become a target for vandalism by cranks so an administrator will have to put a semi-protection on it which will prevent them as well as good anonymous contributors such yourself from editing it. So seriously think about it. --Loremaster (talk) 15:28, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Freemasonry

Freemasonry and Politics

In some countries, like in France (where the list of 19th century members of Chamber of Deputies who were also members of the Grand Orient remains secret to this very day, and where disclosure is resisted despite several attempts to have it exposed), Freemasonry was all about politics - generalisation about Freemasonry is impossible. A summary of this extremely wide and diverse subject matter cannot be condensed into a couple of paragraphs. There is no "broad outlook" of Freemasonry, if Freemasonry happens to be different things in different countries. Which it is. Lung salad (talk) 13:09, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

[1]Lung salad (talk) 13:40, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

The website globalsecurity.org needs to be dealt with case by case, and this is an unsigned, unreferenced article which doesn't meet our criteria for reliable sources so far as I can see. Dougweller (talk) 14:22, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Remember that reliability often depends on context. I would agree that the website in question is not reliable for a blunt statement of fact about Freemasons (stating that "X is true about Freemasonry"), but it might well be reliable for an attributed statement as to what someone believes about Freemasonry (saying: "Adherents/Critics of the NWO conspiracy theory claim/believe that X is true about Freemasonry"). Blueboar (talk) 16:17, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

But we still have to establish the notability of that person. A paranoid conspiracy theorist is only notable if scholarship and news organizations deem him notable. --Loremaster (talk) 18:35, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Mostly I agree... my exception is when something as a genre is notable... I think it acceptable for us to choose a few websites/authors as being representative of that notable genre, even if the individual behind it isn't notable on their own. Obviously the ideal would be to find a notable representative of the notable genre... but that is not always possible. Blueboar (talk) 01:52, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. Wikipedia should not be raising the profile of an obscure representative of a notable genre if scholarship and news organizations haven't already. If we cannot find a notable representative, we simply don't mention one. --Loremaster (talk) 01:58, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Lung salad, whether or not you think generalization about Freemasonry (or any subject) is impossible, you need to understand and accept that we can and should report the generalizations about Freemasonry made by notable mainstream scholars and journalists... unless one can find a more reliable source that contradicts this generalization. Regarding the claims found in the Freemasonry section about Freemasonry not being political, you need to understand that we are reporting the standard rebuttal of Freemasons when they are accused of engaging in crypto-politics. The fact that you can find a multitude of Masonic Lodges in different countries and throughout history that were political doesn't change the standard rebuttal Freemasons choose to use. That being said, no one is arguing that politicians don't join Masonic Lodges, it is simply argued that there is no (or there isn't suppose to be) discussion of politics (or religion) in Masonic Lodges.

Regarding your source, I suggest you familiarize yourself with Wikipedia's guidelines on how to identify reliable sources.

--Loremaster (talk) 16:31, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Reliable sources on Grand Orient Freemasonry being involved with the Chamber of Deputies - there's tons of it. Admittedly it's all in French. And then there's the dissolution of Grand Orient Freemasonry by Petain, that resulted in Right-Wing Neo-Freemasonic groups calling themselves Grand Occident that were Monarchist in nature springing up and paved the way for the creation of Action Francaise and other right-wing fascist groups. This is all bonafide ordinary history, not "conspiracy theory". As for condemning websites, let's not condemn the factual historical content contained therein. Lung salad (talk) 00:30, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

*sigh* Freemasons asserting that a long-standing rule within regular Freemasonry is a prohibition on the discussion of politics and religion in a Masonic lodge and the participation of lodges or Masonic bodies in political pursuits is not incompatible with the fact that members of the Grand Orient Freemasonry being involved with the Chamber of Deputies in France or anywhere else. Furthermore, as I said before when we had this conversation many weeks/months ago, we are reporting an assertion made by Freemasons when they are accused of engaging in political conspiracies. Whether or not this assertion is true or contradicted by some facts specific to a country and time period is irrelevant. Ultimately, the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth — what counts is whether readers can verify that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true. --Loremaster (talk) 03:19, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Freemasonry is part of the curriculum in the History of the Third French Republic, and this connection is to do with ordinary everyday history and not with "conspiracy theory". No verifiability? This is a joke. I will collect verifiable sources. There are many of them. If reference is going to be made that Freemasonry denies political activity, reference is therefore going to be made that Freemasonry does engage in political activity despite its declaration. That's neutral point of view, anything else is POV and against Wikipedia guidelines Lung salad (talk) 22:55, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure how many times I'm gonna have to explain this, but the fact that you can find an example of Freemasonry being political in a specific country during a specific time period doesn't change the fact a prominent Masonic apologist has chosen to respond to accusations of Masonic political conspiracy by arguing that a long-standing rule within regular Freemasonry is a prohibition on the discussion of politics and religion in a Masonic lodge and the participation of lodges or Masonic bodies in political pursuits. Wikipedia's guidelines regarding neutral point of view is irrelevant since we have a duty to report what a source says regardless of whether or not it is true. That being said, to resolve this dispute, I edited the disputed sentence to say “regular Anglo-American Freemasonry”. --Loremaster (talk) 21:00, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

I know what you want, you want to insert a sentence "Freemasonry has nothing to do with politics" without including the fact that Freemasonry 'was' involved in politics, no matter how scholarly the source may be. Leaving out that latter point woould be POV, and would be in violation of Wikipedia Neutral Point of View. And every time that you include that word "understand" in a message to me it will be deemed as harrasment - because it is quite evident that it is you that does not "understand". To clarify the matter, French Freemasonry did not have any statement in its constitutions about politics, but at the same time it played a vital role in the creation of the Third Republic. Got that? Lung salad (talk) 10:24, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Wasn't Grand Orient Freemasonry said to be controlled by Jewish interests? Wasn't the involvement by Grand Orient Freemasonry in French politics and anti-clerical legislation in particular a powerful ingredient in the development of Freemasonry being creator of a New World Order? And in the escalation of Anti-Semitism? Isn't there a considerable amount of literature about this New World Order Conspiracy Theory? Have you checked this out? Lung salad (talk) 11:03, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

The sentence was edited to clarify that Masonic apologists are only talking about Anglo-American Freemasonry so there is no need to talk about French Freemasonry's role in the Third Republic. Although you should be mindful that the Freemasony section of the article focuses on New World Order conspiracies implicating American Freemasons, please provide us with a reliable source for the claim that French Freemasonry being controlled by Jewish interests and playing a role in anti-clerial legistlation was a factor in development of New World Order conspiracy theories implicating Freemasons. --Loremaster (talk) 12:04, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Oh I know about the clarification and the edit to suit your POV opinion. And Grand Orient Freemasonry is part of New World Order Conspiracy Theory because it was viewed as the World Jewish Threat by those Catholics who were on the receiving end of the anti-clerical laws that the Grand Orient supported, and keeps an eye on things today to have it maintained.Lung salad (talk) 13:35, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

For Italy, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alta_Vendita Lung salad (talk) 14:21, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Another reference, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Orient_Freemasonry_Unmasked_as_the_Secret_Power_Behind_Communism Lung salad (talk) 14:23, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't know much about Freemasonry, the conspiracy theories that implicate it, or anything about its political involvement or its stance on political discourse within its activities. However, it seems to me Lung Salad, that you wish to counter the sources that claim Freemasonry denies political involvement, by offering a source that demonstrates political involvement. Even with that being reliably sourced, I still think that you need a reliable secondary source that pits those two ideas against one another (a source that evaluates Freemasonry's claims of no involvement against evidence of involvement). In other words, what you are suggesting may indeed be valid, I think it treads on the border of synthesis maybe? I'm not entirely sure. We're not supposed to write things in an evaluative or comparative way though unless a secondary source does so. I'm trying to understand if this is the crux of Loremaster's objection to your suggested edits. John Shandy` • talk 14:51, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia should show that Anglo-American Freemasonry was free from politics 'AND' present the fact that Freemasonry was actively engaged in politics in countries like France, Italy and Spain, especially since this involved Conspiracy Theory of the relevant periods, and since in countries like France and Italy where Freemasonry was deemed to be in league with Judaism, being a continuation of the Protocols conspiracy, depicted in artwork where the Symbol of the Star of David represented Freemasonry. That was how anti-masonic and anti-jewish groups started in Vichy France, when Petain proscribed Grand Orient in 1941. This article is about New World Order, and to exclude this topic from this article would be like excluding Neil Armstrong from discussing the first NASA manned lunar landing.Lung salad (talk) 15:49, 2 September 2011 (UTC) Lung salad (talk) 15:50, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Putting aside the fact that Lung salad is trying to counter an argument that has been edited to better reflect what the source meant (the author is a Canadian Mason talking about Anglo-American Freemasonry) thereby making his counter-argument unnecessary, he needs to seek consensus for his suggested changes BEFORE making them, especially in the light of the fact that his last edits (which I reverted) are ignoring the logic of the last two paragraphs of the Freemasony section of the article, which focuses on the most common Masonic apology against accusation of Masonic political conspiracy found in the first three paragraphs. Furthermore, even when he finds reliable sources, he writes sentences that do not accurately reflect what these sources state. --Loremaster (talk) 19:19, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Henry Coston and Nesta Webster are two good sources. Lung salad (talk) 15:53, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

There are links to this Wikipedia article from [2] and [3] so let's include references to those documents and what those documents are about - New World Order. The last two paragraphs to the portion about Freemasonry need to be amended and revised since they are far from conclusive endnotes to the subject matter, and I have added mention of the two documents. Lung salad (talk) 16:08, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

1. Henry Coston and Nesta Webster are conspiracy theorists. Their books are not reliable sources for statements of facts nor should we interpret what they say. We can only mention their opinions through the commentary of notable mainstream scholars and journalists who discuss the conspiracy theories of Henry Coston and Nesta Webster.
2. I've explained in a section below that the last two paragraphs should not be edited to add content that should be in the first three paragraphs. --Loremaster (talk) 23:44, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Freemasonry and Taxil hoax

Is there a reason why we do not even mention the Taxil hoax in the section on Freemasonry? The claims that Taxil put forth during his hoax are still being repeated (as fact) by NWO conspiracy theorists today. Despite the fact that Taxil admitted that his claims were all a hoax, they were (and are) believed and repeated by numerous conspiracy theorists, and had a huge influence on subsequent anti-masonic claims about Freemasonry. It should be mentioned. Blueboar (talk) 12:34, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

We did mention it in the past or, at the very least, a sentence had a word linked to the Taxil hoax article. However, it was lost during the re-writing of the Freemasonry section. That being said, we need to find a reliable source (notable maintream scholar and journalist) which explicitly states that many NWO conspiracy theorists repeat as fact the claims put forth by Taxil and/or that the Taxil hoax had a huge influence on subsequent anti-Masonic conspiracy theories. --Loremaster (talk) 16:30, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

I would suggest "Is it true what they say about Freemasonry?" by Art DeHoyos and S. Brent Morris. It goes into this extensively. Blueboar (talk) 22:50, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Can you quote here the parts about NWO conspiracy theorists? --Loremaster (talk) 02:39, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

There is an on-line edition here... the latter part of Chapter One contains a long list of authors who have repeated the Taxil claims. Blueboar (talk) 11:09, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Good. When I finish reading this, I'll think of the best way to integrate this claim. --Loremaster (talk) 21:16, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Done. --Loremaster (talk) 17:34, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Robison's influence on anti-masonry in the 1800s

While Chip Berlet may contend that John Robison's reactionary conspiracy theories produced/contributed to outbreaks of Protestant anti-Masonry in the United States during the 1800s, I think most historians would disagree. What really caused the wave of (mostly) Protestant anti-Masonic hysteria in the 1830s was the William Morgan Affair. Robison's theories really had little impact on that. In fact, I can not think of a single historian who, in writing about the Morgan Affair and the rise of the Anti-Masonic Party, even mentions Robison as an influence or factor. I think we should find a second source to corroborate what Berlet contends. He is a journalist after all, and not a historian, and he may be giving more weight to Robison than is warranted. Blueboar (talk) 11:51, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

It's not necessarily Chip Berlet's opinion. He seems to be reporting a statement from historian David H. Bennett 's book The Party Of Fear: The American Far Right from Nativism to the Militia Movement, which is considered one of the most comprehensive works covering right-wing movements in the United States since colonial times. That's the reason why I have reverted your edits when you attributed this statement to Berlet. That being said, I edited the sentence to use the word “influenced” you had first suggested. --Loremaster (talk) 20:47, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Ah... that is different (this was not clear from the citation). Would I be correct in thinking that the reason we cite Chip Berlet, and not David Bennet, is WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT? I think it would be better to get a copy of Bennet's book, and cite that directly. A respected historian is a better source than a journalist. Blueboar (talk) 21:09, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Although Berlet is being used as source for his work as a political analyst rather than a journalist, I have no problem with using Bennet as a source. Since you're a librarian, it might be easier for you to get your hands on a copy more quickly. --Loremaster (talk) 21:15, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm not a librarian... I am a historian (I run a Historical Society that, in part, focuses on Freemasonry)... but I do have relatively easy access to one of the better Masonic libraries in the country (the Livingston Library, run by the Grand Lodge of New York)... I'll see if they have a copy. Blueboar (talk) 21:42, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

OK. --Loremaster (talk) 23:27, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the Livingston Library does not have a copy in their collection. We will have to obtain a copy another way. Blueboar (talk) 12:50, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

OK. --Loremaster (talk) 15:38, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Freemasonry and politics - neutral point of view

If it is to be cited that Freemasonry proclaims that it is not political, then it should also be cited that Freemasonry is political in nature, and is involved in politics. Neutral Point of View needs to be established in the article - one example how French Grand Orient Freemasonry is political in France:

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2860

Meanwhile, Sarkozy is considering amending the 1905 law separating Church and State. On Tuesday I referred to an interview conducted by Libération with Jean-Michel Quillardet, the grand master of the anti-Christian Grand Orient of France, the first Masonic lodge of France, who expressed his fears that the 1905 law would be in some way amended in favor of religion. As it turns out, guess who Sarkozy has appointed to modify the law? None other than Quillardet himself! This report is from E-Deo:

Jean-Michel Quillardet, Grand Master of the Grand Orient, visited the French president last Tuesday. After the meeting he expressed his relief and his satisfaction, assuring the press that the president was committed to leaving untouched the 1905 law separating Church and State except for a “few technical changes.” […]

[A]fter his interview with Jean-Michel Quillardet, Nicolas Sarkozy promised to visit the headquarters of the Grand Orient to acquaint himself with the principal doctrines of French masonic thought.

Lung salad (talk) 00:18, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm certain this is a reliable source [4] Lung salad (talk) 00:38, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

The Freemasonry section of the article is NOT about the nature and history of Freemasonry but about accusations made by New World Order conspiracy theorists against Freemasonry and how Freemasons respond to these charges so, as I said before when we had this conversation many weeks/months ago and recently in a discussion thread above, we are reporting an assertion made by Freemasons when they are accused of engaging in political conspiracies. Whether or not this assertion is true or contradicted by some facts specific to a country and time period is irrelevant. Ultimately, the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth — what counts is whether readers can verify that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true. That being said, I'm not opposed to adding content from a reliable source that explicity counters the argument made by Freemasons by saying something like: “although Freemasons argue that Freemasonry is apolitical, there are numerous examples that prove the contrary, such as in France...” What you have presented so far doesn't do that. --Loremaster (talk) 03:19, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

The part about Freemasonry not being interested in politics is laughable, and should be removed. Scholarly Citations have been provided about French Freemasonry's role in the Third Republic.Lung salad (talk)

The sentence was edited to clarify that Masonic apologists are only talking about Anglo-American Freemasonry so there is no need to talk about French Freemasonry's role in the Third Republic. --Loremaster (talk) 11:57, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Except that French Freemasonry is a vital ingredient in the subject matter of New World Order, and a new subheading can be introduced to include this. Lung salad (talk) 13:32, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't think a new subheading is necessary and it really depends what reliable sources have to say on the subject. --Loremaster (talk) 19:14, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Please explain why you consider the essays by M. L. McIsaac and Hamon & Hamon as unreliable sources on the history of Grand Orient Masonry and the Third French Republic. Lung salad (talk) 22:39, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Reliable sources have been provided. Grand Orient was part of French politics and was accused of being part of New World Order conspiracy as a result of this. Grand Orient Freemasonry supported the policies of the Third Republic in its Annual Conferences and reliable sources of the period can be cited. Lung salad (talk) 16:13, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

1. One thing you need to accept is that just because you found what you think is a reliable source for content you want to add in article it doesn't mean that it should or has to be added in an article.
2. When someone reverts your edits, regardless of whether or not these edits involveadding content based on what you think is a reliable source, you need to seek consensus on this talk page through discussion and resolve the dispute before you restore your edits or make new ones. Just mentioning that you have reliable sources and restoring your reverted edits before anyone responds isn't enough nor it is appropriate. Even if it takes a day or a week before someone responds, you need to wait.
3. Correct me if I'm wrong but your sources do not specifically mention the New World Order and/or one world government conspiracy

--Loremaster (talk) 23:39, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

You have failed again to explain why you consider the reliable sources as provided to be "unreliable" - is it just because you "don't like them" - is that the reason? You need to provide something better than that. The Jews to the antisemites were regarded as the big threat, and instigators and masters of the forthcoming New World Order. Both by French and German Nazis, and their suspected involvement in Freemasonry was part of that perception. Lung salad (talk) 23:48, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

1. The work of a conspiracy theorist is obviously not a reliable source. You need to cite a notable scholar/journalist who discusses the work of a conspiracy theorist.
2. Just because you are adding content that is based on a reliable source it doesn't mean that this content is relevant or fits where you put it.
3. The problem isn't always the reliability of the source but the accuracy of your interpretation of content found in the source. You often write/edit sentences to says things that the source doesn't.
4. I am well aware that Jews were regarded as the ultimate conspirators since I mention them in several sections of the article.
5. You need to understand the logic and structure of some sections and the fact that we need to be mindful not to make this article longer than it already is.

--Loremaster (talk) 00:07, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Disputed content

Why should the inclusion of non-Anglo and non-American Freemasonry be disputed material? Why can't material on Freemasonry found in other Wikipedia articles not be included in this article? Why can't the Grand Orient of France be mentioned in this article? Why should these additions be regarded as disputed? Any answers? Anyone? Lung salad (talk) 20:03, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

The header to the discussion page reads: "Please be neutral when editing this highly sensitive article. It discusses a topic about which people have diverse opinions."

I have added another scholarly source giving evidence that the Grand Orient was involved in politics with the French Third Republic. And I can continue providing similar sources.

The Political Situation in France by A. Hamon, H. Hamon, [The American Journal of Sociology, Vol. 11, No. 1 (Jul., 1905), pp. 107-128]

"Every year the Radical and Socialist Radical parties hold a general congress, where all the delegates of the groups that follow Radicalism meet. Frequently these groups are electoral committees which live only during the period of the election. They have but a small number of members, and sometimes the delegate appoints himself. The Radical and Socialist Radical congress appoints from among its members an executive committee. Recently the president of this committee was M. Bertaux, a deputy who served as minister of war in the Combes cabinet [Emile Combes: Prime Minister of France 1902-5; who was also a Freemason and a Spiritualist]. Its president is now Jean Bourrat, a deputy. The difference between the Socialist Radicals and the Radicals lies in the varying degree of emphasis which they place upon democratic reform.

As we have already seen, French conservatism has a live organ in the "Third Order". Radicalism possesses a similar organ in Freemasonry, represented especially by the "Grand Orient of France". It is difficult to ascertain the numbers in this secret association. It is known that they are divided into lodges, each of which has a president, who is styled "Venerable", and several other officers. There may be several lodges in the same town, according to its importance. The Freemasons of the Grand Orient of France hold an annual convention. Though secret, this convention was freely discussed in the press this year. It appoints a permanent council, which is charged with the direction of French Masonic affairs. This council is called the "Council of Order". Its president is M. Lafferre, a deputy and a barrister. Besides the Grand Orient of France, and in friendly relations with it, there are the "Grand Lodge of France" and the "Supreme Council" for France and its dependencies. These constitute what is commonly called the "Scottish Rite". It appears that the influence of the Scottish Rite Masons is less than that of the Grand Orient, whose lodges cover the whole country.

Republicans of all shades of opinion live harmoniously side by side in these Masonic lodges. M. Bonnet, the orator of the last convention, said in his speech, as reported by the newspapers: "We are the only association - and we are proud and happy to say so - where moderate but true Republicans, Radicals, Socialists, and Libertarians discusss together all the political, economic, and social problems." It seems, however, from what is known in the lodges, that the great majority of Freemasons are Radicals, with a Socialist minority in Paris, Marseilles, and other large cities. As for Libertarians and Anarchists, their number is very small.

The tendencies and program of Freemasonry may be considered as those of the Radical and Socialist Radical parties. The Grand Orient of France is unanimously anti-clerical. Its members one and all demand the seperation of church and state. Once this goal has been attained - and it has the first place upon its program - it will work for the political "purification" of the state functionaries; that is, the appointment to government positions of such persons only as have proved themselves to be good republicans. It desires a state monopoly of all elementary instruction, thus completely debarring the clergy from teaching. It favours laws increasing the liberty of citizens with respect to divorce, the press, etc. It advocates democratic legislation, improving the condition of the working classes in city and country, making taxes weigh more heavily upon the rich than upon the poor, providing for old-age pensions, introducing an inheritance and an income tax, fixing a weekly holiday, etc. Aside from the question of the seperation of church and state, and the destruction of the last remnant of the political power of the church, the Freemasons are, however, not entirely agreed on all of these points, some favoring a more thoroughgoing scheme of democratic reform than others."

Lung salad (talk) 21:30, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

1. The Freemasonry section of the New World Order (conspiracy theory) article is not and should not be about very single details concerning the history of Freemasonry and anti-Masonry. It is about specific accusations made by New World Order conspiracy theorists against Freemasonry and how Freemasons and/or non-Masonic skeptics respond to these charges. The first three paragraph focus on the former while the last two paragraphs focus on the latter.
2. The last two paragraphs shouldn't be filled with content that should be in the first three paragraphs unless it is clear that is based on a reliable source that is directly responding to an argument made by the Masonic apologist. In other words, you need to find a source that explicitly says “Freemasons defend themselves by arguing XYZ but here is evidence that contradicts their argument”.
3. The source we are using as a source for an apology of Freemasonry is a Canadian Mason talking about Anglo-American Freemasonry. Facts about French Freemasonry are irrelevant here.
4. The Freemasonry section focuses on New World Order conspiracy theories implicating American Freemasons. Although I'm not opposed to expanding this section to have a more international point of view, we need to focus on what reliable sources on the subject of New World Order conspiracism focus on.
5. The role of Freemasonry in the politics of the Third Republic of France is irrelevant to this section unless we have a reliable source that specifically and explicitly mentions that this historical fact was influential in the development of New World Order conspiracy theories.
6. Not all conspiracy theories implicating Freemasons are about the New World Order and/or one world government.
7. You cannot edit sentences that are already referenced to reliable sources to say something he/she didn't say or didn't mean just to set up a counter-argument you want to add.

--Loremaster (talk) 23:28, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Very well then, another subheading to this article entitled "Grand Orient Freemasonry" can be created to deal with that aspect of New World Order conspiracy theory - this is also relevant since it involved anti-semitism that led to the extermination of 6 million Jews (Vichy France were grateful to the Nazis for ridding it of its Jews). There is therefore no longer any need for a reference to P2 in your verdict on Anglo-American Freemasonry, since that is Italian masonry. The Grand Orient Freemasonry needs to be addressed since Wikipedia has dealt with The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and Edouard Drumont and both of these subject matters deal with Masonry, Conspiracy theories and Anti-semitism. Lung salad (talk) 23:39, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

1. We can integrate content about New World Order conspiracy theories involving Grand Orient Freemasonry in a new paragraph without creating a new subheading.
2. Some branches of Freemasonry being involved in politics and Freemasonry as a whole (or Anglo-American Freemasonry in particular) having a hidden political agenda is not the same thing. The former is perfectly legitimate while the latter is sinister.
3. As I said explained to you many times before, regardless of what you consider to be contradictory facts, Freemasons are entitled to argue whatever they want so the reference to PS stays.
4. I am reverting your edits and I suggest you present your changes here (so we can see what they would like and discuss them) before editing the article further.

--Loremaster (talk) 23:52, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

If it's a section specifically about ANGLO-AMERICAN Freemasonry, then that needs to be highlighted in both the subheading and in the text, with the reference to P2 removed, and I have done that. There are references that P2 was and is a political masonic movement - and if P2 is to be mentioned, citations need to be included that it is regarded as a political masonic movement. Lung salad (talk) 04:53, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

This is an objective and Neutral Point of View Wikipedia article, personal objections to mentioning links between Freemasonry and politics should not be allowed to hinder the quality of content of this article. Lung salad (talk) 05:24, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Freemasonry affairs within politics is a world reality and the subject matter should not be suppressed on Wikipedia. Not in this article nor in any other Wikipedia article. There is no reason to discuss this subject matter here if the discussion is being used as part of a censorship agenda procedure by Wikipedia editors who wish to introduce censorship on Wikipedia. Lung salad (talk) 05:52, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Whether not or we decide to include your suggested changes, can you PLEASE discuss them here and wait for a consensus to emerge before editing the article again? Is that really too much to ask? --Loremaster (talk) 16:53, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Except that you do not participate in discussion - what you do is put your edits on the article and then delete any edits that you do not agree with - then say "please discuss until a consensus is reached" - and you do not discuss. You just keep deleting other people's edits all the time without discussing, behaving like you were the final arbiter of Wikipedia articles. Lung salad (talk) 17:12, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Question to Lung salad... I completely agree that the Grand Orient style Freemasonry has been (and continues to be) heavily involved in politics ... but... what does this involvement have to do with the New World Order conspiracy theory? Blueboar (talk) 18:22, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

The article is New World Conspiracy Theory and Judaism was suspected of starting a New World Order based on collaboration with Freemasonry. The inclusion of Grand Orient Masonry is justified in this respect. Without this there would not have been conspiracy theorists like Drumont and Coston. Lung salad (talk) 18:32, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Why not? Blueboar (talk) 18:43, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Because Drumont and Coston objected to what Grand Orient Freemasonry had become - non-Catholic and steeped in secular philosophy, blaming it all on Jewish infliltration of the lodges. Lung salad (talk) 18:49, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

When I reverted your edits, I was at work so I didn't have the time to discuss but I did tell you that I would explain myself later that day or the day after. However, you seem so obsessed with (clumsily) adding your content in the article that you are incapable of being patient enough to simply wait a few hours or a day or two for me to come back here and explain my objections, which I did. That being said, my suggestion was simple: Rather than editing the article, write your proposed new version of the Freemasonry section here on this talk so that we can discuss it, possibly makes changes, and form a consensus. Currently, the Grand Orient section you have created is a nightmare of superfluous content about the history of French Freemasonry that should not be in this article. Ultimately, please remember that just because content come from the most reliable source in the world it doesn't mean it is relevant and that it should be included in this article. --Loremaster (talk) 18:59, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with the added subsection, except perhaps it can contain more material relating to the subject matter of New World Order. The Catholic newspaper La Croix was strongly supportive of Drumont and became the first to review his book La France Juive in 1886. In 1898 the newspaper published the pamphlet Le Complot Juif ("The Jewish Conspiracy") containing the Jewish plan of world domination. The Jews depicted as controllers of the press, the economy, and government, as well as disseminators of revolution and government. Lung salad (talk) 19:16, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

The entire subsection should be deleted since it doesn't respect the logic of the Conspiracy theories section of the article, which consists of reporting New World Order conspiracy theories involving a particular group followed by criticisms by skeptics which debunks these conspiracy theories. However, some of it's content can and should be integrated in the original Freemasonry section of the article, while the paragraphs dealing with Masonic apologetics should be edited to remove statements that only apply to Anglo-American Freemasonry and replace them with statements that apply to both Anglo-American and Continental Freemasonry. Could this proposed compromise work for you? --Loremaster (talk) 01:39, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

If the above subsection is to do with the Anglo/American Freemasonry then what is the reference to Italian P2 doing there? Where is the logic in that nonsense? Perhaps you stuck that in to underpin your POV that Freemasonry has never been involved in politics, and any such belief demonstrates adherence to some "conspiracy theory"? You're the last person on Wikipedia to preach about logic. Lung salad (talk) 20:13, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

For the record, I've always known that some branches of Freemasonry were involved in politics! You seem to forget that in late June I had a huge debate with Blue Boar and you over my intent to add content in the article (based on Margaret C. Jacob's 1991 book Living the Enlightenment: Freemasonry and Politics in Eighteenth-Century Europe) which would have specifically stated that, in Continental Europe, Freemasons became involved in politics in order to create a moral and social order based upon reason and virtue, and dedicated to the principles of liberty and equality. This line would have help explained why reactionary conspiracy theorists became obsessed with Freemasonry. However, a consensus formed against my intent and the content was deleted.

As for the specific reference to the Italian P2, it was mentioned because many conspiracy theorists point to it as proof that Freemasonry has a hidden political agenda but the Masonic researcher argues that this lodge is Italian therefore not representative of Anglo-American Freemasonry and, more crucially, this lodge was illegal and therefore not truly Masonic so it cannot be used as proof of anything.

That being said, we are reporting an argument made by a Masonic research who writes extensively on anti-Masonic conspiracy theories. Whether or not his argument is true and accurate is irrelevant to whether or not it should included in the article because the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth nor accuracy — what counts is whether readers can verify that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true or accurate. --Loremaster (talk) 01:28, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Oh I see, only YOUR CITATIONS count and nobody else's citations - an author's OPINION matters more than citations that refer to historical facts and to historical events, because a certain author's opinion fits in with your POV - right? Lung salad (talk) 09:39, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

My personal POV is irrelevant. The Freemasonry section would be written quite differently if I was trying to push my POV into it. My point is simply that a Wikipedia article must report both facts and significant opinions we can find in reliable sources. Now, as I suggested in a compromise, I am quite open to adding some of the content you suggested. However, you need to understand that some of the content you suggested, regardless of how well-cited is, is superfluous in a section that is dealing with a specific subject. That being said, you seem to forget something: Although I still disagree with it, I had to accept the consensus in June that all the content I added in the introductory paragraph of the Freemasonry section would be deleted because it was deemed superfluous. So the notion that only my citations count in this article is obvious false. --Loremaster (talk) 13:12, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Page protection

I don't know if my request will be granted, but I've requested page protection to stop the edit warring. Please don't edit right now, work this out here and get consensus. 06:34, 3 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougweller (talk • contribs)

A Wikipedia editor is attempting to censor a subject matter from being included in this article. Also trying to use the Talk Page argument to bring that censorship into effect. I seriously doubt that the Wikipedia editor in question will ever be prepared to accept the subject matter from ever being placed in this article, although it exists in other articles on Wikipedia - and the subject matter is accepted part of historical scholarship. Scholarly citations have been used. The Talk Page has been used to attempt to introduce consensus. It has all failed. Lung salad (talk) 07:39, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

The next stage should be a WP:RFC. Please remember to show good faith, this isn't censorship but a content dispute. Dougweller (talk) 15:35, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

All of Lung salad's September 3 edits should be removed until this dispute is resolved because, besides containing grammatical errors and Wikipedia guidelines violations, are deteriorating the quality of the article. --Loremaster (talk) 16:52, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

I have cited scholarly sources to the edits I have included in the article. I do not see how citing scholarly sources "deteriorate the quality of the article" - unless of course there is material in the article that you want to have censored for some reason. Perhaps now you can finally answer the question why it is you consider that the scholarly sources that I have cited are "unreliable" or even "wrong" (your above comments). Here is the Talk Page. Please discuss. Lung salad (talk) 17:17, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

1. The work of a conspiracy theorist is obviously not a reliable source. You need to cite a notable scholar/journalist who discusses the work of a conspiracy theorist.
2. Just because you are adding content that is based on a reliable source it doesn't mean that this content is relevant or fits where you put it.
3. The problem isn't always the reliability of the source but the accuracy of your interpretation of content found in the source. You often write/edit sentences to says things that the source doesn't.
4. You need to understand the logic and structure of some sections and the fact that we need to be mindful not to make this article longer than it already is.
5. Ultimately, you need to WAIT until the dispute is resolved and consensus has been reached BEFORE editing the article. This isn't my personal wish. It is a Wikipedia guideline that you need to abide by or face consequences.

--Loremaster (talk) 17:46, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

The page is protected, so nothing will be changed during this period (except minor copy editing if requested). I've suggested an RfC, Loremaster, why don't you start one? Dougweller (talk) 17:56, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Doug, it's obvious Loremaster has a problem with accepting the fact that Freemasonic bodies existed that were involved with politics, and there still is no answer to my question "Why were the scholarly citations I used either "wrong" or "unreliable" Lung salad (talk) 18:09, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

I have never had a problem with what I've always acknowledged to be a historical fact. My objection was to a sentence that a misleading synthesis of several sources to say something that didn't say. --Loremaster (talk) 03:15, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

The work of a conspiracy theorist is not a reliable source, yet Loremaster wrote "Scottish physicist John Robison and French Jesuit priest Augustin Barruel, began speculating that the Illuminati survived their suppression and became the masterminds behind the French Revolution and the Reign of Terror" - without referencing any scholarly sources and leaving the reader relying on his say-so. The conspirtacy theorists I cited were referenced to scholarly works. Lung salad (talk) 18:06, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

The sentence is in a paragraph that has always been referenced to Trevor W. McKeown's A Bavarian Illuminati primer. --Loremaster (talk) 03:15, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Loremaster did not engage in discussion last night until AFTER a long edit war. I made some comments on the Talk Page that were ignored because Loremaster was too busy deleting my edits without comment. Let's get things straight. Lung salad (talk) 18:12, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

During the edit war, I explained in one of my edit summaries that I would engage in you in discussion later that day or the next day. You should have simply been patient and waited. That's what most non-fanatical people do. --Loremaster (talk) 03:15, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Points 1,2,3,4, and 5 are all unjustified. The article is New World Conspiracy Theory and Judaism was suspected of starting a New World Order based on collaboration with Freemasonry. The inclusion of Grand Orient Masonry is justified in this respect. Lung salad (talk) 18:19, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

I disagree... the accusation that there was/is a Judeo-Masonic conspiracy does not distinguish between Anglo-American and Franco-European branches of Freemasonry (I often wish it would, but it doesn't). Blueboar (talk) 18:38, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

It did in France, where it was active. And the subsection was originally written to balance the original argument that "Freemasonry had no politics". It was only later amended by Loremaster to refer only to Anglo-American Freemasonry when I pointed out that was not true of all Freemasonry. Lung salad (talk) 18:45, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Do you have a source that says the French proponents of the NWO theory draw (or drew) a distinction between Anglo-American Freemasonry and Franco-continental Freemasonry. If so, then I could see adding something about it. Otherwise, No.

Grand Orient de France was used as an ingredient to promote the Judeo-Masonic World domination theory. Its archives were seized by the Russian army and taken to Moscow after World War 2, and there's a contemporary Eastern European anti-semitic author that has used that material in one of their books. Lung salad (talk) 20:26, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

I think a lot of what you are doing here amounts to an improper synthesis (of the kind that is discussed at WP:NOR)... you seem to be taking two disparate ideas: a) Continental style Freemasonry is involved in politics (and specifically left wing politics), b) Freemasonry has been accused of being part of a Judeo-Masonic conspiracy... and reaching the conclusion that c) these two things are connected and have something to do with the NWO conspiracy theory. You can source statements a and b... but you need a source for the conclusion c. Do such sources exist? Blueboar (talk) 17:18, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

The entire Freemasonry (Grand Orient) subsection should be deleted since it doesn't respect the logic of the Conspiracy theories section of the article, which consists of reporting New World Order conspiracy theories involving a particular group followed by criticisms by skeptics which debunks these conspiracy theories. However, some of it's content can and should be integrated in the original Freemasonry section of the article, while the paragraphs dealing with Masonic apologetics should be edited to remove statements that only apply to Anglo-American Freemasonry and replace them with statements that apply to both Anglo-American and Continental Freemasonry. Could this proposed compromise work for you? --Loremaster (talk) 03:15, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Masonic apologetics, that speaks volumes about Loremaster's soapbox. Lung salad (talk) 20:20, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Putting aside the fact that I'm neither pro-Mason nor anti-Mason, by “Masonic apologetics”, I am simply referring to the fact that the Freemasonry section of the article reports the most common accusations that Freemasons are involved in a New World Order conspiracy and the most common arguments some Freemasons use in response to these charges. That being said, you have avoided answering a question that could lead to a resolution of this dispute so I will ask it again: Could this proposed compromise work for you? --Loremaster (talk) 01:05, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that I don't think there are many statements that can apply to both forms of Freemasonry. They really are very different animals. Blueboar (talk) 17:18, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. For example, one could argue that, although some forms of Freemasonry are political, a totalitarian one-world government is inconsistent with Masonic principles, etc. So, an argument that takes into account the political activism of Continental Freemasonry can easily be applied to all forms of Freemasonry. --Loremaster (talk) 17:45, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that not all Freemasons would agree with your assertion that a totalitarian one-world government is inconsistent with Masonic principles (Masons disagree on just about everything... especially politics). Granted, it would probably cause yet another schism in Freemasonry, because lots of Freemasons would agree with you (including me)... but I could easily see it happening. Blueboar (talk) 18:53, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Ironically, that's exactly what the last paragraph of the Freemasonry section already says so we already have an argument that applies to all form of Freemasonry. That being said, when writing a Wikipedia article, the only thing that is important is reporting what notable Masonic writers have to say as well as what notable non-Masonic scholars have to say on the subject. The opinion of a non-notable Freemason doesn't matter even if it proves the point that not all Freemasons believe XYZ. --Loremaster (talk) 19:32, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Loremaster needs to do homework on Freemasonry, and not edit another article about it until caught up. Freemasonry is more than petty nonsense about symbolism on the Great Seal, etc Lung salad (talk) 20:17, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Putting aside the fact that many reliable sources state that symbolism on the Great Seal is a major obession of modern New World Order conspiracy theorists, you need to remember that this article is NOT about Freemasonry. It is about New World Order conspiracy theory. Therefore, this article contains a section dealing with New World Order conspiracy theories involving Freemasonry and criticisms of these theories by Freemasons and/or non-Masonic skeptics. Details about the nature and history of Freemasonry that is not directly connected to this specific focus is superfluous and should not be in this article. So, although I have done more research on Freemasonry than you can imagine, extensive knowledge of Freemasonry is not necessary for someone to contribute to this section. One only needs to find the most reliable sources on New World Order conspiracy theories involving Freemasonry and criticisms of these theories by Freemasons and/or non-Masonic skeptics. Nothing more. Nothing less. --Loremaster (talk) 01:05, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

The Judeo-Masonic Plot has no link with New World Order Conspiracy Theory! Lung salad (talk) 09:36, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Lung, are you being serious here, or sarcastic? There is definitely a link... In many ways the Judeo-Masonic Plot theory was a historical forerunner of the NWO theory (not the only forerunner, but a forerunner never the less). We can trace many of the claims that modern NWO theorists make about Freemasonry directly to claims made by Judeo-Masonic Plot theorists of the early 20th century. That said... the J-M Plot theory is not the same as the NWO theory. The two overlap in many places, but there are also differences and places where they don't overlap. Blueboar (talk) 14:17, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

So you do agree that where they DO overlap pertaining to NWO that should be mentioned within the article? The Protocols are after all mentioned in this article Lung salad (talk) 07:22, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes. That's never been an issue. The problem is the superfluous content you wanted to add and the clumsy way you add content even when it is good. So can we please get back to discussing the compromise I suggested? --Loremaster (talk) 13:09, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

No one is denying that many conspiracy theorists believe that a New World Order is the ultimate goal of the judeo-masonic conspiracy: Some (but not all) of the content you suggested dealing with French Freemasonry and anti-Masonic/anti-Semitic conspiracy theories is legitimate and should be added. The problem is the clumsy way you tried to do it. That's what I am objecting to. --Loremaster (talk) 11:30, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Freemasonry

P2

Franco Ferraresi seems to believe that P2 was political in nature in his book Threats to democracy: the radical right in Italy after the war, which was why it was disbanded by the government. Lung salad (talk) 09:46, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/P2 Lung salad (talk) 09:53, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

uh, who argued that P2 wasn't political? The Masonic researcher we are using as a source hasn't. I haven't. So what's your point? --Loremaster (talk) 11:25, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

A more important question... Does Ferraresi discuss P2's politics in connection with the NWO? If not, then his belief is irrelevant in the context of this article. Blueboar (talk) 14:36, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Who does mention P2's politics in relation to NWO? If anyone does, Ferrasesi can be used as a reliable source about the reality of P2. Lung salad (talk) 07:07, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Ferrasesi's position is based on primary source materials - not on paragraphs and paragraphs devoid of any footnotes. Lung salad (talk) 07:27, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Ok, but does Ferraresi discuss P2's politics in connection with the NWO? Can you provide a quote showing that he does? If he doesn't, he's not an appropriate source here, as making the link between what he says and what others say would violate WP:SYNTH --Nuujinn (talk) 11:21, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

For those who are confused by this non-sensical dispute, you need to know that the Freemasonry section of the article originally ended with the following sentence:

Ultimately, Freemasons argue that even if it were proven that influential individuals have used and are using Masonic Lodges to engage in crypto-politics, such as was the case with the illegal Italian Lodge Propaganda Due, this would represent a cooptation of Freemasonry rather than evidence of its hidden agenda.

Lung salad objected to the mention of P2 because he thinks that there should be no mention of Italian Freemasonry if the section focuses on Anglo-American Freemasonry. It's utterly ridiculous. Can we please get back to discussing the compromise I suggested? --Loremaster (talk) 13:23, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

The above quotation should contain citations. Lung salad (talk) 16:09, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Um... It did contain a citation ... to: Keown, Trevor W. (5 May 2004). "What was the P2 Lodge?". Anti-masonry Frequently Asked Questions. Grand Lodge of British Columbia and Yukon A.F. & A. M. ... GLBC&Y is certainly in the Anglo tradition, so I don't see what the problem is. Blueboar (talk) 16:25, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Since I'm not even arguing to restore the mention of P2 in the article that was deleted by Lung salad, I don't even understand why we are having this debate. --Loremaster (talk) 16:31, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

There seem to be no published debunkings in existence of P2 as a NWO "threat", so I guess that means David Icke must be "right" about that. Lung salad (talk) 16:39, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

What are you talking about? --Loremaster (talk) 16:48, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, please explain? Blueboar (talk) 16:51, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Can only include citations relevant to the subject matter, right? If there are no debunkings of P2 in context of NWO, there is nothing to cite. Lung salad (talk) 17:14, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Some anti-Masonic New World Order conspiracy theorists use P2 as proof that Freemasonry has a hidden political agenda (in constrast to an open politial agenda such as the Grand Orient of France lobbying for maintaining the seperation of church and state). The Masonic researcher we cited explained why P2 doesn't prove that at all. This is relevent information in this article even if he doesn't specifically mention the New World Order conspiracy theory itself in his debunking of P2. That being said, I'm not interested in restoring the mention of P2 since it was superfluous so this debate is pointless. --Loremaster (talk) 00:59, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I would agree. WP:Due weight plays a role here... even within the spectrum of NWO theorists there are some claims that are widely made, and some that are made by only one or two theorists. We should focus on the widely made ones and not really bother to mention the ones that are generally ignored by the bulk of theorists. A P2 connection to the NWO falls into the latter category. Compare this to the belief that the street plan of Washington DC contains hidden Masonic emblems ... that is something which most NWO theorists include. Blueboar (talk) 03:48, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree. However, the original mention of P2 in the article was very trivial. It was almost put between parantheses next to a “i.e.”. It's not like an entire paragraph was about claims surrounding P2. This is why I keep repeating that this huge debate about this is silly. --Loremaster (talk) 21:36, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Yup. Blueboar (talk) 21:43, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Margaret C. Jacob

The personal views of Margaret C. Jacob (who is a copycat author adding no original research to her books) should not dominate this article to the exclusion of material by Judith F. Stone, the Revue Maçonnique, M. L. McIsaac, or A. Hamon, H. Hamon Lung salad (talk) 07:17, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Although Margaret C. Jacob is a reliable source according to Wikipedia guidelines and therefore can be used regardless of your criticisms, the content based her a summary of her book that I added to the article was deleted in June so this rant of yours is pointless. Can we please get back to discussing the compromise I suggested? --Loremaster (talk) 13:04, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

The sources that I use are considered reliable sources by Wikipedia standards. The summary of Margaret C Jacob's book can be used but the article will not be confined to her opinions. There are other scholars in the world. Lung salad (talk) 16:06, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

No one has ever proposed confining the article to her opinions and no one is disputing the reliability of some of your sources! The problem is the revelance of the some of the content you want to add and the way in which you try to integrate this content into the article. Can we please get back to discussing the compromise I suggested? --Loremaster (talk) 16:28, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

We should not use Margaret Jacob, because she does not discuss Freemasonry in connection to the NWO conspiracy theory (either to make a conspiracy claim or to rebut one). Same with other historians that don't discuss Freemasonry in connection to the NWO conspiracy theory.

Please remember the purpose and focus of this article is... its purpose and focus is to explain to our readers a) what the NWO conspiracy theory is and how it developed, 2) what its proponents claim, and 3) what others say in reply to those claims. The focus must remain firmly within those three goals. A lot of the argument that seems to be going on about the various forms of Freemasonry seems extraneous to those three goals. Focus people... it's important. This is an article about the NWO theory... not an article about Freemasonry. So, this article is about a distinct set of claims and rebuttals to those claims. Blueboar (talk) 16:44, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Exactly. --Loremaster (talk) 16:51, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Except that the Judeo-Masonic plot existed out of the reality of organisations like Grand Orient de France where Freemasonry was involved with politics, and was the reason for the creation of this conspiracy theory. Lung salad (talk) 17:19, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

That may well be true... but our verifiability policy tells us that "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is Verifiability, not truth". We can't mention it in an article unless we have a source that mentions it (even if it is true). And the WP:No original research policy expands on that idea... saying we should not mention things in a specific article unless we have a source that directly connects it to the topic of the specific article... in this case, the NWO theory.

In other words, if we are going to say that organisations like Grand Orient de France were involved with politics, and this was the reason for the creation of this Judeo-Masonic conspiracy theory which is talked about by NWO theorist, what we need is a single source that makes all the connections you are making... one source that explicitly says that a) Masonic organizations like Grand Orient de France were involved with politics, and that b) this caused the creation of the theory that there exists a Judeo-Masonic plot and c) this became a sub-theory of the NWO theorists.

If even one link in this chain of logic is from your own thinking and understanding of the topic ... then its what WP:NOR calls a synthetic statement... we can't say it, even if the logic chain is accurate. Blueboar (talk) 19:09, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Exactly, and well said. --Nuujinn (talk) 19:23, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

I couldn't have said it better myself. --Loremaster (talk) 21:35, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Well written articles

Well written articles stand for nothing if what they contain is useless. Visitors to Wikipedia articles are not silly Lung salad (talk) 16:04, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Creating a new discussion thread simply to rant against the article is not productive. Please make specific proposals to improve the New World Order (conspiracy theory) article or keep your opinions to yourself. --Loremaster (talk) 16:35, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

That was my point about you. Lung salad (talk) 16:36, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

I have made a specific proposal but you refuse to discuss it. So let me repeat: The entire subsection should be deleted since it doesn't respect the logic of the Conspiracy theories section of the article, which consists of reporting New World Order conspiracy theories involving a particular group followed by criticisms by skeptics which debunks these conspiracy theories. However, some of it's content can and should be integrated in the original Freemasonry section of the article, while the paragraphs dealing with Masonic apologetics should be edited to remove statements that only apply to Anglo-American Freemasonry and replace them with statements that apply to both Anglo-American and Continental Freemasonry. Could this proposed compromise work for you? --Loremaster (talk) 16:46, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

And there were considerable faults in the original Freemasonry subsection that had no bearing at all to NWO. Lung salad (talk) 17:16, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Which parts? Blueboar (talk) 19:18, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Lung salad, I'm not sure what you are referring to exactly but I will say this: Even if you don't believe that, for example, the reverse side of the Great Seal of the United States has any bearing to a New World Order conspiracy, you need to know, understand, and accept that it has been documented that many many conspiracy theorists do. This is the reason why, for example, political scientist Michael Barkun put part of the Great Seal on the cover of his book A Culture of Conspiracy: Apocalyptic Visions in Contemporary America. --Loremaster (talk) 21:49, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Draft for a new Freemasonry section

In order to resolve this dispute, here is my first draft for a new Freemasonry section. I've put in bold the content that is new:

Freemasonry is one of the world's oldest secular fraternal organizations, which arose in late 16th- to early 17th-century Britain. Over the years a number of allegations and conspiracy theories have been directed towards Freemasonry, including the allegation that Freemasons are conspiring to bring about a New World Order, a world government organized according to Masonic principles and/or governed only by Freemasons.

The esoteric nature of Masonic symbolism and rites led to Freemasons being first accused of secretly practicing Satanism in the late 1700s. The original allegation of a conspiracy within Freemasonry to subvert religions and governments in order to take over the world traces back to Scottish author John Robison, whose reactionary conspiracy theories crossed the Atlantic, and during the 1800s influenced outbreaks of Protestant anti-Masonry in the United States. In the 1890s, French writer Léo Taxil wrote a series of pamphlets and books, denouncing Freemasonry, charging their lodges with worshiping Lucifer. Despite the fact that Taxil admitted that his claims were all a hoax, they were and are believed and repeated by numerous conspiracy theorists, and had a huge influence on subsequent anti-Masonic claims about Freemasonry.

While the Anglo-American Freemasons rigidly adhered to their rule that Freemasonry must not become involved in politics, Freemasons in the Grand Orient of France not only took part in political activity but went so far as to become closely involved with the Radical Party, a moderate political party of the center-left which became the most important party of the Third Republic of France at the end of the 19th century. French far-right agitators, such as Edouard Drumont and Henry Coston, accused the Grand Orient of France of being under the control of Jewish conspirators bent on world domination.

Some conspiracy theorists would eventually accuse some of the Founding Fathers of the United States, such as George Washington and Benjamin Franklin, of having Masonic designs interwoven into American society, particularly in the Great Seal of the United States, the United States one-dollar bill, the architecture of National Mall landmarks, and the streets and highways of Washington, D.C., as part of a grand conspiracy. Accordingly, colonial American Freemasons are portrayed as having embraced Bavarian Illuminism and used the power of the occult to bind their planning of a government in conformity with the plan of the "Masonic God" — Lucifer worshipped as the Supreme Being — because of their belief that the "Great Architect of the Universe" has tasked the United States with the eventual establishment of the "Kingdom of God on Earth" — a Masonic world theodemocracy with New Jerusalem as its capital city and the Third Temple as its holiest site — the initially utopian New World Order presided over by the Antichrist.

Freemasons rebut these claims of Masonic conspiracy. Freemasonry, which promotes rationalism, places no power in occult symbols themselves, and it is not a part of its principles to view the drawing of symbols, no matter how large, as an act of consolidating or controlling power. Furthermore, there is no published information establishing the Masonic membership of the men responsible for the design of the Great Seal. The Latin phrase "novus ordo seclorum", appearing on the reverse side of the Great Seal since 1782 and on the back of the one-dollar bill since 1935, means "New Order of the Ages" and only alludes to the beginning of an era where the United States is an independent nation-state, but is often mistranslated by conspiracy theorists as "New Secular Order" or "New World Order". Lastly, Freemasons argue that, despite the symbolic importance of the Temple of Solomon in their mythology, they have no interest in rebuilding it, especially since "it is obvious that any attempt to interfere with the present condition of things [on the Temple Mount] would in all probability bring about the greatest religious war the world has ever known".

More broadly, Freemasons argue that the accusation that Freemasonry has a hidden agenda to establish a Masonic government ignores several facts. While agreeing on certain Masonic Landmarks, the many independent and sovereign Grand Lodges act as such, and do not agree on many other points of belief and practice. Also, as can be seen from a survey of famous Freemasons, individual Freemasons hold beliefs that span the spectrum of politics. The term "Masonic government" has no meaning since individual Freemasons hold many different opinions on what constitutes a good government.

What do you all think? --Loremaster (talk) 15:56, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Can I assume that all this can be properly sourced, and that those sources discuss these points within the context of discussing something to do with the NWO directly? If not it's probably synthetic OR. Blueboar (talk) 20:28, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Lung salad claims he has such sources. So the ball is in his court... --Loremaster (talk) 20:39, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Compromise?

Compromise is a word some editors fail to understand Lung salad (talk) 20:07, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Instead of making snide remarks, can you PLEASE discuss my proposal above? If not, you are making it hard for us to assume your good faith... --Loremaster (talk) 20:15, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Loremaster, while I admire your desire to reach a compromise, I would say that until reliable secondary sources are presented which directly support the assertions Lung Salad wants to add, there's nothing really to discuss. --Nuujinn (talk) 22:16, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

OK. Well, if that is the case, the article should be unlocked immediately so that we can delete the content he added (which he is free to restore once he provided reliable sources to support some of his claims) and resume improving the article. --Loremaster (talk) 14:38, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Feel free to make the change, I believe the lock has expired. --Nuujinn (talk) 18:01, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Oh I see. Well, can someone intervene if Lung salad starts edit warring? --Loremaster (talk) 18:52, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

I think there are enough eyes here that we can manage to discuss the issues if there are any objections. Sources should be presented to support assertions, and if we keep a level head, there's no need for edit warring (which takes more than one party). We can also ask for additional help at an appropriate notice board if need be. --Nuujinn (talk) 18:59, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Good. --Loremaster (talk) 19:02, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

USS Liberty

I suggest adding/amending the "USS Liberty incident" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident to this article if/where appropriate. Of course a consensus will probably need to be met to determine if such fits in as evidence/information of the NWO conspiracy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.33.106.13 (talk) 17:59, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

The issue isn't even one of consensus but of reliable sources. You need to find a notable mainstream journalist or scholar who explicitly states that some conspiracy theorists link the USS Liberty incident to the alleged New World Order conspiracy. --Loremaster (talk) 23:31, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Jimmy Wales

a page without a lie is a nonexist — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.111.104.63 (talk) 18:14, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Please note that this talk page is intended for discussions about how to improve the article. Edits attempting to call out Jimmy Wales or allege that the article contains lies are not particularly constructive. Perhaps you should point out to us which excerpts of the article you feel are poorly sourced or inaccurate? Then we can address your specific concerns with the article. John Shandy` • talk 18:26, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Honestly, we could have just removed this under WP:DENY and issued a uw-socialnetwork warning. This fellow's post goes along with the sort of M.O. for unconstructive true believers or trolls imitating such individuals. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:16, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Ian. --Loremaster (talk) 23:33, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Notable 'futurists" claim that a global socialist police state is inevitable

Should this be added?