Talk:Carlos Hathcock

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The Apache and The Cobra

Shouldn't these 2 NVA snipers itleast be mentioned among his kills after all they were quite known The Apache had her own Sniper Unit and The Cobra before gettin shot in his eyeball came closes to killin him —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.94.173.73 (talk) 04:26, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree. By killing the Apache, Hathcock made his first major contribution to the war by taking out the one person the Marines on Hill 55 feared most at the time of the inception of 1st Marine Division's sniper school. For more info, read chapters 7-9 of Marine Sniper. However, I still need info that the sniper that Hathcock killed by shooting him through the scope was, in fact, the Cobra. Marine Sniper does not mention his name at all, just the info on the engagement. Lordhood117 (talk) 21:47, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

The stub Apache (Viet Cong soldier) has been created.--Ønography (talk) 19:14, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

How to reference this interview about "Apache"?

If I want to reference what is said at this link,[1] (at 4 minutes and 20 seconds) then what would should I write? What is the "name of this interview"?--Ønography (talk) 20:57, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Many Wiki editors stay away from YouTube for reasons outlined here (yes, there's even a policy for this). If I were to cite an interview like this, I might say something like, "As Mr. X said in an interview on [date]" and add a ref., but be prepared to have it challenged. Maybe. --Seduisant (talk) 00:51, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

The video is an excerpt from John Plaster's interviews with him. The interviews were in both the Ultimate Sniper video as well as Marine Sniper:Carlos Hathcock.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 04:45, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Why?

Why is it that Hathcock has so caught the interest of people? He isn't the sniper out there with the highest tally, by far. He doesn't even have the highest tally among US snipers in VIETNAM...but still, he is the one everyone talk about or refer to. 85.230.45.221 (talk) 19:42, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Probably because he was mentioned first and was known as the Top Sniper for so long. I remember reading Henderson's book about him 25 years ago, he was the Guest of Honor at my first Marine Corps Ball, and when Ward's book came out listing Chuck with more confirmed kills, I (and many others) thought it was a typo. That and his legacy to the USMC Sniper community with establishing the first non-wartime Scout/Sniper school gave him his fame.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 21:12, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Mentioned first by who? I can see him aiding in the Scout/Sniper school being relevant...but, everyone always refer to those 93 confirmed kills...Simo Häyhä had over 500. In less than 100 days, in temperatures rainging from -20 to -40 C, using a rifle without a scope. And for some reason, this man is barely even talked about. I'm not disparaging Hathcock, but by comparison, Häyhä should be a GOD to snipers... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.230.47.111 (talk) 23:43, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Charles Henderson's book in 1986, for one. Yes, there have been other stories of other Snipers, but for whatever reason, Hathcock's was the most compelling and for lack of a better term, complete. From the "record of 93" (which we now know was bested while he was still active) to his injuries saving the other Marines, to using the .50 BMG and the book coming out at a time when there was an audience for it. Hathcock was a legend in the Corps and there was and has been more coverage of Hathcock than just about any other Sniper in the US press/media ever since. Not only were the books about his career, but about his early life and even his legacy. It's a bit like the controversy over the radio, Tesla may have come up with it first, but Marconi gets the credit. I can look at other articles on wiki and make similar arguments, often the difference between coverage of two topics in the same vein is the amount of significant and reliable sources of one over another.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 19:08, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Exact distance of record shot

There's a continuity problem in the article regarding the distance of Carlos' record shot: the "Marine Corps career" section places the distance of the shot at 2,286 yards, while the "Legacy" section (and almost every other reference to the shot) reads 2,286 meters. However, both figures seem to be sourced, so I theorize that someone simply typed the wrong unit. Having no access to any of these sources, I humbly request that someone who does please determine the appropriate unit and edit the page accordingly. jfoldmei (talk) 20:49, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Sources:Sasser, Henderson(both books), and Leatherneck magazine state 2500 yards Here's a link to one[2]. 2286 would be accurate for meters. My suggestion would be to list as 2500 yards with the conversion to meters following, just reverse the template.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 20:56, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Carlos Hathcock

(moved from Berean Hunter's talk page)

Carlos Hathcock CLAIMED he shot through a scope, where is the actual evidence? The references are just his word!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.32.147.4 (talk) 04:22, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

He had 93 confirmed kills - referenced. It isn't up to you to criticize based on your opinion. You need reliable sources...and more importantly, you should be using the talk page to form a consensus.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 04:25, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

He might have had 93 confirmed kills, but that does not change that the facts of this kill are in question. It was his CLAIM with no other evidence!!! Prove me wrong, please where is the evidence that he shot down a scope (not just his or his spotters word). physics theory shows it is imposible and practical experiemnts (at closer range) have shown that is it probably impossible. So excuse me for trusting evedience over somebodies word. You know a CLAIM!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.32.147.4 (talk) 04:33, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Are you referring to the Mythbusters episode? That is just a claim. Why are you willing to accept that as gospel? How many ballistics charts have you analyzed? As I have asked you, what are the reliable sources that you cite? Mythbusters said that his shot was possible.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 04:39, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

I am not talking about Mythbusters first of all and even if I was, that does not change the fact physics does not support his claim when comparing angle of barrel and scope. If we say that a bullet can go straight down a scope given perfect angle to the scope, then it would mean that the enemies scope would not have been zeroed on him and his other claim that he is only alive becuase his reflexes were faster at that moment. Both claims cannot be true. Still you have not given any evidence that it is more than a just a claim. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" Carl Sagan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.32.147.4 (talk) 04:59, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

It is you who will need the sources to support your claim. The article should reflect what is published in reliable sources.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 05:06, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

But the published "reliable" sources are his claim, not fact!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.32.147.4 (talk) 05:14, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

On this particular kill where he shot through the scope, he and his spotter Lance Corporal John Burke recovered the weapon. It was properly tagged and cataloged and eventually found its way into the Marine Corp. Museum at Quantico Virginia and is in the exact condition it was in when recovered by Hathcock and Burke. Also in the museum is the actual rifle Hathcock used on his first tour during 1967. The shot did take place and happened exactly as Hathcock and Burke described it in their after action reports. The reports are on record in the National Archives. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.84.151.42 (talk) 00:45, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Not to disparage Hathcock, I don't know, and in all honesty, don't CARE wether he took that shot or not...but, the text of the article ALSO states that that rifle was later stolen...which means that there is, still, no evidence, however nebolous, that he did what is claimed. There is no proof beyond his, and his spotters, word.85.230.47.111 (talk) 23:33, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Which is far better than the rant of some random no-account IP. If you have sources which state your criticisms then bring them forth...otherwise, there is no reason to accept your babbling.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 01:44, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

The division in which he served while at Hill 55: more info?

The following quote indicates that he served in "first division". In what article on wikipedia, would I likely be able to find the most information about the division in which he served while at Hill 55?

"She" ... "had her own sniper platoon down there, and I think they were out to get all my snipers — everybody. And she had been there, 'cause we took over from third division, and she had been there when the first division took over, and she just continued to march — she had been torturing a lot of people prior to us getting there. --Ønography (talk) 13:50, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

First Marine Division, but that really doesn't tell you much. 1st MARDIV at that time was close to 20,000 men strong and included a number of Brigades, Regiments, etc. Do you actually have any copies of these books? It's all laid out in there, including the regiment, etc. The same area is referenced in Sasser's The Walking Dead about my "Alma Mater" 1st Battalion 9th Marines.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 16:21, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

his son is C.H. III, but he's not a Jr?

His name is Carlos Hathcock (no middle name given), but his son's name is given as Carlos Norman Hathcock III. Is this a mistake; should one of them be named Junior?