Talk:Kwanzaa

Etymology not correct

"The name Kwanzaa derives from the Swahili phrase "matunda ya kwanza", meaning "first fruits"." - This statement should not stand. It is correct that the name is claimed to come from this phrase. But I am not familiar with any concept of "first fruits" in Swahili language or in East Africa. There is in the lands of the Waswahili no season without fruits (like in the northern hemisphere) thus the idea of "first fruits" cannot come from Swahili language. Besides there is no way to make a "kwanzaa" from the word "kwanza" (=first) in Kiswahili Language. --Kipala (talk) 19:03, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

You are wrong beyond recognition. The concept of "first fruits" exist in every single agricultural society in human history. Come on my man, that is common sense. The Waswahili are Bantu people and the vast majority of them, just like the vast majority of all other Bantu people have been agriculturalist since the beginning of time and are still until today. The word is malimbuko, this word literally means first fruits.

Again, every single agriculturally based society (that is every single human society that lived on other than cows blood and milk-pastoralist-or berries, fruits, and rodents-hunter gathers-) every single one of these societies have first fruit festivals on the calender as a ritual of renew. This is so common sense its amazing you would say there isn't a word for first fruits in Kiswahili. If your people planted food (and that is the majority of humans who ever lived), than you have a word for first fruits, this even goes into your religion, like the resurrection and sometimes combines with religion like Mardi Grai and Carnival.

So, please show more intellectual curiosity. But this is besides the point. Kargenga can call his festival what ever he wants. That is what is known is making history, as opposed to those who sit on the sidelines and provide commentary. All culture is a reinvention and adaption of a previous one. Again, all culture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mavinga (talk • contribs) 18:15, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Those are interesting observations. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that indeed this is all bogus, as you suggest. However, as presented above this is what WP calls "original research" or "original synthesis". I don't mean to dismiss it; rather, you may wish to pursue assertions of it within reliable sources. After all, it's imaginable that a phrase whose literal meaning is something like "first fruits" is used metaphorically, or in reference to one or more particular fruits, etc etc. As for "kwanzaa" [double "a"], is there any leeway for idiosyncratic orthography? (To take an example from Japanese, the word ジャーナル might be written within English as "journal", "janaru", "jānaru", "jya-naru", "zyânaru", "jaanaru", etc.) -- Hoary (talk) 01:15, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

The problem with that comparison is that KiSwahili is written with Latin alphabet, and as such there is no transliteration. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.229.17.103 (talk) 16:02, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Uups I did not look into this discussion for a while.

1. About first fruits (User:Mavinga): your claim looks indeed like an interesting but unsubstantiated orignal research. No, there will hardly be any "first fruits" if we talk about a tropical climate where you have fruits all year round. In East Africa, where Kiswahili is at home, you have the coast (this is Swahililand proper as the name of the language says "Swahili" = Arabic "sawahil" = coast) where fruits grow all year round. Upcountry you have dry and rainy season (s) (some areas 2 rainy seasons) so you have a season of field crops; then still "fruit" comes at different times of the year depending on type of tree and local climate (mangos abundantly in the dry season, more toward its end) - cf [http://www.responsibleagroinvestment.org/rai/sites/responsibleagroinvestment.org/files/FAO_Value%20chain%20Analysis_Kenya%20Case.pdf this FAO-study if you like something to refer to - I see interestingly that in two directly neighbouring areas like Lamu and Tanu River Delta the main harvest periods of 2 annual periods for mango- are different!). Coconut you get all year round. That is very mch different from colder areas where you have a dormant vegetation for some months without any harvest.
2. About "kwanzaa" [double "a"] idiosyncratic orthography (user:Hoary): No, there is no leeway as Swahili has been written with Latin script for more than a century. Kwanzaa is obviously an external neologism created by Karenga in the USA combining "kwanza" (=first) and the verb "zaa" (to procreate, produce). I never met an Swahili speaker who understood this if he was not first given an explanation of this American custom. Reminds me of the German "handy" (for a mobile phone) - this looks English (more so than Kwanzaa looks Swahili) but it is just "Denglish" (Deutsch-English).
3. About freedom of inventing customs ("Kargenga can call his festival what ever he wants") - sure! Then still the claim that this is a Swahili word is just made up. Kipala (talk) 18:54, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Reliable source

Is this article by Ann Coulter, really a reliable source?VR _talk 05:14, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

An article by Coulter is a reliable source for the thinking of Coulter, that's all. -- Hoary (talk) 05:32, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Hoary, you're right if you mean we can use it as a source for Coulter's views on Kwanzaa at Coulter's own article (i.e. Ann Coulter). This is because WP:SELFPUB says "Self-published ... sources may be used as sources of information about themselves..." This article is about Kwanzaa, not Ann Coulter. Therefore the sources used here should be about Kwanzaa, and have expertise in African-American culture and heritage etc.VR _talk 04:04, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

SELFPUB seems irrelevant here. Some person other than Coulter seems to be publishing Coulter. (On the other hand I'm no expert in far-right US websites; perhaps this really is Coulter who is publishing Coulter.) But yes, the article is about Kwanzaa, not Coulter, and Coulter does not seem either to be well-informed about Kwanzaa or to approach it with intelligent open-mindedness. If opinions about Kwanzaa among the hard right themselves become significant, then I suppose that some material such as this can be cited as examples. -- Hoary (talk) 05:55, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

No it is not because she is a loud mouth and has no serious content to add. it should not be here, she knows Nada about Kwanzaa, did not study the subject, is not African-American. only thing she is is notorious. Since when did notorious = thinker.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 06:49, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't think the fact that she's not African American matters at all. And in the US I thought that expressing strong if unsupported opinions and outshouting your opponents in TV "discussions" was the prime way to become a quotable "pundit". But you're right about the rest. -- Hoary (talk) 05:55, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

The entire passage that states "Moreover, there has always been an element of American society, from conservative political commentators to academics, who feel that Kwanzaa is simply a 'made up' holiday." is entirely pointless. The article CLEARLY states how the holiday was created in the late 60's, and is well sourced. This is a F-A-C-T, so it seems like subtle race-baiting to attempt to place such criticisms at the feet of "conservative political commentators to academics." The facts speak for themselves, do they not? Ynot4tony2 (talk) 19:30, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, and Mother's Day, Thanksgiving, Valetine's Day, and others are also made up holidays--every holiday has some point of origin. Festivas for the rest of us. --Nuujinn (talk) 01:04, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Does that mean we should just strike the pointless passage? Ynot4tony2 (talk) 02:14, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I would be bold, but if anyone objects, we should take time to discuss it. The two sources for that phrase are clearly not neutral, and I see no value in the statement myself, but others may differ. --Nuujinn (talk) 02:20, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

I personally see this whole "made up" statement not to mean that the celebration doesn't exist but is a day with no traditional, cultural or religious origin, it was "made up" in the 60's, to legitimise the struggle of the black people of America who were attempting to get in touch with their heritage. This is good in that for those who celebrate it, it has created from the a unifying culture in America and internationally (on a small scale), but has no ancient inspiration. In the same vein Meat Day is a day celebrated by myself, but was "made up" last year. of course I could be wrong, I don;t think anyone can acctually say what was meant by that statement, it seems rather ambiguous to me.--124.171.201.191 (talk) 15:41, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Why in Gawd's name is this talk page so long?

Why are people so fascinated with this holiday that is celebrated by a few million people? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.12.31.9 (talk) 19:18, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

It's 34kB long, which is not so very long for the talk page of an article. I can guess at the reasons for the popular fascination with this holiday but I have no hard evidence. -- Hoary (talk) 02:52, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Futurama...--124.171.201.191 (talk) 15:32, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Popularity section issues

In the Popularity section, the article states:

and now between half and two million people celebrate Kwanzaa in the US, or between one and five percent of African Americans. Mayes adds that white institutions now celebrate it.

Two issues with this. The first is that the US population is currently around 300 million (http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html). This means that 1/2 to 2 million people is less than one percent, not 1 to 5 reported. I would correct it, but the second problem is that the link gives a 404 (http://www.buffalonews.com/260/story/897568.html).

Catherguy (talk) 13:33, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Never mind. I misread it. "1-5 percent of African Americans" not of Americans. Still, it'd be nice to fix that citation.

Catherguy (talk) 21:44, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

If this is November...

it must be Kwanzaa-protection time. Semi-protected until the season passes. Twerps. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 22:23, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Aw, the children who want to vandalize the article have decided to vandalize the talk page since the main page is semi-protected. Twerps. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 16:37, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

LOL It is that most wonderful time of year when Editor protection comes out in full. Another year. Happy Kwanzaa. Also the good Dr. Maulana Karenga article will need a tab bit as well.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 05:22, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 11 December 2011

Ujamaa is for cooperative economics not family.

Senecavaught (talk) 20:09, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. I put back what was there until recently. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 04:33, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

just wondering =

why is there no information about how this holiday was created by a former member of the black panthers? His intentions were purely racist, even if that isn't what Kwanzaa means today. This is an encyclopedia of truth, not selective knowledge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.73.88.73 (talk) 18:43, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

The article says who created the holiday. You can read about him in the article on him. Do you have a reliable source for your claim that his intentions were purely racist? If so, let's see it. -- Hoary (talk) 06:16, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

"Further reading"

The article tells us of "further reading".

• A program to raise the faith level in African-American children through Scripture, Kwanzaa principles, and culture, Janette Elizabeth Chandler Kotey, DMin, Oral Roberts University,1999
• The US Organization: African American cultural nationalism in the era of Black Power, 1965 to the 1970s, Scot D. Brown, PhD, Cornell University, 1999
• Rituals of race, ceremonies of culture: Kwanzaa and the making of a Black Power holiday in the United States,1966—2000, Keith Alexander Mayes, PhD, Princeton University, 2002
• Interview: Kwanzaa creator Ron Karenga discusses the evolution of the holiday and its meaning in 2004, conducted by Tony Cox. Tavis Smiley (NPR), 26 December 2003
• Tolerance in the News: Kwanzaa: A threat to Christmas? By Camille Jackson | Staff Writer, Tolerance.org, 22 December 2005

I understand what the last one is, as there's a link to it. The last but one appears to be a radio program aired seven years ago: how should one read that? As for the others, I don't know what they are. Ideas? -- Hoary (talk) 06:16, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I was bold. -- Hoary (talk) 06:54, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Hah! Not bold enough. I'd guessed that Mayes' Rituals would be a book published by Princeton UP. Wrong: it's an unpublished PhD dissertation. Well, it's absurd to tell the readership of WP to read an unpublished PhD dissertation, so I removed the recommendation to read it. (No offense intended to Dr Mayes, who may have generated published articles or even a book from it.) -- Hoary (talk) 07:11, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Personal opinions

I think the holiday is a joke, given its founder's reputation as well as his conflicting statements about whether it should be celebrated instead of Christmas. However, since those statements are included in the article, I have no problem with leaving it as is. Comments by Ann Coulter and others probably reflect opinions stemming from political leanings and are not encyclopedic—unless they are themselves inherently a topic of encyclopedic interest. 66.234.204.13 (talk) 20:07, 24 December 2011 (UTC)