Talk:Masturbation

Edit request on 30 November 2011

The fifth paragraph in the "Benefits" section is in the <pre> style. The space should be removed between the end of the {{cquote}} and the sentence that starts with "That is" or the sentence should start a new paragraph. 66.158.157.155 (talk) 05:18, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Done. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 11:01, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Bible and masturbation

I think it is clear for any thinking person that the act described by the Bible is actually coitus interruptus, not masturbation. The reference from Coogan was required by WP:VER, but he is very far from being the only one who thinks so, in fact he expresses the consensus. There's not much to doubt about that, so it is not a matter of what "some modern scholars" believe, but a matter of reading and comprehending your own Bible translation. This is a factual claim, not an opinion; Coogan states it as a fact, not as an interpretation. The Bible does not use the word masturbation or any other synonym of it or any expression which could mean it, in fact there is not a single Bible verse mentioning masturbation or describing the act of masturbating. It is only a matter of using the proper English words for what the text says. If some have used their own imagination to guess that the Bible referred to masturbation, this is simply what their imagination has added to the clear text. I saw old porn films wherein actors were cumming before the camera without masturbating, so it is physically possible to commit coitus interruptus without masturbating. In fact, thinking that Onan's story refers to masturbation is a gross error of misinterpreting a written text. No matter what theologians had to say on this issue in the past, they were not using the text of the Bible but they were speaking as theologians, not as interpreters of the written text. Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:24, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Confirmed by a Catholic tract declared error-free by a book censor and approved by a bishop at [1]. See also J. Harold Ellens, Sex in the Bible: a new consideration, p. 48 at [2]. Also confirmed at [3]. Epiphanius of Salamis agrees according to John M. Riddle, Contraception and abortion from the ancient world to the Renaissance, p. 4 at [4]. Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:33, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Per WP:SUMMARY and WP:SPINOUT, when the section Masturbation#Religious views became quite large, it was split out and became an entire article at Religious views on masturbation. I haven't personally helped to develop and maintain that article, but I suspect that the level of detail you are discussing may be better placed there, where I'm sure you'll also find other knowledgeable and enthusiastic editors with whom to discuss the details. As with other sections whose main content has been spun out in this way, we link the {{main}} article, and need to keep the remaining summary in this article short so that this article remains a manageable size. For this reason, I have just moved some detailed material from this article to Talk:Religious views on masturbation#Material from top-level article --Nigelj (talk) 20:53, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Autoeroticism and mutual masturbation in the lede

At 01:07 we had

A. Masturbation is a common form of autoeroticism. Masturbation with a partner, called mutual masturbation, is also common. Masturbation is usually performed in order to experience sexual pleasure or orgasm, though many use it as an alternative to sexual intercourse with no risk or extremely low risk of contracting sexually transmitted diseases.

At 08:17 79... changed this to

B. Masturbation is a common form of autoeroticism. Masturbation is usually performed in order to experience sexual pleasure or orgasm in the absence of a partner, though some use it as an alternative to sexual intercourse with no risk or extremely low risk of contracting sexually transmitted diseases. Masturbation with a partner is called mutual masturbation.

By 09:45 Dionisia Bekri had changed it to

C. Masturbation is a common form of autoeroticism. Masturbation is usually performed in order to experience sexual pleasure or orgasm in the absence of a partner, though many use it as a means to avoid pregnancy (coitus interruptus) or as an alternative to sexual intercourse with no risk or extremely low risk of contracting sexually transmitted diseases. Masturbation with a partner is called mutual masturbation.

At 13:57 Lost on belmont changed it to

D. Masturbation is a common form of autoeroticism and is usually performed in order to experience sexual pleasure or orgasm in the absence of a partner. The act when performed with a partner is called mutual masturbation and can be used as a means to avoid pregnancy or as an alternative to sexual intercourse as it poses little to no risk of contracting sexually transmitted diseases.

Since then, 79... has changed it back to C, and I have changed it back to D.

Now, these sentences are uncited here in the WP:LEDE. Therefore, either they must not be challengeable (WP:V says, "any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation"), or they must be a summary of something that is covered in more detail and is fully cited elsewhere in the article. The only citations in the section Masturbation#Mutual masturbation are [5] and [6].

What are we trying to say here? I propose that the main points are

1. to introduce and distinguish the terms autoeroticism and mutual masturbation
2. to define the former, solo masturbation, as "performed in order to experience sexual pleasure or orgasm in the absence of a partner"
3. to state that the latter, masturbation with a partner, is "a means to avoid pregnancy or an alternative to sexual intercourse with no risk or extremely low risk of contracting sexually transmitted diseases"

We must remember gay couples of both genders, the old, the young, the able-bodied and not, the married, unmarried and the casual. I think one of the points we are not making is that solitary masturbation also avoids pregnancy and STDs - that may be true but is so obvious it doesn't really need a place in the lede. So which is the best version? --Nigelj (talk) 22:54, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

As the one who wrote version D, I am clearly in favor of it. I rewrote it that way to combine sentences that were clunky on their own, avoid the use of the word "masturbation" to start off multiple sentences in the same paragraph, and to reword "no risk or extremely low risk" to flow better. Since the lede has been restored to version D, it has been edited again, and then had the "benefits" section removed entirely. I've put it to a modified form of version D (without the benefits), but I believe the reasons for/why should appear in the lede as in version D and possibly expanded. Lost on Belmont (talk) 14:30, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Because this matter is still being edited over I'm going to discuss the new changes here to avoid an Edit War.

We have two versions being swapped

Masturbation refers to sexual stimulation of a person's own genitals, usually to the point of orgasm. The stimulation can be performed manually, by use of objects or tools, or by some combination of these methods. Masturbation is a common form of autoeroticism and is usually performed in order to experience sexual pleasure or orgasm in the absence of a partner. Masturbation with a partner, called mutual masturbation, is also common and can be used as an alternative to sexual intercourse.

vs.

Masturbation refers to sexual stimulation of a person's own genitals, usually to the point of orgasm. The stimulation can be performed manually, by use of objects or tools, or by some combination of these methods. Masturbation is a common form of autoeroticism and is usually performed in order to experience sexual pleasure or orgasm in the absence of a partner. The act when performed with a partner is called mutual masturbation and can be used as can be used as an alternative to sexual intercourse.

In the first case, the main points against are the fact that the word "masturbation" is used to open sentences 1, 2, and 4, which is, stylistically, not good writing. Another issue is the phrase "is also common," which we don't have a cite for. (If we can get one, great! Otherwise this needs to remain unsaid.)

In the second case, the argument against is the use of the word "performed," which appears in sentences 2, 3, and 4.

I'll argue that "performed" isn't as glaring because it occurs in various points in each sentence, and that all we do is change the word "performed" in one or two cases to synonyms.

How about: Masturbation refers to sexual stimulation of a person's own genitals, usually to the point of orgasm. The stimulation can be achieved manually, by use of objects or tools, or by some combination of these methods. Masturbation is a common form of autoeroticism and is usually done in order to experience sexual pleasure or orgasm in the absence of a partner. The act when performed with a partner is called mutual masturbation and can be used as can be used as an alternative to sexual intercourse. Lost on Belmont (talk) 01:24, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

It turns out that the Dionisia Bekri username and several IP addresses in the 79.107.x.y range were being used by a well-known disruptive user. (see Talk:Non-penetrative sex#Dry humping: Same meaning as NPS or just a type of NPS?, User:Dionisia Bekri, Special:Contributions/79.107.9.21, etc) This makes some of the above discussion, and some recent edits to the article, relatively meaningless. I have tried to simplify the relevant text and tidy up the lede. --Nigelj (talk) 20:33, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Defining mutual

I would be happy for some feedback about the following two constructs for introducing the concept of mutual masturbation in the lede:

A: With a partner, mutual masturbation can be an alternative to sexual intercourse.

B: The act, when performed with a partner, is called mutual masturbation and can be used as an alternative to sexual intercourse.

Is the ordinary English meaning of the word mutual clear enough that we do not need that level of definition, as a term-of-art, of mutual masturbation? --Nigelj (talk) 14:37, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

It would seem logical, but as this is an encyclopedia, we need to clearly define topics even if they seem a bit obvious. Consider that we define masturbation. The "ordinary English definition" of masturbation (not any secondary definitions) is pretty clear, but we still define what the topic is in the lede. Lost on Belmont (talk) 19:40, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

risk of increased withdrawal from society?

seems possible that some naturally shy people would be further isolated if they choose to masturbate themselves instead of attempting intercourse? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.154.255.43 (talk) 08:14, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

WP:NOT#FORUM. Tgeorgescu (talk) 17:47, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Definition of masturbation

The current text is: "Masturbation refers to the sexual stimulation of a person's genitals..." when it should be: "Masturbation refers to the sexual stimulation of a person's OWN genitals...". Masturbation is stimulating oneself; stimulating another person is sex, not masturbation! Giving a handjob is non-penetrative sex, not masturbation! Please correct this important detail. 91.140.59.95 (talk) 16:14, 12 February 2012 (UTC)